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The abortion debate??
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The abortion debate?? |
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neveah5 Member
since 2002-11-22
Posts 197Ohio |
What does everyone think of it??? Should abortion stay legal or should they overturn it? |
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quietlydying
since 2001-06-10
Posts 935the wonderful land of oz |
no comment. /jen/ 'Christianity is the complete negation of common sense and sound reason.' |
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brian madden Member Elite
since 2000-05-06
Posts 4374ireland |
now this is one sure way of opening a big can of worms. this post would probably be best suited to the philosophy forum. Personally I am pro life with the exception of extreme cases such as rape, i view the foetus as a living organism. This issue is a complex one, women can have unwanted pregancies and no way to support the child. I think that it should be available, but there is the danger that it will be abused, used as a quick solution. I will never, being a man, be in a position where I will have to make the decision therefore my thoughts on the matter are some what limited. You can condemn or condone something but until it affects you it is impossible to make a clear assessment on the subject. THese are just my feelings on the issue. I will say no more for the time being. got hips like cinderella must be having a good shame talking sweet about nothing cookie i think you're tame" The Pixies [This message has been edited by brian madden (01-21-2003 07:40 PM).] |
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WinterWren Senior Member
since 2002-12-01
Posts 1044...Coming to |
While I think in my personal opinion abotion is wrong all around. If you don't want the baby you can always put it up for adoption. It is a living breathing human being. Even if abortion was illegal people would still do it. So making it so doesn't solve the problem. WinterWren |
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anonymousfemale Member Elite
since 2000-02-02
Posts 2797Limbo |
Keep it legal. It's cruel to bring children into a world that will only screw them over. Don't steal - the Government hates competition. |
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quietlydying
since 2001-06-10
Posts 935the wonderful land of oz |
uh, techincally not breathing since it still is in the womb. /jen/ 'Christianity is the complete negation of common sense and sound reason.' |
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neveah5 Member
since 2002-11-22
Posts 197Ohio |
Are any of you close to someone whos been affected by an abortion? My mother had an abortion when she was 16..5 years before I came along. It kinda makes me sad to think that I could've had the older brother that I always wanted..then I think, well if she had that baby, i might not have came along. |
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Jaime
Registered
MemberPosts 250 |
A friend of a friend had an abortion not too long ago (she's 18). Also, my Aunt Cindy had an abortion a long time ago when she was a teen and after the abortion she could no longer get pregnant. First of all, I think that using abortion as a form of birth control (like the pill, etc.) is disgusting. There is a girl at my school who has had 4 abortions because she doesn't use condoms and she's not on any form of birth control. She just recently decided to keep the one she's pregnant with now. I feel sorry for the child. Somebody should just sew that stupid whore up. I am pro-choice because I believe that a woman should have the right to choose. However, my choice would be to not have an abortion. I cannot stand the idea of preventing something the chance at life. But that's my choice.. as I said.. I think everyone should be able to make that choice for themselves. - Jaime Shiva went on break now look at how much it's gonna take to make this place a space where we can breathe. |
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Miah Senior Member
since 2002-08-26
Posts 1062Pennsylvania |
What about the fathers? where are they? it is very simple, if you don't want a baby be responsible enough to use protection. I believe in the right to do whatever you want to YOUR body, but you are also responsible for the life you have growing inside of you. I am pro life, however oddly enough I think that it should be legal. Only watched very closely. I do not believe in aborition, but I can empathize with woman of rape, that is a hard thing to handle. Although I do not condone woman that get abortions, I also don't condemn them either. I just hate when women get abortions like they change their underware. [This message has been edited by Miah (01-21-2003 11:41 PM).] |
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WinterWren Senior Member
since 2002-12-01
Posts 1044...Coming to |
Well it'll Eventually be breathing anyway. WinterWren |
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quietlydying
since 2001-06-10
Posts 935the wonderful land of oz |
but not at the moment, which defeats the purpose of your statement. /jen/ 'Christianity is the complete negation of common sense and sound reason.' |
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neveah5 Member
since 2002-11-22
Posts 197Ohio |
I had to write a paper in school a few years ago about the abortion debate..i actually had to choose whether i was pro choice or pro life. it was so hard to choose that my paper actually sounded like i was riding the fence. I believe that everyone has the right to choose and control what happens with their bodies. I also believe that getting rid of something because it compromises your lifestyle or future hopes and plans is a selfish thing to do. The whole rape situation is very sensitive. I guess that would be a totally different story. I also wonder if it is possible to find out early enough in the pregnancy that the child could have something severely wrong with it what exactly would be the best thing to do.. |
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PoetryIsLife
since 2001-10-27
Posts 1763...in my boxers... |
