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Commettere Peccato [To Commit a Sin]
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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Commettere Peccato [To Commit a Sin] |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart 
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Commettere Peccato [To Commit a Sin] Odd dark hours scatter mindful particles so quiet thoughts travel wildly, while invisible fingers reach for inexplicable gratification, and I seem to fly on winds as a munificent voice whispers yet in other tongues where’er I go, when I seek thee in …Luxuria [ Lust] For were you to lay your finger upon my cheek, then draw it where you will, speaking naught of what you wish but allowing me, only, to read the lines surrounding your eyes, there would need be one word uttered… Timshel …Gula [Gluttony] Now before you lay this glorious feast: Life! Sample well these magnificent wellsprings, joyous deep valleys, breathless arcing summits, deserts where dates are blessed plentiful, and all that resides between dark desire and white contentment is but one whisper… Timshel …Avaritia [Greed] And if I take each gift from you, your thought, gesture, smile, touch, sensation and box it up, each and every one, to pile the boxes here within my soul, to peer into, take out of; to stroke and remember, wanting even more, would you add yet more to the boxes before you leave? Timshel …Acedia [Sloth] Stumbling, afraid, as discontent and doubt winds itself like strangling ivy ‘round these ankles, its tendrils clinging avariciously, dragging sadness into my soul, teetering now on this loathsome brink of ne’erwell, fearing not that you will leave, but that this shell of failure will ever be good enough for your love, yet you declare unto me… Timshel …Ira [Wrath] Honesty needed to prevail, but any attempt to share this long hidden shroud of hatred toward him were dismissed by you, for you knew the perversion of loss over grief after such unequivocal love freely given, so that such a suicidal act of honesty, so bitterly tasted, so mindfully distorted – such sting of pain without gain; yet rather than allow any unleashing, withheld… Timshel …Invidia [Envy] As if my hands were tied, my tongue removed, to only believe I might watch as others pour their glorious talents across the world, jealously mindful of being a lesser vessel of knowledge and import, insignificant in my own sight; yet you sing to me, Timshel …Superbia [Pride] You know my lines, my sins, my confessions, yet without fault nor shame, lend to me your finesse as gifts, sheltering me before suggesting I go naked into the light, already aware that this is the worst, yet least of my sins, that I might dance closer to the edge and through the dance, you still whisper Timshel You tremble now. I feel it in your arms. You see too deeply into these eyes, and are you wishing you knew less of more? Yet, more is all I have to offer you; this, and honesty, and I would beg of you forgive me, please but we, you and I, know your own misgivings of yourself; I shake my head, knowing your more is and all you give, knowing you believe me compleat but not without you. Now, please, lay your head in my lap… knowing we will go on as we bless one another, Timshel © April 14, 2008 KRJ |
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| © Copyright 2008 Karilea Rilling Jungel - All Rights Reserved | |||
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kayjay Member Elite
since 2002-06-24
Posts 2015Oregon |
My goodness sake's, Karilea, you were in your stride when you penned this lovely piece. As always, it is a pleasure to read you and hear the rhythm of your mind. KJ Through rubble and trouble and dark of night |
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Seoulair Senior Member
since 2008-03-27
Posts 807Seoul S.Korea |
I like this poem. And I can sense your soft voice even when you talked about the Seven Deadly Sins. Odd dark hours scatter mindful particles so quiet thoughts travel wildly, while invisible fingers reach for inexplicable gratification, and I seem to fly on winds as a munificent voice whispers yet in other tongues where’er I go, when I seek thee in When is Odd dark hours? Whose quiet thoughts? What is invisible fingers...desire of heart? Who is "I"? ...the true self or the sinning-self? Who is "other"? is the name that the self-righteous self calls the sinning-self? Who is "thee"... is it the gratification? My first comment.  Love you.  You are the kindest and the most patient lady. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Kim, Thank you so much for your kind words. I hope to be able to answer your questions fully. When is Odd dark hours? For me, “odd dark hours” are those interminable moments between dream and reality, and I [the writer, and/or the reader] usually want to assail myself back into the dream that is almost lost to me if I chance to peer at the clock – a mental fight with “what time is it” and “who cares…” [P.S. – I dream WAY too much…] Whose quiet thoughts? This is going to answer some of the other questions below. If I, as the poet, have done my writing correctly, so that “you” the reader fall into the patter of the heart beat of the poem, then “I” can be “you” the reader. So hopefully, as you read this, the quiet thoughts become yours. What is invisible fingers...desire of heart? The “invisible fingers” go back to the “odd dark hours”…and the reach back for the dream, mentally encompassed, with the “invisible fingers” being utilized to regain the dream in the “odd dark hours”. [Oh, I hope you’re smiling at this…] Who is "I"? ...the true self or the sinning-self? Good question. As the reader, whom do you wish “I” to be? As you read through the rest of the poem, is the person “I” in this poem really sinning? Or does the person just think they are? A lot of this will depend, I think, on how you view yourself, if indeed you put yourself in here as the reader – do any of the “sins” seem familiar? Who is "other"? is the name that the self-righteous self calls the sinning-self? quote: This is another very good question. First of all, you must know that this poem stems from a challenge by one of our foremost and beloved poets at PiP. Actually, it all started with another poem, “Timshel”, in the Open Forum #42, and she pushed and prodded me into exploring how to use the Hebrew with the English as other languages, and for some inexplicable reason, I had to insert some Latin in there as well. Hence, "other tongues" being what is heard. Who is "thee"... is it the gratification? “Thee”, for me, is the person to whom the reader might share these thoughts with. ~*~ Does any of this help? Thanks for the push. I rarely go back to my own poetry and dissect it. Perhaps that will be the next lesson I will take to our poetry group. Kim, you’ve been a boon to me in helping me learn more about why I wrote this as I did. Thank you! |
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Seoulair Senior Member
since 2008-03-27
Posts 807Seoul S.Korea |
Thank you very much Sunshine Lady. I try to find a way to read it "correctly". I try to see if It could be read as a preach, a confession and a self-talking, or a talk to the personified sin. The first word Odd has a sense of anchor point. Dark hour is all bad time in any religion. But odd is something different. Thank you again. I will continue my reading (it is CA. ) |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
And there we are, Kim, talking across the world and trying to understand one another, which is what it is all about! I was advised "not to sound preachy" and it was a very difficult task to not do so. VERY difficult. The "sunshiney" side of me always wants to see good in everything. It is usually very difficult for me to think darkly. Not to say that dark matters don't cross my path, they do - but to dwell there is, again, a choice that people make. My "timshel" lives in light.  Thank you for your time! |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Well, I think this is quite clever, conceptually. I like this as both prayer and meditation, even with the sensual slant, as you've included Catholic Christianity with the Hebraic answer of "Timshel". Then there is just the word "sin" which is, I believe of Greek origen, and if this is a combination of ritual and physical union, then you've got some mystery religion rites as well. That makes for one all-inclusive poem. The soft tone of it works better for me, as my preference for a God would be a loving God, and the Timshel between each of the seven sins serves as a reminder of the gift of free will. (Now I'm getting dangerously close to turning this into an "issue-oriented reply, so all those who would disagree with my take on the poem, please resist the temptation to start the discussion HERE--I am addressing the poem, and would hope that others follow suit. This isn't the place to discuss religious issues, k?) I find it interesting that the poem is so sensuous? Sensuality makes it personal, which indicates a personal relationship, with God or not. I think I do need to read this one again and again though. I'm not certain at this point if I'm reading too much into it, or not enough. That's intriguing and a good thing. I hope to be back. (note "hope"--I've promised others before that I would be back and didn't return because some of these poems I'd have to write a thesis to discuss 'em properly, so my apologies to those that have waited for me for naught. Yep. Intriguing write, Kunshine. *laughing* I hope that doesn't stick. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
This is excellent feedback, and highly appreciated, serenity. "Kunshine"...hmmm, it just might. Stick, that is. Thanks for the push. My muse needed to be told she wasn't always needed, not when there's serenity in my life. |
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Seoulair Senior Member
since 2008-03-27
Posts 807Seoul S.Korea |
