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BROTHER JOHN
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since 2006-04-06
Posts 386


0 posted 2008-08-22 01:29 PM




The heavenly crown rested quietly
On Mother Earth.  Untried pathways I found
With fading, falling leaves and winding streams
With  whisperings: "You've entered wonderland.

Sacred this scene sketched reaching heaven's high:
A lake loomed large and looked like mirrored glass,
Reflecting mysteries and childlike dreams;
And I a "seer" strolled unbeaten paths.

Abounding sounds soon swiftly drifted near:
Encouraging, repeated words I heard.
Around the bending cove, rowed "the" surprise,
And I ran towards the mirrored glass like lake!

A shell I saw, manned heart and soul by nine.
Beyond eye's lenses I saw past a veil;
Its inner structure opened and revealed
The shell had no steel heart of any kind!

Designed this shell by Titan engineers,
No manufactured heart?  A fluke? A fraud?
Within, again, I looked from bow to stern
And I, "the seer," saw no metal pump!

Together rowing easily their shell
When I "knew!"  She has no heart of her own
And only owns a human heart of flesh
When nine selves die to self, the shell's heart born!


© Copyright 2008 BROTHER JOHN - All Rights Reserved
Grinch
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since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
1 posted 2008-08-23 03:13 PM


John,

You’re either doing a great impression of Michel de Nostredame or you’ve got your poetic knickers in a twist. I think it’s probably the latter and unfortunately I also think it might be down, at least in part, to the advice that you’ve been getting in this forum. It’s not that the advice has been bad, it hasn’t, it’s simply that I don’t think you’re quite “getting” what people are saying. If I’m honest I don’t really think you’re ever going to get it. That’s not a criticism of you or your abilities, you’ve shown there’s a good poem somewhere in there, I just think that sometimes you need the right tools to wheedle the little beggar out and, at the moment, I think you’re wielding the wrong tools.

I’m not sure I’m the one to show you the right tools, I’m no further down the poetic path than you are in real terms, but I’m willing to give it a go if you like. All you need to do is shout.

moonbeam
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2 posted 2008-08-23 05:46 PM


BJ

I'm inclined to agree with Grinch.  Either you aren't reading the contemporary poetry that Bob and I have been wittering on about, or, if you are, it's making little impression on you!  That's not necessarily a disaster.  If I were you, I'd take up Grinch's offer like a shot before he changes his mind; he has a somewhat broader and more enlightened view of what is good poetry than me, and I have a feeling he might be very good for you.

Best.

M

Bob K
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since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208

3 posted 2008-08-23 07:18 PM




Dear Brother John,

          I took one of your sonnets and I used your end words and I tried to write something that sounded a little bit more particular.  It could be made to sound a lot more particular.  I plan to keep working on it just for fun.  I'm hoping it's mildly outrageous, even if it's not very good.  Here:


When pharmaceuticals came into play
After the three hour set and the encore,
The band left quietly by the stage door.
A luscious hint of thai stick marked the way.
In older venues the walls seemed to sway.
The lead guitarist couldn’t read a score;
Rhythm guitar could play six chords, no more.
His eyes hurt, keeping the six in mind all day.

Each place looked like every other place.
Their meals were something sliced thin on a roll.
Desserts were someone with a name like Grace
Who had amazing muscular control
And followed the band members everyplace.
She later made a fortune singing Soul.

And now for something completely different.

     You ask for help but won't take it when it's offered.  I told you what I enjoyed about the blank verse poem you put up.  There was a lot of good stuff there.  The folks here seem to think, not just myself, that you need to read contemporary poetry.  It can even be rhyming poetry.  Why the heck are you ignoring the advice?  

     Simply don't put stuff up in a forum that asks for feedback.  You will get loads of people telling you how wonderful you are and how you are the greatest thing since Shakespeare, and most of them will mean it.  Really they will.  But if all you want to do is listen to your own advice, why ask us for ours and then pretend we didn't say anything.

Yours, Bob K.

