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A home without a wall, |
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| The Alley |
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Basic Respect |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas 
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This isn't intended as a political thread, and I really hope it doesn't go there. This is about respect, basic respect. When the DNC was holding their convention, Republicans and Conservatives pretty much stayed away. It was the Democrat's time, and was respectful of that. Then the RNC had their convention, and protestors crawled out of the woodwork. When Clinton was elected both times, I did not raise my voice in dissent. There was plenty of time for that later. It was his time, and my silence was out of respect for the Office. If Gore had won in 2000, same thing. Respect for the Office, and it's his day. Had Kerry won this election, I would still be respectful of the Office and it's his day. There's plenty of time for protests later. Yet with Bush's first term, there were protestors at his Inauguration, and there'll be protestors at his second Inauguration. Where's the respect of Office and it's his day? For some reason, I keep getting this picture in my head of a wedding, with prior girlfriends/boyfriends, prior spouses, and total strangers standing in the back of the church shouting their disapproval and showing their disdain, never caring for a moment that it is that couple's day. What happened to basic respect, or has it gone the way of the dodo and common sense? |
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nakdthoughts Member Laureate
since 2000-10-29
Posts 19200Between the Lines |
It's a matter of win at all costs and poor "sportmanship" today You see it everywhere in all manners of life...and it is very depressing M |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
I’m more concerned about someone blowing up in the crowd. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
darlin, if people do not own respect for themselves, they will never respect or display an allowance out of respect for others...it's a shame, but it is unfortunately bred down through family, as is prejedice and hate.... I hear ya and know where your coming from... 3 cheers for ya... |
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SEA 
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 2000-01-18
Posts 22676with you |
seems to me that people think they are owed respect for just breathing...not for being a good person and treating other people with respect. I get real tired of that kind of mind set. The people who believe they are owed respect without ever giving it to anyone, who think they should be heard, but never listen...who take, without giving. It's disgusting. |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
Two wrongs don't make a right. I respect just about everyone. there are a few exceptions, but only a few. Respect isn't earned its given. poeple who think some one has to earn respect, often are called jerks. Every one should be treated with respect, like a human. I even respect poeple I don't like. It is a matter of charectar. You don't have to like them, but you should respect them. Juju Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
"protestors crawled out of the woodwork" Well, with all due respect and understanding that politeness is not part of politics, never has been... it seems to me, this comment itself is disrepectful, as the majority of the protestors aren't vermin, didn't crawl from any hidden spots, and its only a matter of perspective to suggest that there were no protestors against the Kerry/Edwards campaign, or that there was no mudslinging aimed at Clinton. Politics has never been a delicate whiteglove affair. As for other avenues of social interaction? I'd say there appears to be a breakdown in civility, but history tells me that underneath the outward mask of civility there has always been a boiling kettle of mistrust and disrespect. Perhaps, what we are now observing, is the peeling back of some masks? There were major protests against Lincoln, and multiple death threats. And I can't help but believe that much of what you perceive as a decrease in 'politeness and respect' is in part due to the near-instant media coverage. We are all more highly visible these days. You can't even frown without someone knowing. SEA makes a good point, that most people believe respect must be earned. One way to earn is to give it..in all circumstances, to all people whether or not they hold the same beliefs. Sadly, I don't see that happening often enough anywhere on this planet. But I like to think everyone is given basic equal respect to begin with. Politicians have to be tough, if they can't stand the pressure of protest, how will they hold up under missile atacks? And politics aside, I see respect and disrespect daily in all walks of life, but don't believe our modern culture is really any less respectful than society was a thousand years ago. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Is it disrespectful to stand up for what you believe in, even if you can no longer affect a made decision? If so, then I guess one of the things our constitution upholds is the right to be disrespectful. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I very much sympathize with those who worry at major protest events such as the inauguration ones, there may end up being a Seattle WTO-type of riot or something. I do not wish for any violence or people blowing up in the crowds, I believe 99.9% of us agree there. I have said before that I believe protesting should be educational and promote a positive message to how you can give back to your community and solve the problems we face. I keep "fascist" out of my protest diction and I rather just report news stories related to war and peace in the world and say in an unscripted tone what must be done and how to do so or where you can go to do so. Should there be angst in these rallies and gatherings? Plenty. Should there be moral outrage? Definitely. But what I think is often lacking is that positive inviting message, which I actually consider the most important element to a successful protest. The fact is, the administration asked for it. They and the media continue to pretend as though they speak for every American, when that couldn't be any further from the truth. I will not allow an aggressive foreign policy in which innocent people are being hurt. I will not allow suppression of civil liberties. I will not allow the oppression of the social grassroots movement. There's a reason why me and others protest this day. To show Bush and America that the whole "mandate" jibjab, Bush claiming the election has revealed America's position on Iraq, etc. is all a lie. The nation remains intensely polarized, and to have as many as possible come out and reveal their dissent is symbolic, for the more that come out, the more we keep the media from painting fictions and fallacies about us. It's also a reminder. It's also saying we haven't forgotten. Haven't forgotten the thousands killed in this war he's responsible for starting. Haven't forgotten the suppression of civil liberties from gays to Muslim-Americans. Haven't forgotten his terrible environmental record. Haven't forgotten things like that. And we're going to continue to see to it we hold him responsible for what has been done and we'll continue to challenge his policies. Hey, in case you forgot also, the DNC had their convention, and there WERE protesters. Plenty of them, and they were trapped like animals in the "free-speech zone". That's just one symbolic reason I believe the Democratic Party may be better than the Republican Party, but not much better, and both parties are corrupted to the core by mad corporate influence. When the government begins to show more respect to America, then they will get my respect. But I find nothing more disrespectful personally than taking our great nation into a senseless war and then the minds behind it can't offer their sympathy to our young Americans in uniform, or violating many cornerstones of our democracy and the Bill of Rights. They deserve what's coming to them. All the tears, anger, frustration and determination from the furnace of our hearts. This is America, and in America the right to express our dissent is one of our greatest civil liberties, one which so many other countries would only dream to have someday. Alicat, you know you have the right whenever you want to go out there and protest. I wouldn't be complaining if you protested on both of Clinton's inauguration days, after all, Clinton did some pretty sickening things too, particularly to the homeless under the Welfare Reform Act. Hey, if I was involved politically then, I would be out there protesting Clinton too. You saw the protests on television during the Republican National Convention. Weren't they incredibly peaceful? I am beyond impressed with how the protests shaped up there. So, you have nothing to worry about here. We're just going out there to say loud to the community that we'll not be mandated. It's like a "Everywhere we go...people wanna know...so we tell them...who we are..." type of address. Reminding everyone there is the other half of America who yearns for true freedom, true peace. In a couple hours I'll be set to go out there! I'll be performing at the North Park Vigil. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you But if the bright lights don't receive you You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20 |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
That's the rub, isn't it. I've nothing against peacable protests, as they are a vital component to the Democratic Process. It's just my view that there's a time and place for everything. Would it be too much to ask, irregardless of the situation, that when someone is having a special day, to let them have that day? One day out of 4 years. I consider my birthday to be My Day, just like I consider everyone's birthday Their Day. Would it be just as appropriate to crash someone's birthday, even marching peacably carrying anti-person signs and banners? You don't have to like Bush. You don't have to like any politician. But how about just a smidgeon of basic respect for the Highest Office, and according the person so honored just one day. And Midnitesun, I'm really not sure how you read all that into one phrase, as that was not the definition I had in mind. "protestors crawled out of the woodwork" was a convergence, a deluge, vastly outnumbering those who decided not to accord the DNC their day. |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
If the thread were really about basic respect, and you didn't want a political ballgame, why not choose some other example, say, maybe the way some people treat store clerks on Christmas day, a special day for so many? There are hundreds of examles of disrespect and rudeness out there, that don't have a thing to do with politics. That crawling-out-of-the-woodwork reference is so over-used, so abused. I personally think you are way too bright to rely on such phrases.  Surely, you can be more creative? |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Alicat, again I appreciate your concern. But that's just the problem. I still dream of a day in 4 years when progressive values could finally be preached across the corporate media. When third party candidates can finally be represented in all the same fashions our two corporate parties do, from the debates to a renewed ballot system. When the Bill of Rights can again be viewed just as authentically as the Constitution, where no matter where you come from or what religion you believe in, you are entitled to all the same God-given rights. I've been waiting over four years to see this happen. You're absolutely correct when you say there's a place and time for everything. Unfortunately, when is the time, where is the place, for these type of values which most already agree and dream for? Most Americans already believe in them, so, what's the hold-up? We're not even being given time. And that's exactly why there'll be many protesters out today. We'll be demanding time, demanding a place, for the other interests of Americans that are being neglected. Telling Bush, "Hey, this is not just your time, this is a time for America, and we represent America just as much as you do, so wise up and give us some time, or you'll keep hearing back from us on our watch!" Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you But if the bright lights don't receive you You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20 |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
