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Immoral Love?
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Immoral Love? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738
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"She" is 37. "He" is 18. And, there are extenuating circumstances. "His" mother is "Her" former best friend. They were as close as sisters for over a decade, and quite often watched each others children. And? Until they became lovers, "He" referred to "Her" as "aunt." They are now openly a couple, and quite insistant that they have found true love. And? I am friends with ALL of them...Kind of a tricky situation over here...Oh, yes. I forgot to mention, that "she" is also married, and her husband knows about this situation and doesn't seem to mind. Her kids, are a bit confused however, as they grew up, with him being treated as "one of the kids," sitting elbow-to-elbow at the supper table, etc... sigh... Opinions, please? |
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bsquirrel
since 2000-01-03
Posts 7855 |
It sounds like the two perfect ages for a future meltdown and destruction of all they had as friends. All I can think about is the Lovers. And maybe the Tower? (sheesh I really need to stop writing poetry for a while -- heh heh) Good luck, to whoever you two are!  Mikey [This message has been edited by bsquirrel (09-10-2002 03:30 PM).] |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Both are legally adults right? And as such, they have the right to love each other. Immoral? In the eyes of some perhaps. But in this world, when you find live (and it's not hurtful to anyone) isn't that a GOOD thing? Are you saying that I can't find love with someone 20 years MY junior? Geez..I've always liked my men younger than I...they have more spirit! |
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Martie
Moderator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-09-21
Posts 28049California |
In my opinion, love cannot be immoral! Could go on about what is, but I won't here. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
heck no - i hope i can find an 18 year old hottie when i'm 37!!!   |
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catalinamoon
since 2000-06-03
Posts 9543The Shores of Alone |
I don't think it's immoral, but it sure is a mess! Love, if it is real, finds a way. Then again, she might just be infatuated with a young man, and men, well they alays fall for the one who gives them what they haven't had a lot of before .Sandra |
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Kielo Senior Member
since 2002-02-11
Posts 1109 |
I'm going to have to disagree with most of the people here. I think if this woman has established a relationship as an aunt, as a parent figure, then it probably is wrong. I also think that the age difference matters, because she will be so much more mature than him, and they are at different stages in their life, which causes complications... believe me, I know. Finally, if none of this seems significant enough to stop the relationship, whatever it may be, something like that can ruin friendships and marriages. It may not have yet, but that doesn't mean it won't happen. I know its tempting to simply say "Oh, well, in our society we believe in freedom, so you can do anything you want," but I believe that there are rules in life, and I believe that sometimes some things are wrong. I believe that if a situation can harm others, it should be avoided. Allow me to repeat, these are only my beliefs. Please do not be offended if I have stated them rather emphatically... Kielo |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Kielo? not offended at all...in fact, those are my very qualms...it seems so incenstuous...and the WOMAN is married, and the fact that she has her husbands consent, is my subtle way of hinting at darkly what cannot be said openly. I am all for LOVE--but this--hmmm...I have sat with the boy's mother while she cried--she of course, wanted her son to fall in love with someone appropriate to his age and interests (although I did not say so, I remember 18 year old boys..grin, and that IS his interest) I am completely torn here. And this couple visits with me because I am one of the few that does not express disgust when they are openly affectionate with each other. Conversely, I did ask the woman involved how she would feel if one of her ex husband's friends became lovers with her 17 year old daughter. (Her answer? She hoped he would enjoy it, for the moment would be brief and he would at least die with a happy memory!) and her rationale was simply "but it's DIFFERENT with us..." And the mother feels that her son is tossing his young years away, and his new girlfriend, is quite possessive of him, and jealous naturally of the younger girls who express interest in him. (a rather humorous scenario was when she answered the door at his apartment to find a fetching young girl there, asking , "Is your son at home?"  So...I dunno...I am just jumping back and forth on this one emotionally? and had taken the "mind yer own business" stance, but they are ALL my friends, and want to talk to ME about it...GROAN. [This message has been edited by serenity blaze (09-12-2002 01:19 PM).] |