It has all the charicteristics of life, and would be life if it were not aborted, so I've never really understood how it's been seen as anything other then murder. It's always puzzled me. I mean, if we sucked the brains out of a adult human, it would be murder. Simply because it hasn't taken a 'breath' yet, it's not alive? And therefore doesn't feel pain? I'm not sure if an unborn child can feel pain within the womb, but I would have to imagine, having the contents of your brain sucked out would have to be unpleasent. I was born two months premature, because my mother's blood type was killing me. If she had had an abortion, I wouldn't be here. So, how can the baby the I was in her womb, slowly being killed by her blood not be considered alive? ~Titus Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. |
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anonymousfemale Member Elite
since 2000-02-02
Posts 2797Limbo |
Ti, nobody said that it wasn't alive. Jen simply pointed out that it wasn't breathing yet. You can still be alive and have a machine breathing for you. Same thing in a sense. I've been close to women who have had abortions for a multitude of reasons. Perhaps I am slightly biased because I don't agree with anything that is pro-life but an abortion is a persons own right to choose. If the father want to have a child, perhaps he should choose a woman that shares the fondness. "Write something, even if it's just a suicide note." -- Gore Vidal |
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Miah Senior Member
since 2002-08-26
Posts 1062Pennsylvania |
Maybe someone can help me here. I remember reading somewhere that this guy was born without arms because his mother was in the process of having an abortion and the doctor stopped because he wanted more money, which she did not have. So she wound up having the child which was born with no arms due to the doctors half proceedure. This man is now I think a great Pianist. Actually, I am just wondering if anyone heard of him, if they did maybe they can shed more light on it. This abortion subject made me think of this story but for the life of me I can't remember all the details. Maybe someone else can remember. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Miah, I know the guy you're talking about, but I've never heard that his lack of arms was due to abotched abortion... (?) Anyway, I was listening to NPR yesterday, and they were talking about how in mainstream culture, if you're anywhere between the two extremes, they don't want you. By polarizing the debate and preventing any true dialogue on national talk shows, especially on TV, they get heated debates and eventually totally non-constructive fighting- AKA ratings. However, I do feel that most of us do ride the fence- I know I do. I heard a pro-choice activist talking about the republican government's recent measures to 'elevate the fetus' and I started thinking... it's a human life. If I had a human life burgeoning inside of me (despite the fact that I have no desire or intention to get pregnant right now), I sure as hell would elevate it... But do I have the right to tell other women that they must elevate their fetuses? It's such a hard call to make, because while a fetus is an individual life which, in my opinion, should be preserved at all cost, it is also part of the woman's body. How can you legislate what goes on inside a woman's womb? I do think that partial-birth abortions absolutely should be banned- I mean, what, did you carry the baby most of the way to tem and then just change your mind? No, doesn't work that way... if you're going to do that, why not just remove the baby via C-section and if them mother doesn't want it, make it a ward of the state? I am also appalled by women who have multiple abortions... I mean, I don't know how you can legislate that, I don't know if it's possible or even preferable to limit the amount of legal abortions a woman can have... but it doesn't matter, because there'll always be a black market waiting, and that's the bottom line with making anything illegal... it will always be available... and I would personally prefer that women have access to safe facilities... the same way I would prefer access to safe recreational drugs and safe prostititution. |
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Miah Senior Member
since 2002-08-26
Posts 1062Pennsylvania |
hahah, you know, I know the guy your talking about, and I believe I'm thinking about someone else. OH'well this is going to drive me nuts till I find out.  PS. I think people "ride the fence" because this is not just a black and white situation. It's not abortion or no abortion, pro life or pro choice. It envolves many layers. If that mades sense. haha that is the only way I could explain it. [This message has been edited by Miah (01-22-2003 10:23 AM).] |
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WinterWren Senior Member
since 2002-12-01
Posts 1044...Coming to |
No it doesn't defeat the purpose, if you take out breathing it says, "A living human being." and that still applies. All of that is just my personal opinion and your entitled to yours, so please don't pick on my words. WinterWren |
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quietlydying
since 2001-06-10
Posts 935the wonderful land of oz |
sucking the brain out of an adult? really ti. i expected more from you. waaaay more than that. ::shakes her head:: /jen/ 'Christianity is the complete negation of common sense and sound reason.' |
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PoetryIsLife
since 2001-10-27
Posts 1763...in my boxers... |
Eh ... not sure what you mean by that, but okay. This is not a light topic by any means, certainly one prevalent among today's society. It means a great deal to me personally. My response was what it was, with time and responsibilities limiting. I've done some research, and I chose one example for my reply. It's a pertinent one, so, I'm not really sure what was so off about it. Feel free to email me, if you like. Sincerely, Titus Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. |
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Allysa
since 1999-11-09
Posts 1952In an upside-down garden |
