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Authenticity (A rewrite)
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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Authenticity (A rewrite) |
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BROTHER JOHN Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386 |
AUTHENTICITY Mid Terra's time, I saw earth as a stage With each assigned parts by a potentate Of papier-mache.` Kin of every state Enslaved to their roles, trapped every age. This hollowed hulk reigned with an holy rage As lands enchained, accepting freighted fate! Each played their scripts with heavy hellish hate, But one! He questioned the norm's average! Josh eyed the fatten potentate's array Of plaited paper and discerned austere Sacred priests hiding in its hollow bay. He smashed with a stick, Josh the mutineer, The sham's scheme, with scared, shamed priests shackled prey And dried mache`flew freely far and near! [This message has been edited by BROTHER JOHN (08-05-2008 07:42 PM).] |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
AUTHENTICITY Amid earth's floodlights and beyond Broadway Resides a door of hope; a living door Exists in you. It matters not the more Of crowds, but owning your own life's doorway. Yet, this door early locked by miming play Of "wantabes!" These wrote as long before And acted endlessly mid ancient lore, Like Sisyphus' fate, bound as Zues' prey! There's ceaseless knocking from a higher side And loudly "the voice" deeply pleads within, "Let not dead scripted ones for you decide." "In yielding to ghosts, you against self sin And why? It matters not life's flowing tide, If you write the script, either way you win!" Ok Brother John, I think I can safely say that this "I'll do it MY way" poem is a disaster. The first line just about keeps me alert and reading mainly because of the specific "Broadway", but things go downhill quickly in L2. "Doors of hope" and "living doors" and "doors inside you" and "life's doorway"!! as pretty a collection of hackneyed cliche as I've seen in a while. Apart from the seemingly endless repetition of the word "door" and all the other "aww" sounds: broa door door more (crowds - slant) door door - in 5 lines no less, you have the excruciating sentence "It matters not the more/Of crowds, but owning your own life's doorway." Apart from incomprehensibility for the sake of rhyme and meter "owning your own life's doorway" is a really really clumsy phrase. S2 you start badly with a "yet". "Yet" is one of those annoyingly "poetic" words that entices beginners to use it simply because it sounds like the introduction to a clever poetic point. If you are about to use "yet" your antennae need to be set on "full pretension alert" - your wasn't. "Early locked" is an inversion for the sake of meter, and "These wrote as long before/ And acted endlessly mid ancient lore" leaves me wondering if English is your first language! But it gets worse - out roll the mandatory Greek Gods! If in doubt when wishing to make a GRAND POETIC TRUTH bring out Zues (sic) and his faithful band of classical deity dinosaurs! Even if you have no idea why you are doing it, it makes the poem sound important. The "higher side" - "the voice" ... this is Stars Wars now? "Deeply pleads" - ugh. "Dead scripted ones" - oh dear, this is very overwritten John. "Against self sin" - another excruciating inversion. "It matters not" - and another. "Either way you win" - and a horrid trite ending. A good poem needs no additional moral! I know I've been blunt here John, but the point is that you aren't a novice writer and you have the potential to present ideas in a far more compelling way than this. What you've done in this poem is to take a universal truth, as expounded by zillions of poets and writers through the ages including ole blue eyes himself, and wrapped it up in a oil stained bit of old chip shop newspaper (apologies if you are from the US and don't get the metaphor). As a result, even if it was done well, it would likely be rather boring. You are at a junction with your writing. If you are simply writing for yourself and for "fun" then there's not much more to say except that it's pretty pointless to post in a workshop forum. If you are on the other hand writing to try and interest an audience, and to bring home the ideas you are writing about to other people then you really need to think about how you do that effectively. My advice if you want to pursue the latter course is to re-read what BobK wrote in your other thread. After you've done that think about how you COULD have presented the message: "do it YOUR way" - from your OWN PERSONAL experience. Quit trying to write about universal truths using what you think is a UNIVERSAL language. The language of the Gods and the language of abstract adjectives and adverbs ain't gonna grab people. Write about universal truths by focussing down on the everyday detail of your own experience. Be true to the poem not to your actual life. Embroider, embellish, LIE! But get the point across by writing a poem about the notch on your cat's left ear, not by trying to resurrect the impotent power of the past. If I seem harsh, I'm not I promise  .M [This message has been edited by moonbeam (08-04-2008 09:37 AM).] |
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BROTHER JOHN Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386 |
