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Freedom of speech (or..delete this NOW Ron)
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Freedom of speech (or..delete this NOW Ron) |
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1984 New Member
since 1999-11-10
Posts 4 |
The artist is the creator of beautiful things. To reveal art and conceal the artist is art's aim. There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. Books are well written, or badly written.That is all. The nineteenth century dislike of realism is the rage of Caliban seeing his own face in a glass. The nineteenth century dislike of romanticism is the rage of Caliban not seeing his own face in a glass. The moral life of man forms part of the subject-matter of the artist, but the morality of art consists in the perfect use of an imperfect medium. No artist desires to prove anything. Even things that are true can be proved. No artist has ethical sympathies. An ethical sympathy in an artist is an unpardonable mannerism of style. No artist is ever morbid. Theartist can express everything. Thought and language are to the artist instruments of an art. Vice and virtue are to the artist materials for an art. All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Diversity of opinion about a work of art shows that the work is new, complex, and vital. When critics disagree, the artist is in accord with himself. We can forgive a man for making a useful thing as long as he does not admire it. The only excuse for making a useless thing is that one admires it intensely. All art is quite useless. Oscar Wilde, Preface to The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891 [This message has been edited by 1984 (edited 11-17-1999).] |
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Michael
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-13
Posts 7666California |
1984, I will be as short as I can with this....you have the freedom to go somewhere else, if you do not like it here. Why change, if change is only gonna draw controversy. If it ain't broke, why fix it? We do have a pretty well oiled machine here. More so than that, we have a family type atmosphere among the general population of poets gathered here. We all come to Passions "freely" to post our work because of the environment Ron provides for us here. I, personally have seen many poetry sites go down in flames because of the postings you so adamantly want to see allowed on this site. Have you even stopped to think why Passions is so much bigger than any other site on the net? Ron has provided a wonderful web-site for people who share his interest in poetry, and CLASS I may add. To allow disruptive posts in "our" forums over cries of "freedom of speech" would not only be harming to many of the poets here, but ultimately cost Ron current members as well as future members. I think it is ashame for someone like you to come here, 100% unappreciative of the hard work that has gone into the builing of such a fine site as Passions. I find appalling the ignorance and arogance you come here with to place such a pointless attack against the owner of such a site. There is a big difference in critiquing a poem and slamming someone. If you want vulgar postings - you are "free" to build your own site. Please feel free to send me the link when you do so I can be as courteous to you as you have been here. Michael [This message has been edited by Michael (edited 11-10-1999).] |
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Watcher666 Senior Member
since 1999-10-13
Posts 1606 |
Although I agree with much of what you have said I think freedom of speech is subject to much interpetation.This is Ron's site. He has invited us all into his 'home'. If I invited someone into my home,I would not appreciate them insulting my family and friends and using foul or derogatory words to them. Therefore his site his rules. If you feel you must say something to a poet that is of a harshly worded nature, then email them.No one learns from cruelty.Constructive critism is the only way to learn.And I don't think the rest of us care to hear it either. If you don't like a poem or prose,then don't post on it.What you consider modest can be precieved as harsh and critical to another. From what I have seen Ron has always dealt fairly with all.I might not agree with all of his decsions,but I do respect them and him. ------------------ Illusion...what we see and what we do...it's all up to you. |
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DreamEvil Member Elite
since 1999-06-22
Posts 2396 |
Well now, I had not thought to explain or reply to any post on this subject, but this one merits response for two reasons, 1.) I agree with most of the philosophy in this piece, 2.) I cannot condone through silence any disparagement of Ron. Straight up, there is no progress without change. Without turmoil any society will stagnate and fall into decay. (See my next essay in prose for more in that vein.) I believe in shock as an effective tool to open eyes, but not in wanton application of it as that renders it valueless. I believe in free speech but as I am no longer an anarchist, I am intelligent enough to realize that structure is necessary to determine in what direction an individual or society will grow. While fun, anarchy would lead to formation of larger and larger groups of like-minded people in what are essentially communities. They would then necessitate a set of rules or designate a ruling body. Such is human nature. As for my story, it was toned down from the original conception of it. As for admonishing Ron on his policing his site, I would refer you to my prior statement on the necessity of structure to direct the growth of the community. There are times when the good of one must be sacrificed for the good of the many. If that is Ron's decision, or even whim, then I will abide by it since he has more than earned my loyalty. I did not speak out against losing my Moderators position because I have no desire to cause a schism within Passions. I may cause conflict or turmoil with my work, but I will not split Passions in twain. That all said, I have respect for your views and I share some of them, but the harshness of your tone detracts from the message you seek to relay. ------------------ Now and forever, my heart hears ~one voice~. DreamEvil© |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
1984 First - you used Ron's e-mail address in your profile. Afraid to use your own? Afraid to reveal your real self? Then you must be hiding something. So from the beginning, I do not trust you. Second - freedom of speech is honored here. But there have to be rules in any society (and we are a society here - family society). I certainly don't want to be in a family where there's infighting and 'slamming'. I come here to read and write poetry, to be a part of this wonderful group of people. Part of the reason is that this site, more than any I've seen in my three years on the 'net, has responsible, intelligent, caring people. Third - you have freedom. Freedom to go. Freedom to stay. Freedom to say what you want to say. But with freedom comes a responsibility. As an American, we have freedom but to maintain that, we have the responsibility of following the laws set forth by the government. At Passions, Ron (and the Moderators and members) are the government. We set the tone, the rules, the limits. Lastly - To assume that Ron would delete this message shows ignorance of the tenets of this site. Ron is the least judgemental person here. His integrity and sense of fair play are above reproach. If I thought your post would in any way hurt him, I'd delete it before he saw it. But I know he will take your comments seriously and respond or not, accordingly. You misjudge him if you think he's not going to allow you to have your say. You chose the correct forum, the correct format. I challenge you to step forward with your true identity. Hiding behind an Orwellian user name and Ron's e-mail address is cowardly. (Note: your IP address reveals much about you.) Sharon [This message has been edited by Poet deVine (edited 11-10-1999).] |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
I am, as most of you know, Ron's most adamant proponent on this site. I cannot and will not allow any disparagement of his philosophies on "free speech" to be posted without my own remand. Very few of you were around when Ron opened this site. Those of you who were know that he did so because we desperately needed a place where we could post our work in a positive and supportive environment. The site we all had been frequenting did (and still does) have a very anarchistic ambience. The people who post there are proud of their lack of guidelines, of course. If you'd like to move over there, I'm sure they'd love to have you. Just email me for the URL. Ron does not deny anyone the right to their opinions, be they supportive of his own or dissenting. He simply asks that your visits to Passions be treated like you were visiting his home. Act accordingly - or go elsewhere. That's not too much to ask. Unfortunately, there are always ingrates who feel the need to put a monkey wrench into a fine-tuned machine. I, for one, am very glad that we can toss them out the door and lock them out. |
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doreen peri Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812Virginia |
Out of the clear blue sky, in comes "1984" with all kinds of complaints and opinions about Passions of Poetry. Let me ask you, "1984".... how much time to you spend at Passions? Are you a current member using an Orwellian pen name? I echo Ms. deVine in asking why you are too timid to reveal your own identity. If you have such adament opinions, well, I for one would certainly like to know who I'm talking to. I guess I would take your post more seriously if I knew that you frequented Passions as a regular participant. Without that knowledge, for all I know, you are a stranger to the site who's opinion about how it is operated is moot. -doreen peri |
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IsabelleSkye Member
since 1999-06-27
Posts 253 |
And I must say 1984, some moderators step down due to their own ignorance. If this was any way a reflection on Ron for the situation think again. I CHOSE to leave. I still post here tho  *wink at Michael, there's one alias down!*. My situation as part of the whole fiasco was entirely my fault and my fault alone.Now back off, play nice and have fun. Just a quick Q, are you a true poet? Well let's see some!! Around here for the most part we write and reply, rather than tear each other down. Please do email Nan for that other URL, you'll love it! There's no silly rules or moderators! *wink* Happy Writing IsabelleSkye |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Here we go again. Seems like every couple of weeks someone thinks they have come up with a new concept upon the theme of "freedom of speech" with regards to Passions in Poetry. Such similar topics, indeed, such similar thoughts and words can be found within the Alley, Philosophy, Prose, Feelings, Open, and Announcements. It is nothing new, nothing innovative, no fresh battle cry for independence from tyranny so say whatever the hell you want to sans responsibility. It has always been the way of pyromaniacs to smell of gasoline. Let your flame flicker bright and fitful against the battle flag you wave defiantly. And let it be elsewhere. Alicat Ali Adamson |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
I must ditto PdV and doreen - the first thing I did was go into "Profile", and saw Ron's e-mail address. Was this because "1984" wanted to make sure Ron saw all of the posts in favor of this home and community? Even DE and Izzy refuse to play with this coward. Step forward, Sir or Madam, with your true intentions. ------------------ Sunshine Look, then, into thine heart, and write ~~~ Henry Wadsworth Longfellow |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
This warms my heart. To see us pull together and rally 'round our home enforces my belief that this is the place I want to be. Thank you Ron! |
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suthern