Abortion, eh? Hmmm.... I'll express my views through my situation... I do not believe in using abortion as a form of birth control... A friend of mine recently made the decision to become sexually active and made a promise to both her mother (who knows) and myself that she would remain on birth control and using condoms the entire time... then, a few weeks ago, her and her boyfriend (she's 15, he's 18 or 19, I don't remember) decided to have sex without a condom to see what it feels like and she can't remember if she has taken her birth control all the times when she was supposed and now she thinks she's pregnant... thinks would be the key word, but still, it's possible. I asked her what she would do about it and she said "kill it" simply because she didn't feel like using a condom. Hmm. And technically, isn't a fifteen year old having sex with an eighteen year old illegal? When it's rape, or incest, some abortion is okay with me, but still... I dunno. I do know that if I was sexually active and using some form of birth control and I got pregnant, I would probably want a way out. Not saying that I would use that way... Don't take this the wrong way, this is the most honest thing I can think of (and it's not going to happen, seeing as to how I have no desire what so ever to become sexually active anytime in the next five years) I would be more likely to take my own life away than that of an innocent baby. Some people just need a way out and they see it as the easiest way out. "Wie ein Quadrat in einem Kreis, eck' ich immer wieder an obwohl ich doch schon lange weiß, daß ich niemals ändern kann." ~Wizo [This message has been edited by Allysa (01-23-2003 10:41 AM).] |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Hush made much sense, indeed. "I do think that partial-birth abortions absolutely should be banned- I mean, what, did you carry the baby most of the way to tem and then just change your mind?" ~ Democrats also support this action, figuratively, in the political womb...Does anyone remember the last New Jersey Senatorial election? [This message has been edited by Opeth (01-23-2003 12:21 PM).] |
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Jenn Cirrincione
since 2000-07-02
Posts 2107Fl |
Ahhhh abortion. Sensitive subject. I have several views on this, and I, too, ride the fence. Life is not as black and white as some people like to think. Pro-Choice: 1- It is considered unconstitutional to limit one's right to smoke tobacco or consume alcohol even though, potentially, it could harm others. We all know how well prohibition went over. I shudder to think what a country would be like to live in where we cease to have control of our own medical care? I dislike smoking, and I think it's a disgusting habit- but it doesn't make a person bad, it's still their right to do so and HOPEFULLY they will do so responsibly. Just because a percentage of those utilizing abortion will do so irresponsibly, i.e. use as birth control, does not call for illegalization. 2- Restrictions are ludicrous. How can we say only in the case of: rape, incest...etc... we cannot prove it. Besides it would bring about false accusations country-wide. Some people are unscrupulous, and if we put limitations on abortion, there will be many people falsly put on trial for abuse or rape. If rape isn't reported right away, it cannot be really proved, besides the cases that are already happening aren't always reported because of feelings of shame or guilt. Suddenly now they have to report this or cannot get an abortion? Watch them find a way. 3- Making something illegal does not stop it from happening, it only makes it more dangerous, and makes for more crime. Once again, prohibition. Abortion would go underground, black-market, and dangerous. It's a terrible thought. Many will die or be hurt in the process. I know this arguement is something sort of like marijuana legalization offerings, make it legal, regulate and tax the heck out of it. But that's something altogether different as it is not yet legal and is a substance already regulated for medical purpose anyway. 4-Abortions are sometimes called for. Being Catholic, and never having had an abortion myself, it's hard, morally, to say that. But it's true. I'd imagine it's never easy on the mother or father, if they have a conscience about it, but sometimes to save the life of the mother, or prevent a baby from entering the world with a horrid life-threatening cancer or other illness it is needed. Pro-life: 1- Where are the men's rights? When do they get a say-so? Maybe they want to 'elevate the fetus'. Maybe they would take the baby and raise it if the mother couldn't. There should be some protection for them as well. 2- The origin of abortion laws are recently discovered to be unfounded. Roe v. Wade, the ever popular descision turning case and it's sister case Doe v. somebody I cannot at the moment recall, were said to be scams and enlargements of the truth to overturn state abortion laws. One woman, I believe it was the Doe case, said she never even wanted an abortion, and documents were forged. If this is found to be true, perhaps we should rethink our laws and reopen these cases. 3- Some women give reason for abortion, even partial birth, as they cannot mentally or physically handle the labor process- however most abortions, if not all, induce labor as to access the fetus. So the option almost seems ridiculous. 4- Amniocentesis is a process by which a needle extracts placenta/fetal fluid and tests it for gene deformities. Sometimes, parents can use this to decide whether or not to have the child if it's unhealthy from the womb. However, sometimes the process is incorrect, or those who may posess the possiblility to have a deformity may NEVER develop it! What a chance to take, why even risk it? You could have a beautiful child. There are just a few final words I have on this. Morally, we as human beings have an obligation to do the right thing in the end. To be true to human life and make a choice we can truly live with in the end. If you feel that your fetus is a life, can you live with the choice to kill life? If you use it as birth control, just because you can, can you live with that? We all need to decide this for ourselves, but that is really the point, it is our body, and everyone still deserves that choice. "I keep looking, looking for something more." Sara