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Never again
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Never again |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan 
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“Never again.” I’ve noticed that commingled with commemorations have been ominous remarks about Israel itself, in the absence of satisfactory action on the part of the United States, (it hardly can expect any from the UN), strategically attacking sites in Iran critical to that country’s nuclear weapons program. By virtue of an earlier thread that was titled by no more than a literal translation from a banner draped on a missile paraded in Tehran, you are acquainted with the lethal attitude the regime in Iran has toward Israel. It can be said that an, by all accounts, unpopular and repressive regime is attempting to sustain and gather support for itself by again focusing hatred on the Jews. The Jews, mindful of history, unwilling to rely on the kindness of others, now have apparently been sending intimations that they will not long be idle in the face of Iran’s growing threat to their existence. What is your response to that very real possibility? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Prayer. For their success in defending themselves and for their protection against the hatred and agression directed at them. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
as an aside,slightly off topic. at what point in history will we condemn zionist hatred and aggression against the palestineans? anti-semetism is alive and well, but it would do people good to remember that 'semite' doesn't mean jew exclusively. the semetic peoples include arabs and that said, yes, anti-semitism is at a high. both sides are being vilified, feeding the cycle as the west refuses to acknowledge the truths about the middle-east. again i direct you to writers like uri avenry, noam chomsky. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Raphael, And what about the question asked in the topic? |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
i think it's insane and all hell will break lose if it happens. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Well, now we’re back to the guy with the gun scenario, only it is known he is getting a gun, he has expressed his intentions. You may want to wait until you know with certainty he is pointing it at you; of course by that time there will be no time if and when he pulls the trigger; all you can do is die, maybe firing your own gun for the satisfaction of taking him with you; however dying may be perfectly acceptable, even desirable, to him. If you were Jewish, with the Holocaust in your history, what would you do? |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
well, if it were in my history, i wouldn't turn around and subjugate another race. quote: except this isn't a one on one battle for your life, millions of lives hang in the balance and im sorry to say, humanity means more than political/ideological grievances. just what do you think will happen if israel attacks iran? certainly you don't think it's a regional spat? its a catylst for a global war. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
"global war" Who would fight it? I can't imagine France, Germany, Russia, China, taking up arms for either side. The United States? I wouldn't favor it; there would be little or no support. P.S. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4208809.stm Another sign. [This message has been edited by Huan Yi (01-26-2005 01:51 PM).] |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
If it does go to that extreme, it would be global. Sure, it may start small, or comparitively, with Arab nations once again going against Israel, but it could very quickly escalate pulling Europe, kicking and screaming, into the morass. Reason? High Muslim populations, high Jewish populations. And if the fans are flamed, as I've no doubt they would be, America would be dragged in as well thanks to networks like Al-Jezeera and radical ultra-conservative imans. And like it or not, most of the world's oil comes from the Middle East, not just for the US or China, but for Europe as well. Judging from history, the US will get blamed, just like they did with Somalia, though that was a UN peacekeeping effort, and Saddam's atrocities after the Gulf War of 91. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Alicat, “but it could very quickly escalate pulling Europe, kicking and screaming, into the morass. Reason? High Muslim populations, high Jewish populations.” A series of religious civil wars? There aren’t that many Jews left in Europe. “And if the fans are flamed, as I've no doubt they would be, America would be dragged in as well thanks to networks like Al-Jezeera and radical ultra-conservative imans.” Please explain. I don’t see the United States going to war for oil, not with its own sources and Russia’s available. It would be pretty hard to sell; young men and women being killed to keep SUVs topped off. I just remembered, there was a survey done decades ago that found that only 20% of Americans would favor going to war for Israel’s sake. I very much doubt that figure has increased since. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
It's not just about Israel, Iran, and oil. Factors, yes, but not the totality. I have no illusions that if widespread armed conflict erupted throughout the Middle East, it would boil over into Europe, which really isn't that far from there, Africa, with large Muslim populations, Southeast Asia, with again large Muslim populations and those wanting seperatists governements, Asia with hostilities between China and Taiwan, and North Korea with just about everyone out there. All it would take for a general bruhaha of massive proportions is one domino ticking into another, starting the chain reaction. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
“Asia with hostilities between China and Taiwan, and North Korea” I don’t see why they would allow themselves to become involved in what essentially would be a religious war. “it would boil over into Europe” Well, you are talking religious war there. They’re used to that. But it would be a hard sell in the U.S., because involvement would almost certainly mean a religious war here, and frankly I don’t think any, Christians at least, are that eager to go, even to Heaven. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
