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Love..what is it really?
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Love..what is it really? |
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catalinamoon
since 2000-06-03
Posts 9543The Shores of Alone 
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Just feeling philosophical..what does it really mean to you. And I mean the man/woman love, not the parent child love which is as or more strong, but easier to understand. And can you have more than one true love? And what is the difference between true love and an untrue love.. And can you make yourself love someone that you "should" love, if you try hard enough? Oh never mind, I think I need some wine. PS How long can you go without "intimacy" and LIVE anyway? [This message has been edited by catalinamoon (06-28-2002 09:49 PM).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Yanno? San? How would one know...having heard LIES? damn..it IS a dark and dreary dawn....smile? |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
You can go a long time without intimacy - but I'm not sure if it's called 'living'. As for me, I've been alone for a long time. I guess I have high standards, I don't want just anyone - I want someone who will make me feel like I'm the best thing that ever happened to him...as I would make him feel. Finding someone is the hardest part. Seems the good ones are afraid to speak up and the bad ones speak up far too easily. I have been burned and don't trust most of what a man says to me. It's sad but that's the way it is. There is someone out there I could make very happy - but I'm afraid to speak up for fear of being rejected. Again? That's sad isn't it? Sigh. I don't think there is a pat answer. We all have to do what we feel is best for us. Settling for a friendship instead of a passionate relationship is one way to have someone in your life. I look forward to reading the replies to this. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
K...I'm back... I have true love with one young man...we call him "Jethro" because he eats so much...he is totally "goth" at age 12--more computer literate than most--and generous enough to give his parents lessons! He now stands two inches over me and I am in awe. All I have to do is look at him, and I think, "Life is GOOD." He cuts grass, without complaint, and loves a good rub on the head (tho he'd deny that) and watches documentaries with me. WITH INTEREST.  and then? there is HER...smile...I have to go looking for her. She hides in her room, and I follow trails of paper to find her sometimes...she is asleep, her pajamas are full of ink spots, and I have to gently take the pens from fingers. All blonde hair (turning dark--like mine--grin) and blue eyes...one with a splash of brown--(LIKE SHARON'S---how'd dat happen?) and she is funny, and insightful...and makes wry commentary on society without even knowing... GAWD SHE'S GORGEOUS!!! And yep..there's men...lovely, lovely men...strong-armed but caring...(with those nice thigh muscles known mostly to base runners) and gentle laughs with inquisitive eyes that make me ask more of myself...ooooh..I love that. *youch* and women? so lovely? Y'wanna paint them...or at least take a picture, so that perfection could last a lifetime. Gentle, sweet, caring, sardonic and sometimes brutal with honesty...women...are our mirrors. And when we see ourselves through their smiles? WE LEARN TO DANCE. Babies in innocence...enchanting, with those eyes that follow..and the loyalty of a great dog...and the yearning of a cat on leg... Old folks...holding their legacy on lap...frantic grandchildren--and they tolerate the bruises of restless feet--with JOY--knowing they are kicked by LIFE. and tears of wishing, all alone. It's all love. It's just a palette of LIFE. it's love mizz sandra...  |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Oh, and in answer to your "discreet" question at the end? hmmm... Okay, but don't tell anyone, but the boyfriend has an agreement with the neighbors and the U.N. It's all official with a raised seal and everything! It states, (in part) : "and I, understanding the specific needs of said woman (me) do hereby agree to undertake and overtake all responsibility of the servicing of said woman--with the understanding that malfeasance on my part might well disrupt World Peace and totally annoy my neighbors. I commit to this objective in full knowledge of the danger of this mission, understanding the full ramifications (what a woid  ) and all implications of the responsibilities thereof.My next of kin is duly listed in the codicile."  |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
