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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296
Purgatorial Incarceration

0 posted 2000-09-29 04:25 PM



Ok - the reason you can't tell them two, is because I'm going to ask for help. And I know as soon as I do, the two of them will come crashing down like snow in an avalanche!  

I have a few questions that I'd like the oh-so-very few people who visit here to help with.


  1. What can we do to encourage people to visit and participate in the English Workshop?

  2. What subjects and/or discussions would you like to see addressed?

  3. How can we keep Kamla from acting all high and mighty?

  4. Are there any challenges you'd like to issue or have others initiate?

  5. Is there a direction you'd like to see English Workshop heading?

  6. Why do you visit the workshop, and what makes you return?



Really, in all seriousness, I think that we have enough people around who can be a big help to others. We can all teach each other new things and I'd like to see that spread out to include as many as possible. How can we do that? Help!


Chris

© Copyright 2000 C.G. Ward - All Rights Reserved
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

1 posted 2000-09-30 02:27 AM


Okay.  You have my solemn oath....

I think that the number one problem is that most people do not recognize that they have a problem with the English Language.  Now, I realize that there are sensitivity problems with pointing that out to poet/peoples in Open Forems, especially considering the spirit of it being "not open to critique", however, I for one, cringe, when I know there is a blatant error, (i.e., "your" vs.
you're") so...my question is, how to tactfully suggest, if that is possible, that, perhaps that person might benefit from a "stop in the workshop?"  Perhaps by e mail?

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

2 posted 2000-09-30 08:14 AM


Too late! I'm here...lol.
I won't rubbish all your inadequacies here C...saving it up for later - to ensure I have enough fuel to be quick on my feet...

I am of a similar position when it comes to errors in poetry, Serenity.

Generally, I think it is each author's responsibility to acknowledge the faults in their work and seek to better it. Pointing them in the right direction, as you suggest, to me is a great idea. I think a tactful email would, in the context of Passions, definitely be the best way to do that...however - whether it is received without offense is another matter.

And therein lies the risk. Writers are among the most sensitive (overly sometimes) people on earth. (I know 'cause I am one!)

Questions must be raised: Who would be entitled to send these emails? How long would a member have been at Passions before it was appropriate to send such an email? If such an idea went ahead, how would a complaint from a member be dealt with, and who would handle it?

Pointing a member directly to the workshop suggests qualification on the part of the people who frequent it. We're no more qualified than anyone else to give advice on the English language, though it could be argued that the English usage of some members is more 'proficient' than that of others.

Any measures to openly direct people here would have to be painstakingly thought out...

More opinions guys?
< !signature-->

"He looked across the
silky surface of the Severn...
it was a famously difficult
river with fierce tides..."


From Jack Maggs



[This message has been edited by Severn (edited 09-30-2000).]

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

3 posted 2000-09-30 08:44 AM


(Oh look - and here's a perfect example provided by dear C himself...'the self-confessed comma man':

'Ok - the reason you can't tell them two, is because I'm going to ask for help'

Figuring out where to put commas could be in order C...high and mighty enough for ya my dear?

Heh heh...)

K

Poertree
Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359
UK
4 posted 2000-09-30 09:00 AM


What can we do to encourage people to visit and participate in the English Workshop?

>>> get yourself fully dressed

What subjects and/or discussions would you like to see addressed?

>>> yup quite right ADD-dress

How can we keep Kamla from acting all high and mighty?

>>> pointless to try and change the natural order of things and anyway someone's gotta keep you down

Are there any challenges you'd like to issue or have others initiate?

>>> HA ..... "squirty-pistols at dawn in the Alley you cad"

Is there a direction you'd like to see English Workshop heading?

>>> up

Why do you visit the workshop, and what makes you return?

>>> ~blush~ ohhhhh christopher how can you stand there in that cute lil' vest and ask that...? ~swoon~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

hey ....... i really do have some serious suggestions as well ...... back soon.....

P

Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612
Hurricane Alley
5 posted 2000-09-30 10:22 AM


I thought it would be a forum to help me write better.

I would not not to be the receiver of an email telling me I made an error in my writing with a suggestion to go to the English Forum! There are a lot of poems that need work - but the poets are offended if you suggest it in any forum but CA and unless they ask for help.