Evans |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Why argue over this matter? It is illogical to do so. Abortion and legality ~ non-issue; let it be legal, if you happen to think it is wrong, don't utilize the service. If you are a woman and you do not want to give birth to a child and desire to abort it, do so. Why should that matter to anyone else, but her and her own loved ones? It shouldn't. It is only when we as a single or group{s} of people, inject personal beliefs (especially religious), political idealogies, and moralistic viewpoints into this subject matter, that the issue becomes charged, polarizing, and ultimately destructive. Live your own life and quit worrying about what another woman does with her own body. [This message has been edited by Opeth (01-23-2003 12:34 PM).] |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Opeth- 'Abortion and legality ~ non-issue; let it be legal, if you happen to think it is wrong, don't utilize the service. If you are a woman and you do not want to give birth to a child and desire to abort it, do so. Why should that matter to anyone else, but her and her own loved ones? It shouldn't.' To a lot of people, that's like saying "well, let murder be legal, just don't practice it." I'm not comfortable with taking an extreme stand like that, but I can definitely see and even, to limited extent, agree with that type of logic. Just one other thing I wanted to point out... I get really sick really fast of hearing the "It's okay for rape and incest" argument... why is it only okay when it's not the woman's fault? This, to me, indicates that abortion rights are tied much more closely with whether a woman is acting according to a moral standard than to the sanctity of a child's life. Give me a break.. is a life less valuable when it is produced by an unwilling act? You can't have your cake and eat it too... either it's about a baby's life, or it's about a woman's actions. This attitude is so pervasive that it's become a chorus, a dogma. If it's not the woman's fault, then she should be able to abort... but not if she made the conscious choice. Why? Like I said, I do ride the fence, and I don't feel comfortable with drawing a line when it comes to another woman's body, but I have more respect for someone who makes a stand one way or another (or refuses to make a stand either way) than someone who likes to make one stand one day, and another stand another day. *gets off soapbox* |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"To a lot of people, that's like saying "well, let murder be legal, just don't practice it." I'm not comfortable with taking an extreme stand like that, but I can definitely see and even, to limited extent, agree with that type of logic." ~ If that be so, then they are looking at this issue in an illogical manner. There is no comparison between aborting a fetus that lives inside a person to killing a person already born. That fetus belongs to (actually is an extension or part of) the woman who is carrying it. The act of murder involves taking the life of another individual who does not belong to the one commiting the act. Again, why be concerned over what another woman does with her body with regards to this issue? I find it rather odd that one would think my stand is "extreme." I believe it to be "right down the middle" and the natural solution to ending this debate. [This message has been edited by Opeth (01-23-2003 01:20 PM).] |
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neveah5 Member
since 2002-11-22
Posts 197Ohio |
I have to agree with Opeth. People are going to have their opinions on what is "right" or "wrong". Nobody can change what will happen by making it illegal. So why do people need to make such a deal out of what others choose to do in their lives? One group should not be able to determine what another group can and cannot do legally. So let it be legal so those who feel the need to have an abortion can get it safely, and let those who oppose it stop making woman who choose to have abortions feel like they are wrong or commiting a crime. Everyone will find something new to go against and complain about. So I guess the hopes of that are slim |
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neveah5 Member
since 2002-11-22
Posts 197Ohio |
"One group should not be able to determine what another group can and cannot do legally." let me put that differently. When it comes down to abortion, one extremist group should not be able to decide for other woman around the country whether they have to keep a child or not. That choice should be available, as it is now. It is already regulated quite strictly. It would be one thing if a woman was being forced into aborting a fetus. But its a choice. a choice every woman has. I as a woman would never choose abortion, but I am greatful that we have that choice available. |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"When it comes down to abortion, one extremist group should not be able to decide for other woman around the country whether they have to keep a child or not. That choice should be available, as it is now. It is already regulated quite strictly. It would be one thing if a woman was being forced into aborting a fetus. But its a choice. a choice every woman has." ~ There is much wisdom to be found in those words. |
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neveah5 Member
since 2002-11-22
Posts 197Ohio |
Oh I hope your not pickin fun at me Opeth  |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
No "pickin" on my part ~ I was most sincere in what I said. |
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Jenn Cirrincione
since 2000-07-02
Posts 2107Fl |
----- It is already regulated quite strictly.---- I'm not so sure about this, now. Do you mean because it's legal and safe? Because how is it regulated so strictly? I beleive women can get this procedure done pretty much no matter what their reason, right? "I keep looking, looking for something more." Sara Evans |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I have stated my views on this so many times I am weary of myself. I am pro-choice. I don't feel a need to defend that either. I am, however, pleased that the abortion rate is at an all time low...thanks to the "morning after" pill. There are some things impossible to legislate. |
