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Harvest
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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Harvest |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
A future poppy field turned sea of dead Where no plant puts its head above the mud, Bars and stars picked out in hues of red As if to mark each poppies' place in blood. Where no plant puts its head above the mud The mustard killer creeps without a sound, As if to mark each poppies' place in blood It grips the lungs and plants you in the ground. The mustard killer creeps without a sound Bright medals lie just targets on a pin, It grips the lungs and plants you in the ground, For all this pain and death what do we win? Bright medals lie just targets on a pin, Bars and stars picked out in hues of red, For all this pain and death what do we win? A future poppy field turned sea of dead. [This message has been edited by Grinch (12-26-2007 03:47 PM).] |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Well executed pantoum Grinch. Not an easy form to tackle. Somehow yours seems so subtle as to almost disguise itself or its form, that is. I want to tie it to WWII due to the mustard reference but the poppy fields don't seem right. Or could it be that mustard was in use longer than I remember? Oh well, I'm sure my meager knowledge of history is what's at the root of my problem and someone more knowledgeable will set it all straight ere long. Thanks, Pete |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: This is a nice Christmas present Pete and very much appreciated. I’ll refrain from giving away the specific place and date, but for anyone who likes solving mysteries I will say that the date is very specific. So much so that anyone who does get it deserves a virtual $10 prize (Canadian of course), the clues are out there, someone will be on the money I’m sure. |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
Hi grench, this is very clever. Maybe you don’t realize it, but your poem could lead to two dates and places. Does the date December 8 and the name John mean anything ? Great poem and riddle. Btw, give my 10 dollars to the Salvation Army Note: An interesting fact is that John threw it away. A friend of his picked it up. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I’m impressed Chop. The Canadian ten dollar bill was more of a clue than an actual prize but I’m so impressed that you got it so quick I’ll round it up to £10 and donate it as you requested. |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
Thank you Grinch for the donation. You took me back to grade school and thanks for that too. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Grinch, I don't know much about pantoums. I do know that the form here is unobtrusive and beautifully done, deserving of serious self congratulations. Accept mine as well. Mustard Gas, I assume you mean. I assume you mean The Great War. The Poppy field probably ties in to Flanders. I wish I were as historically with it as chopsticks, but I'm not. I know you have to juggle several refrain lines here, and that their form is rigid. I think you want to work in the reference to "In Flanders' Fields" and to peg the references to WWI down firmly and have made a conscious decision to use "future" directly before 'Poppy" in lines one and twenty. To my ear, "future" sounds like an inorganic grafting that hasn't taken. The purposes for it being there are all clear, mind you. I don't feel it works. Try reading it aloud into a tape player or to a friend or two and see what happens when you listen to it in those contexts. You may have a different take than I do. I'd like to hear. Where no plant puts its head above the mud—— Nice vowels, nice rhythm and movement there. Might there be a specific one syllable "plant" of sufficient interest and visual appeal to be worth the sacrifice of the alliteration with the "p" in "put." Or might such a plant—a rose, say, though I don't know the exact time of year the way you do and so don't know that a rose might work—supply an interesting enough initial consonant to tease you into alliterating with a slightly more assertive verb. Perhaps the clearly inferior— Where no rose runs fresh buds above the mud. "Bars and Stars" and "Stars and Bars" I have from time to time heard as descriptors for the Confederate flag, often enough to give me a moment of confusion here in line three. Perhaps it's because I went rose-happy in line two that it crossed my mind to wonder about the design, whatever you decide it should be, might not be somehow more clearly visualized if it weren't "picked out" so much as "pricked out." "As if" is a phrase that's always looked funny to me. I confess it's a clearly acceptable, perfectly useful phrase, but it's always made me uneasy. I don't ask you to change it; really there no need to, but I always look for some way around it in my own stuff. Superstition, I think, on my part. "Creeps" for mustard gas—the mustard killer, as you have it—seems a little off. You've personified the substance. Sometimes this makes things a bit more frightening ("He is evil incarnate!") and sometimes it makes something abstractly terrible into a concrete thing. In this case I fear you've made the evil more managable. "Seeps?" "flows?" "glides?" If