BROTHER JOHN
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since 2006-04-06
Posts 386

4 posted 2008-08-23 07:53 PM


Dear Grinch,

Let us give it a shot.  I have taken notes by several.  I have read some modern poets which some claim I have not.

I was told to do a poem in first person and use a modern setting.

So if you have time, I will listen.

BJ


BROTHER JOHN
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since 2006-04-06
Posts 386

5 posted 2008-08-23 08:07 PM


Dear  Bob K,

I have read in the works of the authors you have listed.  I spent hours on the net one afternoon doing this.  I even read some of the poems you said I should read later, but I yielded to temptation and read them anyway.

Why do you think I post in CA.  If I did not want  help I surely would not be on CA.

Your remarks are general, but some constructive remarks would be helpful.

You all are the experts here and I don't claim to be a famous writer.  This remark is childish.

Blessing on you.

BJ
I thank you for your thoughtfulness in even reading this poem.


BROTHER JOHN
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since 2006-04-06
Posts 386

6 posted 2008-08-23 08:15 PM


Dear Moonbeam,

I am trying.   If you are  tired of me, just say so. I know there are others more advanced and more capable. I have read your suggestion.  I do not take this lightly. It was not easy to move from the sonnet form.  After reading your remarks and Bob's, maybe I need to go back to them. I have not out grown the crib it seems.

Blessing on you.

BJ


Grinch
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since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
7 posted 2008-08-23 08:37 PM


quote:
I have read some modern poets which some claim I have not.


I’m sure you have BJ, the problem is that if you were to ask most modern poets they’ll tell you they’ve read a lot of traditional poetry which throws you right back where you started. If I were you I’d go back to basics and follow the lead of the modern and traditional poets and read the type of poetry you like to read it’s a well known fact that people learn easier if they’re doing something they like.

I’m not suggesting you’ve been given bad advice, there were particular reasons why Bob and Moon were steering you in the direction of modern poets, the main one being to try to get you away from your penchant for trying to sound poetic which hinders your poems more than it helps. I know it sound’s strange but modern poets create great poetry by not trying to sound poetic.

I don’t mind having a shot at helping you out.

The first thing to realise however is that I’m not qualified to teach anybody how to write good poetry, there are a lot of people far more talented than me in that department kicking around these forums. The best that I can offer is to show you how I write, hopefully from there you can build up to the point where you’ve got something approaching a passable poem. That happens to be my aim too so were in this together, if I sound like I‘m talking twaddle it‘s probably because I am so feel free to bail at any point.

OK that’s the disclaimer out of the way. Next comes the Grinch’s fast-track patented method for writing poetry part one.

Know your enemy.

Poetry is a construction similar to a house, it can be built using a whole heap of different building materials, sometimes lots of different materials, sometimes not so many, but the aim is to end up with something that resembles a functioning house. Or in this case a poem. Using this analogy a sonnet is the equivalent of the Empire State Building, too many component parts and the potential for some serious code violations.

If you're up for it I'd like to tackle something a little more manageable - a mud hut. A mud hut has only a couple of components, namely some pad stones, some sturdy frame supports, a bit of wattle and some daub (mud).

So where do we start?

A firm foundation.

When you're writing a poem or building a mud hut you need a firm foundation, in mud hut construction the foundations are a series of carefully selected stones called pad stones set in the ground onto which the main frame sits. In poetry it’s the story you’re trying to get across, pick the wrong one and your poem’s ruined before you even start, regardless of how much work you put in later on.

The framework.

Once the foundation is in place you need to turn your attention to the framework, without it your wattle, which is made from thin twigs, is going to collapse in a heap when you apply the daub. In a poem this is the form you’re going to use. The Empire State Building’s form is constructed from lines of rigid steel girders precisely measured using iambic pentameter, we’ve got lines made from simple but flexible branches. The only thing we need to do is to make sure we cut the branches to the same length, and we’re going to measure them using syllables alone. If you like you can choose to chamfer the ends of the branches to give them a fancy finish, rhymes a good tool for this but you have to get it right otherwise it stands out like a sore thumb.

The wattle.