since 1999-07-29
Posts 20723Louisiana |
I came here from a place where saying anything and everything one wanted to say without regard for anyone else or their feelings became the norm... and I hope I'm never treated to a bigger display of uncovered fannies in this lifetime. It may sound silly, but it actually hurt to see poets prostituting their talents to carry on a flame war... I lost every bit of respect for them, and still mourn a place that had given me great joy. I can't reclaim that wasteland, but I can add my thanks to Ron for providing this place, this home, this refuge. Whether or not I agree with every single decision Ron makes, it is his right to make those decisions. He's opened the door and welcomed us into his "home" and asked very little in return. Not a one of us is shackled here... we're free to leave. If you want controversy and nastiness, there's plenty out there... just don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out. |
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DreamEvil Member Elite
since 1999-06-22
Posts 2396 |
Once again, I feel compelled to reply to this piece. For those entreating 1984 to move on and go elsewhere, how can you tout the camaraderie of Passions and send someone packing for their opposing views, all in the same breath? As for the anonymity of 1984, countless accepted poets do the same thing here everyday. The e-mail address was perhaps meant to further show Ron the intolerance of the poets posting here by directing any hate mail to his address. Also, keep in mind that to an outsider recent events seem unfair. Hell, I think they are unfair. That would mean a genuine fear of reprisal for speaking their mind. I can entirely relate to that as it happens to me constantly. Let me describe a scenario for you; A very controversial poet is disliked as a person for his verse. When that poet states a concern or even a request for help, enemies swarm him with a deluge of castigating replies to the point he is fearful of saying anything or ever asking for help again. This same poet attempts to write out his bitterness and posts two poems to Adult. The poems are seen as a general blanket statement against women and the poet then feels attacked once again. That causes the poet to withdraw from posting to Adult. Got ahead of myself in this tale I did. At the beginning of hostilities, this poet is dumbfounded by free verse and states so, asking for an explanation of it's poetic worthiness. That results in a flurry of attacks that hardens him to the welfare of Passions. He then sends an e-mail requesting that Ron open a forum for essays, figuring the fire cannot get much worse. He is astounded to be asked to Moderate a prose forum. That alone earns his loyalty to Ron. As Moderator for Prose, he does well enough until he decides to write a truly horrifying tale in the spirit of Halloween. Allowing a few friends to read and critique, as well as determine its worth as a post, he posts it and waits to see the response. Nearly 24 hours later, a friend tells him there is a very negative reply to his story. After reading it, he e-mails Ron to delete the entire thread. The problem is that a fellow Moderator directed that person to the story with the knowledge that it would upset her. When she posts, Ron is immediately notified that the story is unacceptable and calls for the poet's ousting begin going to Ron. This seems a well-orchestrated attack designed to result in the banning of a common enemy. Keep in mind that the poet does not say or post anything in his own defense due to a desire to keep Passions whole, something his enemies never considered. Quite an interesting tale this is, don't you think? As a footnote to this tale, Ron publicly acknowledges a seeming vendetta against this poet has been in his awareness for some time. This is said in a reply to an Alley post. Stories aside, if such happened while an observer was watching, they would react just as 1984 has. Assuming they cared about justice at all. Finally, that tale ends with the poet's loyalty to Passions and Ron both unshaken and unassailable. Therefore will I defend anyone's right to speak their mind, whether I agree with them or not. I will not tell them to leave simply because I dislike their writing or message, nor will I hold against them words spoken in anger or passion. 1984, I understand some of your reasons in posting as you did. I must also say that the vehemence with which these others have met your protest is exactly what you hoped to inspire, as an example of intolerance. It is intolerance, but is also a defense of our home and should be taken with a grain of salt. Even as you and myself, we are all only human. Ron made the best decision for the community, from necessity. For my fellow Passions poets, while I may sit back and let attacks on me go unheeded, I will defend my friends (some of you are) and enemies if attacks are unjustified. Moreso will I fight for the right of an individual to speak their mind without fear of reprisal. Passions is my home as well and I will defend its walls and it's principles. If any are offended by my display of opinion and loyalty, so be it. Ron and Passions deserve no less than the respect due them.. ------------------ Now and forever, my heart hears ~one voice~. DreamEvil© [This message has been edited by DreamEvil (edited 11-10-1999).] |
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doreen peri Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812Virginia |
Interesting and sad story, DE. Sometimes it's an eye opener to see the perspective of incidents from the viewpoint of another. Especially those who feel they have been personally assaulted and not give a fair shot. I am not here to judge. All I will say to your treatise is that you most certainly have a strong perspective and viewpoint that you have been personally wronged and that there was some kind of "plot" among several people here to harm you and demand you be relieved of your duties as Moderator. Frankly, I find this whole concept very difficult, if not impossible, to believe (mostly because I believe in PEOPLE... not just the people at Passions!) and I think you are, at this point, quite overly sensitive. If, in fact, there was some kind of mass vendetta against you, I don't know how I would have missed those implications, being a regular frequenter of Passions. Your "story" is one that evokes empathy in me, though, if not sympathy. In my life, I have had experiences which I thought were unfair at best. Sometimes, I have felt personally slighted and that there were people talking about me behind my back. (Well, not as much as those Justins and Loony 'Toons in the 'stute... hehehe) It happens to all of us, I guess, but some let these types of feelings bother them more than others. For what it's worth, what I think is this: You earned enough respect from Ron to be honored with the title and responsibilities of Moderator. That is commendable in itself... and from what I hear, you did a wonderful job (I have only gone to the Prose forum a few times, so I have no personal experience with this). Somewhere along the line, your posts offended people, however, for whatever reason. Some of them offended me. Perhaps the world (or the Passions community) is not ready to accept every type of verbiage spoken or written. Often, people get offended because the values that they hold dear are being ridiculed or treated as insignificant. You are not the only one who has feelings. If, in fact, your feeling that you have been railroaded out of Passions as a Moderator is correct, then I most definitely feel you are justified in the anger and hurt you express. I would just encourage you to think about how unlikely this is among thinking, intelligent persons, such as the poets who post regularly at Passions. I, for one, would not allow ANYBODY to talk me into having some kind of personal vendetta against ANY human being! To me, that concept is absurd. And, I would venture to guess that most of the other poets who post here who have earned your respect would say the same thing. So.... think for a minute.... WHO would do this to you? Do you REALLY think you have been railroaded? Instead, I think that your idea of "freedom of speech" simply offended some people. It's as simple as that. So, I will close by saying I sure hope all of this is over soon because I had a lousy day at work and I am not accustomed to conflict and I need to get a good night's sleep tonight because I have a big meeting with a client tomorrow (whoops! sorry! perspective change for a second). For everyone here at Passions, I will take the microphone and say that it is truly unfortunate that there has been an upheaval of emotion here and that you and others have taken personal offense. To Ron, thank you for a fabulous website. To all... including you, DE.... let's get over this. Leave it behind you. Learn from it. Stop losing sleep over it. EVERYBODY makes mistakes. Forgive each other. Forgive yourselves. LET IT GO.... then you can grow! The End. Case closed. Good night and God Bless you all. -doreen peri  |
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Michael
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-13
Posts 7666California |
Well I'm not sure why we all decided to drudge up the past here. The issue seemed pretty plain to me, RULES. Every society has rules, most websites have rules(Even DreamEvil's website is not exempt from RULES). Anarchy has never proven to be a means of stability or support to any society nor any website I can bring to mind, and in most case has led to their direct downfall. 1984, If you are who I think you are, I personally deleted most of the posts in question and would do so again, to protect not only the interest of Passions but the feelings of the members. This is not a country, this is a website. "Freedom of Speech" for any person to post vulgarities and insults at will is not mandated by the governing body of any country, inside or OUTSIDE the USA, to website owners so far as I am aware. I, as a moderator, am not your congressman, you did not vote me into this office, and I owe you nothing, personally. I work for Ron Carnell and Passion in Poetry and it is an honor to do so. This website has RULES. When rules are broken, (and broken consistently I may add), sometimes the actions taken have to be more than just verbal reminders. There was no "single incident" to which you refer to. The fact that you say such only proves you have not been here long enough to know or appreciate the depth of the issue you are arguing, albeit pointlessly. Michael [This message has been edited by Michael (edited 11-10-1999).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Michael, We work for Ron? Hey, does that mean we get a benefits program? How about health insurance? Maybe we should unionize? Does he pay payroll tax even when there's no payroll? You've just given me a lot of ideas, Michael. Workers unite!!!!! Brad |
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DreamEvil Member Elite
since 1999-06-22
Posts 2396 |
Once again, I think I am misunderstood. The focus of my story above is solely to illustrate how such actions would seem to a new member. What prompted my response was repeated statements directing 1984 to go elsewhere. I thought that perhaps tolerance of another's views was being neglected with those statement. My hopefully last word on this is to reiterate that I have no qualm with enforcement of rules and Ron has my support. ------------------ Now and forever, my heart hears ~one voice~. DreamEvil© |
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Skyfyre Senior Member
since 1999-08-15
Posts 1906Sitting in Michael's Lap |