…Luxuria [ Lust] For were you to lay your finger upon my cheek, then draw it where you will, speaking naught of what you wish but allowing me, only, to read the lines surrounding your eyes, there would need be one word uttered… There is an "I" as in my You...the lust allow...yield to lust read my own eye (tempted to look at it) lines surrounding your eyes experience, sophistication, mature, strong attraction of the lust. Here I, the person and lust, the personal desire are separated. Lust became the temptation of the spirit. Interesting way to say it. |
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Seoulair Senior Member
since 2008-03-27
Posts 807Seoul S.Korea |
…Gula [Gluttony] Now before you lay this glorious feast: Life! Sample well these magnificent wellsprings, joyous deep valleys, breathless arcing summits, deserts where dates are blessed plentiful, and all that resides between dark desire and white contentment is but one whisper… very soft on Gluttony. Almost become praising of life. It is beautiful though. …Avaritia [Greed] And if I take each gift from you, your thought, gesture, smile, touch, sensation and box it up, each and every one, to pile the boxes here within my soul, to peer into, take out of; to stroke and remember, wanting even more, would you add yet more to the boxes before you leave? love this one and I liked the word box. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Kim, thank you ever so much for coming back to this post. I had an interruption in life, as we had to lay our wonderful pet/friend/boss of our house down today. I'm sorry I did not get back to your last interception of this poem. Your first response seems to only give your thoughts. We will go on to the second post. There was a time in my life where I ate healthy when healthy wasn't even a key word in one's life style. I grew up in California before California was "cool" and as a family of five and six people over time, with a bare minimum budget, we ate what was available on a limited income. I only knew "gluttony" as people who could partake in the more joyous gestures of one's eating anything, anytime, anywhere. At the age of my experience, I didn't realize then that sloth nor greed could also be a very part of gluttony. Oh, life does teach some wonderful lessons. As for greed, that again pushed a fine line. I do not think of myself as a greedy person; I've given a lot up for others; I'm not a true "clothes horse" in the idea of those who have to shop every other weekend; I am totally appreciative of those who give of their time [did I mention this was a hard poem to write?] so I had to think of greed as one who might only take, but with some reason for doing so, without a true blame. I could not see myself as doing otherwise. So if I were to take, in whole, someone's heart...or gestures, in this case, and box them greedily, to keep them unto myself, then that is as much "greed" as this poem could get. Were I to step outside this shell that I inhabit for the moment, I cannot honestly answer how the poem might be re-written; all I know of myself is me, and I will honestly say here and now, I'm afraid I don't know "me" as well as some other poets might have me pin-pointed like a butterfly to a canvas. Truth is, I've gone a few decades without self-examination, and here, this site, is where some of that has come into being. Thank you, Kim...for all of your help in getting me to understand why and how this poem came to be. Without you and serenity, I doubt it would have ever been. |
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Seoulair Senior Member
since 2008-03-27
Posts 807Seoul S.Korea |
Dear Lady, I am sorry for your loss. Back to the poem. I indeed thought that you wrote in a very soft tuned was because you, yourself has been a very kind person so you might have not experienced those sins (how nice!!). Don't re-write. Unless Brad wants you to do it. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Thank you, Kim. We'll await Brad's approach. And yes, our Abby was a very special part of my life. The house is very empty of her presence. Look up Abby in the archives...you'll see a lovely being. |
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ilsm Member
since 2008-04-13
Posts 61UK |
I did try to post a comment on this earlier, but my ‘puter threw a wobbly and I lost everything … even after all these years using a computer, I still forget to save every few minutes … I think the idea behind the poem is a good one, and the approach you have adopted is highly original. I see it as a series of meditations, more about love and sensuality than sin. I was able to cope with the Latin, but “timshel” was new and thank-you for teaching me it. Parts of it were very readable, but others were difficult, and I haven’t even yet understood them. But despite this, I loved the poem and what it was about. Thank-you. Lust: this was vivid and seductive. The best part of the whole piece. Gluttony: food as a metaphor for life: let life be enjoyed as much as the most