We need something substantial to slap the daub onto, otherwise our wall and poem’s going to be full of holes. These are the words or twigs that are weaved around the lines of branches, you need to pick the best you can find, use any bad ones and the daub won’t cover it properly.

The daub.

This is where you get your hands dirty. You need to smear mud on the wattle to give the wall a smooth finish - Poets call this polish and it covers a multitude of sins.

The plan.

Every construction needs a plan, it’ll tell you what you’re building, the dimensions and consequently the amount of materials you’ll need.

Luckily I’m the architect on this build so I’ve drawn the plan.

It’s a simple mud hut (poem).
It’s got twelve frame poles (lines) in sections (verses) of four poles per section.
The poles need to measure roughly ten syllables.

You supply the wattle

Shout me when you’re ready to apply the daub and I’ll give you a hand. I’ll be back tomorrow to see how you’re doing.

Oh! Almost forgot the foundation - your story is “how to build a mud hut“.

Have fun, and if you have any questions just shout.

      

[This message has been edited by Grinch (08-24-2008 06:36 AM).]

moonbeam
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8 posted 2008-08-24 04:05 AM


BJ

Of course I'm not "tired of you"! I'm not great at putting over what I mean sometimes - my bad.  I just felt that the offer to help from Grinch was a very good opportunity for you.

Go for it.

M

BROTHER JOHN
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since 2006-04-06
Posts 386

9 posted 2008-08-24 10:09 PM


Dear Grinch,

I am sorry for  the delay.  I have been gone for most of today.  But here is  the mud hut.

MUD HUT ON THE MAIN

Attraction centered mid Ole Town's "Bird Square"
Where gathered nosy news hounds by the scores
With asses, mules and smelly bellied boars.
Famed chicks saw mud, clucked, scratched everywhere.

A mud hut,with ribs,stood twelve stories high,
Crisscrossing each ribb, roosting poles of clout
With each hogged tied with kudzu vines throughout.
Between poles dabbed mud bought from a pig's sty.

Owls, wall-eyed, hooted at the muddy shack,
As turkeys struted toward this famous "cite."
Ten white hens perched on each pole for the night,
As magpies pipe: "This hut may have a crack!"


Grinch
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since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
10 posted 2008-08-25 07:33 AM



BJ

It does have a crack, it has several in fact, both in the first story and in the half obscured second (yes I got it).

The problem is that you’re still trying to build a twelve storey poem with one storey material. You end up with a failed skyscraper instead of a perfectly acceptable, and respectable, mud hut. Basically you’ve gone off-plan, took a trip to the nearest builders merchant and maxed out your card on a whole heap of material you don’t need. We had pad stones, branches or poles, twigs and mud. For some reason you’ve acquired the equivalent of reinforced concrete, UPVC windows and terracotta roof tiles. No wonder it’s cracked under all that weight!



It’s a common complaint among DIY poets, they see other builders using cantilever joists and RSJ’s, waxing lyrical about the latest reciprocating jigsaw and are fooled into believing you need all that paraphernalia on every job. You don’t. Don’t get me wrong all that stuff is useful and you’ll hopefully get to use all of it in future poems but for now I want to see if you can build something simple with only a few materials.

I think we need to visit Grinch’s Mud Hut Emporium and view the latest mud hut catalogue :

Here’s an example of a simple mud hut poem written by a Hack poet.

To build a hut from mud you need a plan
And granite stones to rest some poles upon
They form the frame through which you weave the wall
That’s clothed in daub, but first you need a hole

The hole is for the stones that bear the poles
That lend support so you can build your walls
Of twigs and daub, more commonly called mud
Which needs firm poles in place to make it good

The poles that rest upon the granite stones
Are more akin to skeletons or bones
They’re there to hold the twigs that form the skin
Of the hut that’s made of mud that I live in.

Give it another go, this time stick to the material at hand - stones, poles, twigs and mud.


chopsticks
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since 2007-10-02
Posts 888
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11 posted 2008-08-25 09:02 AM


Dear Bro. John. I think I read where you said you like satire.
This is how you write satire :

Raleigh and Shakespeare were sitting around the forum one day when  Shakes ask Raleigh. am I a poet or what?  Raleigh thought for a moment then said, go ask the King.  