I think Sandra touched on my feelings when she tried to exclude familial love, and Karen more so when she insisted on including it. Mankind has spent thousands of years, I think, trying to separate the inseparable. The Greeks had different words for what they felt were three kinds love. Eros is the intense, passionate, sexual feelings we normally associate with romance. Philia is the love of good friends, perhaps best explained in Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics. Agape is typically described as "unconditional love," and is often associated with its use in the New Testament to describe God's love for humanity, though I suspect the original Greek meaning was a little less unconditional and a bit more encompassing. We have the love between husband and wife, the love between parent and child, the love between siblings, the love between close friends, the love between comrades (soldiers or others who have shared an important life experience), the love for symbolic figures of virtue (your rabbi, preacher, or maybe JFK), the love for neighbors or countrymen or alumni, and of course, our love for God. So many kinds of love. And yet, I think it's clear that each overlaps many others, often blending from one to the other. Comrades build a common experience into a deep friendship that eventually blossoms into love. Did they stop being comrades? Friends? Is one kind of love stronger than another? Longer lasting? More desirable? I think we love in different ways, to different degrees, and for many, many different reasons. But I think love is love. It's not like a salad where you can pick out the various ingredients, but rather like a broth where the blend defines the taste and the ingredients are inseparable. Relationships, I think, suffer when they become salads. Eros alone makes a lousy romaine, and Philia is a pretty sad slice of tomato. Even doused generously with an agape dressing, the salad is often doomed. Why? Because if the eros is removed, you get a bowl of soggy tomatoes, or if the philia is lost, boredom soon takes its place. Forget the agape and everything is dry and tasteless. Individual ingredients, I think, inevitably lead only to hunger. Give me a hearty, hot soup any day. But, uh, not too hot. A good relationship, I think, includes sex, but it can't be based on sex. Certainly not wholly (which I suspect we all agree), but I think not even initially in most instances. Love is blind because our hormones blatantly lie to us, and if a relationship starts with lust and ends up with more, we just plain got lucky. Good cooks know that you don't add soup ingredients to boiling water. Mix first, heat later, and the flavor is trapped in the soup rather than boiled away in the rapidly escaping vapors. You need the heat. You need the passion. But not too soon. You might find chunks in a good soup, you might even be able to identify those chunks, but their flavor can't possibly be removed because it has been cooked into the mix and become a part of the whole. A lasting relationship needs passion, it needs friendship, it needs the camaraderie that comes only through time and from sharing life, it very much needs the respect we glean as virtue (a little love blindness can be a good thing, too), and I think it even needs familial love, that bonding between parent and child, between siblings, that sense of belonging that IS and can never be arbitrarily removed. But these things aren't separate in a good soup, and sex can as often erupt in friendly laughter as in passion, and can end with intimate hugs instead of the sound of snoring. With each spoonful of soup, you can never be quite sure which flavor will surface, but you can be sure none will dominate. Yes, I believe you can have "more than one true love." But you can ultimately give your loyalty to only one, a decision that should be made with both head and heart. And, it should be irrevocable, lest the loyalty be conditional and the trust destroyed. You can love more than one. But rarely for long. Finally (I know, I know!), amidst the many kinds of love, there's one upon which all others depend. I believe that your "need" for another can approach infinity, but you can never love someone any more than you love yourself. Self-love defines the shape and breadth and depth of the human heart, stretching it so that others may find their place within. Paradoxically, true self-love removes that relentless need for another. And perhaps only then can love really grow beyond mere need. |
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catalinamoon
since 2000-06-03
Posts 9543The Shores of Alone |
Thanks for those thoughtful comments, Ron, Karen and Sharon. I wish I could resolve some of this in my own head. Sandra |
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Janet Marie Member Laureate
since 2000-01-22
Posts 18554 |
quote: and that will be the coolest and the most wisdom filled metaphor anyone will read today!! quote: If we all were this emotionally healthy... we would all be this wise...and Im thinking there would be a whole lot more love poetry in this place. ~~ KA? quote: yer so kewl  Sharon said: quote: so that was you in me mirror [This message has been edited by Janet Marie (06-29-2002 05:48 PM).] |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Be careful Ron, your recipe for soup sounds enticing - do you cater?  Ok..I thought about this and the soup analogy is right on...I don't use a recipe for soup - I just make it. And Ron is right..the ingredients blend together to make something wonderful. No one flavor overshadows the other. Soup, like love, has been known to give comfort - it's something good for a cold day (as is love). I guess that's why Campbell's slogan is " M M Good!" [This message has been edited by Poet deVine (06-29-2002 07:52 PM).] |