I can't imagine France, Germany, Russia, China, taking up arms for either side. As Alicat stated, high Muslim and Jewish populations. Huan, I'm not sure where you get the notion there aren't many Jews left in Europe. The United States? I wouldn't favor it; there would be little or no support. You honestly think Israel's closest ally and supporter wouldn't join the battle, especially with Iran high on their target list anyway? btw Iraq wasn't exactly an easy sell for everyone. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Raphael, If Bush had come to the American people and said we’re going into Iraq as an ally to support Israel, how much chance do you think he would have had completing his first term much less gaining a second. Americans will not fight for Israel. According to some estimates, Hitler managed to kill 90% of Jews living in Europe, (Poland was virtually depopulated). That and subsequent migrations to both Israel and the United States were behind my comment. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
There's been roughly three generations since then, and people have this annoying habit of breeding. I mean, look at the American Boomers. Hundreds of thousands of Americans killed during WWII, then a bit over 18 million born between 45 and 64. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Alicat, Ok, somebody look it up. Last night PBS said there were 14 million Moslems in Europe which I think was meant as everything West of Poland. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/front/map/ How many Jews are there? Sorry, beat you to it. http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/concepts/demography/demtables.html#4 They don’t have a chance. P.S. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/anglo14.html |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Funny...the same was said from 1946 through 1972. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Things have changed in thirty years. P.S. On the other hand , here’s something to dream about. In 1976 there was a novel published: “The Masada Plan” by Leonard Harris The Masada Plan The basic plot is that Israel is attacked and about to be overwhelmed. At this time Israel let’s the world know that it had previously placed nuclear weapons in each of the world's major cities, (London, Paris, New York etc.), and promises to detonate them as Israel passes into non-existence, unless the world acts to avoid that event. Pretty neat, huh? [This message has been edited by Alicat (01-26-2005 09:14 PM).] |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Well, if you don't think Israel and Jews worldwide don't have what it takes to do whatever it takes, that's your albatross, not mine. I still believe, just from their history, that they still have the tenacity, strength, and spirit to do whatever it takes to defend themselves against those who want to exterminate their nation and race. Although race is more religion, since, as pointed out previously, Semetic describes certain physical characteristics that are common throughout the Mediterranean all the way up to the Black Sea and across to the Indian Peninsula. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
How many Jews are there?...They don’t have a chance. First of all, the thinning of the Jewish population in Europe is often attributed to intermarriage and assimilation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews#Population_Changes:_Assimilation Second the comparison of Jewish population vs Muslim population numbers is irrelevent as a factor of involvement in our hypothetical war. You're forgetting about political sway. Lobbyists, Corporations, special Interest groups and other positions of power rest in the hands of both populations throughout Europe and the Americas. and they would demand or sway involvement. Again going back to whether the US would involve itself.Israel has had an incredible sway on US policy and its only grown over the last decade. There's little doubt the US would join and that the war could easily be sold in light of the War on Terror campaign. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Alicat, See my P.S. You're right. "Although race is more religion, since, as pointed out previously, Semetic describes certain physical characteristics that are common throughout the Mediterranean all the way up to the Black Sea and across to the Indian Peninsula." Right, Jews can count on that making a difference. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Raphael, “First of all, the thinning of the Jewish population in Europe is often attributed to intermarriage and assimilation.” That it’s safer to do so may have something to do with it, and in Europe there was a severe reduction of the dating pool. Again, if Israel were attacked, and the United States Government tried to sell going to its aid with anything other than Lend Lease it would fail. Americans will not allow it to send their sons and daughters to die for Israel. However, see my P.S. above. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
What can I say, I disagree. In light of the war on terrorism many would. But the more important factor is they simply wouldn't have a choice. Whether you agree or not, such an action would pull in certain countries and allies, at which point everyone else would be pulled into the fray. PS Whether the Masada Plan is myth or fact doesn't matter, you don't need to plant nuclear devices when you can plant people in the right positions of power. And they have, brilliantly. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Saw the PS, Huan, and edited the very long url into something a bit shorter, namely the name of the book. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Raphael, The American government has strained itself making a distinction between its war on terrorism and its support for Israel, (which many Moslems do not believe), because, (I think), to admit a link would have injured popular support for its efforts, ( it may be a stretch but it’s something like Lincoln not being able to come out and say at the onset that the Civil War would be fought not just for union but to end slavery; even after Antietam that was a problem). It is one thing to send money, another to lose blood. And the one thing Vietnam has taught us is that without American support at home, Americans lose wars abroad. |
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Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
"The American government has strained itself making a distinction between its war on terrorism and its support for Israel" Maybe to the general public, but pundits, critics and analysts think otherwise. especially with regards the current administration. Second, its all moot, once the ball gets rolling, the US, or any nation, would have little choice but to get involved in an international war. |
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