(taking a deep breath) Sigh -- this truly goes to show that your actions follow you -- especially the ones you took in haste. It has been brought to my attention that there have been whispers that this "1984" character is actually me, incognito. I am here to set the record straight -- IP addresses or whatever else aside, this topic was not posted by me -- nor do I agree with the manner or tone in which it was presented. As many of you know, I was involved in the "incident" that is mentioned herein, which is probably another reason why some persons might think I am the culprit here. However, I have apologized for my haste in that matter, to both the general public and Ron personally. And I have no intention nor desire to bring that subject back up. I have a great deal of respect for Ron and all he does here -- and if I did, in fact, have a grievance such as this, rest assured I would take it up with him personally rather than posting it here. In my opinion, a direct attack on Ron such as this, especially posted in a public forum, is in extremely bad taste. Furthermore, I should like to ask "1984" a question: if the final authority for what is posted on Ron's site should lie not with Ron, then who, praytell, would you suggest? Or do you merely think he should allow everyone to post whatever they please? The Internet is an expansive community, my friend; needless to say there are many of those out there who would love nothing more than to come into this site and post filth and insults just for the sake of being contrary, which, if not edited, would spark many debates and all-out fights. This would accomplish absolutely nothing except to ruin the air of camaraderie and respect Ron and other members of Passions have worked so hard to build. This is a poetry site, created for the sharing of ideas in a creative, friendly, and beautiful manner. I see absolutely no reason to allow others who might disagree to pollute that, including you. I implore you -- if you have any good sense at all, learn the lesson that I did and back off -- you will doubtless be made welcome. Otherwise, I must join the others in urging you to take your unprovoked attacks elsewhere, where they might be more appropriate. --Kess [This message has been edited by Skyfyre (edited 11-11-1999).] |
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Toerag Member Ascendant
since 1999-07-29
Posts 5622Ala bam a |
Decorum? That's "Toerag" in a nutshell! Freedom of Speech? Yep, it's here for sure. Ron owns the company store alright....and sure has alot of repeat business too. Ya think the old man knows what he's doing? Seems as though he does. I guess most everyone knows me here, and they also know I can be crude, sometimes a tad obscene, and even use some very "almost over the line" sexual inuendos occasionally, (okay, a whole bunch).....but yanno? Rudeness to others shouldn't be tolerated anywhere! (unless it's directed towards Balladeer or LongJohn Silver). I still don't know what happened with the Moderator incident, but seems to me the "Moderator" in question has no ill feelings?..That kinda tells me something about this site and Mr. Carnell, and the Moderator! This is a "free" site. This is a fun place to visit. I think Ron owns this site? Furthermore, I think he and his moderators do a damn fine job in making sure that nobody gets hurt or offended at "HIS" site.....When ya think about it, He's kind of made it "OUR" site hasn't he? (Ron, I think you should be ashamed of yourself! I'll bet you didn't even send him his "membership fee" back did ya?) [This message has been edited by Toerag (edited 11-11-1999).] |
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Kelly Member
since 1999-07-03
Posts 145 |
I didn't read any of the replies because I'm sick to death of this subject. I see this site like a news paper with Ron as the editor. DE submitted trash and Ron edited it. End of story. I doubt any newspaper would print such trash so why does anyone expect Ron to allow it. |
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desperado Member
since 1999-05-24
Posts 312FT Hood,Tx |
1984 - interesting thoughts on what you have to say. Two things. The first thought that came to my mind was something my government teacher said in class (or was it heinlein in his novels? oh well.) Freedom only exsists so far as it doesn't hurt or infringe on another persons freedom or beliefs. why do you think that 200+ years after that famous American document was ratified that some of those words have been voided? "one nation, under God"? tell me, where is God in our schools? where is God in our government? he's there just for show or in run down classrooms with cracked walls and bibles with missing pages. why? because someone's freedom of speech for their beliefs was infringed. though I don't like it, I certainly respect it. a persons beliefs are great. wonderful. you stand for some thing in this barbie-doll world of money and fake beauty. congrats. but do you have to go and step on everyone's toes to make your beliefs heard? no. the other thought was that if you are an anarchist, then you would realize that you are for the dog eat dog lifestyle. everything you have is yours only as long as you keep it. isn't this what is being done here? it's his, he's gonna run it the way he wants to run it. I'm sorry you don't like it, but reality isn't nice. it's never candy coated. it's always a pain in some ones butt. you are welcome to stay, I like your views, but I don't like your cowardice. sooner or later, you will have to stand for something and act on it. you are a spineless person who needs to be proud of who you are and what you believe in. all I see is a whiney person who thinks that society has wronged him. it reminds me of someone close to me who's going to be seeing some time in jail. some very long time in jail in fact because she feels the same way and tried to make it right in her eyes. if you stand for what you believe, others will admire and respect you, if not like it. that is what makes an adult different from a child. the ability to stand for something you believe in. james |
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Systematic Decay Senior Member
since 1999-09-15
Posts 1301That place with padded walls and funny people in white......... |
Phew......took me a while to read that one... 1984-**sigh** whoever you are, your method of posting was cowardly. I do agree with the ideals you brought up, but not the way it was written- as an attack. Doreen, you say Scott seems to "think" some people are out to get him, but Ron noticed and pointed out that Scott is often berated not for the content, but for being him....I believe it was in Christopher's complaint. Kelly, **sigh again** your reply was rude and unwarranted....an ATTACK- which seems to be what everyone is against, in one way or another, be it hypocritical or not. The hypocracy I mention is that of the people who call Passions a kind place, yet encouraging a person to leave it because of a controversial topic. Lastly, 1984, the last word does belong to Ron, he is the one who made the site- and if you have any gripes about it, I suggest you email him personally, instead of attacking him. ------------------ Thinking is just what a great many people think they are doing when they are merely rearranging their predjudices. |
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1984 New Member
since 1999-11-10
Posts 4 |
He who lets the world, or his own portion of it, choose his plan of life for him, has no need of any other faculty than the ape-like one of imitation. He who chooses his plan for himself, employs all his faculties. He must use observation to see, reasoning and judgment to foresee, ac- tivity to gather materials for decision, discrimination to decide, and when he has decided, firmness and self-control to hold to his deliberate decision. And these qualities he requires and exercises exactly in proportion as the part of his conduct which he determines according to his own judgment and feelings is a large one. It is possible that he might be guided in some good path, and kept out of harm's way, with- out any of these things. But what will be his comparative worth as a human being? It really is of importance, not only what men do, but also what manner of men they are that do it. Among the works of man, which human life is rightly employed in perfecting and beautifying, the first in importance surely is man himself. Supposing it were pos- sible to get houses built, corn grown, battles fought, causes tried, and even churches erected and prayers said, by ma- chinery--by automatons in human form--it would be a con- siderable loss to exchange for these automatons even the men and women who at present inhabit the more civilized parts of the world, and who assuredly are but starved speci- mens of what nature can and will produce. Human nature is not a machine to be built after a model, and set to do exactly the work prescribed for it, but a tree, which requires to grow and develop itself on all sides, according to the tendency of the inward forces which make it a living thing. John Stuart Mills, On Liberty [This message has been edited by 1984 (edited 11-17-1999).] |
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suthern
since 1999-07-29
Posts 20723Louisiana |
Your argument for anonymity didn't change with your name, did it? But then, change isn't always necessary... and certainly isn't always good. |
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Michael
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-13
Posts 7666California |
1984, Well let me just say I have traveled many times and many miles, as plenty of us here have to meet each other. We are family. We are not just an email address, and a name on the screen. However, sadly, you obviously will never be able to see past your own obstinancy to become more than that. Michael |
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desperado Member
since 1999-05-24
Posts 312FT Hood,Tx |
ignorance and arrogance only lead way to mass destruction. you have both. I will not try to make this personal, but I tell people the TRUTH, be it good or bad, soft or harsh. There is a time and a place for a particular method for dispensing truth, but never one for dispensing lies. you can candy coat it or you can be blunt or you can choose not to say anything. point blank. I agree with michael. Doreen is like my aunt as is Nan. Michael is like a brother and various people on and on. I may not agree with their perspectives, but I still respect them for it. and it's that respect and honesty that keeps the friendship viable and vibrant. may you find your niche here. for I know there is one. but sometimes you must change your method for expressing your beliefs. don't change them, just find other ways to express them. |
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doreen peri Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812Virginia |