So Shakes went to see the King and ask him, am I a poet or what? The King said , “You are what you are.”

The next day back at the forum Raleigh ask Shakes, well what did the king say ? Shakes said , the King said  “You are what you are”

Raleigh smiled and said, well you know now, that you are a poet.  If you were an~ or what~ he would have said ” You is what you is “.

Grinch
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Posts 2929
Whoville
12 posted 2008-08-25 10:23 AM



“Although satire is usually meant to be funny, the purpose of satire is not primarily humor in itself so much as an attack on something of which the author strongly disapproves”

I think I get your meaning Chops - So I’ll go back to trying to teach myself to write and let other people be what they is.


chopsticks
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since 2007-10-02
Posts 888
The US,
13 posted 2008-08-25 10:58 AM


Grinch, this was not about a person, especially you , it was about a fact.

Bro John said at some time in this forum that he likes satire . I was just suggesting that maybe he should try that.

You guys said that his other stuff lacked what you guys deemed to be poetry.

Grinch, this was not about you I can’t help what you think and I really don’t care what you think .

Not A Poet
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Oklahoma, USA
14 posted 2008-08-25 12:18 PM


Chops, somehow when you juggle that old non-pc joke or "satire" around like that, it completely loses any meaning.
chopsticks
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Posts 888
The US,
15 posted 2008-08-25 12:42 PM


Not A Poet, I have no idea what you mean by “ That old non-pc joke “ , but I got a feeling somebody else is going to come along and tell me.

BROTHER JOHN
Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386

16 posted 2008-08-25 05:03 PM


Dear Grinch,

Here is another version:

An architect of huts?! I'm called to be
A builder of mud huts!  First, plan the plan
And gather in place flattened stones, a span
To hold beams bridging o'er geograpy.

On solid stones  place oak beams twelve feet high
With poles cut ten feet long tied by a vine.
I  stretched thatch on a lifeless form's design
With branch, twig, leaf entwined, some stayed in line.

The dirty job prolonged! . . . Then special mire
I bought and bathed the hut from pole to pole
With reddesh grave mud, clothed in death's attire;
This hollow hut's a form without a soul!


Grinch
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Posts 2929
Whoville
17 posted 2008-08-25 07:30 PM


Soul?

Don’t let Brad hear you say that - he’ll flip.



An architect of huts?! I'm called to be
A builder of mud huts! First, plan the plan
And gather in place flattened stones, a span
To hold beams bridging o'er geograpy.

On solid stones place oak beams twelve feet high
With poles cut ten feet long tied by a vine.
I stretched thatch on a lifeless form's design
With branch, twig, leaf entwined, some stayed in line.

The dirty job prolonged! . . . Then special mire
I bought and bathed the hut from pole to pole
With reddesh grave mud, clothed in death's attire;
This hollow hut's a form without a soul!


You’re still trying too hard to be poetic.

It’s close enough though.

The first thing I’m going to do is get rid of the punctuation, this is a draft so it’s likely to change and you’ve enough to concentrate on without worrying whether you need an exclamation mark, a question mark or - an interrobang?!

If you really really must use something to denote a pause or break use a comma, you can change it later.

An architect of huts I'm called to be
A builder of mud huts First plan the plan
And gather in place flattened stones a span
To hold beams bridging o'er geograpy

On solid stones place oak beams twelve feet high
With poles cut ten feet long tied by a vine
I stretched thatch on a lifeless form's design
With branch twig leaf entwined some stayed in line

The dirty job prolonged then special mire
I bought and bathed the hut from pole to pole
With reddesh grave mud clothed in death's attire
This hollow hut's a form without a soul
Let’s see if I break down the fist two lines of S1:

An architect of huts I'm called to be
A builder of mud huts First plan the plan
And gather in place flattened stones a span
To hold beams bridging o'er geography

L1
This is an inversion, in everyday usage you’d say “I’m called to be an architect of huts”, I get the feeling that you created the inversion to hit “be”. Most people do this so they can fit in an important rhyming counterpart ,if it doesn’t sound too out of place such an inversion is forgiven and partly hidden by the smooth transition created by the rhyme. You however seem to have inverted the line to allow the use of “geography” in L4 Which isn’t a good trade off. The reason being that geography stands out instead of being smooth because it doesn’t seem to fit the subject and consequently jars as you read it. By the way is there a reason why the rhyme scheme is different in S1? It’s ABBA while the others are ABAB.