it "grips" the lungs, it's got hands. If "it plants you in the ground", it's a farmer. You don't actually literally mean any of these things, but you've lost control of your process of personification, and all by itself, it's taken the horrible process of drowning in your own serum and blood fluids and begun the process of mastering it that goes on usually in a more visual fashion in the imagry of dreams. You as a poet want to be clear about how terrible this kind of death is, your unconscious is trying to master it at the same time. Both show up in your langauge. (everybody's language, not just yours. It's simply that it's become a problem that might be interesting to look at here, to gain a little extra control over the poem. Awareness of this stuff comes and goes.) I also wonder if the line might not be broken up to shake up the rhythm a bit: It grips the lungs. It plants you in the ground. Bright medals lie just targets on a pin— I don't actually follow this. If I don't, it's possible that other well meaning readers may not as well. The word "just" near as I can tell is simply a place filler in poetry. As far as actual sense goes, it can almost always be omitted. This came as a rude shock me when it pointed out to me, and I refused to believe it for years. I know that Pantoums are supposed to be exact. I've quarreled already with "future" in lines 1 and 20. It may or may not work to change the last word of the poem to "dread." Heaven knows there are a boat load of reasons not to. Grinch. Don't get me wrong. I really like this poem. All the changes or variations I've suggested have been concrete ones, to be taken or not. This is still a very good piece of work and I'm happy to see it. Thanks. BobK. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Bob, I appreciate the time you’ve taken on this, the comments and advice you’ve offered are all valid and relevant, but now I’m on the horns of a dilemma, a position I think most posters to this forum find themselves in from time to time. My dilemma is whether to argue why most of your points aren’t relevant within the context of this poem or whether it’s better to simply offer the default response thanking you for your comments and then simply disregard the comments offered. The first option has its dangers, I’d end up sounding as if my poem is sacrosanct and untouchable, that I’m using this forum simply as a showcase without any intention of taking the advice offered and am willing to defend it at all costs. Neither of which is true, in fact my own thoughts are that the second option is the obvious and easiest choice if that were the case. If I take the second option however I think one of the reasons why this forum exists is lost, taking that option stifles discussion and the free flow of ideas and opinions that expand everyone’s understanding of poetry. There’s another danger associated with the second option, eventually the people offering the critiques get tired of receiving little or no feedback and drift off looking for more interaction. So which option do I take? Being an inveterate coward I’m going to hold onto the horns for as long as I can in the hope that someone makes the decision for me.  |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Grinch, Don't have to take my feedback. Seeing that you've actually thought about it and understand what I'm saying is all I want. I want to engage with the poem as seriously as the poet seems to be, especially if I feel the poet is serious about what they're doing. This happens to be a poem I admire. I've found that I've learned most not from taking anybody's specific advice about a specific issue in a specific poem, but by listening to what they have to say about a bunch of poems, poems by myself and others as well, so I can get some notion about their theory of revision and writing in general. I may not get so much from a single piece of feedback, may use it or not, but I get some sort of a notion of What Joe Might Say built up in my head over time. In the end, I've got a little committee of consultants, people whose work I like or whose criticism I've found helpful over time, and I can use my consultants when I run into a jam occasionally when I'm revising. For you to take my advice on any single thing would probably be a mistake. For you to have an example of someone who likes poetry and is a pretty good reader of it and is willing to share his thoughts with you about yours is of value, especially if the point of view is one that you find useful over time. It takes a lot of time to know that sometimes. In the meantime, simply knowing that you actually think about what I have to say is more than fine with me. Thanks for your note in response, BobK. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Yes, that's pretty much how I see it as well. It's not the specific advice that matters, it's the time and effort one puts into a poem. The crit itself, the process, is only helpful in the long run, but I also think that critting helps the critter more than the crittee. Grinch, So, when are you going to grow a pair?  |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi Grinch! So odd, the connections poems and people make! And so wonderful when it happens! This one made a powerful emotional connection for me that I might never have made in its absence. My journey with the poem starts with Flanders Fields, a poem I know and love, then moves to the red paper poppies with green tissue wrapped wire stems, worn by WWI veterans and civilians alike, to honor both the living and the dead. I am taken back in time, to the fifties, standing at the curbside with my family, hand on heart, not knowing why, as bands and veterans’ groups paraded past. Then forward, 1960, as my grandfather played harmonica and drank his beer while dying in our hospice/dining room. Forgotten, until I read this poem, he had been gassed in WWI, discharged early, or just a little late. Then the family tales came back, and in a waking dream state, I was there in life with all my family members who have passed, a cherished gift this poem has given me. In present time, I realized why Jacques Brel’s song, “Marike,” I believe, with its reference to Flanders Fields, had always moved me so. I had not made the connection before. I respond in this not particularly critiquing post, because you have mentioned in a previous thread, maybe months ago, that it interested you that people in this forum infrequently respond to poems with personal reflections. (And yes, indeed, I read and remember what is said here.) So these are comments on how the poem affected a reader, what it brought and what it opened up, remarks from “life experience” as opposed to “poetic experience.” Thank you, Jim Aitken |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Grinch, See response to Huan Ye, 11/3. I'm working on a revision. It's clearly too stilted, and some of the word order needs revision, etc. Thoughts? Also I'm thinking of posting a poem I've been working on for a very long time whose ending has always evaded me. I'll probably be back in about a week. Oceanvu2 has a fantastic poem posted, Picnic in Jutland. I'm really excited. The two of you are really cooking with gas. My best, BobK. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Ok I grew some so here’s the background to my defence: This poem is a bit of a failure in that originally it started out as a poem about the Accrington Pals and the part they played in WWI, a poem I’ve wanted to write for a long time and will probably get around to at some point . While researching that poem however I came across the 3 battles that took place at Ypres, also known as Paschendale or Flanders and I got sidetracked. There are several facts associated with Flanders that drew this poem off-track, the first is that the end of the first battle of Flanders was the cut off point after which the Star of Mons (a campaign medal) was discontinued. The second was that it was the site of the Canadian forces first major engagement - the Canadian John Mcrae’s poem ‘In Flanders field’ was written on May 3rd 1915 during the second battle of Ypres. The third fact that caught my attention was that it was the first use of gas on the western front, granted it was chlorine rather than mustard but mustard seemed more in keeping with the floral theme so I used a little poetic licence. The main fact that struck me however was that the Flanders was the site of three major battles, it seemed to sum up the static nature of trench warfare and emphasised, at least for me, mans almost suicidal nature when it came to repeating past mistakes. The poem was written against that background information, I chose the Pantoum form because of the repetition which seemed to fit well with the deja vue nature of the three battles. I like to think Mcrae used the rondaeu with its repetitive end rhyme for the same reason but that may be wishful thinking on my part. quote: Absoloutely quote: The poem was set in the third battle of Ypres, “future poppy field” is both a reference to the fact that the battle field is going to be a poppy field again and also that it’s going to witness another battle. quote: Possible, but it doesn’t fit the poppy\battle theme very well, although I have to give you credit for spotting the problem with the word “plant”. I originally wanted to use maple to touch on the Canadian connection but changed it due to the syllable count. I think I’ll go back to my previous choice which was “leaf”. quote: Think medals - the star of Mons I’ve already mentioned, bars is a reference to a double medal recipient, if you earn a DSO you get the medal, if you earn a second you get a bar that attaches to the ribbon. So bars and stars are recipiants who’ve been there before. quote: Creeping was a good tactic for anything that moved on the western front, I also read an account where a soldier said that he could put up with the artillery and the snipers but the thought of gas gave him the creeps. You may have noticed by now I like multiple meanings. quote: People are gripped by lots of things, death and fear come to mind and both of them are handless. Plant you in the ground is also a metaphor for burial. It grips the lungs. It plants you in the ground. Can’t argue here. Bright medals lie just targets on a pin The “lie” is meant in both possible ways, the Mons Star was a campaign medal, if you were there you got one, it didn’t signify or guarantee bravery on the part of the recipient which is the normal expectation where winning a medal is concerned. In this case I wanted to inject the reality