Hello again, all. Before I begin to say what I hope will be the last I feel the need to say about all this, I just want to say that I think it's wonderful, indeed, to be amongst such intelligent, thinking and caring individuals. All who have posted in this thread, bar none, have expressed what appear to be true and sincere empathy and outreach toward each other. There are clearly differences of opinion, but if you look at the whole picture, you will see human beings who care so much about what they believe in to take a stand for it.... and to stand by others who believe how they believe. That, my friends, is freedom, isn't it? We are truly free if we can openly discuss our differences and display our adament beliefs in a public forum. No doubt in my mind that this is what freedom of speech is all about. I also want to say that I'm sick of this subject, too, but dammit! I just can't seem to leave erroneous comments alone or ask for clarification when I don't understand what someone else has said. So, that's why I'm writing to this thread again. Ok, now I have just another couple of things to say. Systematic Decay said this, "Doreen, you say Scott seems to "think" some people are out to get him, but Ron noticed and pointed out that Scott is often berated not for the content, but for being him....I believe it was in Christopher's complaint. Kelly, **sigh again** your reply was rude and unwarranted....an ATTACK- which seems to be what everyone is against, in one way or another, be it hypocritical or not." (i hope I did the html right to make the above bold. If not, sorry) To the statement directed toward me, I have no personal experience with any replies to Scott's posts berating him as a person, not in response to his content. It matters not to me that Ron has apparently stated he has interpreted responses to DE's posts as such. Not that I don't respect Ron's opinion... I most certainly do! But I have not personally seen this. Therefore, if someone (DE... Systematic Decay... 1984? Anybody?) could send me a link via e-mail to such responses to DE's posts, I'd very much like to witness this first hand. If someone has been publicly personally berated or attacked, I would be up in arms about this myself. Until I see first hand that this has actually happened, I'll stick to my opinion stated in my previous lengthy post (whew! I DO get long-winded, don't I?) As for Systematic Decay's second comment directed toward Kelly and claiming that Kelly has attacked DE by saying he "submitted trash" .... geez!!! You think that's an ATTACK? No, my friend, that is simply Kelly's opinion regarding the content of the document. Kelly's words here do not personally attack DE. On the contrary! They speak about the content of the "literature". Here I'd like to insert, that I recently went to another bulletin board where DE's "Halloween Story" got rave reviews from the other poets, many of whom I greatly respect. They disagree with Kelly and I, I guess, but that's what freedom of speech is all about, isn't it? I was really surprised at so many positive responses because the content of the piece was, in my opinion, intended to be disturbing with no resolution to the evil. Frankly, it made me sick on my stomach. (That was a comment regarding the content, btw, not a personal attack on DE... just thought I'd clear that up in advance). And finally *wiping sweat from brow*, I have a couple of questions I'd like 1984 to answer: You said, "Yes, there are several other places to hang out, which I do, that have no moderators, no edit functions, no advertisements. They offer real freedom, real expression, without edit." Questions: (1) - I'm sure you've seen me at these other sites, as well, and I like it there VERY much btw, but.... here's the question.... If you like so much no edit functions, no moderators, and all that, why don't you accept those people here who openly speak that they do not think certain types of writing are art, but instead, consider them valueless and degrading? Why can't I say that here? If I said it on the other sites, you'd call it free speech but if I say it here, you call it the "Decorum" of a site which censors people? You speak from two sides of your mouth. and (last question) (2) Do you honestly think that all public bulletin boards would allow the KKK to post messages of hate without censor? If you do, you should think again. Most all responsible online community bulletin boards would not allow such posts. This is because, (thank God), the majority of people on this planet are learning not to hate people. Hate verbiage is tolerated less and less. And similarly, verbiage condoning violence and human abuse is being tolerated less and less. Ok, that's all I have to say (that's what I said last time, huh? hehehe oh, except, loved your post, james! You are a fantastic human being and I wish you all the best of luck in Korea... I will miss you VERY much). Good day to all. Happy community living! Peace and love and rock'n'roll! Pass the bottle of wine, I'm going out of this one in style! Damn it feels good to have a place to speak my mind!!!! Woohoo! I absolutely LOVE freedom of speech!!! your friend, doreen peri |
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1984 New Member
since 1999-11-10
Posts 4 |
Doreen, In answer to your questions: My problem is not that others have points of view different than mine, but rather that one person (or several people) made decisions for me as to what is or isn't objectionable to me. Free speach involves the freedom not to listen, or herein not to read. Ron and or the moderators had the right to read the postings in question, but I did not. I (and hundreds like me) did not have a chance to ignore it or to post our views for or against it either. Free speech cannot be free speech when it is moderated by a small minority of a populace, in the name of "public good". As well, on those other sites, you know as well as I do that hate, vulgarity, negativity and sexual postings are made that would (I assume) be taken off that this site. What do we do as those sites?? We avoid the postings, we skip over them, and perhaps we shout back. It goes both ways, and all. I am not speaking as I see it from both sides of my mouth; my disagreement with you does not mean I want Ron to edit your words (nor others) or censure them. In fact, it does not matter whose words are really censored, it affects me and those rights as much as if it were my own words. As I have said, Ron has the legal ability to continue censorship, I believe that he should not have the moral. It might open up a can of worms in a closed society, but at least no one is making the decision for me, and for ALL OF YOU, as to what is objectionable. Michael, Your use of the term obstinancy (sic) to describe my posting of views upon a forum described as a place for "… for flaming, complainin', and screaming your head off. " seems to again solidify your personal viewpoint. Yes, I probably do not wish to make my family and community relationships contingent upon the decorum and social order you speak of. Nor, I suppose, would you wish for those changes that open challenge and diversity might bring about. Desperado, You are speaking of friendships, I am speaking of one man making a decision for me as to what I should see and not. This does not personally involve Ron or Nan or Michael, as I know them only from here, and they seem fine to me, excepting that they wish to be my censors. It has to do with keeping an order which keeps postings (potentially art, criticism or as well, crap) from your eyes. My opinions are not universal TRUTH nor lies, but opinions. They are my truths, just as yours are yours. Nevertheless, opinions involve much more than fact, bit instead the interpretation by individual of facts. I am saying I do not want to be censored and I do not want to be fix into a box. Those, are truths to me. I am unsure how freedom of expression, whether in reading or in writing, becomes "ignorance and arrogance (that can) only lead way to mass destruction". One might think the opposite might be true. [This message has been edited by 1984 (edited 11-12-1999).] |
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Michael
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-13
Posts 7666California |
1984, Freedom of speech, freedom of expression is your right to express at your own expense. It becomes "arogance" when you seek to express it at other people's expense, (should we just allow insulting and crude comments with a grain of salt because people like you wish to talk trash - or see it?) As I said before, Passions is not the biggest site on the net (and still growing rather fast) for no reason. It is the environment provided by Passions that makes it so successful. You cry of freedom of speech becomes "ignorance" when you come in here in an insulting manner such as you did and point fingers to one man. You should realize that no one is forced to be here. We are all here because our interests as a whole are protected here, unlike some of the other websites you have mentioned, and we all stand behind it. You should also realize that no one asked you to leave, we let you know that "freedom of speech" does not mean you can post vulgarities on someone else's website if they have rules prohibiting it - it means you are free to get you own website to voice whatever you feel in any manner you feel. Obstinate in my Webster's reads; unreasonably determined to have one's own way, stubborn, not yielding to reason. This being so, and the fact you make me want to "scream my head off" led me to use that word in the Alley post, where I still deem it proper. To me, you are very obstinate. Even this post I know will churn no worthwhile contingency of thought in you I'm sure. I, personally, just don't understand how you can feel so violated by what another man chooses to allow on HIS website. I can't go to McDonald's and demand speghetti because I like Italian food. How can you come in here and demand Ron to allow smut because it is to your taste? You can twist at mine and everyone else's words all you like but the points haven't changed. Your rights are in no manner violated. No one is forcing you to fit in a censored box, but if you choose to, then why so much whining over censorship when it, in fact, was your choice to participate. There's plenty of other boxes out there, or I will reiterate one more time, you're "free" to build your own. Michael [This message has been edited by Michael (edited 11-12-1999).] |
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desperado Member
since 1999-05-24
Posts 312FT Hood,Tx |
I'm sorry 1984. you crack me up. I just about laughed at your last comment. obviously you are ignorant and arrogant because you can't see that regardless of what view you look at something, you can always be brought to mass destruction. but seeing as how you don't think that ignorance and arrogance can do that only nail you coffin shut in my eyes. you are not an annoyance, but merely something to be looked on in abject humor. like a cloud in the sky that changes in to say... dogbert. an amusement and a retreat from normal reality. not worthy of any real reaction. so please stay. you humor me. please everyone, read this guys stuff and only laugh. he isn't that much to worry about. =-) |
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Skyfyre Senior Member
since 1999-08-15
Posts 1906Sitting in Michael's Lap |
I was hoping I would not find it necessary to involve myself in this incident, as I have nothing but respect for all of those who were involved ... though I know none of them personally. In that way, I suppose I have somewhat of an objective view of the situation. 1984, I have no idea what sites you frequent, nor do I desire to. Though I am an avid proponent of free speech in general, I admit that when it comes to what I like to read, write, and otherwise be exposed to, I have definite limits. That is why I do not visit porn sites, nor watch horror films, nor even watch the evening news -- I know I will find some things I see there distasteful. By the same token, that is exactly why I frequent Passions in Poetry -- I have recognized that there exists a set of limits here that closely mimic my own. Like it or not, 1984, we all have our own sense of morality, our own ideas about right and wrong, and our own set of tastes. With those in mind, we seek out people, places, and activities which adhere, more or less, to those precepts -- unless, of course, we seek to sow the seeds of controversy. It is precisely that "crop," rather than any other purpose you have touted here, which I believe you hoped to reap the fruits of when you posted this complaint. Do not assume from my assertion of personal morality that I am at all in support of any displays of intolerance. Indeed, I was one of the few who defended DreamEvil's rights to "free speech" following a barrage of attacks on one of his more controversial posts. It was not the opinions of the respondents, but rather the manner in which they were worded, which prompted me to rush to the author's defense. Just as there is no room at this site for the posting of filth for its own sake, there is no room for the posting of venom to express displeasure at having had one's sensibilities offended. My advice now, as it was then, is: "if you don't like it, keep scrolling." There is absolutely no call for the posting of direct personal attacks by anyone -- and that includes anonymous flag-wavers such as yourself. Your opinion is well enough, if you have the tenacity to stand behind it. If not, please do not waste your time stating it, because no one respects the wailings of a coward. This is Ron's home; he pays the bills, he keeps it clean. He is and has been a gracious host, even to those who oppose him. If you haven't the courtesy to wipe your feet at the proverbial door, I for one would be the first to volunteer to throw you out on your ... well, you believe in the right to expression ... I'll let you fill in the rest. Nocht |
