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I'm angry
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I'm angry |
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Marilyn Member Elite
since 1999-09-26
Posts 2621Ontario, Canada |
I am just uncontrolably angry. Angry with parents who don't take their responsiblities seriously. In this world we have both Father's and Mother's who just walk away fromn their children. We have parents who abuse and neglect them and now we have two innocents lost in Michigan. The lives of two babies will never be the same because of adult carelessness. How did a seven year old get his hands on a gun? How did this child get that gun out of the house without the parents being aware of it? How did this child get to school and shoot a six year old without someone stopping him? How did this child know how to use the gun? Why was the thing loaded in the first place? AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. I am so angry with our society that sees these things happen and turns a blind eye on it. oh, what a tragedy, I am glad it wasn't my child. Well guess what, the next one could be yours. What can we do to make sure no other child is needlessly killed by fire arms? To those who fight against gun control laws....this child's blood is on your hands. (this is my opinion only) Put the guns in the hands of the people who need them, the police. Too many innocents die every year because of miss management of firearms. Wake up before the next death is you or your children. I just had to get that out. I did not mean to offend anyone with this rant but 2 innocent lives are lost today. A six year old girl and a seven year old boy. The girl is dead and the boy pulled the trigger. Why? All I ask is why? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
An unspeakable tragedy.....I wish I had the answers, Marilyn.  Denise |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hi Marylin, Personally I think the problem in that incident had little to do with the gun, the gun being only an extension of this child's feelings and the way he has been programmed/taught/raised, etc. to deal with his feelings and the thoughts behind his actions. Why did this child think nothing of killing another person? Would it have been a lesser shock if the child used a knife or a stick? Around my town there was a 15 yr old beaten to death by some teenagers over a pack of cigarettes and some loose change. The senselessness and bewilderment for me lies not in the fact that the child had access to a gun but rather why would a seven yr. old boy want to kill another human being? Perhaps not only the parents should be blamed for poor parenting but society as a whole for it seems that not only are adults pushed and pulled by increasing stresses but also our children as well. My answer to your "whys?", because we (society) don't know what is important anymore (if we ever have). My opinion is that people don't realize that the best thing to be invested in can't be found in Fortune 500 or the stock exchange but rather in each other and I think it shows in daily interaction how little people actually care for each other and how little they think they effect each others lives. 7 billion raindrops each fighting to be the lake. Well so far that's my take on things, I could probably ramble on for hours upon hours on this subject. Thanks for bringing this important subject up, I hope you find a good way of dealing with your frustration, take care, Trevor |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Now I'm angry too but not at the gun. It turns out that the little boy lived in a "flophouse/crackhouse" with his uncle and several strangers (the boy's father, btw, is in jail). He found the gun (which was stolen, incidentally) in his house and took it to school. He evidently had a "scuffle" with the little girl, shot her, put the gun in his desk and went directly to the principal's office. The victims here are not victims of guns but of a breakdown of clearly defined lines of right and wrong and of good, sound parenting. If the parents of this little boy would have done their job properly then one more little girl would be alive today and one more little boy would be able to grow up, living a fairly normal life. It is pointless to direct our anger at guns (I guarantee you that drug dealers will always be able to get guns, whether they are legal or not) or at society. If we direct our indignation anywhere I think it is best directed at parents who neglect and/or abuse their children. I think that the people who subjected that child to such an unfit environment should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law and I wouldn't even be opposed to the death penalty here, even though that I know the elements for first degree murder are lacking. I cannot imagine my children being anywhere else but in the center of my life and it grieves me that a little boy, not much older than my oldest son, and countless others like him could be raised under such horrible circumstances. What I wonder is whether or not the parent(s) of this little boy feel any remorse over what happened. And if the answer is the negative, I wonder how we ever let things get so bad. Right now I would be willing to take that kid into my house and raise him myself. I would also be willing beat the tar out of those who REALLY caused this tragedy. Seething, Jim [This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 03-01-2000).] |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