L2
This is a continuation of L1, it’s called an enjambment and in rhyming poetry acts to remove the inclination to emphasise every rhyming word. Unfortunately if the rhyme sticks out to start with this doesn’t work, in fact it exacerbates the problem. The reason is that the reader has a tendency to reassess the line to confirm how it should be read and in doing so the rhyme, which we’re trying to hide, gets hit twice. If you use enjambment too much with inexperienced readers they’re forever re-assessing and lose the rhythm. You’ve also broken L2 by starting a new sentence halfway through, it’s called a medial caesurae and is normally balanced by more of the same repeated in surrounding lines or stanzas. You also have one in L1. If you just stick one or two in for the hell of it it’ll just cause the reader to break rhythm at that point for no apparent reason. If you are going to use them I’d recommend sticking one in each stanza, preferably on the corresponding line.

I could go on but it’s late and I’m tired so I‘m going to do some DIY on the first stanza explaining as I go.


I’m called to be an architect of huts

I’ve lined myself up for a fall here, huts is a hard word to rhyme, not only has the word I use got to rhyme it’s also got to fit the theme. Inversion? Nah! Let me see - puts, cuts, shuts, sluts (hardly), tuts, guts, ruts (possible) corrupts abuts (another possible). I’m getting bored so what do I have, ruts or abuts. That’ll do.

A builder of mud huts first plan the plan

I don’t like the caesurae, it’ll have to go

A builder of mud huts based on a plan

I’ve already got huts in L1, the repetition just looks lazy

A builder of mud homes based on a plan

And gather in place flattened stones a span

The end word has to be ruts or abuts to fix the rhyme scheme.

To hold beams I place some stones in ruts

This sounds like I’ve jumped in halfway through the instructions.

I start by placing flattened stones in ruts

Better.

To hold beams bridging o'er geography

Geography has to go to be replaced by span, and that faux poetic o’er is toast too.

To hold the beams that bridge over the span

What span? What do spans do? What do you do with spans? What do beams need to do to form a span?

To hold the beams that meet to form a span

I’m called to be an architect of huts
A builder of mud homes based on a plan
I start by placing flattened stones in ruts
To hold the beams that meet to form a span

It’s never going to win a poetry competition but it’s what I was after - a simple mud hut poem.

Now BJ, do you think you can do the same on the other two stanza’s? Try to include your reasons for any changes and above all keep it simple I know it‘s a bit “Cat sat on the mat“ ish but there‘s method in my madness. Oh, and by the way don’t throw away those UPVC windows - I might have a use for them later on.


BROTHER JOHN
Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386

18 posted 2008-08-25 10:16 PM


Dear Grinch,

Here is the latest"

I laid twelve feet long beams on solid rock
And tie to each ten feet long poles  with vine
I stretched thatched branches, twigs, leaves and red twine
And fashion four walls in an interlock

I purchased special reddish mud and mire
And dabbled mud all day from pole to pole
I looked within when finished saw no living fire
For hollow hutted shells have no living soul.
                                                Next to the last line tthere are 12 beats. ll on the last line.  I see this in the great poems.   But what about here?


Some notes I  have taken from this site and books say that articles,conjunctions, pronouns and prepositions should fall on the unaccented mark.  I see many poems that do  not follow this. Another question: Many sources  I have read  say to stay away from verbs of being.  They just  tell and not show.  Many times it is impossible to do this for several  reasons.  On PiP I see verbs of being flying everwhere. I am confused. Too, when I  scan some poems on PiP, so ofter the accents do  not  match the wording. Some of these poems are highly praised in CA.  Again this confuses me. I get caught  between no and yes on this. What is  your take on these?