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IsabelleSkye Member
since 1999-06-27
Posts 253 |
I really think the way everyone rallies around this site is incredible! I'm sorry that 1984 feels it necessary to stir up strife here, again so soon after the last episode. Just a thought tho, you know those neat little IP #'s? Does 1984's match anyone you know? *wink* The New Detective Izzzzy ------------------ "With love's light wings did I o'er-perch these walls; for stony limits cannot hold love out; and what love can do that dares love attempt." Romeo & Juliet Act II |
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Systematic Decay Senior Member
since 1999-09-15
Posts 1301That place with padded walls and funny people in white......... |
Issabelle, that is not a dead giveaway- Ip's can be changed by using a different computer or (I think) Internet service. And besides, what would we do if we did find out? Kick Him/her out of passions? Doreen, I have seen people berate Scott's work, simply because it is his, and that is exactly what Ron said, I'm not going to search and search for the links... If you don't think calling someones work "trash" without backing it up, or, better yet, using less biased and opinionated words, is an attack.....what DOES constitute an attack? ------------------ Thinking is just what a great many people think they are doing when they are merely rearranging their predjudices. |
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doreen peri Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812Virginia |
Systematic Decay, you said, "If you don't think calling someones work "trash" without backing it up, or, better yet, using less biased and opinionated words, is an attack.....what DOES constitute an attack? I guess an attack would be something like this, " "I think you're an asshole. You post some blatantly evil **** and I think you don't have a brain in your head! You're an ASS! And you are a sorry excuse for a human being! I hope my children don't grow up like you!" ...But since *nobody* said anything REMOTELY like that, but they only said THIS: "I think this... NO, I KNOW this... I hate the hate and anger and violence against women and children and people offend me!" Then, you can clearly see a difference between ATTACKING a PERSON vs. making a social comment strongly about the CONTENT of a piece. Do you catch my drift? --------------- I'm so tired of this... i'm going to bed... God bless you wonderful people. peace and love, doreen peri |
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Kelly Member
since 1999-07-03
Posts 145 |
Systematic Decay, Go back four months and read DE's work. I've had nothing but praise for his work. My comments were about this one piece. I will not take back my thoughts or apologize. I don't hate DE. I think he is very talented. I hate what HE chose to write about. |
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Big Brother New Member
since 1999-11-13
Posts 1 |
Is free speech an absolute? No. (enough said) Change may not always be good, but it is always inevitable. DE has said above that he has not retaliated for any "attacks". How did he get the enemies that Ron refers to in his reply to Christopher's Complaint? I didn't read the story, but since Doreen says she saw it at another site how can it be that bad? If it was horrible then how would it get posted? If someone could answer these questions, I would be able to reply more in depth since there seems to be gaps in the big picture. ------------------ |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
It amazes me that we're giving so much attention to someone who not only hides behind a new personna for the subversive purposes of this post (not to mention the "new" members appearing as their only supporters), but also refuses to reveal their true identity "unless others do the same". Ron Carnell hides nothing. He shows you his true face and stands tall behind his own eminently fair principles. Give him and the rest of us the the same courtesy or lay off the contumelious derision- Have you the guts to put your money where your mouth is, 1984? Nancy Ness Falmouth, Massachusetts naniness@capecod.net [This message has been edited by Nan (edited 11-13-1999).] |
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Munda Member Elite
since 1999-10-08
Posts 3544The Hague, The Netherlands |
I didn’t want to get involved in this topic. Nevertheless I feel now is the time to say something. 1984 : Yes, you are entitled to your own opninion. However it saddens me to see you didn’t have enough trust in the people around you to say you disagree under your known name. You may have been surprised with respect instead of the reactions you provoked by doing it this way. All of you sweet defending souls: It’s heartwarming to see how you all take a stand for Ron. I’m sure it’s appreciated a lot, but also keeping the wound open. I’m sure Ron didn’t like what happened any more than Scott and it seems to me they both want to get this over and done with and move on. By replying to this topic you keep sending it to the top over and over again. Maybe it should just disappear by not replying. Dream Evil: I understand what you are saying, perhaps.........ARGH...no perhaps, maybe, or what if ! What happened, happened and is in the past. It seems to me Ron and you are still friends, which pleases me and shows that despite different interpretations, opinions and views on life, you both found a way to deal with it, still respect each other and not let it stand in the way of your friendship. I think that’s admirable. I’m also glad to see you are still posting. I think you are a very gifted poet and am very glad you’re sharing your poems with us. Ron: I truly hope this will be the very last e-mail notification you will receive on this topic and for what it’s worth; I think you’re doing a great job. I pray these are indeed the last words spend on this topic. It has been argued, questioned and discussed from every point of view. THE END ?? Munda |
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Systematic Decay Senior Member
since 1999-09-15
Posts 1301That place with padded walls and funny people in white......... |
Doreen, since I didn't read this: "I think this... NO, I KNOW this... I hate the hate and anger and violence against women and children and people offend me!" Which I have no idea where it was said, and I only read this "I didn't read any of the replies because I'm sick to death of this subject. I see this site like a news paper with Ron as the editor. DE submitted trash and Ron edited it. End of story. I doubt any newspaper would print such trash so why does anyone expect Ron to allow it." Which is simply namecalling, maybe not to the author, but to the piece, I think she was attacking. To call something, anything, "trash" with no dispute, as if your word is the only opinion, is an attack. Kellly, I understand that you didn't like what DE worte....BUT, was it necessary to ATTACK it like that? Couldn't you have protested it in a more civil and mature way? I must agree that I too am sick to death of the subject, but I simply cannot sit back and watch while I have things to say, which may be selfish of me, but it is the way I am. So everytime I think, this will be the last thing I post on this topic, which I am doing now, I know that I will come back later to check this thread, and find a post that I just HAVE to rply to. So Ron, I apologize for adding an uneccessary email saying that you have a reply. ------------------ Thinking is just what a great many people think they are doing when they are merely rearranging their predjudices. |
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1984 New Member
since 1999-11-10
Posts 4 |
I, as the originator of this tempest, wish to move it towards closure. While I originally attempted, in some passion, to bring about protest and healthy discussion, it has instead become much too personal, and possibly effected several members of this site, which had no part in it whatsoever. I will admit to my share of culpability in that regard. In reading the posts, the thought of a "witch-hunt" came to mind. In order to exonerate the innocent, being know or anonymous, I will herein state who I am. The basis of my claims is that the creator of any work is above edit. Above moderation. They are not above criticism and comment, but are above edit in any form. This I consider a basic human right, so strongly that I cannot stand for it to be infringed upon. My basis for that is that I have been in many cultures, been in places I could not leave, detained even on the basis of my passport, had print media removed from me, and have been in political situations where free speech, as we in the States know it, would be criminal and subject to not the easiest of moderations. In the states, we see our freedoms as givens, which need not be proven again. We utilize our right to "opt-out" of free speech, and even free government. While people in many places in the world turn out in huge numbers, at their own personal risk, to exercise their free speech upon government, we in the states allow a minority to elect our officials while we have no risk whatsoever. Am I applying larger situations to that perhaps minute? I see no place where these things must always exist but firstly within the smaller groups where all things build or decay. Am I applying a moral too high? Perhaps, but I see no reason when a personal moral should be lowered- in any or all mediums. I am my own censor. Secondly, censorship leads to mediocrity. Several have made statements equating free speech to "smut", which I find somewhat interesting and arbitrary. In the censorship of art (albeit as presented) you will most surely reduce the level of objectionable and useless works that are visible. As well, you will stifle those that are breaking new ground, those that have real potential for evolution in art. The works of Whitman, Ginsberg, and even Poe, Salinger, Hemmingway, Chaucer, Shakespeare, Paine and so many others have been banned- or worse. Trials have been waged in courtrooms over what our children now find mandatory reading in public schools or colleges. The very basis of the art we call poetry was not made by those that fit established norms. Those writers took their hits from critics and the public alike yet challenged and broadened our mind for so many generations and centuries to come. Yet the works produced in societies with censorship was away quickly. Of soviet Russia, post Mao China, and the Third Reich, no works of excellence can be found, only those of challenge created in protest. Therein lies my stand. I will not post where the next Ginsberg will not be able to. So, therein, I sadly take that great american opt-out, and by virtue of a email copy of this to Ron, request that my name and postings, in their entirety be deleted. This is no great loss to the site, believe me. I have no great works nor any group to follow me. You shall have atleast one single obstinate protestor removed. As one who believes in non-violent protest and the challenge of change, and those issues shown again in protracted prose above, this is the only action I have. It should be made clear that I have only posted protest under this name, none other, and literally know none of the others involved in any way. Further, as has been my way as long as I have been posting anywhere (Since June, 1999 here) on the 'net, I have retained a single, exclusive name. No other than those two names have been the work of my hand or voice in any way shape or form. Of course those few that know me at all will know that I have never posted a single objectionable thing on any site, and have fought as well against negativism and where I can. Believing in free speech as well gives one the right to fight against that you find objectionable. My only request to Ron, is that if he must have a policy of censorship, that it be written, fully disclosed on the site and contain clear, concise and applicable verbiage to the new comer and resident alike. That I feel you owe to the public, but you have no liability (as pointed out by Michael) to do anything you wish not to. But perhaps morality and forthrightness is beyond liability. I will not further debate this here and leave you in peace with wishes of good fortune, and great beauty in your art. As for full disclosure, as requested, all are now welcome to know who I am and react as they see fit. I have no self-seen reputation to gain or uphold. "Boomtown" A/K/A H. Andrew Danforth, Personal email: Tristessa@start.com.au Office phone, usually voicemail (530) 685-5335 Arlington, Va, USA 13Nov99 |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
