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Water
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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Water |
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Kamala Member
since 2003-04-17
Posts 59CA, USA |
Water ----- Woman is water, naturally taking her shape from where she's poured. Sometimes she courses canyon bottoms babbling incomprehensibly protests too quiet to hear before she throws herself over rocks, thrashes in rapids. At times, perhaps, she rains, beating herself hard against unforgiving ground; but mostly she rolls in and out of herself, forever casting waves in a fruitless reach for the man in the moon crashing on cold sands. Eventually, she ebbs, retreats to her dark salty depths; she leaves meek pools standing silent, reflectionless, evaporating. ----------------------------------------------- Please feel free to hack me to bits. Any and all comments on word choice, alternative phrasing, imagery, theme, punctuation, etc... ANYTHING is welcome. I really like in-depth, meaty critique, even if it pisses me off initially. Thanks, Kamala "At times, indeed, almost ridiculous-- |
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| © Copyright 2003 Judith Quinones - All Rights Reserved | |||
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Seth Member
since 2003-04-13
Posts 74Arizona |
Very eastern. I like it a lot. Has the feel of water and body and spirit proverbs. Thanks for posting this. Seth |
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Seth Member
since 2003-04-13
Posts 74Arizona |
Oh, and it has my vote. Seth |
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QjQ Member Elite
since 2003-04-18
Posts 3756U.S.A. |
interesting and holds interest |
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IcyFlamez89 Member
since 2003-02-14
Posts 292Jersey City NJ |
Water has always been my favorite element (Water and Night) and you portrayed her beautifuly. So of course you have my vote. [This message has been edited by IcyFlamez89 (04-22-2003 08:13 PM).] |
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ScarletOath New Member
since 2003-04-23
Posts 5Memphis,TN |
Very interesting. I love the smoothness by which it flows. And I agree..so Eastern  |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Kamala - just letting you know I'll be back to this to critique it soon...  K |
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Kamala Member
since 2003-04-17
Posts 59CA, USA |
I wanted to thank you all for your supportive comments, but I also feel it necessary to add some explanation here -- and you all can let me know what you think. This poem is actually part of a 5-poem set (one poem for each element), in which I liken some aspect of women (women's characters, the way they live their lives, etc.) to each of the elements in turn. So, this poem isn't really supposed to be about water... but more about women. I didn't want to explain that ahead of time because I wanted to see if the subtext would be clear. Is there something I could/should do to highlight that more in the text? What do you all think of the idea? Any comments, critiques, suggestions are appreciated. Thanks, Kamala |
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Kamala Member
since 2003-04-17
Posts 59CA, USA |
By the way, Severn -- I very much look forward to your critique as I have enjoyed your critiques of others. |
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Seth Member
since 2003-04-13
Posts 74Arizona |
I think its very clear, any more clues would be overkill in my opinion. I dig it just the way it is. Here is that proverb I was telling you about. You embrace some form, saying "I am this." By God, you are not this or that or the other...Like water in a jar and river are in essence the same, you and spirit are the same. Hope you like it as much as I do. Seth [This message has been edited by Seth (04-25-2003 12:18 AM).] |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Hi Kamala - by the way, that's an interesting choice of username (assuming your real name is Judith?) as my real name is Kamla - which is of course derived from Kamala...lol... Your poem, to me, is one of those that hugs the line of potential. I've read your later comment that this is one piece of a set. While set pieces are interesting there is always the danger of forcing a poem to fit the image. I find that in 'Water' there is a mix of cliche and originality that doesn't mesh - often expressed through jumbled technique. My major problem is that the entire poem is an extended metaphor. Unfortunately, extended metaphor is a pet hate of mine. (One of many  ) Why exactly might become clear as I blather on...So...that said...I'm going through verse by verse.. quote: An assumption: I imagine that all of your poems start something like 'woman is water', 'woman is fire' etc. If that is the case I'd recommend varying the intros. I feel that a key to set pieces is ensuring originality through similarity. Hey, I could be wrong... I think that 'woman is water' is simply too harsh, and unnecessary. It's like you have said 'this is what I am going to talk about. I am going to explain exactly how woman is water.' If you have this as part of a set it is obvious from the title 'water' that you are depicting woman through water. Then there is the second line 'naturally taking her shape from where she's poured'. An image I rather like. Except I don't like how you've said it. Another pet hate of mine: adverbs. Ly words. In poetry they're weak 99% of the time. 