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What is Grammar?
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What is Grammar? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I was reading through the comments on attracting more people to this forum and a couple things struck me as odd. Why is grammar considered boring? Why is it that most people seem to feel that there are those in the 'know' and that almost never includes them? How do you get to be in the 'know'? Why is it that when someone discusses cars or computers or cash, they will use arcane terminology that you have to be in the 'in' to understand, but if you do the same thing with language, it's considered boring or, even worse, actually rude? Language is our interest, why aren't people interested in it? Why does everyone seem to think that grammar is always a cut and dry, yes or no, black or white issue? Am I being too repetitive here?  Why don't people care about spelling? What is the difference between grammar and usage? Between grammar and style? Why don't people ask why a grammar rule is there in the first place? Do they even know a grammar rule when they see one? Yeah, it's any use of acane terminology referring to language that generally makes your eyes glaze over because you aren't going to change the way you speak and, following that, the way you write. Does anybody realize that a lot of rules spouted on the internet and even by people I've worked with are simply made up explanations for why we do things in the first place? (I'm not talking about Nan of course). Yeah, people make these things up. Some rules are logically based, some are convention based but a lot of it is made up conjecture. I once talked to a PhD grammarian (he was American)in Japan over sushi and beer. He explained to me that he could correct everything I said. He didn't. When I asked him how much he corrects in an English as a Second Language class, he replied that he didn't. Why? Again, why is grammar boring? Is it that somewhere along the line, most people have a sense that grammar is a system of rules that you MUST follow in order to be considered a writer? If, after they learn this, they read a novel or a poem that doesn't follow those rules, that works just as well, do they, somewhere, somehow, begin to believe it is some kind of facade, some kind of joke, that the school system has covertly used to keep people from becoming real writers? What is grammar designed to do? Instead of relying on others to give the answers, why don't we start asking questions concerning grammar and start answering them in a way that makes sense? Why don't we all do a little research? I'll begin with a few questions: Why is the split infinitive incorrect? "To boldly go where no man has gone before" Why is a double negative incorrect? "I don't not like you." Why is subject/verb agreement important? "He go to school tomorrow." Why is the word "hopefully" almost always used incorrectly? "Hopefully, somebody will respond to this post." It seems to me that any of these rules are debatable (yes, even the subject/verb agreement rule although to break that one legitimately is a kind of cheap trick.) dependent on the intention of the speaker or the writer. The point I'm trying to make here is that grammar rules aren't really rules as such (they're not a formula) but understanding why we have them, understanding why the 'feel' of a piece will change depending on your reliance of conventions is an important aspect of what you want to do as a writer. Will this help attract more people to this forum? I don't know but it's something I've wanted to say for a long time. Brad |
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Romy Senior Member
since 2000-05-28
Posts 1170Plantation, Florida |
Why is grammar considered boring? There are so many "do’s and don'ts", so many rules! It can become overwhelming and intimidating to try to remember them all! Why is it that most people seem to feel that there are those "in the know" and that almost never includes them? Those that can draw from a broader vocabulary are better able to express themselves by simply having more choices. With good grammar, there is less chance of being misinterpreted but at the same time, if the vocabulary is too technical or sophisticated, it can shut a lot of us out! Do they even know a grammar rule when they see one? Probably not. You must first know the rules to break them, right? Why is a split infinitive incorrect? Is it incorrect? This is what I found. "The split infinitive occurs naturally in speech and should be allowed in written communication as well". Grammarians who were trying to make English more like Latin invented the "rule" against the split infinitive. If you insist on "boldly to go" instead of "to boldly go", you call attention to the "correctness" of the word at the expense of the meaning, while harming the natural flow of your sentence. The placement of words significantly affects meaning. Words like "quickly" and "boldly" need to go next to the word to which they most closely relate and which they modify. It is more pleasing to the ear. Why would we want to eliminate one of those to follow a rule that has no basis in logic? Why is a double negative incorrect? It’s repetitive and unnecessary for one. Why is subject/verb agreement important? A singular subject must have a singular verb; a plural subject must have a plural verb. The verb must agree with the subject. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