Andrew Thank you for coming forward. I respect you for doing that. You know that I also respect your philosophies... You also know how I feel about your poetry, and that I certainly don't want this site to lose you. I do wish you'd emailed me - Perhaps you'll be open to such discourse? |
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Kelly Member
since 1999-07-03
Posts 145 |
Systematic Decay, Have you ever been raped? I have. Maybe that's why I feel so strongly about this subject matter. |
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Systematic Decay Senior Member
since 1999-09-15
Posts 1301That place with padded walls and funny people in white......... |
Kelly, I am truly sorry you were raped, but was that Scott's fault? There were warnings that the story was explicit and offensive. You should have never read it, or once you read it, shouldn't have blamed scott. It's like walking across the street when the sign says don't walk and claiming it was someone else fault you were hit. And, once again, was it really necessary to call it trash? Even though you didn't like the content, it was very well written. So therefore, it isn't trash. It is a literary work, whether you liked the content or not. ------------------ Thinking is just what a great many people think they are doing when they are merely rearranging their predjudices. |
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DreamEvil Member Elite
since 1999-06-22
Posts 2396 |
Woe betide me, for I needs must reply again. Kelly I am sorry you have been raped. Most every female friend I have has been. That is where some of my inspiration for horror comes from. I have taken women to the hospital while they miscarried a child due to their husband's beatings. There is enough horror, but not enough awareness of it. If there were enough awareness of it, there would not be so few rapists going to jail, nor repeat offenders released. Why were some so vehemently wanting the removal of 1984 when he was anonymous, then asked him to stay once his identity was revealed? The same person with the same morals and beliefs, but popularity or notoriety or length of affiliation determines a complete turnaround in attitude towards him, that I find odd. As a side note, I wonder how many actually read Christopher's Complaint in its entirety. I wonder because, well let me quote an excerpt from it; quote: That is a direct quote from Ron, by the way. I am merely curious as to how many actually read it all. Though my opinion in this is of little note, I too would wish that Boomtown would stay. ------------------ Now and forever, my heart hears ~one voice~. DreamEvil© |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Rumble of Hate (for all my passionate friends) I heard a distant rumble of hate thundering on the hill Barbs of lightening sliced my heart Bringing pain from its ill will The battle raged before me Tears of sorrow welled in my eyes Cries of disbelief mingled With painful sobbing sighs Give hope a hand in someone’s life Reach out with love To end this strife Get along, live in peace Make this place A passionate surcease [This message has been edited by Poet deVine (edited 11-13-1999).] |
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Boomtown New Member
since 1999-07-01
Posts 4 |
Thank you, Nan, for your words of reconciliation. However, It seems that there would be little to discuss. I will not further post nor exist in a place that conflicts with my morality. Not can I ask the opposite of you. As well, as a rare posting member of a site, expect you to go to this McDonalds and ask for Swordfish steak, to paraphrase Michael. So I'll the counter behind and call it a day. Most of my works have been deleted as of this morning, with some help from your moderators, not so oddly. The rest shall be gone within a day or two. Again, I urge you to post prominantly the disclosure I wrote of in my last message. Easier to point to a statement of policy when the next Andrew comes along. I'll see you on the Scroll. A |
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Michael
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-13
Posts 7666California |
Well 1984, You keep saying this is the end and then you keep coming back for more. the "policy" was given you when you signed on as a member was it not? Or did you just not take the time to read it? I am finished with this. I surely can't wait till everyone else is. And just to keep the record straight - BOOMTOWN deleted his own poetry, then bumped the posts to the top of the forums with protest statements. I deleted the threads then, as the open forums are for poetry - not announcencements and not for protest statements. Michael [This message has been edited by Michael (edited 11-14-1999).] |
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doreen peri Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812Virginia |
Hey, Boomtown! Is that really you? LOL. I'm so glad you finally told us! I was going crazy trying to figure it out. God bless you for having such strong beliefs and convictions and stating them so succinctly. I knew this was someone I knew who knew how to write very well! (that's a lot of "knews" isn't it?) But the real news is that you've told us who you are and more than that, YOU LIVE IN ARLINGTON? Geez..... How come you didn't come to our little get together in September here in Virginia? Sure woulda been nice to meet you after so long. Well, I surely will see you at the Scroll, but y'know what? Although I understand you have strong beliefs and convictions and truly did follow every word you wrote here, we'll miss you here, my friend! I know you say you will not reconsider your take on posting here in the future, and I accept it, but wish you'd reconsider. After all, we are not talking about book burning like in "Fehrenheit 451" (sorry, can't spell that). We are really talking about the fact that Passions is a different type of "publication", if you will, than the Scroll or others.... it's like comparing People Magazine with The Rolling Stone (or something vague like that... hehehe... couldn't think of a really good analogy). If you want to read Scott's horror story, it is posted at Artistic Expressions bulletin board. If you e-mail me, I will send you the URL. So, you see? Another editor has chosen to let it stay, so it's not like you can't read it somewhere. Ok, Andrew, my colleague and friend, will see you soon at the Scroll and you take care, ok? Plus, I live very close to you if you ever want to meet for happy hour or something. doreen |
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Systematic Decay Senior Member
since 1999-09-15
Posts 1301That place with padded walls and funny people in white......... |
OK, I've noticed it too, Scott, your not alone. Why are some people so immediately forgiving when he revealed his identity.....Nan and Doreen, you two were absolutely furious, and now you are kind-hearted and hoping he will stay? However, I can't say I agree with his work being deleted...besides, what is the point, when it has just been proved he can VERY easily just come back as another, new member, if he so chooses. ------------------ Thinking is just what a great many people think they are doing when they are merely rearranging their predjudices. |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
Systematic Decay Please reread the comments posted here by both Andrew/Boomtown and myself. While I did not delete anything of Boom's, and I really don't want to see any of it deleted - he did, in fact, request here within this thread that he wanted his work removed. I respect his wishes. It's his work and his choice. I was never angry at Andrew for expressing his opinions. He has an absolute right to feel them and to state them. I have had a positive rapport with this man for well over a year, and I totally expect that will continue. We can disagree - and still respect each other and remain friends. I do wish that he had used his own "posting" name, so that we could have had a more productive discussion in this thread. This, again, is simply my opinion. Had he posted as "Boomtown", I would have had a better understanding of the basis of his comments. My personal opinion is that pseudonyms are "fun" to use for frolicsome ventures such as the insanity in the 'stute. However, you'll never see me post a serious poem or comment under anything other than my own name. People know my attitudes and base their interpretations of my comments on their knowledge of my previous postings. If I were to step in and make comments with a totally new pseudonym, I would not have my personal recognizance to stand upon. As wonderfully idealistic is it may be that we should be judged on the credibility of the moment, I learned long ago that our past words and actions make us what we are today. My response in this thread was not an angry one. It was posted rather to stand in support of a very dear friend whose personal philosophies have built this wonderful home for nearly 1700 poets (less some nebulous number of Justin's et.al.). I will never post a comment on these forums that's motivated by the impulse of negative emotion. I will, however, always support Ron's eminently fair expectations of the members here at Passions. [This message has been edited by Nan (edited 11-14-1999).] |
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DreamEvil Member Elite
since 1999-06-22
Posts 2396 |
Curious it is that when I ask the self-same questions as Sys does, I receive no response. Smacks of extreme hypocrisy it does, but then so much else does as well. The story is posted at an even half dozen sites. All of them are respected sites and none have had the result of having me removed, nor has there been a concerted effort to have me quit posting to those sites. In fact, many have hailed my talent as a storyteller in the horror genre. I had thought horror was a valid literary genre. On that note, many of the books and movies today written in that genre have no clearly defined resolution of Good over Evil. If there was, then the sequel business wouldn't be one for long. Just a thought to end this; How many nursery rhymes that are bloody can you think of? Hansel and Gretel, Red Riding Hood, Beauty and The Beast, Ring Around The Rosy, those fit I think. Political correctness has never been my strong suit. For those who would prefer to see the scope of non-fictional horror that is more human than supernatural, or those that realize Good does not always triumph over Evil, please hit the following link. Serial Killer Bureau If any are offended by this link, please notify me and I will remove the truth from this post. Now that this thread has degenerated from the topic of censorship and free speech, I pray that this thread be allowed to fall into archival oblivion. ------------------ Now and forever, my heart hears ~one voice~. DreamEvil© [This message has been edited by DreamEvil (edited 11-14-1999).] |
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doreen peri Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812Virginia |