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neveah5 Member
since 2002-11-22
Posts 197Ohio |
http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/spib.html |
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PoetryIsLife
since 2001-10-27
Posts 1763...in my boxers... |
""When it comes down to abortion, one extremist group should not be able to decide for other woman around the country whether they have to keep a child or not. That choice should be available, as it is now. It is already regulated quite strictly. It would be one thing if a woman was being forced into aborting a fetus. But its a choice. a choice every woman has."" I agree completely that women, men, everyone should be able to live their lifes within scope of the law, with freedom to be who they are. I'm a very open-minded, unjudgemental person, in general, but... I cannot see how a woman should have the choice to kill a life. Whether it's a fully-formed body or not, it still is a life, one that is or will be. There may be those regulations, but I'm not sure I would see that as strict control. More on the opposite side of the pendelum. I know everyone has their own opinions, and most people believe they are right. I think it's great people care enough to discuss their point's of veiws, with an openness of mind to further changes in opinions. ~Titus Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. --Aldous Huxley [This message has been edited by PoetryIsLife (01-23-2003 06:16 PM).] |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Opeth, by extreme stand, I meant my example, not your post. But... 'There is no comparison between aborting a fetus that lives inside a person to killing a person already born.' A fetus, one developed to a certain point, has a brain. It has been indicated by scientific experiments (as well as botched abortions in which fetuses didn't die immediately) that it feels pain. It has a heart that beats and lungs which, once given access to air, will breathe. I can see how one would argue that a woman's womb is under her jurisdiction, and not a state or nation's... but I simply cannot fathom how you can say there is no comparison. Let's go back to partial-birth abortions- the comment you complimented me on... they deliver everything but the baby's face and then suck out it's brain. You can't compare this to murder, when, if fully removed, the child would inhale and begin to cry? And... 'The act of murder involves taking the life of another individual who does not belong to the one commiting the act.' Grinning here... you've got some verbal legwork going on, but let me pose a counter-argument to you. In a patriarchal society which until very recently (and in some cultures and instances, not quite yet) treated wives as a man's personal posession, can't that argument be used to justify that I, as husband, have the right to murder my wife (err, abort? terminate?) because she belongs to me? You're treading a thin line here, and I hesitate to accept the argument that because a fetus belongs to someone, they have the right to take that life away... of course, I also hesitate to say that I have a right to deny, or throw my voice in with the crowds that attempt to deny, other women that choice. The moral questions involved are very trying... how far does relativism go? What is universally right or wrong? Why do the same right-wingers who champion "pro-life" initiatives plow headlong into a war which will inevitable kill people? (grinning again... but I think the hypocrisy involved is valid to criticize...) The biggest reason I get my feet wet on the pro-choice side of that fence is that I feel that (as I mentioned earlier) the term "pro-life" has a lot more to do with "Pro-telling-everyone-else-how-to-behave-according-to-our-conservative-Christian-morals." Ain't gonna fly by me... you can't manipulate women's (or, moreover, men's) behavior by imposing upon women dire, inescaple biological consequences to their (or their boyfriends') actions. |
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neveah5 Member
since 2002-11-22
Posts 197Ohio |
"..they deliver everything but the baby's face and then suck out it's brain. You can't compare this to murder, when, if fully removed, the child would inhale and begin to cry?" I just had a little girl about 2 months ago..even to think about this happening breaks my heart. Then again I would think it would make any person sick to think of it. I will say, in my opionion, that this should be VERY strictly regulated and only used in situations where its a necessity (although I cant imagine a situation that desperate). |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Abortion was never legalized. The Roe v. Wade decision threw out the laws on the books in every state that had a law or restriction, but there never was a law, per se, legalizing it. There was just a void left that allowed abortions to be performed, preventing prosecution of the act. Back in the day (late sixties), those who pushed for the abortion laws to be thrown out did so by mounting a campaign based on lies: fake polls, fake statistics (claiming the number of women who died from illegal abortions was around 10,000 per year, when in actuality it was 200-250 per year, for instance), constantly appealing to a woman's 'right' to privacy (which is not one of the 'rights' listed in the Constitution, by the way), and in so doing, trashed the Preamble to the Constitution, which expressly states the Constitution's purpose as guaranteeing the rights of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" for "ourselves and for our posterity" (posterity = future generations). Every victim of abortion has been deprived of their right to life, as expressly stated in the Constitution. The ultra liberal left element in society waged such a masterful media campaign, ensuring that their sinister objective was met, i.e., population control, political control of the masses, tax free cash (abortion is a cash up front procedure)for most of the "doctors" who perform abortions (there's an oxymoron since doctors take an oath "to do no harm"), harvesting human tissue, and in the case of partial-birth abortions, havesting body parts for research, after sucking out the brain, crushing the baby's head (making sure that the baby comes down the birth canal feet first, otherwise if the head came out first, it would "legally" be murder). It's truly amazing what people can be brainwashed into considering acceptable if enough money is thrown into a media blitz, even one udergirded with lies. Maybe we can get human fetuses declared an "endangered species", or a "species at risk" (a common cause of the ultra liberal left, for everything and anything except humans, it seems)? Babies are killed, mothers, also victims of this well financed brainwashing scheme, live with the life-long scars of the guilt, regret and loss. Who are the winners in all of this? Not them, that's for sure. The so-called winners can be found where the power and money are found. 