"seems to me that people think they are owed respect for just breathing...not for being a good person and treating other people with respect" Amen Sea! Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
I understand where you're coming from, Ali, but I think you need to mark the distinction between a "special day" being your birthday and it being an political event. One can respect the office and not the man. If your beliefs put you into conflict with the man holding that office, I don't see how it can be considered disrespectful to the office itself to put out your voice expressing that conflict with the man. We could go back to the "beginning" and consider the respect [we] had for our governing body - which we then fought to separate ourselves from. It wasn't a matter of disrespect, rather a matter of belief. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
There was a term used regarding attitudes toward Bush today by a media analyst that I think touches on what disturbs me; personal venom. The analyst compared Bush to Reagan who being equally if not more idealistic in his presentations never himself was subject to the kind and amount of personal venom as was and is directed at Bush. It was fortuitous perhaps that Lincoln’s name was mentioned here for if you look at the history books you’ll find that he too was the object of a significant virulent animosity. I am at a loss to understand it. |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
Yes, it is to bad this deep rooted anger has to exist. Positive protesting is ok, its what the united states is built on. If I were to go to lets say An Ale Gore speech, I would not yell out you stink or any such phrase, while he was speeking, it is rude. You know I have another bone to pick. you know what is rude, The way Ashely Simpson was bood off on the the stage. same kind of idea Juju Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Throwing rocks at the president's limo as it passed? Sorry, Kacy, those people crawled... |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Mike! I hadn't heard about that, did that happen AFTER Alicat posted this? Of course I don't condone that type of behavior, but at the time I read this post, I don't think that incident had even happened yet, at least, it hadn't been anything I read at 8AM this morning before leaving for work. Protesting and demonstrating without violence is not only OK, its a right as far as I interpret the Constitution. Violence isn't an appropriate way to be heard, though even our founding fathers and mothers resorted to it against the British. You know me better than that, I don't condone rock throwing or throwing anything, for that matter, beyond words. My comment stands. BTW, they are standing out right this minute in the snow at -15 to -20F in Alaska to protest the Bush Administration. Just so you know, many people are protesting, nonviolently. And they stood out in the rain here in Oregon with protest signs....quietly, two blocks from the police department and city hall. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Fruit, rocks, snowballs. Someone burning the American flag in a side park. Shouting and trying to interrupt proceedings. If the street crews hadn't been so on the ball, I'm positive some horse pucky would've been in the mix. In this, it really saddens me to be so jaded. I was hoping it wouldn't be such a hard thing to ask, and I do understand that it is far easier to speak your mind than to refrain for only a moment out of respect. Perhaps it's a generational thing. Main reason I think that is seeing all the youthful collegiate faces in the protest crowds, some still with signs of baby fat. And that could be just how they were raised, and how they chose to be. My parents both came from the Depression Era, and all us kids were born after the end of the Baby Boom Era. Add to that the military background, and respect for elders was paramount. Treat lessers as equals, equals as superiors, and superiors like kings. I know I've inadvertently upset many younger people by calling them Sir or Ma'am. Even some older people judging from their retort 'I'm not that old!'. And that's the distinction. Some see that as an age thing, I see it as a respect thing. Just basic respect. Funny how something so simple could become so complicated. |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
It's a cheap shot to throw this at the youth. You apparently haven't seen the numbers of retired people out ther on the streets, holding up signs in the rain and the snow, begging this country to find other solutions than war and the aggressive attitudes they see in this administration. I am getting really tired of people blaming young people for all the troubles of this world. Please, stop blaming the youth for everything you don't like about the protestors in this country. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Alicat, “Fruit, rocks, snowballs. Someone burning the American flag in a side park. Shouting and trying to interrupt proceedings. If the street crews hadn't been so on the ball, I'm positive some horse pucky would've been in the mix.” Because they know they can and suffer no consequences. Haven’t you ever been in a suburban bar and heard some loud mouth bragging how tough he is, knowing it’s because of where he’s at; in an environment that is civil and tolerant; that that same tiger would not go down a street on the South Side in broad daylight even if he were sealed in an armored car? They make me smile. I remember once there was this white boy killer recruit in San Diego who mistook a black D.I., (Staff Sergeant Davis), for his mother . . . (-: |
