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I can't think in Iambic Pentameter!!!
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I can't think in Iambic Pentameter!!! |
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Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA 
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I'm wondering if there is any way that I can get my mind to think in this dum-DUM dum-DUM rhythm while I'm trying to write it. . . I find that I think that I can hear it in my head, and I write it, but, when I show it to someone else, they don't see it the same way. I know that reading work in imabic and practicing writing it are two ways to get my mind to see how it works. . . but, I'm wondering if there is any other way to do this?? Do you have this same problem?? What have you done to work with it?? Any and all help will be appreciated. . . thank you in advance. (Perhaps, I'm just listening to my own internal drummer?? LOL) ------------------------------------------------------------------- To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Is English your first language, John? The "natural" rhythm of English is iambic (we can ignore the number of feet per line), and I find it difficult to NOT think in that rhythm. When I added a few limericks to a recent thread, for example, I had to really struggle to stay in anapestic. But once I get into a purely iambic mode, I find myself talking, writing, and even thinking iambically for hours. I don't know of any trick, beyond those you've already cited. I ALWAYS recite an appropriate poem or passage before I tackle a new poem, just to get me into the flow. For iambic, that usually means Shakespeare, both because he was the master of meter and because I have enough committed to memory to avoid looking for something. It'll be interesting to read what others have to say about this… |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
I think that we do have an innate sense of iambic... Mysteria keeps defying me on that premise, however. She says she just CAN'T da-DUM. Kit gave her some da-DUMming lessons last week though - She had Mysteria dancing to the beat of her words. For each stressed syllable she was tapping her right foot. We all got a kick out of her - She spent the entire week hopping about...  |
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Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA |
yes, English is my first language. . . and, I don't think that it's the Iambic part that I have so much trouble with it. . . I think that it's the Pentameter part. . . here, let me try to explain a little better. . . there is a star that shines far in the sky to me, in my head, I hear this line as iambic pentameter. . . that da-DUM da-DUM rhythm. . . but, having shown it to someone else, they don't think that it falls in that rhythm. . . in my head, I really don't feel the 10-syllable flow. . . it usually comes out as a 12 or 14-syllable flow (or even two 6-syllable flows and a 14). . . why, I don't know. . . any other help would be appreciated. . . thanks. . .  ----------------------------------------------------------------- To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world. |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
It's iambic to me...  |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
"there is a star that shines far in the sky" It's almost iambic. If we break it down, I don't know how to read "a STAR that SHINES" in any other way except iambic. Some might argue that you could stress 'there' over 'is' but I read it as 'there IS', so I read the first part of the line as three iambs. Where I lose it is 'far' and the prepositional phrase 'in the sky'. Even when I tap it out, I stress 'far', not 'in' -- I naturally slow down my speech in order to do that of course and therein lies the beauty of rhythm. It's not following the pattern da Dum that's so important, it's manipulating the reader to slow down and speed up in the appropriate places. Can the line work in an iambic poem? Of course. When in doubt, follow your ear. The problem is that so many who have no ear read that as a license to write anything they want and call it iambic. On the other hand, some are absolute purists and believe that you have to me perfect (fun as an exercise but rarely creates a poem that stays with you -- too monotonous). Iambic meter is very flexible but it doesn't mean that everything is possible. And that's my answer. Please show me how you can read that line as iambic without changing the natural stresses in English? |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