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Kielo Senior Member
since 2002-02-11
Posts 1109 |
Wow... I really don't know what to say. I think that our society can believe in freedom all it wants, but there have to be rules for us to remain human. If we can walk around falling in love with anyone we want, and no one cares, not even the previous lover of the person we are supposedly in love with... (did that makes sense?) then we'll be as good as animals. Woo hoo, lets run around and get laid! That would be good for the over-population problem. But I forgot. Everyone would be too busy to care. Ok, so maybe I'm exaggerating a little. A little. Serenity, you have my sympathy, but being only 15, I don't know how reliable my advice is... I would suggest picking a side, because even if it ruins the friendship, at least you don't have to worry about whether or not you're on a side, or being stuck in the middle. At the same time, if it would be easier for you personally to stick in the middle until the whole thing goes away, if it ever does, then do that. It really depends, person to person. So honestly? I am as confused as I've ever been on what to say. I sincerely hope you manage to figure something out. Kielo |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
There is a world of difference between falling in love and just getting laid! |
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Kielo Senior Member
since 2002-02-11
Posts 1109 |
I know, but that difference can erode, over time. Very like the theory of evolution, actually. Look how rules have changed, even in the last century. Just my own opinion. Kielo |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
quote:...not when you're 18 sharon. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Thank you Christopher...my point exactly. again, I told my friend, "you are going to hurt this boy..." and yes, I say boy, and I CAN, because I know him. And she said, I will be the one left behind--this time? I'm the fool..." so...dunno... |
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Kielo Senior Member
since 2002-02-11
Posts 1109 |
I was talking to Titus today, and he said the following: "To me, love has almost nothing to do with sexuality... or, sex, I should put it more correctly. Love is... much, much more. Love isn't neccessarily a feeling, it's an action, a self-sacrificial looking out for the other, no matter what. Sex, and the joys of that, are meant as a blessing of the covenant of marraige, that's how God designed it. It's not the reason for love, or the birth of it." I liked it, I thought it was relevant, so I got his permission to quote him, and posted it. Kielo [This message has been edited by Kielo (09-13-2002 02:03 AM).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
 er...TITUS? just how what IS your age???  |
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Kielo Senior Member
since 2002-02-11
Posts 1109 |
What? My age, or Titus' age? I'm 15. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
smiling...both of you show wisdom, my new friends... I thank you. |
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Kielo Senior Member
since 2002-02-11
Posts 1109 |
Titus... PoetryIsLife... You know Titus, right? *is worried* Seriously... how can you not know Titus? [This message has been edited by Kielo (09-13-2002 02:23 AM).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
not to worry...if to read his poetry is to know him, then I have... impressive, too! |
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Kielo Senior Member
since 2002-02-11
Posts 1109 |
*nods* Ok. I meant know of him, I guess. It was just foreign to me that someone on this site could not know who Titus is |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
If it is really love, how can it be immoral? But it really just sounds like a lusty sexual escapade to me, one that appears to be hurting most everyone else. Bad idea, mommy. Really, really bad idea. But in fact, I like younger men. Is it immoral for someone over 50 (yikes!) to have an affair with someone under 30? |
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Kielo Senior Member
since 2002-02-11
Posts 1109 |
I think any affair is immoral, no matter what anyone else thinks of it. The point of marriage is to attach yourself to one person for life. Of course, take into consideration that I'm only 15, so most of my ideas are idealistic. (That's the word I wanted, right?) |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hello all, I'm gonna have to side with Martie, love isn't immoral, in fact I'd say that immoral love is an oxymoron. If what to people are doing is immoral that it ain't love but is probably a close relative like lust or greed. I also think that even when two people are in love that even though their love is not immoral, the relationship may be immoral or unethical. I don't think I would date one of my mother's friends even if I was in love, not because of an age difference, I have no quams whatsoever about that, but rather because I think it would bother my mother deeply. The love I would have wouldn't be immoral but the relationship