quote: I don't know about the facade so much, but I think a good portion of the first part may truly apply - I know I always felt that way... I've often worried that since I'm not formally educated, it will decrease my chances. But as you also point out, many/most of the authors that are published don't necessarily follow these "rules." And if they do, they change them/ ignore them seemingly at whim. I think this direct contradiction leads many not so much to worry about a hidden plot, but rather to wonder "why bother?" What is the point when they're obviously contradictory? *shrug* C [This message has been edited by Christopher (edited 10-25-2000).] |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Good questions, Brad. I'm printing them out and will be back later. Jim P.S. I didn't think "Schoolhouse Rock" was boring and one of my favorite bits was: quote: Or something like that. Back later. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Brad, You make some many very worthy points. I wish I had said all that as I have to agree with them all. That said though, I have to agree with Debbie on the split infinitive thing. But Debbie, I feel, "to go boldly" works somewhat better than "boldly to go" although you point is still well taken. "To boldly go" just says it better than any of the practical alternatives. Therefore, the split infinitive rule is justifiably broken in this instance. I think the same logic allows one to do so whenever a similar need arises. However, it is a technique which must be used in moderation. Imagine the result of doing so excessively. To blatantly ignore the rule, to too often ignore and to regularly interject an adverb or other part into the verb would be to sorely abuse the language. Get the point? Well, time to go for the day. I may have more to say tomorrow. Thanks for submitting, Brad. Pete |
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Romy Senior Member
since 2000-05-28
Posts 1170Plantation, Florida |
I think I tend to write in the same manner that some play the piano...by ear! And there will always be circumstances where rules in grammar can be bended a little to suit a purpose...after all isn't language always changing a little at a time? Thanks Brad for the really great questions to ponder on! |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Ahhhhh, grammar... Here's my stance on the boring part...(this prolly sounds arrogant ~shrug~ it's what I think) Personally, I think that for many it transcends simplistic boredom and extends, like Debbie says, into intimidation. Because the majority of people in the world resent intimidation (me for one lol), the idea of grammar as intimidating is translated into boredom - a much easier explanation and one that prevents the fear from being challenged - or acknowledged. In the know? Definitely higher education. 'Everyone' who has higher education knows about grammar by default. Pah. Spelling...I suppose it's a changing thing really - depends if you for prescriptivism or descriptivism. I personally resent spelling changes (unless I make them up lol). I am entrenched! I must be rescued! The 'I don't not like you' thingeewhatsit... Two negatives cancel each other out. 'I don't like you' with a 'not' inserted into it literally means I DO like you. Outta the time thing.... K"He looked across the silky surface of the Severn... it was a famously difficult river with fierce tides..." From Jack Maggs |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
grate two sea yew hear drab .....seriously ..it is .. first (and last for now) "why is grammar considered boring?" .. not so much boring perhaps as irrelevant. we've been through the "use of english" discussion and the effect of the internet and e-mail etc etc before in philosophy or was it the alley or CA and this is part of the same debate maybe. really, why bother with what many consider to be archaic and restrictive "rules"? i mean, we are contemporary poets right? at the coal face of linguistic expression and development, right? why should be want to be constrained by regulations which restrict our creativity and freedom of expression? where would the beatles be without "I don't want your love no more"! and anyway these so called rules seem to change over time, so why can we just speed up the changes a little by making our own? so I say irrelevant, rather than boring......no? Philip PS just stalling till i can nip down to cambridge university press to pick up a decent book on grammar, which I've now done.....lol PPS oops ..i just read your last few paragraphs brad, and regrettably i find myself agreeing with you again - who's changing here? i even like whisky these days ..lol [This message has been edited by Poertree (edited 10-26-2000).] |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Brad: Grammar is an extension of verbal behavior that connects us with our social environment. Grammar is ultimately governed by the ear ... what sounds best ... if splitting the infinitive improves the sound of the sentence or phrase, then splitting the infinitive is justified. If you can omit "that" from a sentence and doing so is not offensive to the ear, omit "that". "I know that you can write a sonnet." or "I know you can write a sonnet." The decision is often arbitrary and grammatical norms tend to change with time because our social environment changes with time. The grammatical rule does not govern the social environment ... our social environment governs the grammatical rule. This is not to say that good grammatical usage is not a worth-while skill to acquire. As I mentioned early, grammar is an extension of the verbal behavior that connects us with our social environment. What does that mean? Without a verbal repetoire, we are essentially cut off from those who share our social space. The use of conventionally acceptible grammar not only reflects how others perceive our level of intelligence (granting that this is an imperfect test of intelligence), it also provides us with common, interpretive ground. In other words, we are "speaking the same language". What is the difference between grammar and style? As I said twice before, grammar is an extension of the verbal behavior that connects us with our social environment. Writing is communication. Creative, expressive writing, as Strunk & White put it, is an increment in writing ... it is a revelation of the personality and mind of the writer. I would say that style is the way a writer uses the language (or grammar, diction, etc.) to express his or her self. Grammar and style, in many ways and to many people, is like philosophy. Everyone thinks but not everyone feels particularly excited about reading Plato's "Republic" or Camus' "Resistence, Rebellion and Death". Another analogy ... everyone who drives does not have an interest in knowing how the car stops when they push on the brake pedal or how to change their car's oil. "I am disinterested" is what many people really mean when they say "grammar is boring". But I don't think that wanting to improve your grammar and usage necessarily means that you must go out and pick up the latest tome on grammatology. I suggest reading voraciously. Condition your ear to the way people write and you will develop an ear for good grammar in your own writing. Running out of time. ($%&@!#) Back later. Jim P.S. Great thread, Brad. Not boring in the least. [This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 10-26-2000).] |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