uhmm... for what it's worth - i can have it shown to me, explained to me... and STILL i don't hear it right - i think i'm just messed up in the head and hear things differently/say things differently. a friend once told me (and i feel realy badtha idon't remebr who it was, though i think it might have been Linda) that if you place your hand underneath your jaw, whenever it is pushed down as you speak, then that is the 'stress' word. uhmm... i still didn't get it. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Christopher, First, forget about poetry for a moment, it's the wrong place to start. You already know what you're doing because you're a native speaker -- the problem is in the description, not the action. Start with words: CONtract and conTRACT, CENter, and cenTRALity, university and universe city. Once you can hear that, I think it all begins to fall into place. On a personal note, I think it would be very interesting to see where your poetry goes once you get the description down. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Blame Christopher. sigh...He sent me here. But truly, I can't write the differences unti I HEAR them. I would love, I would BEG...to hear the differences...even if it's just a simple sound byte...that could make a difference for ME, I know...and? It doesn't have to be an inclusive part of passions..just a tutorial example! purty please? |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
and... i can 'see' it... when someone shows me. like you do above... but i have to repeat the words several times and pay close attention. (i wonder, on a side note, if that has anything to do with simply taking our knowledge of the language for granted. hmmm.) and, ignoring poetry, like you said brad... i can kind of understand. but the stresses stress me out! honestly: when i hear a phrase in my head, i don't just hear it as words. really. if you tell me "I said, Chris, the weather's great today." i see, and speak in my mind "I said comma capital c-hris comma the weather-apostrophe-s great today period" no joke. suggestions. i would LOVE to be able to hear/recognize the rhythm and meter... (though i doubt i could ever do it like Mike or Linda who seem to have it in their blood)... and Brad - care to elaborate on what you mean? think i should start writing in rhyme? lol |
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Kit McCallum
Administrator
Member Laureate
since 2000-04-30
Posts 14774Ontario, Canada |
I don't know if it will help Sven, because it's a little hard to explain what Mysteria and I verbally discussed (as Nancy noted above), but if you have a look at the example below (Mysteria and I were playing around), what I shared with Sharon, was that it helps to grossly exaggerate the words when getting a feel for the flow (and I really mean it from a ridiculously exaggerated standpoint).  In the example below, the "DUM" is the "heavy" beat (when you read it aloud, verbally make your voice go higher and louder on the DUM's, and tap your foot to that beat each time). On the "da" part - it's the "light" beat (when you read it aloud, verbally make your voice go lower and softer, and do not tap your foot to that one) As you do the above, you can also be tapping your fingers to each and every beat, using the same hand, starting with thumb and tapping through to your pinky, then thumb again, until you've reached 14 taps (ends on your ring finger), then you know you've finished on the right "DUM" (example of 7 feet (or 14 taps) is "heptameter") /pip/Forum69/HTML/001351-2.html#25 LOL ... don't know if it will help or not - but it's the exaggeration I think that tends to help. After I've written something, I always backtrack, and try to catch places where I may have missed a beat. Hope that helps. [This message has been edited by Kit McCallum (05-16-2002 08:41 AM).] |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
What am I missing? I read this as: It feels totally like iambic pentameter to me.. It really does.. |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
That doesn't work for me the way Kit showed me as my fingers and foot are out of beat to this? LOL (they have to be in sync)Well, this is how it reads to me now (after foot-tapping school with Kit) (the far has to go I think?) There IS a STAR that SHINES in THE sky. da dum da dum da dum da dum da My foot stuck at the "far" in the line as I couldn't call it a dah or a dum LOL. Then you would have to make the next line the same 9 beats starting with the da first! LOL (and that they call something else I forget what). and Chris this stresses me out too. You should hear Kit and Michael they actually talk like this - it is darn scary!  I think the key is being consistent and that is where I slack off and become lazy, and think it sounds right, but don't spend the time counting it out properly. It takes practice that's for sure and I practice every day on word, but don't post those (brain exercises). [This message has been edited by Mysteria (05-06-2002 02:43 PM).] |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
Um.. Sharon!!... that's a mutant anapestic trochaic nonometer ... The key word there is NOT - I mean NON-o-meter...  |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
a what? See what I mean? Kit told me I had to da dum da dum, and what would the "far" be then if I put it back it would be this...There is a star that shines far in the sky da dum da dum da dum dum da dum da do two dums make a da? HAH! Okay, I give up those were 9 syllables you are going to say right? Some are meant to rhyme and some not I guess, so I will just take my notepad and go stand in my line  da dum, da dum[This message has been edited by Mysteria (05-06-2002 02:57 PM).] |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Two dums make a dumdum!!! LOL |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
(Mysteria sneaks in and changes her da-DUM's)  |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