Ummm..... Systematic Decay.... I'm going to suggest the same thing Nan did.... please read my posts again. I have not posted ANYTHING that was "absolutely furious". During this whole civilized discussion/debate, I have adamently expressed my opinion, yes, but was never "absolutely furious" at anybody. Nope. On the contrary, I have stated repeatedly that I understood the difference of opinion however it was MY opinion that I had not every seen any personal slander here, but instead, people have differing tastes in content. And btw, not ONE person has e-mailed me a link or directed me toward a location of posts by any parties who have supposedly slandered DE or personally attacked him. Nope, not one. Where is the evidence of this? That's all I wanted to see. If he was personally attacked, I never saw it. All I saw was people saying they didn't like the content of his posts. Yes, Scott's piece made me sick. It was my opinion that it had no redeeming qualities as literature. So sue me. I have nothing against Scott. Never have. It's not something I would choose to read. And IMHO, Ron has full control and rights to decide what he will allow to be posted on HIS website. I have been kind to DE, AND 1984, and ALL parties during this everlasting eternal debate which seems like it will go on FOREVER!!! There comes a point in time to agree to disagree. That's what I've been saying all along. The deal is, though, I don't like when my words are misread or worse... NOT READ. So, when I see someone didn't understand what I said, I keep coming back to explain it again. Maybe I'm a lousy writer, y'think? Maybe my writing is not clear enough. I dunno. I just feel compelled to set things straight when i see someone misundertsood my verbiage. Similarly, if I don't understand what another is saying, I come back and ask for clarification. Isn't that what debate is all about? Go back and read what I wrote during this and then come back here and quote even ONE sentence that I wrote that reflected I was "absolutely furious" at Mr. 1984, who we now know is Boomtown. Nope. You won't find even one. You will find my frustration that Andrew hid behind a pseudonym rather than revealing his true identity. And now that I know who it is, I thanked him for finally coming forward which was the right thing to do. "Absolutely furious"? LOL. No way. I think not. I'm just the type of person who stands strong in my own beliefs, just like Boomtown, and I respect EVERYONE who has strong convictions which they stand by. This is why I respect Ron so much, too. If people who disagree have such strong convictions are able to finally come to terms with each other and agree to disagree while agreeing to respect each other, well, then... this world will be a better place. Maybe, one person at a time, we can bring more tolerance to the world. Maybe we can all live in peace, harmony and love one day. Remember this? "What would happen if someone threw a war and nobody came?" Uh oh... my hippieness is showing (damn... and I tried so hard to keep my age to myself! Darnit! So, go back and read, my friend. And when you read, read with an open mind and remember this.... When I was in High School AND in college, I wrote articles for a "Free Press" we decided to start (as well as poems and short stories for an "alternative" literary magazine). I have always believed that if the status quo will not accept certain viewpoints, you can either find another venue which WILL accept it, or you can start your own. And so we did. And btw, EVERY word I have entered in this thread I stand by.... every one of them... I don't mince words, as you can tell... I sometimes talk on and on and on and it's ALL straight from the heart. I wouldn't change a word I said above had I known that Boomtown was really 1984. Honesty is something I've never had a problem with. It comes really natural for me. Just like DE said, it would be nice if people would take the time to actually READ, rather than skim before they respond. Thank you all again! Have a great day! And if any of you happens to pass by Virginia, maybe we can meet for happy hour and hash this thing out in person over a nice cold Marguerita. Afterward, we'll have a good laugh, a seafood dinner, and maybe a game of pool. (you coming, Balladeer? hehehe... oh whoops.. you weren't even involved in this debate) your friend and fellow writer,doreen peri [This message has been edited by doreen peri (edited 11-14-1999).] |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
OK, everybody, recess is over...time to go back inside now. It is my hope that everyone has played nicely and that nobody hit anyone else over the head with that great big yellow Tonka truck too many times, and that no-one fell off the jungle gym, and that no-one got too seriously ill and disoriented from the merry-go-round (why it is called that I may never know). FYI, this thread will not be edited by me, nor deleted, though I could, if'n I so desired. But this is not what I wish to be...I rather enjoyed the initial debate, but lost interest when speakers choose to interject their own biographies into the discussion, thereby nullifying any discourse currently in progress. Oh well...maybe next time. Alicat, the weary persnikitty |
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doreen peri Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812Virginia |
Gee whiz, Ali! You couldn't mean you weren't interested in my autobiographical information about an underground venue for literary works during HS & college? Was that what you thought didn't follow? Nah! Couldn't be. That followed. It must've been something someone else said, not me. I abhor non sequitur responses. ROFLMAO... everybody knows that about me. dp |
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Systematic Decay Senior Member
since 1999-09-15
Posts 1301That place with padded walls and funny people in white......... |
Doreen and Nan, I will apologize for my misuse of words. No, neither of you were outraged in any way....however, I saw some negative things, which promptly dissapeared once the author's identity was brought forward. Here, I will quote so that there is no confusion. Doreen, Although you didn't say anything directly negative to 1984, the beginning of your initial reply had a negative drift to it....maybe I interpreted it wrong, and if so, I apoloqize.: "Out of the clear blue sky, in comes "1984" with all kinds of complaints and opinions about Passions of Poetry. Let me ask you, "1984".... how much time to you spend at Passions?" Nan, you seemed so insistent that whoever the author of this post was should go- here is a quote from your initial reply:" If you'd like to move over there, I'm sure they'd love to have you. Just email me for the URL." Here, you were basically saying, here's a less worthy site, go there instead. And this speaks for itself:"Unfortunately, there are always ingrates who feel the need to put a monkey wrench into a fine-tuned machine. I, for one, am very glad that we can toss them out the door and lock them out." Nan, here too are two quotes of yours that contradict each other. In your first reply:"I cannot and will not allow any disparagement of his philosophies on "free speech" to be posted without my own remand." This makes it seem that you had a problem with him posting his opinion. But, her is another quote from your latest reply:"I was never angry at Andrew for expressing his opinions. He has an absolute right to feel them and to state them." Your attitude did a 180 when you knew who it was. Now, you have no problem with him.......and would be happy to have him stay. Doreen, I feel that I have misread your comments, much more than I have Nan's, and for that I apologize. But Nan, you clearly contradict yourself as soon as 1984 became Boomtown, based on the fact that "I have had a positive rapport with this man for well over a year, and I totally expect that will continue. We can disagree - and still respect each other and remain friends." I have one last thing to say; had this post been started by Scott, under another alias- how long do you think it would be before he was banned from passions altogether? I only wish I could say this is the end, I'm done with this. But I have the feeling this crazy debate is far from over. **sigh** ------------------ Thinking is just what a great many people think they are doing when they are merely rearranging their predjudices. [This message has been edited by Systematic Decay (edited 11-14-1999).] |
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doreen peri Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812Virginia |
Thank you, Systematic Decay, for taking the time to scroll up and read my previous posts. Yes, at the beginning, I made this comment: "Out of the clear blue sky, in comes "1984" with all kinds of complaints and opinions about Passions of Poetry. Let me ask you, "1984".... how much time to you spend at Passions?" This commnet was to show that I was astounded that someone who I'd never heard of seemed to know so much about the postings and problems of Passions and have such strong opinions about it...and after I thought this entire subject was over a week ago. This was simply my way of asking who 1984 really was.... whether the person using that pen name was a frequent visitor of Passions and whether it was someone we all knew hiding behind a name. It was my way of asking the person posting as 1984 to be honest with everyone about his identity. I'm very glad Andrew decided to finally tell everyone it was him. -doreen |
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Systematic Decay Senior Member
since 1999-09-15
Posts 1301That place with padded walls and funny people in white......... |
Doreen, here is a link to Scott's poem, Loving Wife Loving Wife Here is a link to a prose piece by Severn, Schizophrenia, which is very similar to Scott's in subject matter. Compare the replies. Schizophrenia ------------------ Thinking is just what a great many people think they are doing when they are merely rearranging their predjudices. |
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doreen peri Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812Virginia |
Hello again, SD... thank you for the links. I just sat here and read both... several times. I remember the DE poem called "Loving Wife" because I was one of the ones who responded to it. I didn't read the other prose piece by Severn until now. First, I do not think any of the responses to DE were personally attacking. All the "negative" responses were referring to the content, IMHO. The piece by Severn was very moving and although there are similarities, as you suggest, in subject matter, the pieces are quite different in content. The BIG difference is that Severn's piece showed a great deal of love for her mother. DE's piece did not show ANY underlying love. I believe some of the responses to DE's piece were very negative because the words suggested that schizophrenia was to be loathed and made his wife out to be some kind of monster. Contrarily, the content of Severn's piece referred repeatedly to the mother she loved, despite the illness, and how she wished she could have that mother back. It's hard to explain, but my humble opinion is that when the general public is confronted by hatred, they react negatively. When they are confronted by love, they react positively. This is very overly simplified. But if you read both pieces yourself again AND the responses, you can hopefully see what I'm trying to say. The biggest issue is whether ANY of the comments to Scott's post personally attacked or berated him as a person. And I don't think that happened at all. I think the negative reaction was to how the verbiage spoke of the illness in terms of hatred without a bit of love behind it. There were no negative comments to Scott as a person, IMHO. Thanks again for listening. Hopefully we can all realize that people see things differently and let this go. To all, I apologize if my posts here were lengthy and if you were tired of hearing from me. -dp |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
My Dear Miss Systematic DeBergerac Kindly do not put inferences of my own words into my mouth. I say what I mean and I mean what I say... It's that simple. Allow me to reiterate my words which have been haphazardly removed from my context.
Do you happen to notice the key words "If you'd like"??? I do not imply, nor should you infer any insistence of any kind on my part.
This is a generalization - I made no specific allusions to individuals. Do NOT infer otherwise. I said, "I cannot and will not allow any disparagement of his philosophies on "free speech" to be posted without my own remand." You, Miss Decay, said, "This makes it seem that you had a problem with him posting his opinion." ....Not so - This comment obviously states that I will express my own opinion on this issue. Do NOT infer otherwise.