I thought you had a clear vision for this forum when you suggested it - what was it?


serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

6 posted 2000-09-30 10:56 AM


Okay...so not the best idea...but, I want to know...and I'm not speaking of errors that I make while posting a reply.  But, I do know that if I make an error in my work, it drives me nuts until I can fix it, and the longer I know that it's there, the harder I cringe.  Perhaps timely reminders (Sharon is SO GOOD at those--lol) in the forums would help.  
Poertree
Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359
UK
7 posted 2000-09-30 02:48 PM


ok chris

now for the serious bit.  I’d like to hear what you have to say in reply to sharon.  She has a point, what DID you have in mind for English?

anyway on the assumption that you’ve forgotten ...lol... I’ll just say my piece.

The potential problem with the English forum IMHO is that its might struggle to offer anything new.  Passions is primarily about poetry and Nan has the market in poetry workshops well and truly cornered I think.  Historically you seem to have reacted to that by setting “challenges” - problem is that there is already a forum for challenges of one sort or another, and moreover the Alley often becomes a kind of discussion forum though i grant you not entirely serious!  More relevantly though - what is a “challenge”?

What it seems to be to you is the setting of a task which forum participants have to try to complete.  Invariably this is some aspect or technique of writing, which participants are asked to demonstrate in a presentation of a poem or more rarely, prose.  There is precious little to choose between this activity and what is going on in Nans forum, except, to put it bluntly, she is pretty expert at explaining what she wants before hand and in pointing out errors in a post mortem.  In other words her forum benefits from the presence of someone with a high degree of professional expertise.  My point is, coz i know your gonna ask, that theres no point in trying to provide a kind of inferior duplication of what she’s doing!  

Lets move on.  After the poems written as a result of these challenges are posted, there then ensues a session of feedback both from the moderators and the participants.  This is obviously good where it assists in learning, but all too often it has degenerated into a kind of slightly pepped up Open type scenario.  “Greats” and “wows” are pretty useless in this environment ....no?   At the other extreme both you and K and others have posted some excellent responses, very helpful and informative, but to be honest sometimes I’m really struggling to see much difference between what you’re doing and what happens in CA (which i guess is one of the reasons i like English).  As you may know even CA itself struggles sometimes to engender the lively exchange of views that is its lifeblood, so what chance has a little forum like this with such a, lets face it, “dry” name and description, got?

And while i remember lets look at that description:

“Just as a carpenter learns to use a hammer and saw, writers must develop skills with their tools, too.”

Humm... bit of a turn off... and to be honest i don’t really know what the heck it means.. ..........I always assumed it would essentially be an English Language syllabus, concentrating on such things as basic grammar, sentence structure, tense, and all that sort of thing, which most of us including me know very little about.

And now we come to the basic problem which is that in my view THAT is precisely what the forum should set out to do - improve peoples use of and understanding of English - but honestly, how boring can you get?? Who the heck wants to know grammar or conjugations or declensions ...... well actually i would quite like to know, but for one thing I’m afraid to admit i don’t, and for another i havent got a lot of time to find out.....

I think the only way the English Forum can be both different and interesting is by concentrating on focussing narrowly on a particular aspect of English Language and basically tearing it apart each month ( i was going to say “week” but that’s too much).  Because most people here are amateurs and we don’t have a Nan you’d have to invite, cajole, coerce, bribe, threaten or plead to get someone each month to research a topic and then to present it in a rivetting way which would capture imagination.  By all means have “challenges” but try and narrow them and keep them short ..

An example, I recently had cause to research “the Turn” for libbi in CA ... the turn is a very interesting topic.  Below i set out the piece i copied for her (probably breaching a copyright which could be a problem for future ~sigh~):