I did yes, I typed the suckers wrong, stay awake will ya! Ah hah...found my "teacher's" example for you....this is done by Kit to me! love to hear you laugh ing, from a dis tance in my mind, Da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM Your foot a tap- tap- tap ping, as you beat it out in rhyme; Da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM Your song and dance of po e try, are trea sures with no end … Da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM We'll go da Dum Dum Dum ming an y time you wish, my friend. Da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM [This message has been edited by Mysteria (05-06-2002 03:02 PM).] |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
YIKES  |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
 Okay, you win, I am buying a poetry book today honest, now I have a foot fetish thanks to you all. Who would have thought there were so many kind of feet? All I wanted to do was tell you a cute little rhyme and I have to go through this torture, not fair!Okay a quick addition from Nan here she emailed me... daDUM = iambic monometer daDUM daDUM = iambic dimeter daDUM daDUM daDUM = iambic trimeter daDUM daDUM daDUM daDUM = iambic tetrameter daDUM daDUM daDUM daDUM daDUM = iambic pentameter DUMda = trochaic monometer DUMda DUMda = trochaic dimeter DUMda DUMda DUMda = trochaic trimeter da da DUM = anapestic da da DUM da da DUM da da DUM = anapestic trimeter da da DUM da da DUM da da DUM da da DUM = anapestic tetrameter and so on [This message has been edited by Mysteria (05-06-2002 03:14 PM).] |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
That'd be perfect iambic heptameter  |
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Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA |
thanks everyone for all your help. . . I think that the other thing that really annoys me about this is that it's so subjective. . . Nan saw the line I used as iambic, Brad saw it as almost iambic. . . this is frustrating to me. . . because what I hear as IP may not be what someone else hears as IP. . . there aren't really any hard and fast rules for this meter. . . and that's frustrating. . . here's how I hear the line there IS a STAR that SHINES far IN the SKY that's how I hear it. . . now, if I hear it this way, then to me, it's IP. . . it follows that da-DUM rhythm, and there are 10 syllables to the line. . . but, as shown above, that's not how others hear it. . . so, who's right?? are there any clear cut answers?? that's what I'm really looking for here. . . and Kit, thanks for the exercise. . .I've been reading sonnets all weekend and have found that not even they follow the hard and fast "10 to the line da-DUM" rule. . . so, why call it a sonnet???  -------------------------------------------------------------- To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world. |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
Calling it one because the rhyme scheme is intact doesn't make it one.. My vote is obviously that YOU're right... and Kit too...  |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
for some reason I don't think there is a question as to why I have a headache with all this daDUMMING going on! Sheesh! I heard it all the way to Kansas... Free verse, Mysteria... and you can keep your hands free for writing! LOL.... Besides, I was told to stay away from rhyme!!!!! Iambic or otherwise... |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
uhm - yeah. but as i posted in another thread - meter is important in free verse too. oh the horror! |
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Masked Intruder
Moderator
Senior Member
since 1999-05-23
Posts 1231Near golden sunsets |
somebody said kansas... all the other words in this thread are clearly an advanced form of english that i haven't yet learned. *grins* |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
Okay here was my problem, my Grandmother taught me how to "rhyme" for a reason which I won't go into here, but it was sort of a defense for me growing up, but until now I didn't realize that she taught me how to just make lines sound "rhymie" with syllables, and now to try and undo how my brain thinks after all those years is tough, but gall darn I am going to post something in rhyme that is right if it kills me (so hence, getting the book). Karilea, MI is right, free verse isn't necesssarily "free" either, they got you in all areas LOL. This has been a very informative thread (except for my antics) and I saved it and will study what has been offered, thanks. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