42 million babies and counting,(and of that number, 17 million black babies, the balance being spread out over all other races), not a "product of conception" or a "tissue mass", but human beings in the process of development, have been deprived of that right. I hope to see the day when murder is again called murder and all future generations realize their right to life. |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"I can see how one would argue that a woman's womb is under her jurisdiction, and not a state or nation's... but I simply cannot fathom how you can say there is no comparison." ~ One must "step outside" from all viewpoints and what they have been taught in order to gain understanding. It can be done. "Let's go back to partial-birth abortions- the comment you complimented me on... they deliver everything but the baby's face and then suck out it's brain. You can't compare this to murder," ~ Partial birth abortions is a different issue, and I admit I am not "up to snuff" on this procedure. From what I do know, the child is already developed into a living being. Therefore, with what I do know about partial birth abortion, I would advocate the illegality of this process. However, if legal, it would be, as I stated earlier, the business of the woman, her loved ones, and her doctor, not mine. "but let me pose a counter-argument to you. In a patriarchal society which until very recently (and in some cultures and instances, not quite yet) treated wives as a man's personal posession, can't that argument be used to justify that I, as husband, have the right to murder my wife (err, abort? terminate?) because she belongs to me?" ~ Non sequitur. Two completely and non-related issues, indeed. "You're treading a thin line here, and I hesitate to accept the argument that because a fetus belongs to someone, they have the right to take that life away..." ~ Not only belongs, but more importantly is a part or extension of the woman. "I also hesitate to say that I have a right to deny, or throw my voice in with the crowds that attempt to deny, other women that choice." ~ And with that being said, we have come full circle, back to my original opinion given. "Why do the same right-wingers who champion "pro-life" initiatives plow headlong into a war which will inevitable kill people? (grinning again... but I think the hypocrisy involved is valid to criticize...)" ~ I find no hypocracy here. These are two completely and separate issues. One must have or learn the ability to separate issues in order for logic to dictate, which it should. [This message has been edited by Opeth (01-24-2003 08:13 AM).] |
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Spice Senior Member
since 2001-04-13
Posts 1266Resting in my cardboard box. |
I think aborotion should only be allowed up until a certain time...Which, luckily, is the law in most states. Past the first tri-mester the woman having an abortion must be in a life-threatening situation and/or have consent from doctorS. Using it as a form of birth control is wrong, yes. However I disagree with the comment stated on the first page stating "If you don't want a baby use protection" ..... Protection doesn't always work. Even if using MULTIPLE forms. And no, just because you are mature and responsible enought to have sex doesn't mean you should be responsible enough to have the child. (Because not everyone is mature and responsible enough to be having sex in the first place...) When I was in 8th grade there was a girl in 7th grade pregnant here....She actually had the baby! And kept it for herself! Children raising children? No...The burden is on her MOTHER! And the girl, she basically just plays house with the baby....she can't REALLY know what she is doing. You shouldn't cover up one mistake by making another. Sometimes abortions are the best. Whether it be for health reasons, emotional reasons such as rape, logical reasons such as FAR too young, etc. And none of this adoption crap either...There is still the whole idea of YOU STILL HAD A BABY! There is still alittle mini you walking around...who, later in life, may want to find you...Or who, may never GET adopted, or who may be hurt the rest of it's life wondering why it's mother didn't want him or her.....etc etc....Adoption isn't an easy way out. Those of you saying it so matter-of-factly should think about that. It isn't an easy option, it's not as logical as you may think. It's the woman's choice. People are going to abuse this just as they abuse everything else. However, if it is made illegal, there will be ill equipped and poorly sanitized underground labs pop up everywhere where people who are desperate enough, who need it enough WILL go to and end up seriously hurting themselves. It annoys me that people disagree with laws or practices that effect them in no way at all...and they actually fight it like crazy just to make themselves feel better cause they think they are doing something that make THEM feel better, or maybe even make them feel better as a religious person etc... If you disagree with abortion- don't have one. But don't screw other people over that don't feel the same way you do. Abortion is something one would never REALLY understand until he or she was REALLY slapped into that situation....Whether it by them, theirself was raped etc and felt the need to have an abortion, they were having horrible health problems and needed an abortion, or their 13, 14 