"THE TURN
Besides its fourteen lines, the other most common feature of the sonnet is the 'turn', or volta: a sudden shift in the development of the poem - a twist in the plot, the breaking of the argument into proposition and counter-proposition, or something quieter: maybe just a shift in tone or rhetorical pitch. This is signalled explicitly in a stanza break between lines 8 and 9, implicitly by a change in the rhyme scheme, or by a clear syntactic 'signpost' at the start of line 9 - or, very often, some combination of all of the above. Sometimes the change is much more subtle, and the poem turns without indicating; it may even come slightly later or earlier than between 8 and 9 - even halfway through a line. Sometimes, though, the turn Is entirely absent, especially in the kind of incantatory list-poem that works by steadily gathering momentum.
The reason we have the turn is that we just can't help it. The human brain craves disruption and variation just as much as it craves symmetry and repetition. It's worth having a look at the turn, and why it comes where it comes.
THE GOLDEN SECTION
Let's take a close look at the Italian sonnet, the progenitor of all the other forms. The Italian (sometimes called the 'Petrarchan', after its most famous exponent) has two stanzas: one of eight lines, generally referred to as the octave, followed by one of six, the sestet. This division of eight and six lines comes quite close to the mathematical ratio known as the golden section, or golden ratio. The mystery of the turn can't be properly understood without some discussion of this remarkable phenomenon.
The golden section is a mathematical ratio of (very) approximately 8:5, or expressed as a decimal, 1-618. ..It can be defined as follows: If a straight line is divided at the point where the ratio of the smaller part to the larger is the same as that of the larger to the whole, then that point occurs at the golden section. The ratio can be derived mathematically from the Fibonacci series of numbers (1,1,2,3, 5 8, 13, 21, 34> 55- etc.); each successive pair of digits slowly converges - after a bit of wobbling - more and more accurately on the ratio. Both the golden ratio and the Fibonacci series itself are omnipresent in nature: in the whorls of the pine-cone or the seedbead of the sunflower, In the number of the daisy's petals. In the spirals of the nautilus or the snail's shell.
The golden section casts its spell over all the arts. The ratio, especially in the form of the 'golden rectangle', was often applied to the proportions of classical architecture, and was employed In the construction of the pyramids. Leonardo to Seurat used the division in a highly complex way, calculating from it physical proportions, or the spatial arrangement of a picture's elements. It naturally marks the main point of denouement in many films, dramas and operas.
Perhaps the most significant appearance of the golden section is in rnusic. The relationship between tonic and dominant is the basis for practically the whole of western music - and this is not dry theory, it's just the way we hear things; its rule is so pervasive that even atonal music is often rationalised by the human ear into an ebb and flow of tension and resolution between nonexistent tonics and dominants. It seems reasonable to conclude that this vibrational relationship - and we're talking about all sounds here, not just music - must have penetrated to every part of our spiritual, mental and physical constitution.
In short, the golden section is a division we often can't help making. In poetry its most explicit manifestation there are plenty of others - is in the division of the sonnet, our square field. The reader will have already worked out that a more accurate division, according to the Fibonacci series, would have been 8:5, rather than the 8:6 we find in the sonnet. This, however, would have produced a thirteen-line poem, and superstition (for one thing, Judas was the thirteenth disciple) would have soon legislated against that form ever achieving much popularity.
It might be reasonably inferred, then, that our sonnet Is one line too long, and that a thirteen-line sonnet, with a turn after line 8, might be our Platonic form. Let me run this by you: one and thirteen are the same number. We often use the number twelve to Indicate a cycle, so that the thirteenth instance of something brings us back to the position of the first, one rotation further on: think, for example, of the hours on the clock, the months in the year, the notes in the scale. The thirteen-line sonnet is symbolic of both transformation and unity - we've returned to precisely the same point as we started, but have ascended in pitch or moved forward in time: so in the song's singing, in the idea's thinking, it's transformed, but stays the same. (Remember the paradox I mentioned earlier?) Think of the musical analogy: rising to the dominant on the eighth line, pausing, and rising again to the tonic again, having ascended a full octave. (As an anecdotal aside, it's worth mentioning that many poets and musicians attest to the mysterious experience of feeling that the whole poem or composition can be Inferred, with an absolute Inevitability, from its very first line, or Its 'given' line.)
One more thing: the spectrum, or gamut, or whole compass, can be symbolised In the number 144-the number of completion, the big square to which all little squares (our sonnet included) perhaps aspire. Not only Is 144 the square of 12, but It's the twelfth number in the Fibonacci series. Its magical potency has long been recognised: the number of saved In Revelation, for example. Is 144,000: almost as many superstitions adhere to it as to the number 13.