of fear, that the medals lied. They also lay on pins and the wearer was a target. Pins are also used on HQ maps and “just pins“ are the opposite of “unjust pins“. quote: It could be a filler but poetry, especially metrical forms are full of fillers - words that have been added simply to fit the metrical pattern. While it’s true they can be omitted without the loss of sense their omission plays havoc with the meter. quote: Good point. Now that I’ve built my defence I’m going to deconstruct it. Are all the explanations I’ve given worth anything if the reader doesn’t recognise them? I mean if I have to explain them in detail haven’t I failed in the original poem? Well yes and no, it all comes back to my conversations with Jim regarding readers using life experience to interpret poems. It doesn’t matter if every reader doesn’t get every reference, you might get one, Jim could get another and Brad a third. It doesn’t matter if you all get a completely different interpretation or, as Jim has demonstrated, are just reminded of something from there past. What is important is that I know I’ve taken the time and if I’ve taken enough time it’ll hopefully show and the poem will have at least some merit to someone reading it. Thanks again Bob you have got me thinking about a couple of possible changes so you haven’t completely wasted your time. Jim, Two words - THANK YOU Brad, My wife says she wants them back once I’ve finished with them. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
I love to read pantoum because it takes my heart to a vacuum tube. I have read this poem many times, Just to feel it. I have absolutely no clue on what it was about. So I was waiting for some one to go through it verse by verse. Now, Grinch, thank you for the background. Plus other people's comments, at lease I can enjoy more of the reading. Thank you Grinch. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Grinch, I too thank you. Everything you said made perfect sense. Certainly you could happily leave the poem as is. Keep on plugging. All my best, BobK. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Mr. Grinch: Liked the pantoum. I think you've pulled this off pretty well without having to force the repeated lines. This form has always been a tough one for me, and I admire the work you've obviously put into this. A few general comments ... I think the caps at the beginning of each line are unnecessary. I've found (over time) that capitalizing the beginning of each line (rather than the beginning of each sentence) makes it difficult for new readers to break the habit of reading each line as a sentence. I suppose the question I'd ask you is whether you are capitalizing the first letter of each line because that is the way it has always been done or because that makes the greatest stylistic sense to you? "Plant puts" ... I'm wondering if there is another way to say this? The sound seems a little off, in contrast to "Bars and stars picked out in hues of red," which is a wonderful line. The mustard gas line ... I'm not sure it fits particularly well, given the other images of "red", "blood", and [blood-wetted] "mud." Reminded me instantly of Wilfred Owen's poem: http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html After re-reading Owen, I'm not sure the mustard gas line fits as well as, for example, a sniper's round might. In fact, the sniper could be a "creeping killer" as well, and this might make the "targets on a pin" line make more sense. Overall, I enjoyed the poem. As I mentioned before, I appreciate the effort involved in written in such a restrictive format. I haven't met many who've done a good job with a poem like this. Nice work. Jim (jbouder) |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Grinch: Another thought occurred to me when reading the poem ... "Flanders Fields." Jim |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: I’m still digesting your first thoughts Jim but fire away if you have more. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Err..yes and yes. I should have left it at that but unfortunately I didn‘t, anyone who doesn’t want to get bored should just skip the next bit. ------------------- What a great question though - “Should the first letter of each line of a poem be capitalised.” I think it depends on a lot of things, one consideration is form, tradition dictates that a sonnet follows the first word capitalisation standard. So it seems reasonable, if you choose to utilise a traditional form, to follow the traditional capitalisation format. A free verse poem however lends itself to standard sentence capitalisation. Being a relatively new form, which by design (or lack of) is an attempt to loosen the perceived shackles of traditional verse, standard sentence capitalisation makes complete sense. So what should the rule be? Oddly enough I believe “the rule” is the root of the problem, traditional verse didn’t have a written rule about capitalisation it was just the way to write poetry at that time. Then along came a new breed of poets who blatantly ignored standard rules of punctuation and capitalisation to emphasis the unconventionality of their art. Poets like E. E. Cummings (oddly he preferred his name to be capitalised) popularised an abandonment of tradition, particularly in the US. Now the