year old daughter dropped to peer pressure and had sex or even worse, was raped and became pregnant.... Share Jesa, Stroke Jesa, Pet Jesa, Love Jesa. [This message has been edited by Spice (01-24-2003 09:50 AM).] |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Opeth- '~ One must "step outside" from all viewpoints and what they have been taught in order to gain understanding. It can be done.' Yes, yes, I know, critical thinking, objectivity, your ever-present dogmatic assertion... but I fail to see how a critical viewpoint can accept that ending a human life, or even the zygote which will in turn become a fetus, which will in turn become a baby, cannot be at least compared to murder. You can compare just about anything to anything... I'm not saying that "It's murder, that's that..." I'm just saying that there is plenty of ground for comparison. A fetus is a human being in progress. Aren't children the same thing? I fail to see the difference between life in utero and life delivered. It's still life... one might argue the nature of that life, and I recognize that argument as, at least, valid, although I don't accept it. You can devalue a zygote or fetus as much as you want- but the fact remains that it is still the same form of life, the same species, that all of us are. To think of it otherwise is completely counter to common sense. '"but let me pose a counter-argument to you. In a patriarchal society which until very recently (and in some cultures and instances, not quite yet) treated wives as a man's personal posession, can't that argument be used to justify that I, as husband, have the right to murder my wife (err, abort? terminate?) because she belongs to me?" ~ Non sequitur. Two completely and non-related issues, indeed.' I don't think so- if we're going to essentially reduce human life to property, let's make a straight call and point out where it's been done before. Until very recently, men were legally allowed to 'discipline' their wives (remember 'rule of thumb'?), and while there are situational differences (chiefly, that a woman is not inside of her husband) we're still in the same ballpark. The idea is one person having a jurisdiction over another because of where society builds fences and draws lines. '~ Not only belongs, but more importantly is a part or extension of the woman.' Do I have the right to kill my siamese twin? (And don't tell me it's illogical because I'll probably kill myself in the process... that's not what I'm asking and somehow I see a hedge coming. Not everyone is endowed with the exquisite common sense you have, Opeth..  )'~ I find no hypocracy here. These are two completely and separate issues. One must have or learn the ability to separate issues in order for logic to dictate, which it should.' Ah, you see them as seperate issues... but a pro-lifer crusades on behalf of fetal life... how can someone with the title 'pro-life' be so apt to kill? That's my point. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Spice- 'Abortion is something one would never REALLY understand until he or she was REALLY slapped into that situation....Whether it by them, theirself was raped etc and felt the need to have an abortion, they were having horrible health problems and needed an abortion, or their 13, 14 year old daughter dropped to peer pressure and had sex or even worse, was raped and became pregnant....' While I completely disagree with your assertion that sometimes abortion is the best choice (It's not... nobody is better off not having lived at all) I totally agree with the above. I'm one of the only people I know who never got sick of the Everlast song "What it's like"... The only way to acheive a true dialogue is to open yourself to really hearing another person's experience with open ears... understanding debases the foundation for hate... and if we could quit screaming back and forth across the spectrum, and really try to understand the things we honestly think we could never understand, maybe more people could work together to address the factors that contribute to unwanted pregnancies. Is it gonna happen? *sigh* doubt it. There are no Mr. Smiths in Washington. |
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clve527 Member
since 2002-07-08
Posts 200 |
Who are we to judge anyone else's decision? |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Hush, One could argue that there is a comparison, but looking at the issue in direct manner, I just do not see the corelation because I view the the fetus as an extension of a living person = the woman carrying the fetus, and that fetus is not a separate entity, like a being who is already born is. And to take a life that is not a part of you is murder. I will give you this, there may come a time, in the womb, when that fetus becomes more than an extension (such as you eloquently discussed about partial birth abortion), and this is an area that I am not familiar with, and very well could compared to murder, but I don't even know if that is legal or not. However, with that being said... the law allows for the woman to choose to abort the fetus growing inside of her. It is not my business what she does with her own fetus. And if she is abiding within the law, so be it. It is not for me to judge or to codemn, or to ridicule and scream and rant, etc. Making it a political/moral/religious/etc issue only produces a furthering of polarization between those of the opposite sides, and does for society, not a dang thing (well, except give votes to either a dem or rep ). This does not necessarily mean that I, personally am pro-choice. It means that I accept the law and the right that a woman has over her own body, which is something none of your analogies/comparisons match. |
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Kellie_Cantrell Senior Member
since 2002-05-22
Posts 1667New York |
I think it is choice, and that is how I feel about it. I believe that each situation is different and you have look at each situation in that situations shoes. You can't know what it is like to be raped, and then haveababy from it unless it happens to you. So I think that it sure be pure choice. Remember all choices have consequences and the consequence of abortion is usually depression or even suicide. (¨`·.·´¨) (¨`·.·´¨) |