You are going into a lot of detail and I am thankful.

BJ



[This message has been edited by BROTHER JOHN (08-26-2008 01:05 AM).]

Essorant
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since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
19 posted 2008-08-26 12:07 PM


These lines have fairly perfect iambic pentameter:



    /         /       /       /       /
I purchased special reddish mud and mire
     /       /        /       /        /
And babbled mud all day from pole to pole
     /        /       /       /      /
And hollowed sadden form without a soul


("all" is an acceptable exception)

Do you see how abruptly your other lines differ from these?


BROTHER JOHN
Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386

20 posted 2008-08-26 12:49 PM


Dear Essorant,

I was just  working on these lines.  You have not seen the edit and this might not be acceptable, tho it  flows.  What is your  feeling on the last two line?


moonbeam
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21 posted 2008-08-26 03:52 AM


This is very good to see Grinch and BJ.  

Good progress BJ   .  Simple clarity.  You  need to sort out the meter a bit and the tense seems to change at one point ("tie"); I'm sure Grinch will help with that.

Good work.

JenniferMaxwell
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22 posted 2008-08-26 01:14 PM



It really is amazing to see the rough spots being smoothed out. I think you're doing fantastic, BJ! And the input from Grinch, BobK and Moonbeam is helpful to all who read in this forum.


Grinch
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since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
23 posted 2008-08-26 03:54 PM



quote:
What is your take on these?


I smile politely then ignore them if I think they don‘t fit into my plan, for the same reason I ignore my neighbour every Saturday when he inspects the curved garden wall I’m building while insisting I’d have been better off building it straight.

Don’t think of them as rules BJ, think of them as guidelines, advice or suggestions, if you think they improve your poem and get it closer to what you wanted use them, if you don‘t then don‘t. Sticking to them rigidly simply because you think you have to is a cast iron guaranteed way of ending up with a failed poem and worse still, you’ll get no enjoyment out of writing them.

quote:
Next to the last line there are 12 beats. ll on the last line. I see this in the great poems. But what about here?


We aren’t building a great poem BJ we’re building a mud hut poem. Remember the plan?

“The poles need to measure roughly ten syllables.”

Anything between eight and twelve is fine, roughly is close enough for now. Besides you’ll be cutting them back eventually to fit the UPVC windows.

I’m out of time. I’ll have to get back to your latest revision tomorrow.

It's looking good though.

BROTHER JOHN
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since 2006-04-06
Posts 386

24 posted 2008-08-26 04:40 PM


Dear Grinch,

You have freed me from my fetters.  I  have tired to follow the law and now you offer grace.   What a relief.

What is (are) UPVCwindows?

BJ


moonbeam
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25 posted 2008-08-26 04:56 PM


quote:
What is (are) UPVCwindows?

The scourge of beautiful old buildings. The Beelzebub of sensitive restoration and the Satan of all good taste.

and if you really must know:

Wikipedia

"Unplasticized polyvinyl chloride (uPVC)

uPVC or Rigid PVC is often used in the building industry as a low-maintenance material, particularly in the UK, and in the USA where it is known as vinyl, or vinyl siding.[5][6]. The material comes in a range of colors and finishes, including a photo-effect wood finish, and is used as a substitute for painted wood, mostly for window frames and sills when installing double glazing in new buildings, or to replace older single glazed windows. It has many other uses including fascia, and siding or weatherboarding. The same material has almost entirely replaced the use of cast iron for plumbing and drainage, being used for waste pipes, drainpipes, gutters and downpipes.[7]

Due to environmental concerns[8] use of PVC is discouraged by some local authorities[9] in countries such as Germany and The Netherlands. This concerns both flexible PVC and rigid uPVC as not only the plasticizers in PVC are seen as a problem but also the emissions from manufacturing and disposal. The use of modern impact modifiers offer great stability. The issues of migration and brittleness of the PVC compound are overcome."

Grinch
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since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
26 posted 2008-08-28 03:58 PM



Sorry about the delay - life sometimes gets in the way of having fun.