My attitude did no turns whatsoever. Please refer to my above entry for a complete explanation. Do not EVER interpret MY words as anything other than what is clearly stated therein. [This message has been edited by Nan (edited 11-14-1999).] |
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RainbowGirl Member Elite
since 1999-07-31
Posts 3023United Kingdom |
Heck...aren't you guys busy when my back is turned...I know, you just wanted to give me something to read when I came back..*g* 1984 I can't help but ask myself why you have such a conviction but choose to post under an alias...well, ok, we all do or most post under one but why not under the recognised one, surely it would have given your case more emphasis, no? As for everyone else...Freedom of Speech surely has to be something that means something different to each of us but I would like to think that it means taking into consideration what others think and most of all that we are able to debate a point rather than attack the owner for his/her beliefs... I think that this is Ron's home and we've all be invited into it and much like when someone comes to my home, they follow my rules...i.e...I hate swearing and so, no one swears in my house...enuff said!..*g* I think everyone should have a group HUG! HUGS ------------------ You give but little when you give of your possessions. It is when you give of yourself that you truly give. |
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Systematic Decay Senior Member
since 1999-09-15
Posts 1301That place with padded walls and funny people in white......... |
"Unfortunately, there are always ingrates who feel the need to put a monkey wrench into a fine-tuned machine. I, for one, am very glad that we can toss them out the door and lock them out." Nan, why would you make this comment, on this post, after what was said, had it not been aimed at 1984? Who was it aimed at then? If there are always ingrates, give me some examples to prove it was not aimed at 1984. I just think it is quite a coincidence that you say something like that....(which if it wasn't aimed at 1984, is quite an irrelevant statement) and then you were perfectly satisfied with the fact that it had been Boomtown...sure, a bit upset, but perfectly willing to have him stay, when before, you had, either irrelevantly (which I don't think someone of your stature would do, but then I didn't think you'd resort to name calling either)or towards Andrew, stated the above. And, may I ask, why did you call me that name, and what exactly did you mean by it? Certainly not that someone else was telling me what to say in my replies...(?) NO...not a moderator....one of the "police officers" of the site......Why would someone as respected as yourself resort to calling names? I simply can't fathom any reason for it.....other than to imply something you thought I wouldn't catch....do you think that even if I didn't understand it, I would simply say, "Oh, I'll just forget it?" NO! I asked several people I know on icq what it meant, and got the impression that I spoke of above. Please, please explain to me WHY you did that. And why is it that you only resort to name calling after I directly quote your contradictions? And everyone ignored my previous question...what if it had been Scott who had posted that? ------------------ Thinking is just what a great many people think they are doing when they are merely rearranging their predjudices. |
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Systematic Decay Senior Member
since 1999-09-15
Posts 1301That place with padded walls and funny people in white......... |
Nan- It has been brought to my attention that I have yet again misinterpreted you- I misinterpreted the name you gave me- I apologize, though I still stand by my observations on your comments. I am truly sorry, for not REALLY listening to the explaination of the character.... One last thing-THIS CONTROVERSY IS DESTROYING PASSIONS....ALL OF THE CONTROVERSY- LETS JUST END IT HERE. TO ANYONE i OFFENDED, OR MISREAD, OR MISINTERPRETED, I AM SORRY! SO LETS JUST STOP IT ALL NOW. I AM (FINALLY) DONE WITH THIS TOPIC, MY LAST WORDS ARE I'M SORRY I EVER GOT INVOLVED, AND IMSORRY IT SEEMS PASSIONS HAS BECOME THIS WAY. I WILL FROM NOW ON POST IN A THREAD SUCH AS THIS ONLY WHEN ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, TO INCLUDE A VIEW NO ONE ELSE HAS MENTIONED. I AM DONME WITH THIS ONE.....EVERYONE JUST LISTEN TO RG, HUG, AND MAKE UP....I FEEL LIKE A FOOL FOR EVEN AHVING GOTTEN INVLOVED, WHEN I COULD HAVE BEEN READING POETRY. -AMY- ------------------ Thinking is just what a great many people think they are doing when they are merely rearranging their predjudices. |
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Elizabeth Santos Member Rara Avis
since 1999-11-08
Posts 9269Pennsylvania |
1984, You have total freedom of thought and freedom to write anything you want, but once you subject that writing to the public eye there comes a innate responsibility to the sensitivity of the beholder in a society. Total freedom as you wish it is not accepted in just any society, that's why we protect our children from pornography by a form of censorship, that's why Ron has every right to "censor" whatever he deems necessary from this sight. I don't even understand why there would be a question about this. We are in HIS website. He has opened the door, he has a right to close it. And we have a choice to comply with his standards, to present our work on a site that does accept it, or to construct a site of our own. We still have freedom. You are obviously extremely intelligent and I would love to read some of your poetry. Liz |
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Isis Member Ascendant
since 1999-09-06
Posts 6296Sunny Queensland |
I'll just add a bit here, late as always. This is all so simple, Ron's home, Ron's rules, if we don't like them tough. Either put up with them or leave. The forum rules work well they must have as Passions has lasted this long. Like any diplomatic place, there must be rules in order for it to work. Simple. Let your heart guide you. It whispers, so listen closely. ~Isis~ (Sovereign of the Spirit) |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Hey. Well, I haven't been here very long, but I have to agree with censorship of profane poetry. All Ron and the other moderators have asked of us is that we hold up the morals that we already uphold (or should uphold), and respect our fellow poets and the readers of this forum. Most of us do not want to read profane poetry. My father goes through the history of pages I visit every day, and if I went to a profane poem on accident, he would block this webpage, and that's the last thing I want! And as of your "freedom of speech"... well, you would never begin cursing if you visited a church or a session of Congress or anything like that unless you had very bad manners. What would happen if you did this? You would get the boot, of course. Why should it be any diffrent here? Well, there's my opinion. "To the world you may be one person, but to one person you may be the world" |
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Boomtown New Member
since 1999-07-01
Posts 4 |
LOL...The ironic thing is that my works- and screen name have NOT been deleted. I requested this in light of the commercialization of the site, the moderation of it's words, the restriction of freespeech that is ART. Is the growth or death of art. Such moderation never effected me, but it MAY someday. MAY is enough for me. I shall not exist quietly within that. Despite my request to Ron, Nan and Michael via email in November 1999, my limited works (dating back to when it had 30 members) and name exist. This is 3 months later, and I still see this discussion is going on. And, I'm still able to post here. Why? Live free..write free. or live with the consequences. Your choice. I made mine and standed up for it. Now you can leave my name- and my works and have an interesting advisary in this cause of "niceness" (which I live too, but should not have to) or you can get rid of me. Your choice, moderators. Make a stand. |
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Craig Member
since 1999-06-10
Posts 444 |
Boomtown I can only presume that your request for the deletion of your works was not received by Ron or the moderators and feel sure that now it has been highlighted your wishes will be executed in short order. Perhaps it would be worthwhile requesting the removal of your work again just to be sure the message has been received correctly. Yes, I admit your general rule. That every poet is a fool: But I myself may serve to show it. That every fool is not a poet. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
First, Boomtown, I think you are misremembering: I have personally never received any email from you. And when you joined Passions, there were 247 people in front of you, not 30. Second, your Username wasn't disabled simply because you never broke any rules that required it being disabled. Expressing an opinion in a civilized manner was not, is not, and never will be against the rules. When you went back and edited those opinions, however, you crossed over that line. I never explicitly asked you to post your poetry at Passions. I never asked you to express your opinions. When you did so, though, you invited discussion and response. A dialog between yourself and the other Members of Passions. Returning later to change your words, several days after that discussion had been resolved, impacts not just your side of the dialog. It impacts both sides. Your actions rob the responses you invited of their meaning, whether in part or in whole. You choose to see it as a protest. But it doesn't hurt me, the object of your protest. It only hurts the people you engaged in dialog. Protest? Or simple bad manners? I chose not to enter this discussion previously because it was obvious from the beginning that nothing I said was going to change your mind. I chose to agree to disagree, rather than try to argue against platitudes preached in a microcosm. The truth is, you and I are not in as large a disagreement as you might think. I, too, believe in freedom. There are plenty of places on the Internet, such as the Scroll, that allow and even encourage glorifications of smut and hate. That's freedom. But there are also plenty of places, such as Disney, that choose to lend their names only to the precepts they believe promote harmony and discourage hate. And that is freedom, too. Were someone to come along and argue that all the Scrolls on the Internet should be shut down, I suspect you and I would stand shoulder to shoulder in protest, Boomtown. It is only when someone comes along and argues that Disney must allow bigotry, wanton violence, and persecutions that you and I would disagree. I will not lend my name or efforts to a site that allows personal attacks. Period. That simple rule accounts for about 99 percent of what you choose to call censorship. The remaining one percent - which represent about four works of "art" out of some 30,000 - were glorifications of rape, child abuse or suicide. And again, I will not lend my name or efforts to a site that promotes people hurting people. Nor will I apologize for it. Your poetry has been deleted, Boomtown. Sadly, the responses to your poetry were necessarily deleted as well. Does that mean your request in effect caused those people who posted honest responses to be censored? I'm not sure it's fair that one Member can implicitly ask to have the words of another deleted. Nor am I sure it's fair that a Member can edit the meaning of their words and, in doing so, subtly change the meaning of a dialog. Unfortunately, in the interests of freedom, there are rarely any easy answers. The contents of this thread, and certainly this theme, could perhaps warrant a great deal more discussion. It might well wend its way into 2001, and I definitely don't want to discourage that discussion. But, not surprisingly, this thread has also grown excessively long, now taking several minutes just to load. I encourage anyone who would like to address these concerns to start a new thread, referencing back to this one. I am closing this thread, because of its length, but the discussion is free to continue. |
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