quote: or spelling break brake.....  sorry jim couldn't resist, it's all the interaction with christopher. actually you make some good points, especially: "I suggest reading voraciously. Condition your ear to the way people write and you will develop an ear for good grammar in your own writing." i think my grammar is reasonable (not "perfect" by any means) and i never read a "grammar" book in my life - till brad posted this thread and gave me an inferiority complex, and then I went and bought one - are you telling me I wasted my cash? ......lol P |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
~sigh~ Been a long day. Give a guy a brake, will ya? Stinkin', smart-aleck engineers. Jim |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
quote: I don't know. The double negative is used for emphasis in the Spanish Language: "No, no quiero bailar." -- is an emphatic "I don't want to dance." In English conversation, double negatives are often used for similar effect: "No, I didn't do it." quote: Noun/verb agreement indicates that there is a relationship between the two words ... not isolated responses occurring together. Noun/verb agreement is a useful devise, in this sense. "He goes/to school tomorrow" emphasises the relationship between "goes" and "to school tomorrow". If you alter the sentence a little bit, you can see what problems a lack of agreement can cause. "Brad go to school tomorrow." Without punctuation and noun/verb agreement, how do we know whether this is your wife telling you to go to school or a comment she is making on the phone to her parents? "Brad, go to school tomorrow!" "Brad goes to school tommorrow." quote: Because more people are not annoyed by the non-sense of this use than those who are and, therefore, it is overlooked much of the time. This is fun. Be back later. Jim [This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 10-27-2000).] |
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Ron K. Fox Senior Member
since 2000-10-24
Posts 925 |
i don't think grammar is boring... kept grandpa happy all these years. |
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Romy Senior Member
since 2000-05-28
Posts 1170Plantation, Florida |
Cute Ron...LOL, but you didn't capitalize your I... |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
LOL@Debbie!  |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
Picking on Mr. Fox here..... It would also seem that "Grandpa" should be capitalized, since the reference is your grandfather's name. If you had said "my grandpa," then no capital would be necessary.... Geesh - We can get nasty in here, can't we? Sorry, Ron - I couldn't resist... We've gotta break you in writely here...  |
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angelface Junior Member
since 2000-10-25
Posts 40Savannah area, Georgia |
I, too, believe you must read A LOT of books to strengthen your vocabulary, and also write a lot. I recently turned 20, and my vocabulary, diction, writing skills, etc. were much better when I was in high school, attending classes and writing papers. I also filled up notebooks of poetry and journals. It was good practice for figuring out how to jump off the block. I don't know about all of the technical stuff (they tried to teach it, even make me diagram sentences), but in some instances "breaking the rules" actually heightens the credibility and greatness of the story. "The Color Purple," "Black Boy," "Catch-22," possibly even Kurt Vonnegut all exemplify this. I don't claim to be a splendiferous writer, but I know some people don't care about their grammar (consider the whole of the population beneath the Mason-Dixon, and I can rightly say this because I live in southeastern georgia) or spelling or any other "rule" people should adhere to. It irritates the eggs out of me to no end, I must say. thank you for the post, Brad...it's good to know there ARE people out there who care about language and how it's misused. ps if any of my blatherings made any sense, I commend you for seeing through my 2-years-out-of-college-logic  ___________________________ I'd rather fail trying to do something spectacular than fail being conservative...I suppose that means I'll always be a little out there, but I don't mind... --Ben Affleck |
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Jamie Member Elite
since 2000-06-26
Posts 3168Blue Heaven |
It's all the fault of that Philo T Farnsworth. Language skills have been deteriorating since 1927.  Jamie Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito. - Virgil. "Yield thou not to adversity, but press on the more bravely". |
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Marge Tindal 
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
AngelFace~ quote: Speak for yourself. Please do not speak for me.  I even know how to capitalize Georgia. ~*Marge*~ |
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Romy Senior Member
since 2000-05-28
Posts 1170Plantation, Florida |
me too, since I ALSO live there! It's spelled GA. LOL! Oops! I forgot to spell TOO correctly! [This message has been edited by Debbie (edited 11-19-2000).] |
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Dark Angel Member Patricius
since 1999-08-04
Posts 10095 |
I echo Jamie |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Margie - Learn to take a joke!!! |
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angelface Junior Member
since 2000-10-25
Posts 40Savannah area, Georgia |
hmmm....I've offended yet again  I meant that it seems most of the people I talk to haven't given a thought to how their grammar sounds to others. |
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