I'd contend that what was being attempted in the sonnet-cycle (particularly in constructions like the 'corona', a series of seven sonnets, each biting the tall of Its predecessor by starting with the last line of the previous one, the whole poem finishing with the very first line - though there is a more complicated scheme involving no less than fifteen), albeit unconsciously, is no less than the completion of a 144-line poem - one which ends with the same line on which the poem began, having undergone a series of profound transformations. The sonnet is a kind of mini-cycle, a one-octave."
~~~~~~~~~~~

The point is that here is a very useful bit of knowledge that presented in this way could actually teach people something.  You’d then go on to ask them to demonstrate what they’d learned by writing a short ...and you’d specify how short..... bit of poetry or prose incorporating a turn.  Perhaps you might even run a little competition when the pieces had been written where each participant would, say, guess where the turn was in each of the other pieces, and the winner would be the one who’s “turn” was most accurately pinpointed (or something) .......anything to add a little lightness and interest to the learning process.

You may be wondering what the difference is between this and your challenges.  

Firstly there would be one person or maybe two people very definitely in charge of the month.  They would try and promote THEIR month around passions and drum up interest.

Secondly the level of research by the compere would have to be of a high degree of detail and accuracy, and the  month’s activities carefully worked out beforehand

Thirdly the sessions ought to focus narrowly on aspects generally not covered by other forums.  So things like poetic form and most common technique might be ruled out, BUT more unusual or rare or even zany stuff might be suitable.

Fourthly i think consideration should be given to “signing up” for a workshop as in Nans forum.  I don’t know whether this is technically feasible (ron’s department i guess?), but it sure as hell is embarrassing if you sign up and then don’t perform.  Gawd, that Nan she can sure wield a cane or was it a riding crop .....and those boots ..sheesh.....!!! ...........oops ..no .. sorry Nancy that was that bad Miss Behavin’ ..not you .......apologies ...heh  

and on that note i shall go do somethin’ useful

philip


Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612
Hurricane Alley
8 posted 2000-09-30 04:42 PM


Instead of poetry, why not concentrate on prose?
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296
Purgatorial Incarceration
9 posted 2000-09-30 08:46 PM


Thank you all for the valuable input. (...yes, even you Philip...)

First, I want to clear up what seems to be a common misconception. I didn't think up the workshop... Ron did. Here, I was complaining about grammar, spelling, etc. Ron suggested an English workshop.

Of course I thought it was a great idea. But as I later came to find out, there are a lot of intrinsic problems with not only the idea, but the actuation of the idea. The biggest, I think, is as Philip pointed out - it's often just plain boring. While some/many may jump on the Net to learn, most probably prefer to be entertained as well. There are millions of places to visit on the Internet, and a good portion of them are devoted to whiling away the time with something you enjoy. Sad as it is, many don't find the idea of learning to be fun. So I think one of the biggest challenges would be to find a way to make a potentially dry subject enticing... and honestly,  I have no clue how to do that, therefore posing these questions. If we can find out what does entice people to join in, then perhaps we can spread that out a little bit. I think that like Passions, the more people are involved, the more others will get involved. This is possibly another problem. People are likely to feel more comfortable when they aren't worried about being singled out. When you have hundreds/thousands of people involved, the odds of being singled out and picked upon are considerably slimmer than if you only have a dozen or so. Note the members we do have who post in English... all are outspoken in most if not all of the other forums. They're ones who either aren't concerned with being singled out, or like it. (Yes, like you Philip, you little glory hound you!)

Moving on - Forum description: Feel free to suggest something. Kamla and I have beaten that one back and forth and have yet to think of anything more descriptive/inviting.

Challenges - Yes, they are similar to others here, and to tell you the truth, it's been out of a lack of a better idea. With the ones I've issued, I've tried to involve some sort of "English" pertinence to them, i.e.: the alliteration challenge. Agreed though, that it ends up being little more than a combination of the Poetry Workshop, CA and Challenge forum.  But you have to admit - however vainly, I was trying! LOL

Another misconception that I'd like to clear up here: Moderator does NOT equal teacher! Seriously, I think that some people see the role of moderators incorrectly... or at least not wholly. [Our] positions are almost like that of a civil servant. (Except we usually get things done in a timely manner!) We're here to help with the functionality of the forums, sometimes to police problem areas, to hopefully act as role models, etc. What I don't think moderators should be, is a starting point. The forums are for the members. This isn't "my" forum. This is YOUR forum. We're here to kinda keep an eye on it and to help out. To tell you the truth, I don't have the time either to initiate everything. I will certainly try to help out, but again, in the end, that's not what I feel my purpose as moderator is. Which brings me to the next thing -