could probably be labelled as unethical. Now look at the story Lolita...I forget the character's names but the older guy might have been in love with her but there is a case where I think the relationship would be immoral. Why, because a relationship usually deals with more than just love but sex as well...which can often be an extention of love but not necessarily always the case. It may not be immoral to love a parent's best friend, but it may be unethical to sleep with them. It may not be immoral to love a 16 year old, but it is most likely immoral to sleep with them. Then you get into what type of love, is there more than one kind of love or just more than one way to express it? You can love your parents when you're 18 and they're 45. Is that immoral, no of course not, but it would be to have sex with your parents...but I think its safe to say the vast majority of 18 yr olds don't want to sleep with their parents. If this is true than I think its somewhat accurate to say that a person of the age of 18 can love and does know love without it actually having to equate to a sexual thing. A really good book to read on the subject that covers a lot of different points of view on love is "The Synposium"...I think it was Aristotle's interpretation of a Plato's discussion with some peers...I could be wrong, been a while since I read it but I'm pretty sure that was the book. Chris: "There is a world of difference between falling in love and just getting laid! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...not when you're 18 sharon." Okay, I'll bite, if not at 18 then when can one fall in love without it just being getting laid? 19? 20? 21? Does that just apply to guys or does it include women as well? Just thought I'd throw that out in the open. Mikey: "It sounds like the two perfect ages for a future meltdown and destruction of all they had as friends." I can't tell if you're describing that particular relationship or all of them in general Keilo: "I think any affair is immoral, no matter what anyone else thinks of it. The point of marriage is to attach yourself to one person for life." I think the point of marriage differs quite a bit. Some marry for love, some for sex, some money, greed and so on. Marriage, unfotunately, isn't always about love. Also, is it really an affair if the husband is consenting? What about in a situation where a spouse is "trapped" in an abusive relationship...would it be immoral to have an affair then? I dunno, just something to think about. I guess that's about all I can offer to this discussion, thanks everyone, Trevor [This message has been edited by Trevor (09-13-2002 02:48 AM).] |
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Kielo Senior Member
since 2002-02-11
Posts 1109 |
Trevor, I have only one major problem with what you said. There is really no comparison between sleeping with your parents, and the situation serenity described. There are several different kinds of love. I love my parents, but when I'm married, the love I have for my husband will be a very different kind of love. Will it still be love? Yes. I love my friends. Is that the same love I have for my parents? No. Is it still love? Yes. What Serenity has described is two people who say they love each other in the manner of husband and wife, or whatever it is called now. I think that loving someone in that way invariably leads to lust, and lust is not far from sleeping with them anyway. Just because you love them but don't sleep with them doesn't mean you don't fantasize. I'm not saying all people do, but I'm willing to bet most do, if not everyone. Just because they don't marry for love doesn't make it right. And yes, I do believe it is still wrong if the husband is consenting. A commitment is a commitment. If the two don't love each other, they shouldn't have married in the first place. Raising the point of an abusive relationship is interesting. I would say that an affair is still wrong, but divorce is not. Again, just all my own opinion. [This message has been edited by Kielo (09-13-2002 02:56 AM).] |
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Larry C
since 2001-09-10
Posts 10286United States |
Personally if morality is a matter of opinion and what feels good then it's no wonder the world is in trouble. I'll settle for God's guidelines as my moral compass. Which leaves this whole thing pretty messy, as if that weren't obvious. If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane, I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Okay, I'll bite, if not at 18 then when can one fall in love without it just being getting laid? 19? 20? 21? Does that just apply to guys or does it include women as well? Just thought I'd throw that out in the open. um...just to throw things out in the open? It applies to women too. |
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Kielo Senior Member
since 2002-02-11
Posts 1109 |