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RSWells Member Elite
since 2001-06-17
Posts 2533 |
I had to read this twice. It read the same after I reclamped my dropped jaw. There were 500,000 Americans marching in protest in NYC during the RNC. Believe it or not many were conservatives, christians and myriad others demonstrating...as is their right. Bush was (somehow) the incumbent and had just been busted lying us into a war claiming vengeance on the perps of 9/11 who were elsewhere and still at large. Respect? What kind of country would it be if we rolled over for every dirty politician just because he had finagled his way into office while we silently sat on our hands. There was an abundance of respect in that it didn't turn into a Chicago DNC. If you weren't watching the massive, diverse and impressive demonstration/march on C-Span you'd not had known that half a million of your fellow americans were showing respect...to democracy. Respect? Where was the respect for the public when real issues were avoided, lies and disparagement heaped on the challenger and Bush faced the press less than any modern president? When christians were mobilized to support a war agenda and halliburton was ripping us off? Silence and complicity may be bought but respect my friend must be earned. Poets against the war is redundant |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
John, what in the hell is that last comment all about? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Hey, Kacy...I have no doubt you are against rock-throwing or violence of any kind....and I'm with you completely as far as everyone's right to protest... |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
 Hey everyone, just got back from the day-long protests in Portland! And all I can say is I couldn't imagine it being any better of a turnout. Rough estimates of turnout ranged from 3,000 to 5,000, no pepper spray was used, I only saw one arrest made, it was awesome. I performed some songs over on the North Park lawn. I covered Jefferson Airplane's "Volunteers" and John Lennon's "Working Class Hero" and performed my own material, from "Fall In Love, Not In Line" to "Shells Are For Turtles". I also made a speech in front of the vigil at 3rd and Madison. Alicat, relating to your point, I don't think its fair to blame the youth and their upbringing resulting in these rebellious instincts. The rest of my family voted, but my parents are more moderate and don't go out and get involved like I do. I believe emotions themselves draw people out there on the streets, not just spoon-feeding. If Kerry had been inaugurated today, I would still be out there protesting, warning him, "I'm going to hold you to it...fulfill your promises and vows or you'll hear back from us, and if you don't do anything in ending this war, you will suffer the same response I gave under Bush each Friday!" Any one of you can protest when you want. Often, the place is HERE. The time is NOW. (Just be back home by bedtime, we don't want to wake the neighbors! )Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
It is a difficult concept to differentiate between respect for a position or ideal and respect for an individual. At least ways it would appear. Most generally, the most disrespectful are those who complain the quickest and loudest when they perceive disrespect against themselves personally or someone they believe holds a position similar to theirs. The most obvious example would be gang members who have little respect for societal norms or anyone or anything outside of their turf. Yet, disrespect is the centerpiece of their code. You then go to the political extremes. You can do or say anything you want against someone who holds a political position contrary to yours with the truth not being a factor. Yet, if someone were to make the same claims against someone who holds the same political persuasion, personal offense is taken. You earn your respect as an individual, and if you show disrepect for another, or a position, then you yourself are unworthy of respect. It matters not whether you be conservative or liberal. (I have to admit the new label "progressive" is somewhat disingenous to me, so I apologize for not being politically correct) In any event Ali, I suspect the overwhelming majority of people hold views similar to yours, but because of that very fact, they are not vocal. The ironic fact is those who make the disrespectful and accusatory claims only weaken their position contrary to their view they are making a bold statement. Those who showed disrepect to the Presidency today were seen by those who do respect the institution of the Presidency and those individuals shouting obscenities and throwing items only strengthened the Presidency in the eyes of those observing. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Well spoken, Tim. I couldn't agree more. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Well Tim, it seems that even the liberals are now beginning to see "liberal" as a dirty word. It is not unusual for them to change the wording to make everything sound much better than it truly is. I think the term for that is "newspeak," if I remember 1984 right. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