I don't believe gun control is the answer. I'm not one of the 'right to bear arms' NRA lobbyists...but I do have a problem with losing my rights. And wouldn't that be losing one of them? This terrible crime was abhorrent to me! A child should never have access to a gun, let alone be so filled with anger that he would use it! Where did he learn this? TV? Movies? Video Games? Probably ..... but where did he learn that this was not the right way to act? From his father (in jail)..from his mother and her boyfriend (at home doing drugs and stealing)? Where is the guidance this child needed? I find it so sad that this little boy now will never be a child of innocence...I don't think he was ever innocent..the parents and their friends (the role models in his life) are to blame.. |
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WhtDove Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-22
Posts 9245Illinois |
This is a tragedy! First the kid was 6, and from what I heard, knew he did something bad, but don't understand fully just what he has done. He grew up where drugs and guns were a part of his everyday life. My daughter is 7 and I just couldn't imagine her being in class like last year with those little kids and ever, ever imagine worrying about someone at the age of 6 shooting another child. Everyone wants to point fingers at who's fault it is...the child will be removed from his home and put in the foster care system. I I hope that people will remember to pray for him, his parents and the family of the poor girl who's life was taken. It is a lack of God everywhere, and I don't see why people can't understand that. We can blame teachers, for not knowing, we can blame the girl for teasing him, we can blame it on society for the way it is. How bout taking a look into the home and schools, and one thing you'll find missing is GOD! Sorry, you got me going Marilyn. It is sickening, it is heartbreaking to say the VERY least! But remember the best thing you could ever do....IS PRAY! |
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PhaerieChild Senior Member
since 1999-08-30
Posts 1787Aloha, Oregon |
I don't know what the answer is. Guns are not to blame, the role models are. But to find good role models is very difficult. The foster care system "sometimes" is good but I know from first hand experience that it has a lot of problems. I was in a total of 17 foster homes and was molested in 14 of those. The system has not gotten any better from what I have seen (though I may be biased) It should not be up to the government to take care of the children but I can see no other solution. People who have children and have been arrested for crimes like these should have parental rights terminated and these children should be adopted to loving families who are willing to go the distance. Sometimes even that fails too because kids can become hard at an early age due to seeing and experiencing too much at such young ages. Some do not know the difference between right and wrong or if they do they simply do not care. To live in a world of violence, drugs, hatred, and fear can do a lot to the adult mind. A childs mind is so much more malleable and cannot assimilate differences in morals and values in that kind of environment. We as a society are not helping matters any in our pursuit of the almighty buck instead of the pursuit of happiness and helping kids to be productive members of society as a whole should be a happiness sort of endeavor. I don't know where the answers lie but I do know when prayer was taken from school and people were no longer allowed to discipline their children the world became an even unhealthier place to live. Even animals have better sense than we do sometimes. I feel for the parents of the little girl and for the little boy because he will never know childlike wonder, innocence that should never have been stolen, life without fear or anger. That in itself is a tragedy. But due to this I doubt he will ever feel remorse and because of this he will probably never know love. Poetry~ Words falling on paper, painting a dream. Shawna R. Holder Boise, Idaho |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