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neveah5 Member
since 2002-11-22
Posts 197Ohio |
there was a show on HBO showing pro life extremists, and this one guy killed 2 people outside an abortion clinic, at least one of them was an abortion doctor. This man was sitting there saying all this stuff about how god wouldve wanted him to do it. and he can sit there and say that god hates people who kill...??? i see those people as hypocrites who used god as an excuse. |
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WindSong Member
since 2002-12-23
Posts 313Long Island, New York |
Abortion...Pro Life? Pro choice?Abortion...A strong, preventable word. Many many people, as we've seen here either believe in or do not believe in it. I,myself, believe that it should be remained legal. Why? It's such a cruel thing though. But listen, and listen carefully. The baby is not considered a fetus until the second trimester of pregnancy. The first trimester is just the multiplying of eggs and such. Abortion should only be done within the first trimester of pregnancy, after that you are taking a life. You may be saying that this girl is a freak but what happens if you are raped? Do you want to be carrying around a rapists' baby? What happens if you are 13 and drugged? What happens if you get beaten for getting a 99 on a test by your own parents and you will be killed if they find out you are pregnant? What happens then? You carry out your pregnancy living with the horrified memories of the rape in the park tunnel, or not knowing how you were impregnated but only that you were with a group of friends and then...or you get beaten to death because you had sex on accident. Abortion is a serious thing. Outlawed in some states...But why is it that the people who are PRO LIFE blow up abortion clinics? Killing more people...I don't get that. I believe in abortion but only to the end of the first trimester. Once the second one begins......But yes, abortion should remain legal. It will keep thousands of young women from killing themselves or from being kicked out onto the streets because their OWN parents are ashamed of them. Fight all you want people, the fact still remains that abortion is like the worst possible thing in a lot of people's minds...but would you really want to carry a person's child who raped you? Thank you....~*Kirah*~ [This message has been edited by WindSong (01-26-2003 01:38 PM).] |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Fence sitters are somewhat pro-choice by default. Being pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion -- it just means the government shouldn't decide -- More discussion on this in philosophy /pip/Forum8/HTML/000260.html or my own archive with links to more research http://www.geocities.com/nighthawke700/abortion.htm Technicality; a zygote/fetus/in-utero life is not a part of the host -- it has a specific unique DNA pattern (unless it is a clone) and behaves in the woman's body much as any parasite would. Hate is a dead thing. Who of you would be a tomb? -Kahlil Gibran [This message has been edited by Local Rebel (01-26-2003 02:20 PM).] |
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defenestrate Junior Member
since 2003-01-10
Posts 46nc, us |
i look at this in a strictly pragmatic way, as i feel that the purpose of law is to prevent harm/death wherever possible without trying to control things that it cannot. i don't think that morality has any place in law. for those who are going to spring the "so murder's not wrong? we should let it be legal" farce, murder IS a pragmatism issue-when someone is murdered, not only are someone's freedoms snatched from them, but society is left with one less person to help it be productive-extremely simple logic. my take on abortion is thus: womeon are going to have abortions, no matter who calls them murderers, no matter who would love to raise a little adopted baby, no matter the position of the moon, or whether the pope is staying nextdoor. they happen, and the reasons for the decision being either way are complex, and not easily quanitifiable. the difference between abortion being legal and illegal, therefore is (and this is IF you count abortion as murder) that legal, relatively "safe" clinically-performed abortions result in one death, whereas backalley abortions with poor tools and training can often result in two. not even getting into sterility from poor procedures, etc, and i don't even have to argue the pro-choice point. this is extremely simple. how much death is ok? i would say none. is less death better than more death? i'm going to stick my neck out and say, "yes, i would like to cut down on the amount of deaths". all else being equal, and life being considered a valuable thing, this is a simple answer. last i checked, at least here in the united states, church and state are supposed to be separate, and i would suspect that a poll of pro-lifers would reflect heavily that the vast majority consider this a moral issue, and one that comes from their religious beliefs. that should further bolster my point, unless you (general meaning, not a specific person) feel, as many seem to, that the constitution is a document to feign allegience to as long as it is sociologically expedient. my person opinion: abortion sucks, but so does having to raise a child as a teenager, or having to raise the child of a rape, or being expected to carry a child to term when there are very clear-cut health risks. i HAVE had personal experience in this area (many years ago, as a teen, and i am male, so i was the "lucky" party), and i wouldn't go back, even though the relationship i tried to continue that this was a part of may have been doomed from the moment it occurred. not that i had any say, being locked up some 500 miles away, but that is another story. i don't even know why i'm volunteering personal information about this, aside from the idea that if i'm going to state an opinion, it couldn't hurt to provide a little context regarding my worldview. feel free to ignore this part and stick to the meat of my point: legal abortion is a pragmatic choice in a society that is too complicated to easily be eased with wise words of any kind. |
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