tide seems to have turned, the majority seems to have swung towards sentence capitalisation even in traditional forms. So why do I capitalise? There are some flimsy reasons: I’m the minority which now makes me the radical. Some publishers insist on first line capitalisation (for some technical reason that must be to do with format removal and replacement in the publishing process, this isn’t really a valid reason though, based on the fact that I avoid publishers as I would an enraged alligator). Each individual line of a poem is an entity in its own right, if quoted that individuality deserves respect, however the laws of grammar dictate that a line of poetry should be quoted verbatim which would relegate this: Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs, To this: come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs, Which leaves it unclear whether this line from Wilfred Owen was in fact a line or simply an portion of a line or even a quote from a piece of prose. But here is the real reason. I do it or don’t do it depending on the poem, its form or my mood. quote: But here’s the rub Jim, reading poetry in sentence capitalisation allows new readers to merge the lines, making them flow from one to the other while ignoring the line break. If they are encouraged to do that and remove the individual entity of the line they may well confuse or miss the meter of the line. In addition the break or pause, so carefully added by the poet, is in danger of being removed in favour of a smooth flow from one line to the next. Take enjambment for example, when used in metrical or rhymed poetry enjambment is designed to make the poem flow, however the individual metrical unit of the line still needs emphasis, especially for the new readers. Otherwise they’ll crash blindly on without recognising the rhyme reason or meter. To me capitalisation is an ideal notification that one metrical unit has ceased and another is starting. Whew! Please don’t respond - I can’t face chapter two. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Grinch, you could have just said you like doing it that way. Jim |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
I don’t know why but this thread reminds me of a Reagan quote : After the Iceland summit in 1986 Gorbachev walked out to Reagan’s limo as he was leaving for the airport , Gorbachev looked through the window and said, “ What could I have said Mr. President “ Reagan’s reply was “ You could have said yes “ and the Berlin wall came down. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
No way I can touch this, not in form nor in subject. I just wanted to say that I think you are pretty amazing. I think I'll go back to being quiet again. Happy New Year Grinch.  |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Okay, you've had the accolades, let's get down to the nitty gritty. Summarizing for those who don't wish to read any futher: 1. You've chosen the wrong form. 2. You've hampered that form with rhyme and a sonic system that reads like soldiers stomping through a thick knee-deep mud. Let's go with the second point first: 'r' controlled vowels: future, turned, Where, Bars, stars, mark, mustard, killer, targets, For --in a pan poem, do you really want this so much of this sound? Now, I admit, this may just be my Californian accent showing, but even with that softer touch you guys have, do you really want these sounds repeated. It slows everything down. But wait there's more. The rhymes: dead/red||mud/blood||sound/ground||pin/win It's a nice progression, but isn't it a bit of oratorical overkill? There's no reason to rhyme a pantoum (there's also no reason to meter a pan)because the repetition itself creates its own rhythm. But you go further with 'turned', 'plant', and 'pain', (and I'm cutting you some slack with 'field' and 'lungs'-- ng is part of the same group as 'm' and 'n'). But here's the really irritating part: All of this makes sense! All of it matches your theme perfectly. Hell, even the 'p' alliteration makes me think of machine gun fire! So what am I complaining about? The simple fact is that I think you match it so perfectly that the reading itself is slowed down to a crawl. It's not so much tragic or depressing as boring. You need to contrast (I want to say counterpoint but that's not the right word.) the sound with something else to pick up the pace a bit. If you want to rhyme, what about a villanelle or even better a glose? The funniest thing about this crit is that I'm complaining that you wrote it too well. Oh yeah, and I hate that opening/ending line: "A future poppy field turned sea of dead" sea of dead what? |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Sir Brad, rhyme, of course makes it sound better no matter what form the poem is. My thought. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I respecfully disagree, TM. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
rhyme to poem as light to park |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
"A future poppy field turned sea of dead" I knew by the first line that the poet was talking about Flanders field or possibly D day ; so if he had said dead heroes or soldiers, he would have most likely given his plot away, which he didn’t want to do. |
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