WhtDove: "It is a lack of God everywhere, and I don't see why people can't understand that." If people need God to be good people then we have no free will, which of course is untrue. I'm as free to curse God as He is to damn me. If there is a lack of God being everywhere, it is Him to blame and not us. Do you ask someone to tie your shoes for you? Of course not, why would you when you can do it yourself? "How bout taking a look into the home and schools, and one thing you'll find missing is GOD!" And here I thought it was a proper education and guidance and all along it was God  J/K, you are entitled to your beliefs as much as I am mine and I really mean no disrespect when I question religions but rather I'm just a curious cat. What I believe could be a missing elemant in homes and schools and society is thought....simply very few take the time to think deeply and openly about things and therefore rarely weigh the consequences of their actions in a long-run-grand-scheme-of-things type of way. No one wants to follow a thought until it ends but rather end it prematurely....perhaps no one is taught this way of thinking anymore. I could be wrong though... but I don't believe practising such things could ever be overly harmful. I don't think there is such a simple solution such as religion would like to present us with nor as I just did."But remember the best thing you could ever do....IS PRAY!" As Dionne Warwick once said, "Hope'in and a wishing and grinning and praying....". Why would I beg a God to do something that I can do myself? We, as a planet, can feed every person quite easily....so why should I pray to God for it? We can prolong life and raise the quality of life so why should we ask God to do it? We can put down our weapons and live peacefully as a whole rather than divided so why do we ask God for help? We can love thy neighbor...or at least respect our neighbors so why do we turn to God? If the bible is true and God and Jesus both said "don't test me" then why are we still praying/begging/pleading for divine intervention? Would you ask someone to tie your shoelaces? If the only thing that is stopping me from having a good life is prayer then I will refuse for eternity to pray. If no matter how good a person I am, I will not be "successful" without God and prayer, then I say to hell with Him. What kind of gift is it if we must pray and thank everyday and beg for betterment?....ohhhh, happy birthday, you now have to pray for me until you die if you want to live happily. The God spoken of in the bible does not exist that way, if He is that way then I don't want to go to heaven....the bible is the book of profits, not prophets. I'm not trying to turn this into a religious discussion but I have one more thing to add to this. If you've always been a christian then how do you know that your religion is the right one? I mean if you've had the same faith for a long time and never joined other belief systems than how can you tell that you are right? If we were all told from birth that we came from another planet, wouldn't most of us believe it? Anyways that's my whole take on that stuff, hope I didn't come off as offensive, I'm not claiming to have any answers nor am I trying to demean your faith. Take care, Trevor |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
I got this in an email from a friend, his opinion on this situation...it's interesting... I just loved the way the media handled the tragic shooting in Flint,MI. A neglected six year old child who lived in a Crack House brought a gun to school and killed a classmate. The child's father is currently in jail for parole violations. The child had been suspended earlier this school year for stabbing a classmate. The media immediately jumped from this story to the Democratic candidates debate on gun control. There is not doubt in my mind that the drug-dealing violent criminals with whom this child lived would have certainly obeyed gun control laws,registered the fire arm in question and used it responsibly.....yeah right! [This message has been edited by Poet deVine (edited 03-02-2000).] |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
BTW, I saw the boy's father (currently in jail) interviewed on Good Morning America this morning. He doesn't think he is responsible in any way for the shooting and he doesn't think his son ought to be held legally responsible (at least he and I agree on something) but he does think SOMEONE should be to blame. PdV, I agree with you. If the Democratic argument does not have enough substance for it to stand on its own then I think it is wrong (and dishonest) for the Democrats to try to pass poorly reasoned legislation by riding it on the waves of such an emotionally charged tragedy. Later. Jim [This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 03-02-2000).] |
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Saxoness
since 1999-07-18
Posts 1102Texas |
A hearty Ditto to WhtDove! God is the only way out. "Glory remains unaware of my neglected dwelling where alone I sing my tearful song which has charms only for me." -Charles Brugnot |
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just_another_fe Member
since 2000-02-05
Posts 483MICHIGAN |
THIS IS SO SAD. I AM FROM MICHIGAN ABOUT AN HOUR AWAY FROM FLINT.IT WAS A SIX YEAR OLD BOY THAT SHOT A SIX YEAR OLD LITTLE GIRL IN THE NECK. YES THE FATHER IS IN JAIL AND THE MOTHER WASNT THERE. THE MOTHER GOT EVICTED FROM HER HOUSE SO SHE ASKED THE CHILDS UNCLE IF HE COULD TAKE CARE OF HIM UNTIL SHE FOUND ANOTHER PLACE SO THAT THE KIDS WOULDNT BE OUT ON THE STREETS. THE GUN WAS WRAPPED UP IN A BLANKET ON THE BED AND THATS HOW THE KID GOT IT. HE SAYS HE SEEN HIS UNCLE LOADING IT AND THAT IS WHERE HE LEARNED TO LOAD THE GUN FROM.I THINK THAT HE LEARNED THIS FROM TV. NOT CARTOONS ANMD NOT VIDEO GAMES OR MUSIC BUT THE NEWS. THE MEDIA BLOWS THIS STUFF UP AND ITS ON TV EVERYNIGHT PUTTING NEW IDEAS IN THE HEADS OF LITTLE KIDS. AFTER THE LITTLE BOY SHOT THE GIREL HE TRIED TO HIDE THE GUN IN THE TRASH. RECALLING HE IS ONLY 6! HE HAS NO IDEA WHAT HE DID. THE ONLY THING THAT HE KNOWS IS THAT HE DID SOMETHING BAD AND THAT HE HURT SOMEONE. THERE IS NO WAY POSSIBLE THAT A 6 YEAR OLD COULD EVER UNDERSTAND THE SEVERITY OF THE CRIME THAT HE HAS COMMITED AND I AM VERY SAD FOR HIM BECAUSE ONCE HE IS OLD ENOUGH TO REALIZE WHAT HE DID A THINK HE WILL HIT BOTTOM.MY TEACHER IN MY INTRO TO JUVENILE JUSTICE CLASS SAID HE QUESTIONED HMJSELF BEING IN THIS LINE OF WORK FOR THE FIRST TIME ON TUESDAY WHEN THIS HAPPENED. THE UNITED STATES IS #1 IN MANY THINGS.WE ARE NUMBER 1 IN TECHNOLOGY, THE ARMY BUT WE ARE LAST IN PROTECTING OUR CHILDREN.(ACCORDING TO MY TEXT BOOK) |