quote:
Because most people here are amateurs


Exactly! Which is one of the reasons we can provide so much. Almost everyone here IS an amateur. But take me as an example: I consider myself fairly well-versed in the English language. I make relatively few mistakes and I have a fairly firm grasp of grammar and structure. Still, when you compare my writing from when I came here a year ago to my writing today, you will likely see a huge difference in quality, in many ways. I've noticed this in almost everyone who's been here for a considerable amount of time. And I learned it all from amateurs! Every person has an area of expertise. Granted, Nan (and I mean NO disrespect, I value your knowledge) is well versed in many areas... but she's only one person. Instead, I've learned from her AND almost 4,000 other people, if only through example. I get to pick a little up from you, from Kamla, from Ron, from... You get the point. And you know what, all amateurs! There's nothing wrong with that, for one. Two, it's almost better. Many people feel less daunted when they're learning from someone on their same level than if they "feel ignorant" by comparison. Certainly I'm not damning the idea of learning from an expert, but there is a lot of comfort in learning by example as well.

quote:
Passions is primarily about poetry...


...No, I don't think so! Poetry is merely the extension we use. At the base, I feel Passions is about sharing, understanding (still working on that one...), and many other things through the use of language. In reality, poems make up a small portion of the sharing on this site. Take into account the replies, discussions, et al, and you find that language is really the main portion of Passions. That is where I'd like to help the most, and the portion that usually grates me the most. I think there's a lot of value helping people improve their poetry, but I think the neglected part that the English Workshop can focus on is in the area of "speaking."If we can find a way to help people with the underlying language, then perhaps we have a purpose here. I think what we need to determine is if there is in fact a way to do that. And if there is, how do we do it.

Don't get me wrong Philip, I like your idea of the challenges. But as it's presented, I don't see it as all that much different from what we've been doing, with the exception of severity. I think it has a lot of potential, but really think not much would come of it. It poses the possibility of being a time-consuming process, which as I've seen, is one of the biggest limitations on the 'Net. However, I DO see a lot of merit in your idea of focusing on a portion of the language and "tearing it apart." Personally, I LOVE the idea. I think I stand to learn a lot from something like that. Again though, we come against the problem of entertainment. While "we" would find it enjoyable, many would see it simply as boring "school-like" discussion. How do we make it exciting???

Finally, the piece you presented IS informative, and not noring at all. But I can tell you from experience that many/most people don't want to read anything of length... which is one of the biggest deterrents for Prose. (Brad made a good point once, commenting that it's ironic that while most people would rather read prose while not on the Internet, they don't while on...LOL) So while also presenting something interesting, we're also faced with the task of keeping it brief. (And as you've seen, brevity is not one of my strong suits...) So we have a huge challenge in front of us if we want to make an impact with teh English Workshop. I think you're headed in the right direction Philip, but I still think it's not quite there. We have so many factors, that's it's hard to couple them all together into a cohesive, workable whole.

Chris



Poertree
Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359
UK
10 posted 2000-10-01 05:05 PM


Thank you all for the valuable input. (...yes, even you Philip... >>> ohhhh soooo droll   )
First, I want to clear up what seems to be a common misconception. I didn't think up the workshop... Ron did. Here, I was complaining about grammar, spelling, etc. Ron suggested an English workshop.

>>> stop splitting furs ... you were more than a catalyst ...you don’t wriggle out of it that easily ...lol

Of course I thought it was a great idea. But as I later came to find out, there are a lot of intrinsic problems with not only the idea, but the actuation of the idea. The biggest, I think, is as Philip pointed out - it's often just plain boring. While some/many may jump on the Net to learn, most probably prefer to be entertained as well. There are millions of places to visit on the Internet, and a good portion of them are devoted to whiling away the time with something you enjoy. Sad as it is, many don't find the idea of learning to be fun. So I think one of the biggest challenges would be to find a way to make a potentially dry subject enticing...

>>> I totally agree so far

and honestly, I have no clue how to do that,

>>> no ..but surely you have now after reading my reply! Or didn’t you read it? ...heh heh

therefore posing these questions. If we can find out what does entice people to join in, then perhaps we can spread that out a little bit. I think that like Passions, the more people are involved, the more others will get involved.

>>> definitely

This is possibly another problem. People are likely to feel more comfortable when they aren't worried about being singled out. When you have hundreds/thousands of people involved, the odds of being singled out and picked upon are considerably slimmer than if you only have a dozen or so.

>>> ummmm... yes, good point ...i didn’t think of that