*grins* You are one cool woman... for a fogey... hehe... Just kidding. I think... Being 15, and knowing several 18 year olds, I really doubt that most of them are mature enough to take a relationship seriously. [This message has been edited by Kielo (09-13-2002 03:07 AM).] |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hello, Keilo: "Being 15, and knowing several 18 year olds, I really doubt that most of them are mature enough to take a relationship seriously." Several 18 yr olds, ah heck, that only leaves the other 50 000 000, 18 year olds unaccountanted for Actually I do agree with your generalization although I'm not a big fan of generalizing. I too think a large portion of 18 year olds probably have difficulty sustaining a healthy, loving relationship but I'm sure there are some who can and do. Maybe for the situation that Serenity described, it's possible that the particular 18 yr old is mature enough to handle the relationship...but I dunno, never met him.Just a thunk or two, Trevor |
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Kielo Senior Member
since 2002-02-11
Posts 1109 |
Yah, you know, as soon as you pointed that out, I realized what I'd done... *blush* Oh well. See, I proved my point! We don't think about things thoroughly before getting involved, and we aren't experienced enough in life to know what is and what isn't. Ok, now I just confused myself, because halfway through my sentence I forgot what I was saying... Stupid ADHD... *mutters* |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
actually, i think it would apply MORE to women than to guys. 18 year old guys are [generally, of course there are exceptions] little more than sex machines. this doesn't mean they can't have personality, feelings, interests, etc., but there you have it - sex baby, sex. women, on the other hand, are a little more likely to be less focused on sex than on the relationship at that age. often times, i think it's the relationship more than the feelings that are important for women of this age. emotions certainly play a big portion in it, i'm sure - but how many 18 (and younger even) year old girls did you know who wanted to die, because they'd just lost the only guy they'd ever love in their life... after going out with him for two weeks? this may be typecasting a bit, but i don't think that makes it far off the mark. i don't claim to be mr. answer or anything, nor am i old and wise. but i can see patterns, in memory, and even here in the forums. at 18, your emotions are out of whack, way out of whack. blame it on hormones, social pressure, impending responsibility of having to go out in the 'real world' and choose a life for yourself (whoever in the world decided 18 was the age someone becomes an "adult?" bad call in my op.), whatever. you're on a roller coaster at 18, and deciding that something is love and not lust is probably a bit unrealistic. (then again, who ever called teens "realistic???") as to the next part of the question: where do you draw the line? this probably answers the above question about determining the age of adulthood - there is no hard and fast line one can draw. some people are fairly mature at 18. but not as mature as they'll be at 25, 30, 35, etc. in the same hand, you can find someone who's 25 and is as emotionally mature as someone who's 30. i think a lot of that depends on experience... hell, all of it may depend on experience. i don't feel i gained the emotional maturity to really decide on "love" until i was about... 27 or so... and truthfully, a lot of times i still wonder. my idea of what love really is changes all the time... not necessarily in large degrees, but it's there. i do know that it's not based on sex anymore (though that still plays a large part in intimate relationships). i've been married, had four live-in girlfriends (one was my ex wife), and literally countless other relationships of varying degrees of "depth." of course, it's quite possible i was just slow in the learning... but really, i think it just took that evolution of people and interactions to start whetting down the stone until it resembeled something along the lines of what my idea of "love" would end up being. ah well, i'm talking a lot, and not all that sure i'm saying much. i have a strong opinion on this, one that comes from my gut telling me that the worst mistake someone under 25 (that's when i started noticing some true emotional growth in myself, though far from complete) to decide on anything that 'sticks' them in something for the rest of their life. love often leads that direction. i don't think it should have to, but that just seems to be the common goal, one i hope we as a society can get away from as time progresses. personally though, i think an 18 year old boy isn't necessarily thinking that way, lol. it is possible of course, but you know what? there's a lot to be learned by having our feelings hurt as well... ok, i'll shut up now. |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hello, Chris: Is love and sex the same thing at any age? If so then why can one have sex without being in love or love without having sex? I'm gonna contend that people who think they are in love because they want to or enjoy having sex with someone are confused about which emotions they are feeling. I love the women whom I loved the exact same way that I love my parents...however, I don't lust after my parents. Like in every relationship there are a multitude of emotions other than love involved. Maybe