Dear Moonbeam, You are an early riser if you live in the U.S. A. I posted to get honest help and I got this. I have read your critiques of many poems and this one takes the cake. I am a novice, not a profession writer. This kind of criticism should be reserved for the professional. You in a rude way have invited me not to post any more and that will I honor. By no means do I say this poem is perfect and that is why I ask for help. I get your message, quit bugging pip. I took several hours to research the authors that Bob suggested and it is clear that you and him are not in favor of sonnets but favor modern poetry. That is fine. I have seen you praise others for references to Greek lore. All the way through your critique are no nos. I taught school for many years and when I corrected a student, I would then say something like this, "It might be better said this way ... ." I see nothing in your critique like this. So I saddly say good bye and you will never have to read another of my trite words. You are over qualified to deal with novices or you just do not have the patience. It maybe that you need to consider something else besides instructing others. Critiques include constructive remarks. Constructive remarks are just that, one helps in construction not just razing a structure. I did not see any suggestions set forth to show me how to do better construct, just the razing of the poem. It would have been more professional to have said, "John, this poem needs to be rewritten." But you plainly said I should not put such on pip. In reading your critiques of others, I never read this. Too, I have been thinking that maybe you have not awaken yet, but I have. Blessings on you and I pray the best is yet to come to you. BJ |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Sorry you took it that way John. Also perhaps I didn't make it clear enough that I think the poem should be scrapped in its present form, I moved straight on to saying WHY I thought that. Sorry for that oversight too. If you post to a workshop forum you should expect to get honest opinions and well meant advice. That's what I spent 45 minutes this morning doing. What I did not do was say you shouldn't post here. Quite the reverse in fact. What I said was that if you are happy writing poetry like that by all means do so. I said that IMO it won't much interest many contemporary readers, and it certainly won't IMO take you forward much as a writer, and to that extent IMO there is not much point in posting to a workshop forum. But obviously that's your choice, and nothing whatsoever to with me. I did however go on to say that if you want to make your writing interesting and exciting for your audience then you are precisely at the stage of your poetic development IMO where you would benefit from posting to a workshop forum. I'm not so sure there's any such thing as a "professional" poet - well maybe, but here we are all just trying to improve our writing, and my critiques are all written with that constructive end in mind. I do apologise if I offended you, I don't apologise for stating my opinion of your poem. M |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
Brother John, what a differences a couple days make “ I was on the rebound from the less than inspiring writing posted in the last week or two in this forum.” Moonbeam, I'm sorry I offended you. But, keep on telling it like it is Chops. “ It was just a joy to read something competent. It was fairly obvious you knew what you were doing and were comfortable with it.” |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: And apart from petty trouble making, chopsticks, your point is? |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
Moonbeam, I have already told you I have your point ! |
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BROTHER JOHN Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386 |
Dear chopsticks, Thanks for your reply. I over reacted I know. I submitted the poem for criticism and expected to get just this. Moonbean indicted I do not know about Greek myths and used an illustration to make the poem sound important. I majored in history and know about Greek myths. We still live them out in ways beyond the conscious mind and Moonbean is not conscious of this. She does not know much about existentialism. This is philosophical basis for the poem. Bob has been forthright with me about his distaste for sonnets and I read a blistering essay he wrote against them. The sonnet is not a sick love song form. This form has lived because it still speaks. Modern poetry will be history in time to come. I read some of it and I think I am reading rap, except rap does rhyme some times. Too, some of the modern poetry is prose posing under tne word poetry. Writers have the freedom to choose their form and I honor their decision. But some how my choice of the sonnet troubles them. Moonbeam said I am no novice. Lol on this one. I simply try and for some reason this sonnet turned her off. In reading it, I think that lines 11-14 set off the explosion. I will post in another place. I do need guidance and not whippings. I taught school for many years and I know the difference. I could have taken her "blunt" remarks glady if she had offer some examples for me to follow. In the first poem she critiqued, this was done. Thanks and blessing upon you! BJ |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
“Thanks and blessing upon you!” Bro. John, thanks for the blessing, cause I need all I can get. Don’t leave, stay and write another poem. If you leave, we’ll never know if you got better |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
John How you can say that Bob and I "dislike sonnets" I have no idea! I can't speak for him of course, but the way I read his replies I don't pick up that vibe at all. As for me, I love sonnets. In fact I usually like all well written contemporary poetry, and many older works too. It's a shame, but you are missing the point of this forum. I am just one critiquer with an opinion. You are right, I don't know you, I don't know your background, I don't have a clue about your profession or what you have read - all I can do is give you my honest opinion of what you wrote based upon my own subjective experience and my reading of the poem you posted here. This poem stands alone. It doesn't come with extensive footnotes saying "I BrotherJohn know all about Greek mythology and existensiwhatsits and this poem draws on Vol IVX of Diaosophomes's Eruditier Part 2 Para 98". The poem has to work alone, and for me, for one reason or another - perhaps my own dismal literary shortcomings, perhaps not - it doesn't. It's not up to me to rewrite your poem if I don't want to. I didn't even need to give you advice as to how to proceed for the future with your writing. But the point is, I may be wrong. Sure as hell some people will think I AM wrong, and I completely respect that. If you don't like my comments just ignore them, they are simply my opinion. M |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