I laid twelve feet long beams on solid rock

This is good, but could be better, your use of “feet” caught my eye. It’s a small thing and for all I know it’s a quirk of dialect but it looks odd - my natural tendency would be to say:

I laid twelve-foot long beams on solid rock

Grammatically either would do for me but listen to the difference in sound, foot is a rounded deep boom measured against the squeaky high-pitched shrill of feet.  

And tie to each ten feet long poles with vine

Tied - past tense, the story is all about what you did at some point in the past so all tenses should match, that’s not a rule either. If your story starts in the past, then explains where you are now and moves onto where you hope to be in the future the tenses will change to fit the transitions.

How many beams and how many poles? We had stones, beams or poles, twigs and mud. Continuity is an absolute must, if the beams are the same as the poles there are twelve - get that wrong and the reader will spot the flaw and think realise you‘re making the whole thing up. If they’re twigs you need to emphasis the difference so the reader can follow the story.

“Dan picked up the iron rod and swung it with both hands in a long arc that caught Daniel squarely under the chin. As Dan lay motionless on the cold floor of the stable Daniel finally realised that the nightmare was over and wept uncontrollably.”

Personally I was rooting for Dan.. I mean Daniel.


I stretched thatched branches, twigs, leaves and red twine

Leaves? Bad idea, they’ll rot once the daub is applied reducing adhesion.

I stretched thatched branches, twigs, and red twine

Branches and twigs? And where did the twine come from? Could it be perhaps an additional inclusion that simply fit’s the rhyme? This is where rhyme starts dictating the story, you end up down all sorts of blind alleys if you let rhyme dictate what you’re trying to say.


And fashion four walls in an interlock


It should be fashioned - past tense

BJ if you have time run through the final stanza and have a quick check bearing in mind what I’ve said so far. Then post a fully revised version.


BROTHER JOHN
Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386

27 posted 2008-08-28 07:20 PM


Dear Grinch,  

Here is the lastest  version:

By the way,  Your revision of the first stanza places the poem in present tense.  I found it almost impossible to move the other verb to present tense.  So I will have to stay with the exception you have mentioned.

I'm called to be an architect of  huts
a builder of mud homes based on a plan
I start by placing flattened stones in ruts
to hold the beams that meet to  form a span

I laid twelve foot long beams on solid rock
and tied twelve ten foot long poles with green vine
and branches with twigs thatched in a design
and fashioned four walls in an interlock

I purchased special reddesh mud and mire
and dabbled mud all day from pole to pole
I looked inside when finished saw no fire
for empty earthern huts possess no soul


Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
28 posted 2008-08-29 12:44 PM



You're not tied to my tense selection BJ, or even my examples, as long as the tenses match (or mismatch for a reason) feel free to edit away.

I'll be back, get the UPVC windows ready.


Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
29 posted 2008-08-29 04:28 PM



I'm called to be an architect of huts
a builder of mud homes based on a plan
To start I bury flattened stones in ruts
to hold the beams that meet to form a span

I then set twelve foot beams upon each rock
tie tight each pole in place with thin green vine
thatch branches and  weave twigs in my design
and fashion from them walls that interlock

I gathered special reddish mud and mire
and daubed it all day long from pole to pole
When finished I looked hard  but saw no fire
for empty earthen huts possess no soul


I’ve edited it to fix the error in  tense that I created earlier and applied the reciprocating jigsaw to even out the syllables, I’ve largely ignored the meter and I’ve left the abab abba abab rhyme scheme in place.

We’ve ended up with what we set out to build - a simple mud hut poem but, as you say, it doesn’t have much soul. It bumbles along in a monotonous sing-song manner which can get a bit tedious. It fulfils it’s purpose and is a good start but ends up looking like a fairly plain list. We need a fresh outlook, we need UPVC windows!

To fit the windows we need to cut the lines down a bit. The new plan calls for a syllable count of

10 - 7 - 10 - 7
7 - 10 - 10 - 7
10 - 7 - 10 - 7

You can lose the rhyme scheme if it makes it any easier, all that matters is the syllable count, roughly won’t do anymore, now we need precision.

As usual shout if you need clarification.