Note the members we do have who post in English... all are outspoken in most if not all of the other forums. They're ones who either aren't concerned with being singled out, or like it. (Yes, like you Philip, you little glory hound you!)

>>> meeeeee??? ... actually - i don’t know what gets into me online ..lol.. I’m the shyest most retiring person you could hope to meet in real life ... i am really i promise  

Moving on - Forum description: Feel free to suggest something.

>>> i think first we need to fix what’s gonna go on in the forum and then write the description to suit it

Kamla and I have beaten that one back and forth and have yet to think of anything more descriptive/inviting.

>>> see above ........ cart before the proverbial equine i think ...... but then K and you were always a bit like that, no?  

Challenges - Yes, they are similar to others here, and to tell you the truth, it's been out of a lack of a better idea. With the ones I've issued, I've tried to involve some sort of "English" pertinence to them, i.e.: the alliteration challenge. Agreed though, that it ends up being little more than a combination of the Poetry Workshop, CA and Challenge forum. But you have to admit - however vainly, I was trying! LOL

>>> chris .. No adverse crit was meant ..you and K are doing a great job in difficult circs and you’ve made it fun and interesting ..... BUT not DIFFERENT ...... well not that different anyway ......lol

Another misconception that I'd like to clear up here: Moderator does NOT equal teacher! Seriously, I think that some people see the role of moderators incorrectly... or at least not wholly. [Our] positions are almost like that of a civil servant. (Except we usually get things done in a timely manner!) We're here to help with the functionality of the forums, sometimes to police problem areas, to hopefully act as role models, etc. What I don't think moderators should be, is a starting point. The forums are for the members. This isn't "my" forum. This is YOUR forum. We're here to kinda keep an eye on it and to help out. To tell you the truth, I don't have the time either to initiate everything. I will certainly try to help out, but again, in the end, that's not what I feel my purpose as moderator is.

>>> ok we may differ a little here ......and this is pretty fundamental IMHO to making english work:

totally with you on mods not being teachers (i never suggested that btw in case you thought i did!) ......HA HA the idea that K or Jim could teach me anything is simply preposterous ....no?  LMAO ...   but seriously mods i see as cops ... nice cops maybe, but nevertheless cops....lol... ...... BUT ... BUT......the workshop forums are different .....they have to be. If you agree that workshop = learning then you immediately step outside of the main rationale for most of the other forums (except CA and maybe 101).  In any learning environment there has to be at least an element of discipline and order (i think), but even more so when the main subject matter is so dry and “difficult”.  Chris, you simply HAVE to have someone to co-ordinate ..... i didn’t say TEACH .. i said co-ordinate.  Whether that be a moderator or someone else i suppose doesn’t matter, but i guess a moderator would maybe carry more “authority”, and if i was coordinating the activities of the english forum and some heavy handed mod stomped in and started laying down the law at me I think I’d be a bit annoyed, so on reflection the coordinator has to be a moderator.  In poetry workshop Nan co-ordinates and teaches but also invites other people in to hold workshops - i see exactly the same sort of set up in english, it’s the only logical way really.  So basically as co-ordinator you need to find 12 people per annum to research and present a topic in a lively way, surely not too onerous, eh?

Which brings me to the next thing -
quote:

Because most people here are amateurs

Exactly! Which is one of the reasons we can provide so much. Almost everyone here IS an amateur. But take me as an example: I consider myself fairly well-versed in the English language. I make relatively few mistakes and I have a fairly firm grasp of grammar and structure. Still, when you compare my writing from when I came here a year ago to my writing today, you will likely see a huge difference in quality, in many ways. I've noticed this in almost everyone who's been here for a considerable amount of time. And I learned it all from amateurs!

>>> here here ...you make my point for me that’s precisely what i was trying to say

Every person has an area of expertise. Granted, Nan (and I mean NO disrespect, I value your knowledge) is well versed in many areas... but she's only one person. Instead, I've learned from her AND almost 4,000 other people, if only through example. I get to pick a little up from you, from Kamla, from Ron, from... You get the point. And you know what, all amateurs! There's nothing wrong with that, for one. Two, it's almost better. Many people feel less daunted when they're learning from someone on their same level than if they "feel ignorant" by comparison. Certainly I'm not damning the idea of learning from an expert, but there is a lot of comfort in learning by example as well.

>>> all of which i agree with and thought i said in my first reply .......lol

quote:

Passions is primarily about poetry...

...No, I don't think so! Poetry is merely the extension we use. At the base, I feel Passions is about sharing, understanding (still working on that one...), and many other things through the use of language. In reality, poems make up a small portion of the sharing on this site. Take into account the replies, discussions, et al, and you find that language is really the main portion of Passions.