John Come on, there is no need to leave the forum. That itself would be rash and lacking patience. Are you going to deny everybody else the chance to help, only on the behalf of one comment that didn't please you? If Moonbeam's comments were inappropriate the moderators would remove them. Many of us will not encourage being so negative, but I think most of us should encourage diversity of judgements and being able to have the strength and patience to deal with some of the harder ones as well. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Ess is right. Also it's worth making the point that "negative" criticism, or more properly "criticism that says negative things" can be constructive or destructive. I like to think that the negative things I say about poems are always constructive. Moreover I feel that one of the main tests of whether a critic means negative comments to be constructive or destructive is if she/he can support those comments with explanations. That's why I always try to say in detail why I dislike something. I hope that a receptive writer will note the dislike of a particular and make a decision as to whether to repeat it. An unreceptive writer, is I suppose likely to focus purely on all the negative comments and write them off as destructive. And even worse focus on those comments to the exclusion of the positives in a critique. Perhaps I have a responsibility to make sure that I present my negative comments in a sugar wrapped package, perhaps I should bear in mind that in today's society negativity equates to failure and failure does not exist. M |
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BROTHER JOHN Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386 |
Dear Moonbeam, Yes, I over reacted and I should not have been rude. You are right in that the poem stand alone with no footnotes. I read an essay by Bob to someone who had written a sonnet. Bob was forthright about sonnets, and yet in the end he said that if the person wanted to write sonnets,ok. Bob has been helpful and I thank him. Please forgive a "novice" in life. I am still under construction. Blessings on you for life's best. BJ You have been very helpful and I guess when no creative ways were set forth by you to help me rewrite this poem I was very disappointed. Yes, you have that right to refuse. I guess I will eat humble pie since I need help. At this point, I need to shelf this poem and find another to post. I am not looking for a yes person. Over the years my critics have been my teachers and by them I grow. All I ask is to be taught. I plan to buy the book on sonnets you suggested when I return to Borders. Blessings on you for life's best. BJ |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
John You are a poppet. Also a promising writer. I know I can be a bit harsh and I sometimes use sarcasm or irony, which, when you can't see my pretty smiling face, can be hurtful.I'm sorry I spoiled your morning, but if you can try and separate what I said about this particular poem from what I think about you (see above poppet comment) then I think we'll both make better progress. Best to you too. M |
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BROTHER JOHN Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386 |
Dear Essorant, Thanks for your reply. I have written Moonbeam and expressed my lack of good judgment. I expect Constructive Criticism. I taught school for years and know the power of positive criticism. I will repost another sonnet in a day or so. This one, well, maybe it needs to be filed in the trash. Blessings on you. BJ |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
You asked for examples. This from Ann Drysdale came 2nd in the National Poetry Comp (UK)in 2001 and is one of my all time favourite sonnets: ANN DRYSDALE new fruit In the last knockings of the evening sun Eve drinks Calvados. Elsewhere in her life She has played muse and mistress, bi tch and wife. Now all that gunpoint gamesmanship is done. She loves the garden at this time of day. Raising her third glass up to God, she grins; If this is her come-uppance for her sins It's worth a little angst along the way. A fourth. Again the cork's slow squeaky kiss. If, as the liquor tempts her to believe, The Lord has one more Adam up His sleeve He's going to have to take her as she is – Out in the garden in a dressing-gown Breathing old apples as the sun goes down. [This message has been edited by moonbeam (08-05-2008 04:33 AM).] |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
John, quote: The only lack of good judgement I think would be giving up on this sonnet after only posting it one day ago (?)! It is great that you are eager to share more, but it may not fare well with those either if you won't even try to work harder on this one. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: I wholeheartedly agree with that. Please John, replace it at the start of the thread so that others may comment. Best. M |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
BJ, What specifically are you looking for in terms of critique. How can we help you? I know that may be a difficult question to answer, but it can help us minimize our own workload. M, Welcome back. I hope this doesn't inhibit your uninhibited style. It is good to see it again. Just between you and me though, why not go after some of the older members (Jim, Bob, Chops, me). We all have tough skins. And we haven't had anybody screaming clique, clique in a while. BJ, If you're looking for a model, I suggest A.E. Stallings. She is my favorite of the 'turn of the century' crop of new poets. She is a formalist, a classicist, and shamelessly uses Greek mythology in her stuff. -- and she's fun to read. I'm not sure I get the existentialism here nor do I get Sisyphus as Zues's prey. I'd be interested if you expanded on that a bit more. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Hi Brad I only came back because I thought you'd taken a vacation and it was safe for a while.  I've already tested Mr Chops's skin - a little on the thin side! I've also had a claw at Stephan and Emily, and of course can't wait to engage my talons in the soft hides of Bob and Jim. Yours, on the other hand ... ... and where's Jennifer. M |
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BROTHER JOHN Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386 |