'Naturally' is no exception. This image of yours deserves strength - in terms of sound, presentation and image. Woman takes shape from where she's poured. Stronger. To the point. Isn't over-obvious. Something to think about at any rate. That's just an example of what minor changes could do while keeping your image intact. quote: Canyon bottoms? No no no no please no. I hope I don't need to explain why this just doesn't work. (I have an impossible image of a canyon with a huge butt...hmm...) Babbling incomprehensively? Oh dear...woman isn't looking too sure of herself. In fact, woman seems incapable of speech (and if I'm any example to go by...heh). I now see a woman with a large butt, muttering away...not particularly flattering. Not that woman is always sure of herself I know. I do believe though that you could describe uncertainty/loss/fear/frustration and whatever else you see in this with a little more flair. If you were to keep canyon bottoms and babbling incomprehensively in there you'll find you also have an alliteration problem. Alliteration is explained to us in school when we're around 13 as a great poetic technique. That's crap. It is not a great poetic technique at all - at least, not most of the time it's employed. All it does is run syllables together and make a pretense at flow. Blah. The best freeverse poems in my experience almost always have an absence of alliteration. (Assonance works better, but still needs to be watched). As a companion to the alliteration you're also heavy on your sibilance. And again it doesn't work here. The verse is really a blob of words, and sounds. In terms of the general image of this section: You have water alternately babbling, and then going quietly (another unnecessary adverb) through a canyon, until it reaches the rapids. You need to ask yourself - is this the most appropriate image for your metaphor? And if you think that it is - how can you improve it? Or is it a forced image that borders on cliche? How else could you depict a woman's almost cyclic emotions, while staying true to your metaphor of water? I actually think that the image of a canyon could be written with originality - but that the course you have described...hurrying, going slow, crashing into rapids is cliched. Perhaps you could work on something that shakes that cliche a little. quote: Hm. Problems in this: Unnecessary words. Cliched image. An image that makes me ask - What the hell is this doing here? More cliches. Firstly - what's up with that 'At times, perhaps'? Why is that there? To me, that sounds like you were in that drifty-dreamy poetic place and it just flowed, with a nice aura of poetic ambivalence. It's weak. What happens if she doesn't rain at times? Pretty pointless then really. The image of rain. Really, it's a cliche. The most cliched images of watery metaphor - the sea, rivers and rain. I'm particularly guilty of writing about the sea in a metaphoric sense. (Hell, I even wrote a poem years ago about how the rain made my hair feel like spaghetti ~cringe~ ). Sometimes, cliched images - not necessarily the words themselves - can be done well. However, I'm not sure that your image succeeds. I ask - why is the ground unforgiving exactly? That's just been inserted in there hasn't it? With little thought. The man on the moon? There are finer - and less cliched - ways you can describe a fruitless reach for something. Now, as to the rolls in and out of herself. Firstly, in this verse, she is the rain and then she becomes a wave - crashing (oldest wave cliche there is I think) no less? I think you should stick to one thing here... And I also feel you could think about committing this verse to a focus on the rolling in and out of herself - that's quite a fantastic image. Only with less of an obvious focus on the fact that she is a wave. Just because your poem focuses on woman as water doesn't mean you have to go to great lengths to SHOW that is what you are doing. quote: There are two images in this I like: meek pools and reflectionless. In this verse you have done little more than show the action of a wave in retreat. You have SHOWN woman as water (perhaps my problem with extended metaphor is becoming clearer). Ultimately, Kamala, I think that to pull your poem out of the mundanity of an extended metaphor that shows too much and transform it into an original work you need to narrow your choice of image, and reshape it around those select images. I can see this becoming more a piece about fluidity than a series of the different functions of water. If you were to do that you might also remove the focus from water itself and give it the emphasis on women that you want. As it is right now, I can understand why it reads as if you are saying that water is woman - rather than the other way round. I hope this has been of some help...any questions, any rants, any elaborations wanted - yell... K |