The irony, oh, the irony! |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Tim, I need to retain you for writing some of the thoughts to which I'm less articulate.  Very well said. To the younguns I offended, I do apologize. That remark was based on observational experience in Life, not just through protests. As for protests, the quiet peacable protests rarely get airtime. It's the rowdy, noisy, antagonistic and minority ones that get noticed. And before any more semantical nitpicking ensues, minority is not racial, only in comparison to majority. Yes, there may be thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands protesting something. By and large they are civil and peacable. It's the minority of those groups (again related to size) which delight in bruhahas, which I can't help but think tarnishes the peacable protest message.Anyhow, that day is done. The guest of honor was honored with very little incident, which is always good. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Tim, well said, to join the chorus. And Ali--"Treat lessers as equals, equals as superiors, and superiors like kings." I was raised the same way, because I was raised well! Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
As I mentioned earlier, respect is given. No one earns respect. If some one must earn respect than the poeple who you must earn respect from, have problems. As I said, and has been resaid by others, this contry was built on protesting. The most effective way to achieve your message is through positive and constructive protesting, like MLK did. The hole earning respect thing is not what classy poeple do. I will quote a clich'e To match this other clich'e "Two wrongs dont make a right. Juju Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Juju...I disagree Upon meeting someone new...especially in these days...isn't it wise to be a little cautious...until you both earn each other's respect...no expectations other then to maintain a care and concern for each other...which builds in time...and I'm talking about women to...as it has been my experience, that I've met some very shady characters...??????? New neighbors moving in, new friends at work, etc....and please don't think I'm suggesting everyone is awful...they're not...but I have met some very dishonest people...with which I took my time getting to know...as when your burned, you learn to be cautious. So yeah, respect can be earned, given and received....and should be....and if one doesn't respect themselves, they will never respect others... |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
My friend, I am not saying you have to like someone. I am not sayting you have to trust poeple you don't know. I am saying treat with respect. When I am saying treating some one with respect I am talking about treating some one with dignity. Now Yes I have said earlier that there is a little few that I don't respect personally. That is because they did something that repulsed me by doing something extreemly taboo. Even then, I treat them with respect. I don't respect them personaly, but I give them dignity. Treating someone with respect is different then personally respecting. I maybe I should of more clarified what I meant. I thought we were talking about treating poeple with respect. Juju Juju - 1.) a magic charm or fetish 2.)Magic 3.)A taboo connected woth the use of magic |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Juju Your absolutely right! I looked it up and what I found was this.....and all issues on treating others with respect, are the same as your example... You've taught me something today..thank you Maybe we can respect ourselves, our parents and authorities, but is that all? No, God wants us to respect all people. In 1 Peter 2:17, God’s Word says ‘Show proper respect to everyone’. We learned earlier that God has a plan for everyone and that is something we can respect. We do not have to agree with someone to respect them. You may not even like the things they do, but you can still treat them with dignity and courtesy. One of the quickest ways to get in trouble in our dojo is to ‘make fun’ of someone or call someone a name. When you do that, you are being disrespectful and you are hurting someone that Gods loves. What would you do if I gave you a special gold coin that whenever you give it away, you get two more back. The more you tried to give them away, the more you got. Respect is like that. When you respect others, you get respect back twofold. Not only are you likely to be respected by the person you respect, but you will be respected by others who see you showing respect. On the other hand, being disrespectful shows a weakness of character that no one will respect. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Picture from the protest!  I am featured in the white circle. I carried a 12' by 16' canvas panel which read a quote by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., "Nonviolence is the answer to the crucial political and moral questions of our time; the need for mankind to overcome oppression and violence without resorting to oppression and violence. Mankind must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love." :roll: Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you But if the bright lights don't receive you You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20 |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Noah, Shouldn’t it be above your head? |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
John, I'm glad you thought that! I ran out of cardboard, so I basically just had to think fast and improvise! So I basically brushed a spare canvas panel with a yellow Crayola crayon, had some colored Sharpie markers and glitter gel pens aptly laid before me, and I designed in bold letters the message. Unfortunately 12 by 16 inches just isn't that big, so it's not one of those signs a passenger in an automobile could glimpse and say, "Ah, yeaaaahhhhh!" and honk the horn in cheer, or boo at you. Nevertheless, there were so many people out shopping and all, so I got between 60-125, "Can I see your sign?" responses. All in all, it was good enough for me. Next time I'll be sure to have cardboard on me so I can write in a larger size and font. Ah well, it happens, no hurt feelings! (giggles) Love, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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