Dear Brad, I am not after anyone. Lol. Let me explain some of the thinking of existentalism. First, all one has is his existence. There is no ultimate authority above him or her except what they decide. However, authoritve figures quickly begin making decisions for the individual. This is age old. The bottom line for the ancient Greeks was fate. Even the gods had to yield to fate. The heroes of mythology revolted against their fate. But in the end they lost. But the revolt still made them heroes. Sysyphus was fated by Zues to ever roll the stone up the hill. He was Zues'prey or fate's. What I was trying to say at this point, those about us have been rolling the stone because others before had taught them to roll the stone etc. Everyone is a prey to the past. The existentialist says that these heroes made authentic decisions even though they were fated. Now with that in mind, the first authentic decision that a person makes is to decide who runs their life. This decision is costly in that now the person takes full responsibility and even the consequences of his or her's decision. But they are authentic because they made the decision and no one else, not even God or fate. It now stops with them and he or she can point no finger, except to self. But they are an authentic person for no one tells them what to do except the authorities they willingly yield to. Traditionalism is not exempted. My feeble try in the poem was to show we need to own our own lives and not let others live their lives through us. The "higher self" calls us from the slavery of traditionalism, family members who try to relive their lives through us or even religious institutions and even ancient lore that is relived again and again through us. On this last one, Jung's psychology draws on this very strongly. I see now that a sonnet is too short to deal with this. I am trying to rewrite it but it is more clear to me why Moonbeam had problems. That is why I said that the trash may be the best place for this one. I hope this makes sense. BJ PS The Greeks had a word for hope which only meant, expect things to continue as they are. Only the well off wanted this. However the masses were enslaved to the powers that be. Here is where the Hebrew and Christian concept of hope was defined differently. The ultimate God created new beginnings and offerd salvation from pagan fatalism. Hope in this context was a door of freedom for the enslaved ones. This is the reason Christianity spred quickly within the ranks of the masses of the Roman world. BJ [This message has been edited by BROTHER JOHN (08-05-2008 09:15 PM).] |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
quote: She has a thread in The Alley. |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
Hi Brad, I heard you were dead and I gave a quarter for flowers ; but it’s real good to see that you popped back up. ( no pun intended ) |
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BROTHER JOHN Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386 |
Dear Moonbeam, I wrestled with this poem and plot nearly all of yesterday. Last night an image formed in my mind of a papier mache` figure as a dictator. I lived with this image and rewrote the poem in story form. I am sure you have read my short infomation to Brad on existentalism and how it is linked to Greek mythology etc. This story embodies some of what I was trying to say. I am working now on translating it into sonnet form. I hope it will carry my thoughts better than my clumsy poem of yesterday. I never dream a storm would ensue and I made a bad existental decision in my rude remarks to you. I do think a rewrite will give a better starting point. I will try to post it by noon, USA time. My poems, like me, are always under construction. I have rewritten some over a hunderd times and see still room for improvement . Have a blessed day. BY |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Thanks Ess, no wonder she's gone so quiet, I had no idea she was a secret late runner for President with Grinch as vice. (Vice President I mean). It seems that only the Dark Song of the balladeer can stop them ruling the world. BJ No problemo. Yes I read your stuff to Brad, and I think you are doing a really good thing writing it out in prose form first. It helps to get your thoughts and arguments straight. Also, don't think of it as a "storm", or if you have to, think of it as the sort of storm that clears away the dross and gives room for new and better things to grow. M |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Grinch for VP? |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Mwahhhh to Grinch with batted eyelashes and promises of full support in the campaign. |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
I'm don't know - me hillbilly - nobody talk. |
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BROTHER JOHN Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386 |
Dear Moonbeam, It appears that both are duds. I went to open poetry and reread most of my poems posted there. I saw one, "To Thy Self Be True." It is written in the same matter as the one I wrote entitled, "Athenticity." That one is a little better. There are problems I admit. It offers a better base to critique than the two I have set forth. I know you are busy and have spend much time with me, but a new favor I ask from you. Would you read this poem posted in open poetry many months ago and see if it worthy of constructive remarks. Thank you. BJ |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: But BJ, I thought you were going to post another new one here? M |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
“But BJ, I thought you were going to post another new one here?” I agree, please post a new one. I have no patience,either you post a new one or I will and you know how Moonbeam feels about my poetry. Come on noon. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
BJ You might be interested in this page: http://www.spl.org.uk/best-poems/003.htm The poem is short, contemporary, and for me at least, packs more of a punch than any number of sonnets (no offence to yours specifically ), written in the style of the past.Look at those sparklingly fresh images! The author's notes are interesting too. Best. M |
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