>>> yes ...ok fine - you’re broadening the discussion - of course Passions is about a lot MORE than poetry, you’ve only got to spend 5 minutes in OPEN to realise that...heh, but poetry is what you are greeted with on the main site and what hits you between the eyes in the message boards - so what?  Lets get back to the point i was making when i made that statement, which was quite simply that Nans poetry workshop deals with learning about poetry, so as you rightly imply, the english forum has to be more broadly based and deal with language as a whole - to be more specific, the english language - nobody is arguing with that, are they?

That is where I'd like to help the most, and the portion that usually grates me the most. I think there's a lot of value helping people improve their poetry,

>>> agree, that’s what we try to do in CA

but I think the neglected part that the English Workshop can focus on is in the area of "speaking."If we can find a way to help people with the underlying language, then perhaps we have a purpose here.

>>> agree again

I think what we need to determine is if there is in fact a way to do that. And if there is, how do we do it.

>>> i thought i was suggesting a way to do this !!  

Don't get me wrong Philip, I like your idea of the challenges.

>>> ~sigh~ ......challenges (which weren’t my idea but yours) are one possible way of introducing interest into the discussion of a topic .. “challenges”, “competitions”, “demonstrations”, “tasks set” .....whatever ...not important.  What IS important, and what i was trying to convey, is the idea of a narrow and thoroughly researched focus on a particular aspect of english usage - i’m beginning to see that the only way I’m gonna get this over is to organise a demonstration ...LOL ....... heyyy... you cunning person you ..that’s what you’ve been driving me to ....!! ........go on ...admit it!...lol

But as it's presented, I don't see it as all that much different from what we've been doing, with the exception of severity. I think it has a lot of potential, but really think not much would come of it. It poses the possibility of being a time-consuming process,

>>> no it may not be significantly different - perhaps the main difference would be one of emphasis and greater structure coupled with the incentive that a single person would have to make THEIR month popular and successful .....human nature y’know...lol............. BUT yes... definitely time consuming for the person organising that month ....can’t help that yanno ..all worthwhile things need effort dontchaknow   ...  If people devoted even a tenth of the time they spend on ICQ then I’m quite sure this could work

which as I've seen, is one of the biggest limitations on the 'Net. However, I DO see a lot of merit in your idea of focussing on a portion of the language and "tearing it apart." Personally, I LOVE the idea. I think I stand to learn a lot from something like that.

>>> good ....now we’re getting somewhere ~smile~

Again though, we come against the problem of entertainment. While "we" would find it enjoyable, many would see it simply as boring "school-like" discussion. How do we make it exciting???

>>> arggggggg listen up will ya - scroll up a few lines - as i say a demonstration may be the only way ..lol

Finally, the piece you presented IS informative, and not noring at all. But I can tell you from experience that many/most people don't want to read anything of length... which is one of the biggest deterrents for Prose.

(Brad made a good point once, commenting that it's ironic that while most people would rather read prose while not on the Internet, they don't while on...LOL) So while also presenting something interesting, we're also faced with the task of keeping it brief.

>>>i agree actually - and to some extent i have a lot of sympathy, especially living in the country where online is charged by the minute! .....so the piece i posted was too long maybe ..in fact it probably was..... but if people are serious about learning why cant they simply copy it to a WP and read at their leisure offline ...like I’m doing with your reply in fact???

(And as you've seen, brevity is not one of my strong suits...) So we have a huge challenge in front of us if we want to make an impact with the English Workshop. I think you're headed in the right direction Philip, but I still think it's not quite there.

>>> I’m there ..lol... it’s just that you have a bit of catching up to do .. see, i might be older but i ain’t slowed up yet ..  ...... but seriously, i guess there may be plenty of room for refinement, and possibly the only way to test ideas is to “suck it and see” (lmao ... sorry LK   )

philip

[This message has been edited by Poertree (edited 10-01-2000).]

StarrGazer
Senior Member
since 2000-03-05
Posts 679
Texas
11 posted 2000-10-02 12:27 PM


I don't regularly post here, though I do come in sometimes to see what the discussion is about.  So, I hope you don't mind my inserting my opinion here.
When I first came to PIP and entered this forum I guess what I was expecting was something similar to the Poetry Workshop. A particular lesson or form of writing is focused on each month... a description is given and people write and post their assignment.  
I'm aware that the mechanics of writing are sometimes boring or the explanations are long, but in those cases could one not simply break the lesson down into smaller more easily comprehended lessons?

Say for example the lesson of the month was writing a play ... you could break  it down into lesson1 plot lesson2 characters lesson3 setting and so on ... developing a outline of steps to get the end result