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passing shadows Member Empyrean
since 1999-08-26
Posts 45577displaced |
I like it |
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Kamala Member
since 2003-04-17
Posts 59CA, USA |
Thank you Seth for your latest comment -- much appreciated. And thank you, also, Passing Shadows. Severn, thank you as well for your very detailed response to my poem. I appreciated several of the things you said. It's very clear to me that we have a great mix of complementary and conflicting aesthetics. I, for one, really like extended metaphor, alliteration, and sibilance. Of course, I'm aware of what you say about being cautious of them. But I think it comes from the fact that I'm also a musician... and something about the percussion of it just works for me. Anyway -- I've been contemplating your comments and ruminating over possible revisions for days... I think I've come to the conclusion that I'm going to let it rest right now and try to come back to it later. Working on it just seems to be taking me away from it at this point. However, thank you so much again for your time and insights. kamala |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
There are some areas where a little pruning might change the texture of this -- but it's really more a matter of taste here is the slice: ---------- Woman is water, taking shape where poured. She courses canyon bottoms sometimes babbling inaudible protests before throwing herself over rocks, thrashes in rapids. ------- Somewhat more like that might give a little better flow and edge. It's a good subject and metaphor though. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Hi. 'Woman is water, naturally taking her shape from where she's poured.' I don't have the problem with the first line being obvious. I do, however, think the second is awkward... not because of the 'naturally' (I actually like that in the context) but because of the wording. 'from where she's poured' -to me, this initially sounded like you were saying the place from which she has been poured, which would be an inaccurate image (although an interesting idea). Maybe you could rephrase it and make it more clear that the shape is that of whatever container she currently is in? 'Sometimes she courses canyon bottoms babbling incomprehensibly protests too quiet to hear before she throws herself over rocks, thrashes in rapids.' Usually I think of gossip groups or mothers cooing to babies when I thnk of babbling incomprehensibly. Maybe you could think of a better phrase to transmit the idea of protest? Also, I actually find that the canyon image contradicts the first image in a way... woman/water herself is shaping the container (canyon) which holds her... thinking of the representative scene in 'My Big Fat Greek Wedding' where the mother guides the father into allowing Tula to work somewhere else... of course, the dad thought it was all his idea, but really the mom was the mastermind. This could be a really great element of the poem, and it's not being touched. 'At times, perhaps, she rains, beating herself hard against unforgiving ground; but mostly she rolls in and out of herself, forever casting waves in a fruitless reach for the man in the moon crashing on cold sands.' What happened to the whole evaporation part? Isn't there a metaphor you can work in there, so as to stay true to the cyclic nature of woman? Agree with Severn on the 'at times, perhaps' because let's face it, watyer does rain, and if woman is water... then woman rains. 'Rolls in and out of herself' is a really cool image... just be sure to ditch 'man in the moon' like last week's garbage... ick. I think a reference to the way the moon controls the sea is very appropriate... but it might be wise to stick with the traditionally female image of the moon. 'Eventually, she ebbs, retreats to her dark salty depths; she leaves meek pools standing silent, reflectionless, evaporating.' Meek pools of what? Presumably, water. So... if woman is water, wouldn't it be fair for the reader to assume that all water is woman? You're leaving a big hole here... who are the 'meek pools'? Lesser women than your subject? Are you speaking only of one woman? I thought it was womankind as a whole... You also present evaporation now (somewhat out of sequence) as a negative thing... and actually, isn't it a natural step in the water cycle? Are some aspects of woman less desireable? What does evaporation represent? This last stanza leaves me feeling bewildered and a little offput (would you consider me a meek pool? My mother? My best friend? Which women are worthy?) as well as full of unanswered questions. |
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