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Skyfire
since 2000-12-27
Posts 3381Riding |
I've found in the past few months, that loving myself is the most rewarding love that I can recieve. Yes, Andrew's love means the world to me, but if it came right down to it, I could live without him if I absolutely had to. I could live without his love. It would tear a part of me out, but I could do it. I couldn't live without my own love though. I know from experience, that if I don't love myself, I'm merely existing. Existing isn't fun. Since I've began to love myself, life has gotten... exciting again. But I no longer need the love of another person to survive. It's just an added bonus |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Relationships, I think, suffer when they become salads. Eros alone makes a lousy romaine, and Philia is a pretty sad slice of tomato. Even doused generously with an agape dressing, the salad is often doomed. Why? Because if the eros is removed, you get a bowl of soggy tomatoes, or if the philia is lost, boredom soon takes its place. Forget the agape and everything is dry and tasteless. Individual ingredients, I think, inevitably lead only to hunger. Give me a hearty, hot soup any day. and hey...not discounting the rest? but DAMN MAN? WHAT ARE YA TRYING TO DO TO ME? yowsers...sighs..and love the agape, baby! |
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Janet Marie Member Laureate
since 2000-01-22
Posts 18554 |
I was thinking about this thread...and discussing it with a couple Passions friends...and Sandra's question of "true love" keeps coming back around. Im not even sure why, but I keep trying to figure it out in my own mind, like what Sandra was saying. SO often I am given such clarity and advice but dont always know how to apply it to my own life. I really think the whole premise of "true love" has been so over done that its become a cliche or an unobtainable fantasy the no one can live up to. I think its more about "healthy love" based on mutual attractions, interests, goals. Based on a certain chemistry and that draws us to someone and then as we begin getting to know the other person..it will become based on shared trust & respect. That comes with time...commitment of time & effort. Not some overnight "love at first sight." I was also thinking about Sandra's question of: "Can you make yourself love someone that you "should" love, if you try hard enough? I dont know if its a matter of "should" and I dont think we should "make" ourselves love someone...I think that should be a natural progression...if you have to "try" so hard...something must be missing...but I think you were asking more along the lines of, there is someone who cares for you, who treats you well and you wonder why you dont feel the same way back. Sometimes persistence pays off....I've known friends to take years to realize there was more there. But I think Ron nailed it when he says it has to be about something more than "need" that's unhealthy love--when we love with a smothering desperation and end up giving too much of ourselves away in trying to hold on to that kind of relationship. Loneliness makes us weak, it makes us settle for less and do things that we end up hurting ourselves. I'm sorry to say I dont know too many "perfect, happy ever after" couples, but the few ones I know to be healthy strong marriages/unions....are ones that both of the people were strong, confident and driven people as individuals...they found common goals with each other and wanted to build on that...neither of them were needy and lost in the other person. They respect the other for that. They inspire each other that way. There is certain something, a spark that keeps that going... At 72 years old...and married for over 50 years, my grandfather still called grandma "baby," still pulled out her chair, brought her flowers weekly and cooked her candle lit dinners. She still lit up when he walked in the room and laughed at all his old jokes like it was the first time she'd heard them. We used to walk in on them smooching in the kitchen over morning coffee. When asked the "secret" to their happiness, Grandpa always said, "I treat her the way I want to be treated back, everything else is the cherry on top." He also used to make the most amazing Vegetable Beef Soup, people would buy it by the gallons in our town. [This message has been edited by Janet Marie (06-30-2002 02:31 PM).] |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
I second what Janet said. And your grandparents marriage sounds ideal! |
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