sumptuous feast. Greed: to me, this reads more like wistful reminiscences than avarice. Beautifully written, but it portrays greed as tender emotions treasured in your heart rather than possessed in sin. Sloth: indolence, or self-doubt? Wrath: I struggled hard with this. In particular what do the words “but any attempt to share this long hidden shroud of hatred toward him were dismissed by you” mean? Did you mean “would be dismissed” or “had been dismissed”? And the words “yet rather than allow any unleashing” also deflected me. I did find the anger in this verse eventually – after finding “hate” first – but for some reason, hate isn’t as bad a sin as anger, is it? Then I thought, Change “were” to “was” or “would be”, change the semi-colon in the penultimate line to a comma, and drop the word “yet” and it’s much clearer (to me at least!). Envy is very well-written – although I would have omitted the word “jealousy” to make the allusion to envy more subtle (ALWAYS ASSUMING, that is, I could have even begun a work as good as this). Pride: again, the way your write it, it doesn’t seem so bad a sin … maybe that’s why it’s deadly. That deals with the sins. As for the beginning and the end, it is these that tell me this isn’t a prayer to the Divine, but a hymn of love to one who is divine in a more mundane sense. It’s a lovely poem and I have spent hours reading it. (I don’t think that, other than John Donne’s “A Hymn to God the Father”, I have studied a single poem as much – except as a schoolboy in English Lit classes, of course, but that wasn’t voluntary!) Thanks. ILSM |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Wow! Ilsm, thank you for your wonderful comments. I don’t think I’ve had anyone study a poem of mine with the fervor that you’ve put into it. This was indeed a “work” for me. My biggest concern is that I was raised in such a way that the seven deadly sins were and are not great companions of mine. Yet we cannot go through life and escape their pull, so I had to go back to times when I “felt” or had seen such – and that’s why you probably had questions on a number of them. We write from what we know – and I don’t know a lot about all seven. So I had to do a lot of studying – truly. The lust stanza was also in my “Timshel” poem. That was the drawing card for one of our members to push me into going forward with that stanza as the beginning. Gluttony. It would be very easy to point to anyone who uses food as “comfort over pain” or “food for food’s sake” or “I lived through the depression when I didn’t have enough to eat – I’m making up for it now!” I know these people. But I am not those people. So gluttony became life – we can take up life and know that it has its good and bad points – hence the last lines “dark desire and white contentment” as being all of the good and bad life has to offer us and know that whatever we take from it, is allowed [Timshel], and we are a glutton of life if we don’t heed any warnings. [Think global warming]. I didn’t work with Greed well enough to even suit my satisfaction, but the best I could do and in keeping with the poet’s request to “keep it all sensual” this was the best my poor mind could offer. [I won’t even bring in my muse, as she was nowhere to be found when I worked on this poem.] But Greed could be to only be a “taker” of gifts, whether tangible or not, and boxing them up as memories, and want only more, would the giver of such gifts want to continue to give more with some kind of generous act in kind? I’m afraid I’ll have to rework that one so that it’s better laid out on paper. Sometimes my mind knows what it wants to put down, but the all of it doesn’t get there. Sloth: Aversion to work or exertion; laziness; indolence. [American Heritage Dictionary]. Further reference guides to sloth will show you that it can lead to depression, which leads then to feelings of unworthiness, etc. A huge circle of despair. Wrath was probably the most difficult of all to write, let alone read. In this, the speaker feels the need to be honest about their anger, but the person to whom s/he is speaking is guided by his/her own past anger, knows it doesn’t solve anything, so basically says “you don’t need to unleash your anger, it’s “allowed” by “timshel” but the receiver doesn’t want to hear it, and withholds the word “Timshel”, so no release of anger need be given. Boy, that probably doesn’t make any sense, but it did to me when I was writing it. I’ll have to work on this one, too. Keeping in mind as I was doing research, one sin would invariable seem to lead to the acknowledgement or similarity to or of other sins. I had several resources I was utilizing as I wrote out [and rode out] this challenge. I think Envy and Pride are two of most widely recognized sins that any one person knows from time to time. I also think at times the two of them walk the world hand in hand, wondering who to attack now. So you did, indeed, recognize this that while they might not seem so deadly? They can work the worst of their talents on the best of people.Again, you’re on target with the prayer to a person. Not a “godly” person, just flesh and bone, but one for whom the writer wants to clarify their needs, ask for the reader’s allowance or permission to be this or that, while questioning “am I sinning”, and receiving acceptance in the form of “thou mayest”. [But as was noted, Wrath didn’t receive that blessing.] Ilsm, thank you again for your time and readings on this piece. Your questions were very good, and have opened my mind as to how best to not only rework this piece, but that which I will keep in mind on future poems that I place into the Critical Analysis forum. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I haven't been ignoring this. I just haven't had time to look at it seriously. I have it in my wp now and will try to some time into it. Please have patience. I do think it is worth the time. (Even if nobody is actually going to read the dry essay to come. ) |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Brad, I've learned to take the good with the bad. Whatever you may share may be dry, but it was for all intents and purposes written because serenity pushed and poked and prodded me into doing so. It's going to be my "learn to listen, listen to lesson" poem. But be a little kind. Some parts of me are still uniquely fragile, so I will bring a huge chunk of salt to cure my wounds in case you bite really hard on some particular paragraph. OK? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: [To Commit a Sin] This is the first thing I noticed. You're using a foreign language but immediately proceed to translate it. Why? I'm not saying that you shouldn't translate but why not put it at the end of the poem or in another post? Poems, at least for me, are still an aural medium and so I assume, rightly or wrongly, that you chose the language at least partially for the sound. If so, doesn't an immediate translation interfere with that sound? It doesn't have to, it could be integral to the poem itself. But I don't see it here as integral. Am I wrong? quote: I thought this first line was great. quote: Do you really need that 'so'? I immediately ask where are these thoughts going. You've set me up for this with the first line, thoughts as particles going somewhere. I am hooked, you've got me. But since you have me, I am thrown off kilter by the sudden shift: quote: I don't see this or rather I see the fingers but can't get a clear picture of inexplicable gratification. It could be many things, it could be grasping at air. This early in a long poem, this is not a problem, maybe you're holding back, building up to a punch line, but it is disconcerting. Being disconcerted and disappointed that you didn't stick with the 'mindful particles' leads us to another change: quote: Flying on winds? Italian? Sin? Hey, we are in the second circle of Hell. This is great, not least because I alluded to Dante in Aldo. It goes further: 'whispers yet in other tongues', 'thee,''where'er.' Certain aspects of this poem are starting to make sense. But at the same time, this creates a dilemma. What I think you've set up here, the promise to the reader, is that this is going to be a long, epic poem. Many of the images that you've merely touched on will be expanded later. If not, if that's not what you were planning (and I don't think that's what you were going for to be honest), I would suggest that this first stanza/strophe (I don't care which word you use) be expanded. I want to see more of this. The other idea and this is something that I'd really like to see is that you set this up as a mock translation, maybe with an introduction explaining some of the translation problems you had or why you made some of the stylistic choices you've made. Masks upon masks. I don't know if you have the time to do this. For all I know you're done with this piece and want to move on, but I would urge you to reconsider. Yes, it might take a long time ― little steps, little steps ― but what I see with this first stanza is tremendous potential, not to write an important poem, but to have so much fun writing an important poem. Does that make any sense? |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
It all makes a great deal of sense, Brad. This was a very hard challenge proposed to me by Serenity. She seemed satisfied with the results - that's one person - but I can see where this could be an epic sort of poem, but good grief, Dante? [Insert huge grin here]. That's probably the challenge I need. I'll come back to respond to your questions and see if I can answer them before I begin a rewrite. Thank you, m'friend! |
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ilsm Member
since 2008-04-13
Posts 61UK |
I thought long and hard before I alluded to Donne. Was I being too generous with my praise? But now Dante! You have really got something here, Sunshine ... and it appeals to both Protestants and Catholics!! lol. |
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