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Marilyn Member Elite
since 1999-09-26
Posts 2621Ontario, Canada |
Well I now have more information then I had before. This child has a history of violence in the school, so what was done about it? Why wasn't that child taken from those parents when he did it the first time? Why wasn't it noticed that this was a troubled child and that his home life was odviously lacking. If a child is capable of this kind of violence at this age shouldn't we be able to do something? Where was the cildren's welfare department this time? They seem to be able to come into the homes of the good people when they think they should. Why can they not do the same when it is truely needed? My beef here is this; in a divorce case a mother or father can claim abuse or neglect and the social serves department has to come in a look at the situation. When a real tragedy is happening and a child is being raised in a bad situation they claim their hands are tied. What is wrong with us? There was a case where a child died by the hand of it's mother and child welfare knew this family. They were keeping an eye on them...STS but the child died anyway. Beaten to death. When are we going to put the welfare of our children before the rights of the parent? I am not talking about a child who thinks they are being treated unfairly because they had their T.V. privalages taken from them but children who are molested, beaten and neglected for REAL. When something like this happens the government talks about case load and being over worked. Oh to hell with that. Take those children out of the homes and give them some place healthy to live. Let's clean up our foster care programs and let these children have a shot at living. What chance do these children have when parents don't give a damn? I blame the parents..oh yes I do. I also blame the child welfare people because they had to know about this because of the other incident. There has to be blame laid so that we can take a good look at what happened and try to make sure it doesn't happen again. ok...the end of my rant for now. *sigh* |
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sonjes Senior Member
since 2000-02-18
Posts 564North Carolina |
You have no idea how sick I am of hearing that society is to blame. They say there is too much violence on tv, too much violence in movies, video games, etc. Well, sit back and think for a moment. If children get their ideas from these things, why would parents let them watch/play? So, put two and two together, and you get parents are to blame!!! There is a certain morality lacking in some American families today. I don't understand quite where it comes from. I like to think that I raise my children to respect human life and to appreciate what they do have. It is not that diificult to talk to your children about the things in life that are important. If you teach them values and morals, they will retain them. I did say teach, not preach. Gun control? I do not know. I cannot imagine this country changing the laws that we have in place now. Gun control does not make it any more difficult for criminals to obtain guns. It also would not make it more difficult for children to take their parents' guns. There is no one answer for an individual to reach. Media? Yes, media sensationalizes, but if it didn't, Americans would be disappointed. Once again, it is the duty of an individual to sort through what they believe and what they wish to practice. There will always be evil in the world, that is the way things are. Tragic, yes, but the truth. |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
What a huge difference in opinion over this - all with valid points to my mind. Personally, I find it very interesting thinking of how our society has changed over the last few centuries - not too long ago the most common death was of children - it was so common as to occur on a daily basis - also children were not regarded until recently in the way that we see them - as the life expectancy rate was so much lower, they were seen as little more than smaller adults. Also - death is a hidden thing in this society - sure we have it constantly on TV and everywhere around - and that is the point, it has been devalued as a thing for entertainment value. Now that our life expectancy rates are so high death is actually, it seems, subtly regarded as an unnatural phenomenon. This is a product of our society. This murder is a product of society. Parents are products of society. This boy's family are a product of society. Being involved in the shady side of life they are lower down on the social stratification scale - and I am seriously wondering how many people are TRULY shocked that this happened. It is expected and inserted into our minds that those lower down on 'our' social scale are more likely to commit crimes. It is only that this was committed by a child - an innocent child - that it is so shocking. Innocence is a product of our society. An instrument of death was made available to this child who due to this society's devaluation of death through constant exposure to entertaining violence - and most likely violence at home - did not understand what he was holding. Due to his place on the social stratification scale his evident trauma was ignored by his school. I am not surprised at all. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Severn, For the most part, I agree. If I understand you correctly, it is the shock that bothers. The event was inevitable given the way things work. Am I wrong? Brad |
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Mistikman Senior Member
since 2000-01-10
Posts 682San Jose, CA, USA |
Ok, time for my take on this, everyone brace yourself Movies, games, and media: I think it is utter BS when people blame this crap on the movies and such. They seem to think that movies make people angry individuals who hate and murder and rape. I was brought up on violent movies and violent games. I am about the most peaceful people you will ever meet. I play games such as doom and quake all the time. I was watching Terminator at age 6. If this whole poorly thought out idea were true, then I and about half the children in America would be going around killing people. We aren't. I believe that this rests mainly on poor parenting. This kid's parents were not exactly model parents. Almost every single person that I have known that has been aggressive has had a difficult family life with parents less than favorable. Now what I will concede that movies do is make the kids recognize a gun as an item of intimidation and fear. A kid at 6 years old is not going to learn to hate from movies. I have no doubt in my mind that that kid had no idea what would really happen when he pulled that trigger. He was most likely brought up like most of us on cartoons like GI Joe where no one can seem to hit anyone else with a gun, and no one dies. Even things like Loony Toons, where everyone gets right back up after every explosion and boulder. Once they get to the age of 10 or so they start to learn the difference between the movies and cartoons and real life. At that point, if they have decent parents who taught them to respect their fellow man, then they know that guns and such are bad, regardless of how much they saw them on television and games, and would not use them. Oh, and WhtDove, I am rather offended by that comment you made: It is a lack of God everywhere, and I don't see why people can't understand that. I am an atheist, as you probably know. God has absolutely no influence over the way I live my life. To this date I have yet to murder anyone. Belief and teachings in god do not make you a good person, nor do lack of them make you a bad person. I know many people who have no belief, or very little belief, and are very good people. I also know people who I do not consider good people, who fancy themselves highly religious. God does not fix peoples lives, people fix peoples lives. For some God can help, but in the end there needs to be more than just that. Just my 2 cents, gee words must be cheap nowadays |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Brad - of course this was the highly shortened version I gave (I think I will save my essays for when I have to actually DO them for uni...hehe) but I am thinking of your query. For me - it was not the shock - for it wasn't. For others I believe it is the shock, definitely and the tragedy that a child had committed the crime. An innocent child. I was thinking how all parts of our perception are molded by our social conventions and how they all intergrate to play a part in such things. If an 80 year old man had shot another 80 year old man - it would not cause a stir like this - for 80 year old men do not carry an aura of innocence such as children have; they are also near the end of a 'good long life' - when we are old it is the 'right' time to die. And death is simply less important on a community scale - we as a people see death as affecting others - not ourselves until there is a DIRECT effect - or a shocking one. Such as this. We wander around in a culture which promotes products to keep us young and sets aside death for the elderly or terminally ill. (yet interestingly spend millions on weapons of war...hmmmm - I won't start...). Children, in this era, are not supposed to die. I myself am horrifed that this child died, and the little boy's life has been robbed from him too. But not shocked. That is saddening too, for myself. No - I think these kids should both have had long lives - and many factors in our death denying culture contributed in the stealing of that. Not sure if I would use the word 'inevitable' - it is just highly understandable to me that this can happen given the factors I have mentioned. Does