that's where experience comes into play, the more experience we have the easier we are able to seperate different feelings from one another whereas when we first come into contact with these feelings they are usually all crammed together. And they're so new that we don't know what they are or what to do with them. The exact same things I want for a wife I would want for my parents. Even sexually, ie. I would want my wife to be sexually satisfied just as I hope my parents are sexually satisfied because I care for their happiness. However, and its a big however, I don't lust after my parents so I wouldn't consider or ever try to fullfill that need for them,...thank Christ! I would want to care for both a wife and my parents...provide, protect, see happy, make laugh and so on all out of love. I think the confusion begins when we start treating lust, (or any other seperate emotional entity), as a part of love...Its not love that would make me want to sleep with a wife but lust and attraction, the same reason I would want to have sex with any woman...however, it would be love that would make me want her to be sexually satisfied....and lust to satisfy my sexual needs....and greed and envy for wanting it to only ever be me satisfying her sexual needs. All different but all in use at the same time, in the same relationship. Now I guess sex can be an expression of love but I think that might be summed up as love motivating or influencing lust and attraction, rather than sex for the sake of love, which makes about as much sense as, love for the sake of sex. Now these are all guesses of course, I haven't a clue either? I don't know if I'm even hitting the dart board but I did hear a "kathunk!" and someone scream In Serenty's case, I wouldn't know what these two are feeling, only they can figure that out, but it is interesting to talk about them ."ah well, i'm talking a lot, and not all that sure i'm saying much. i have a strong opinion on this, one that comes from my gut telling me that the worst mistake someone under 25 (that's when i started noticing some true emotional growth in myself, though far from complete) to decide on anything that 'sticks' them in something for the rest of their life. love often leads that direction." Yeah, I know, it always bugs me too, hearing about people taking a chance on love, those cowards - especially when it causes them to be stuck in a loving relationship for the rest of their life. Bastards!..and that was envy Thanks Chris, as usual, an interesting discussion, Trevor PS. Is it just me or does it seem everything at PIP seems to turn into a Philosophical debate when you're around, you're one of those proverbial fecal disturbers aren't you ...ahhh, but I wouldn't want it any other way. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
But it DOES raise some interesting questions, T. And? I'm not sure if it's the age difference as much as it is such a familial thing. There is more than just ONE kid involved here...there are hers, who viewed him as a sibling, and his brothers, who still perceive her as aunt. The older brother will no longer participate in the family gatherings that include HER (out of loyalty to his mother)...which of course includes her children's birthday parties, etc. (I'm saying children but now that I'm thinking they are all in their teens, though the younger ones just barely.) And yes, this IS a mess...and I think that had my friend began a liason with some OTHER 18-year old, I could have at least had more of an open mind about it. But seeing all the pain this is causing this once very close circle of friends, makes me pose the question, even to myself--IS "LOVE" a loophole for doing whatever or whomever you desire? I recall someone else pointing out to ME, that my actions could cause pain to MY children--and I was in LOVE (pouting now)Why was that different? I don't recall packing my bags, and saying with a casual, carefree flip of my hair, saying, "SORRY KIDS. MOM'S IN LOVE. Too bad for YOU." Then what? "oh yeah...tell your Dad, I may be back if and when I decide I'm not in love anymore." I'm sorry...I understand love, and I understand sexual attraction, (boy do I! ) but aren't there certain situations where sometimes you have to tell yourself, "Tsk...it's tough, but nope, you can't do that?" Because if there is not, I have really screwed up big time...  |
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bsquirrel
since 2000-01-03
Posts 7855 |
I was thinking of this one in particular, Trev or. Many old/young relationships can work out. But the idea of this being family to lovers ... it's just got this imbued element of chaos that, frankly, isn't good for any relationship. It sounds more like they're seeking the heavenly highs and hellish lows of "taboo" love, rather than real love. Of course, not knowing these people, I cannot make any real guesses or points on this. I'm just going by my gut, here. Mikey |
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bsquirrel
since 2000-01-03
Posts 7855 |
Love is a mixture of many things. Must it be spiritual and not of the body? It's both. And neither. And beyond. And below. And all. |
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