The answer, as Sven has partially discerned, is in Kit's example. Specifically, this line: Your foot a tap- tap- tap ping, as you beat it out in rhyme; Da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM How can the same word, "tap," be both stressed AND unstressed? Why do some, like Nan, read Sven's line as "far" and others as "FAR?" In normal speech patterns, the word "far" would probably be stressed, I think. Nan is able to read it as unstressed, instead putting the stress on the preposition following it, because the word is deep enough into an iambic phrase to lead her in that direction. Reverse the order of the words, and it's much easier to lose that stress, I think. FAR in the SKY, there IS a STAR that SHINES If Sven used his line as is, many would read it as Nan did, as pure iambic pentameter. If Sven embedded that line in a full verse, completely surrounded by good iambic meter, almost everyone would read it that way. Our ear tries very hard to follow the pattern established by the writer. Meter is determined by stress, but stress is determined by MANY things. Brad noted that "a STAR that SHINES" is strict iambic, because we almost invariably stress nouns and active verbs. It's very, very difficult to lead the ear away from that. To a lesser extent, the same is true of passive verbs. Adjective and adverbs can go either way, depending on the strength of the word. The secondary parts of speech, like articles and prepositions, depend almost entirely on the structure of the sentence. Sometimes they're stressed, but usually not. When they are, it's because the writer wrote it that way. For me, one good way to determine stress is to look at the relative importance of the words together. In "a STAR that SHINES" it's very easy to see that the noun and verb are much more important than the lesser words. In the phrase "FAR in the SKY," I read the words FAR and SKY as being more important to the meaning than the preposition and the article. If I spoke the last phrase alone, that's where I would vocally put the stress. But because we look at relative importance, and because our ear can be led, putting the whole ten syllables together makes it very easy to read it as Nan did. As perfect iambic pentameter. Note, however, that such an interpretation - led there by the author - also subtly changes the meaning of the line. It is no longer important that the star is far away, but only that it is in the sky. In other words, as Sven suggested, I think meter IS subjective. But only to a limited extent. You can lead the ear where you want it to go, but you shouldn't try pushing too hard I think probably the most important point raised in this thread is Brad's. Absolute adherence to perfect meter is NOT what we should be striving to attain. Meter creates the lyrical flow, but it is subtle deviations in meter that lend strength and meaning to a poem. Our meter leads the reader down a perfectly straight path, but perfectly straight can get a little boring. Sometimes, you want to stop the reader for a moment and say, "Oh, look over here at this." Deviations in meter can draw attention to the what the writer thinks is important. Of course, too many deviations creates distractions. Because if we tell the reader everything is important with too many deviations, then very quickly, nothing becomes important. Put another way, meter is craft. Like learning the piano, it takes vigilance and lots of practice, but it can be mastered by anyone. Knowing when and how to use meter, like the piano in the hands of a Mozart, is art. |
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Kit McCallum
Administrator
Member Laureate
since 2000-04-30
Posts 14774Ontario, Canada |
ROFL ... love ya Sharon! All excellent points Ron. If I was reading that tap-tap-tapping line aloud personally, as the writer, I'd stress the TAP tap TAPing through voice ... but you're right ... if a reader was following along, by the time the "tapping" lines come up, the rhythm I hope would have been established in preceeding verses as they read along to alleviate any confusion.  [This message has been edited by Kit McCallum (05-06-2002 09:58 PM).] |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
... and furthermore, Sharon.. Everyone LIKES your DUM da da DUM DUMming... Why try to fix it if it's not broken??..  |
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Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA |
thanks everyone for your input and for your suggestions and hints. . . this is one of the biggest problems that I've had with writing. . . my own voice seems to follow a rhythm that is my own. . . but, I'd like to learn a new rhythm. . . so, that's why the question. . . thank you all again. . . --------------------------------------------------------- To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world. |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
I used this method... there was a man who found a shoe -/-/-/-/ THERE! That's all I do. I know my meter is off a bit at times, but hey! I may be inventing a new poetic format! I can talk in rhyme and meter for hours - it drives my kids crazy - and I sound like a Shakespearan play - you should try it Sven. Just walk around ending EVERY line with a rhyming word. You have to think 3 lines in advance though!  |
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Muys Member
since 2002-04-06
Posts 389The Netherlands |
My heart go dim dom dam ding dong Love muys |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
THANK YOU C!!! and perhaps it is just ME...but I would sure love to hear...how many people would love to HEAR...THE DIFFERENCES... My problem is? the difference could well be in the READING... So, my question is, if I am attempting a format, how can I best--er..lest's say INFLUENCE THE READER to read in proper meter? (and hey, what the hell was THAT, ANYWAY?) ARRRRGGGGGHHHH... ? |
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