There are so many different forms of writing the lessons could be limitless. And when you add to that the grammatical side of english (which really doesn't have to be boring and can be incorporated into the lesson of the month) there are so many things you can do!!

I've been to forums that had writing prompts for each month in kind of a game form ... everyone is given the same 3 sentances or sentance fragments, a list of 10 or so words (of which they have to use as many as possible in their writing) given a setting or situation and then encouraged to write. Maybe something like that would go over here too?

I don't know ... you wanted suggestions there are some of mine

Shan

Poertree
Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359
UK
12 posted 2000-10-02 04:08 AM


Shan is thinking very much along the same lines as me (or should that be "I"??  )...lol

P

Poertree
Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359
UK
13 posted 2000-10-02 07:24 AM


btw chris ...you've gotta admit K as a lady cop in uniform ....LMAO

kinda compelling image...no? ~smirk~

  


jbouder
Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash
14 posted 2000-10-02 12:59 PM


Philip:

quote:
......HA HA the idea that K or Jim could teach me anything is simply preposterous ....no?  LMAO ...


Thought you could hide that amongst all of those other words, huh?  Come on, Kamla ... lets catch a flight to England and teach this guy some humility!    

Chris:

I'll try to come back a little later with some thoughts ... I have to fly to England to teach Philip something.  

Jim

Poertree
Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359
UK
15 posted 2000-10-02 03:48 PM


Heyyyyyy FOUL ... where did you pop up from? I thought you said you'd be busy for a couple of weeks ...rats - caught red pawed ...lol


jbouder
Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash
16 posted 2000-10-03 12:20 PM


Chris:

Philip may be onto something about your current state of dress ... I never thought I'd miss that boy-band mug shot of yours.        

Sorry ... you know you make yourself an easy target, right?  You're almost as much fun to pick on as architects and engineers!

Okay ... about English Workshop ... I think the best advice I can offer is to continue to keep the guidelines loose and try to keep things interesting.  The challenges are fun, perhaps a poetry slam would be fun ... or maybe a battle of limericks (just a couple suggestions).

Learning, in and of itself, is fun for me but I realize that some people are not as interested in learning the finer points of writing (literary criticism, versification, etc.).  Keeping the atmosphere light-hearted is certainly a viable way to draw people to this forum and to keep them coming.  Keeping it informative and entertaining makes the learning incidental ... who is going to complain about that?  It's the best of both worlds.  I stop in from time to time because it is interesting and often entertaining.  Besides that, it has some great mod's and a resident court jester (or is that a fool?   ). Thus far, I think it has been a good learning atmosphere and I, for one, will keep coming back.

Just a few thoughts.

Jim

[This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 10-03-2000).]

Dee
Member Elite
since 2000-08-19
Posts 2330
Queensland, Australia
17 posted 2000-10-23 10:41 PM


My two cents worth.

1. Could you post challenges elsewhere that bring people back here? Maybe something in Announcements every so often to bring people in. "English Workshop" sounds so much like school and its been too many years since I've been there.
2. I like the thread on different meanings for words that sound the same. (I know, I need help.)
3. I'm staying out of that one!
4. I can't think of any challenges at the moment. I know I need help with finding different words with the same meaning.
5. I'll have to think on that one.
6. I came here because I know I need help. (with my English!)


As for the comment on emailing people about their need for visiting here, I wouldn't like it if I got one of those letters. I would feel hurt that someone had found fault in my work, unless I was posting to CA, which I don't have the intestinal fortitude to do.
Dee


[This message has been edited by Dee (edited 10-23-2000).]

Elizabeth Cor
Senior Member
since 2000-10-13
Posts 879
Over the river and through the woods
18 posted 2000-10-24 05:23 PM


Entering this forum, I expected to find a place where a person could submit something (hopefully not only poetry) and let masters of the English language tear out errors. I have honestly been looking for such a place for an exhaustingly long time. I can’t vouch for that direction being entertaining in any sense, but I would love the help it would provide. This doesn’t exactly help you in any area… I’d just like to see my grammar, sentence structure, and punctuation skills improve (note all the errors already formed in THIS paragraph). I do believe, however, that there may be more like me out there who are simply not aware of this forum; I wasn’t until today. On a final note, if I can be of ANY assistance, let me know.

~ Beth

P.S. As I believe everyone before me has mentioned, the e-mail idea is not a friendly idea.
P.S. Yes, I am following both of you.

Jamie
Member Elite
since 2000-06-26
Posts 3168
Blue Heaven
19 posted 2000-10-25 12:12 PM


In a nutshell--- Ask questions related to the usage of english and receive the correct answers.



Jamie

Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito. - Virgil.
"Yield thou not to adversity, but press on the more bravely".



Poertree
Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359
UK
20 posted 2000-10-26 12:24 PM


wrooooong thread jamie ... the other one is the precis thread  
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