BROTHER JOHN
Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386

30 posted 2008-08-29 07:24 PM


Dear Grinch,

Here is the lastest version:


I'm called to be an architect of  huts
a mud hut  based on a plan
at first I bury  flattened stones in ruts
to hold beams forming a span

I next set twelve foot beams upon each rock
tie each pole in place with vines
thatch branches and weave twigs in my design
and fashion interlocked walls

I  gather special reddesh mud and mire
and dab mud from pole to pole
when finished I looked hard but saw no fire
since empty huts have no soul




BROTHER JOHN
Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386

31 posted 2008-09-15 06:28 PM


Dear Grinch,

I am afraid I have run you off. Come back to the turf you love.  You do not have to  carry me any more.  Thanks for all your time and trouble. I got the drift and will do my best to cut out the "bull".  I am going to stay with the sonnet form since it limits me.  Thanks again.  BJ


Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
32 posted 2008-09-15 07:29 PM


Hmm..

I thought I’d posted a reply to this before I went to Spain, I definitely wrote one but I can’t find it anywhere on my PC so I either dreamed it or didn’t save it.

In my imagined reply I hacked the poem even more to make the lines even less metrical, I also lost the rhyme to try to show you that poetry can be written without metre or rhyme yet still be poetry.

The next job was to reconstruct the poem replacing the simple description by weaving in another possible interpretation - the act of building a poem - by adding keywords and obscurity. All that was to try to show you that forms, other than sonnets, are available. I think it was probably wrong of me to try to get you to write something else, if you want to write sonnets who am I to try to talk you out of it.

You’ve almost got one btw, it just needs a couple of edits:  

I'm called to be an architect of huts;
a builder of mud homes based on a plan.
To start I bury flattened stones in ruts
to hold the beams that meet to form a span.

I then set twelve foot beams upon each rock,
tie tight each pole in place with thin green vine
and fashion from them walls that interlock,
thatch branches and weave twigs to my design.

I gather special reddish mud and mire
and daub it all day long from pole to pole.
When finished I look hard but see no fire
for empty earthen huts possess no soul.

Are poems like mud huts? I can’t decide
perhaps the soul is what you put inside.

Craig

BROTHER JOHN
Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386

33 posted 2008-09-16 12:29 PM


Dear Grinch,

You are a gentleman.  Thanks for everything.

BJ


dracula68
Junior Member
since 2008-09-07
Posts 30
Illinois
34 posted 2008-09-17 05:05 AM


The heavenly crown rested quietly
On Mother Earth.  Untried pathways I found
With fading, falling leaves and winding streams
With  whisperings: "You've entered wonderland.

Sacred this scene sketched reaching heaven's high:
A lake loomed large and looked like mirrored glass,
Reflecting mysteries and childlike dreams;
And I a "seer" strolled unbeaten paths.

Abounding sounds soon swiftly drifted near:
Encouraging, repeated words I heard.
Around the bending cove, rowed "the" surprise,
And I ran towards the mirrored glass like lake!

A shell I saw, manned heart and soul by nine.
Beyond eye's lenses I saw past a veil;
Its inner structure opened and revealed
The shell had no steel heart of any kind!

Designed this shell by Titan engineers,
No manufactured heart?  A fluke? A fraud?
Within, again, I looked from bow to stern
And I, "the seer," saw no metal pump!

Together rowing easily their shell
When I "knew!"  She has no heart of her own
And only owns a human heart of flesh
When nine selves die to self, the shell's heart born!" -- Brother John

Sorry about the busted line breaks. C+P doesn't preserve them apparently, but I think I can get to the heart of what I'd like to say.

Inverted sentence structures sound arch and self conscious which is ironic because the whole Yoda-like point is to break out of the self conscious box. I just kept stumbling on clumsy cracks like "Designed this shell by Titan engineers"

Even with the proper "was" as in "Designed this shell was by Titan engineers" it doesn't work. It sounds tortured to my ears. Speak plain. Real seers and great poets always speak plain. Their message is hard enough without convoluting the language. Poetry has enough of a veil of mystery and forboding without the poet making it more difficult.

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