that clarify it at all? Mistikman - well, like I stated above - really, I think all things play a part. You cannot tell me that violence on TV fails to inform a child's life in any small way - of course it is going to have an influence - and of course not all of this influence will lead to a nation of murderers - but there IS an effect. I do agree with the age of 10 awareness increase in children - that is about the average age when kids can start processing complex consequences, maybe a bit younger - the age of 6? No way - he had no idea of what he was doing. I'll leave the God debate to WhiteDove... K< !signature--> 'Writing sharpens life; life enriches writing' Sylvia Plath [This message has been edited by Severn (edited 03-03-2000).] |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
This is something Ladycat sent me.  Alicat |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Oh, this is wonderful, Alicat! Thanks to you for sharing it and to Ladycat for sharing it with you! Denise |
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Ladycat
since 1999-07-05
Posts 782At the edge and a doorway,TX |
You know what I have to agree with you. This makes me angry too and to think that I'm about to have a baby in two months. This is not something that a mother wants to have to worry about, but it seems to be getting worse everyday.. Though I have to say that it is not always the parents fault due to the fact that some parents are single ppl that have to work two jobs to support their children. Both of my parents worked and I was a latch key kid, but that didn't make me a bad child. I think that sometimes it is in the mind of the child. They could stay at home and watch tv or go out and get in trouble. I was too scared that my parents would kill me if I did anything like that. The fear of God was put in me at a young age. Now, the parents that abuse and misuse their kids are a different story. They have no right to be parents and sometimes I think that you should have a licence to be a parent. Take a test and pass with a hundred before you get to raise a child. You have to get a licence to do everything else including getting married. Remember that that six year old was the product of a flop house (drug house). He was raised to know nothing better. It was not his fault. If you are raised in trash then you will become trash unless you have to strength to rise and overcome such, but that would be at a later age. For now, that child was imulating what he say and was learning from them there. The gun was conceled. I don't believe that every place that I go to should have metal detectors. I'm not a criminal, but I have to feel like one to keep the criminals out. The child wasn't with parents. He was staying at the flophouse with a relative till the parents got out of jail. As a soon to be mother, I can say something that I have said before. What about putting prayer back in school? Have you realized that none of these things happened at a catholic or military school? That is because they care more and have strict rules. If it was my child I would not only be grieving, but I would have alot of hatred in my heart toward not only the parents, but the child too. It would drive me nuts. I would hate to think of the kind of revenge that would harbor in my mind after something like that. Even just hearing about it made my head hurt and the tears that came might as well have been blood. Why that poor girl? A school bully gone too far. It use to be just fighting and now this. Who is next? What is next? I'm so angry too. I understand. When I was in school nothing like this would have even happened. Maybe a knife fight in high school, but guns. These are the worst things that ppl could get there hands on and they are not just hurting anymore. They are doing permanent damage.... This hurt will stay with me from the Colorado shooting and the other Colorado shooting at the resturant and now this. When will it stop? I will step down now... Love, Lady  [This message has been edited by Ladycat (edited 03-04-2000).] |
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Mistikman Senior Member
since 2000-01-10
Posts 682San Jose, CA, USA |
Ok, heres my take on the poem Alicat: It is excellently written, but it sufferes from a fundamental flaw in logic. The poem is basically saying that since A happened, then B happened, then A caused B. It is completely ignoring that C, D, E, F, G, and H have all also happened before B happened. The poem is attempting to link 2 things that are not necessarily related. If I were to say that because people in the KKK are religious, then religion causes hate and intolerance, you would be extremely offended, because I would be using improper logic to come to a very wrong answer. There is rarely just one cause for anything. Many of these kids who commit horrible acts upon one another have bad family lives at home. I think the degradation of the family structure in America has much more of an influence on the violence than anything. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Ok, time to close this thread. For continuation on this topic, please create a new post reflecting such. Alicat Moderator |
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