Samhain, All Hallow's Eve, All Saint's Day (Three Soliloquies)

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Stephanos

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since 2000-07-31

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Statesboro, GA, USA

0 posted 2007-11-28 03:19 AM

Samhain, All Hallow's Eve, All Saints' Day
(Three Soliloquies)

Song of the Celt

Harvest is dying at winter’s birth
Shall We coax the gods with a song?
The partition of worlds is now sheer
We are right and yet remain wrong
Angels are thronging the stairwell
And what son of man can ensure
their feet be benign and not hateful
holy horrors to dance and endure
They pressed us and so we were given
to a madness as sane as a priest
to offer by candle-light vigils
our desperate and terrible feast
blood was deluged into goblets
that were tarnished with trembling years
And our imagination multiplied
the objects of our fears
Decades flew like autumn leaves
And ghouls rushed like the tide
Sometimes leaving us respite
But always to abide
Till a woman’s seed in Jacob
then a monster set in Rome
impugned our sacred festivals
and drove us from our home
We resisted firm and kept our feast
And as Pagans we would stay
All Hallow’s Eve remained the night
where mischief had its way
But what we kept was darkness still
And specters as real as rain
to fall upon us always
in this harvest moon of pain

Song of the Prophet

Harvest is dying at winter’s birth
How shall we sing the Lord’s song?
In a foreign land it was only mocked
and swallowed up by wrong
They took in name the name we gave
but kept in heart their ways
how fleeting at the point of steel
was the pretense of our praise
Our fiends were hardly better
perhaps only more refined
differing in their given names
but no variance in kind
We feared them in the dark ourselves
Our light we didn’t see
Strewn and trampled in the sand
was the salt we were meant to be
Decades flew like autumn leaves
And cloven a thousand ways
We were driven to lands and lords abroad
like wanderers in a maze
Our holy bread and wine was spurned
for flesh and bitter ale
The prophets sang of lamentation
and wept a pilgrim’s tale
And everywhere it was the same
Our conquests sometimes true
But still so much untouched unchanged
in the good we couldn’t do.
And what we left was darkness still
their demons as real as rain
to fall upon them always
in this harvest moon of pain

Song of the Angel

Why does Jacob so complain
"Our way is cast aside.
We have given birth to only wind
and lost our holy pride?"
His priesthood never was revoked
Even in his lowest state
His words are chained with prophecy
and what the world calls fate
Its a pity that the masks remain
despite the prophets' tears
allurements tossed to children
sweet yet riddled with their fears
Knocking still at strangers doors
For a trick and not a feast
Familiar spirits numb and teach
to dally with the beast
But ever since the Lamb was slain
what happened to the night
not denial but a death to death
constrained the ancient fright
Puritans stood against the dark
And games were made instead
A comic strand was woven
where before was only dread
And whether the world has understood
Her serpent was defanged
Monsters may be teased by men
only since they have been hanged
And though sainthood is ever mocked
by the night of mischief still
The Feast of All Saints Day will come
With the Father’s hallowed will

(I know its after Halloween, but this has been running around in my head for some time)

Stephen.

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (11-28-2007 03:58 AM).]

TomMark
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1 posted 2007-11-28 05:20 PM

This a free verse poem, right?

and I like the repeat of the

"Harvest is dying at winter’s birth" ...were you predicting?

But if the winter were the son of god, why we needed to ask

"Shall We coax the gods with a song?" ?

Tom

I have read twice and I'll read more. (delete those sensitive words

[This message has been edited by TomMark (11-28-2007 11:01 PM).]

Stephanos

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since 2000-07-31

Posts 3618
Statesboro, GA, USA

2 posted 2007-11-28 10:23 PM

It's not free-verse, note the rhyme scheme (every other line). And I tried to be somewhat metrical. Probably needs some improvement in that area.

quote:
But if the winter were the son of god, why we needed to ask "Shall We coax the gods with a song?"

Actually winter does not signify the Son of God, either in the first soliloquy or the second. In the first, it refers to actual winter to the ancient Gaelic or Celtic people who kept the festival of Samhain, hence "coaxing the gods with a song" ... a rhetorical question since winter was harsh and the mischievous spirits were much more demanding that. In the second soliloquy "winter" refers to a spiritual winter in the Church age. The third soliloquy is about a divine word of encouragement. It also reflects upon the progression of the Pagan festival into All Hallow's Eve, on to the much mitigated modern "Halloween" celebration, and finds symbolic meaning in the progression.

Stephen

TomMark
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3 posted 2007-11-28 10:59 PM

Is it called free verse when there is not meters? Or someone tells me that there are meters?

And I asked the question because I thought that you used "harvest" as "evangelicalism" so winter must be god(evil)s 'son.

it is good to read the poet to explain his own poem except Sir Brad hates to do such thing

TomMark
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4 posted 2007-11-28 11:40 PM

HARvest is DYing at WINter’s BIRTH   (9)
Shall WE coAX the GODS with a SONG?  (9)
The parTItion of WORLDS is now SHEER (9)
WE are RIGHT and YET reMAIN WRONG    (8)
ANgels are THRONing the stairWELL    (8)
And WHAT son of MAN can enSURE       (8)
their FEET be beNIGN and not HATEful (9)
HOly HOrrors to DANCE and enDURE     (9)
They PRESSEd us and SO WE were GIven (9)
to a MADness as SANE as a PRIEST     (9)
to OFfer by CANdle-LIGHT VIgils      (9)
our DESperATE and TErrible FEAST     (9)
BLOOD was deLUGED into GOBlets       (8)
that were TARnished with TREMBling YEARS (8)
And our iMAgiNAtion multiPLIED       (10)
the OBjects of our FEARS              (6)
DEcades FLEW like AUtumn LEAVES       (7)
And GHOULS RUSHED like the TIDE       (6)
SOMEtimes LEAving us resPITE          (7)
But ALways to aBIDE                   (6)
Till a WOman’s SEED in JAcob           (8)
then a MONster SET in ROme             (8)
imPUGNED our SAcred FEStivals          (8)
and DROVE us from our HOME             (6)
We reSISted FIRM and KEPT our FEAST    (8)
And as PAgans we would STAY            (7)
All HAllow’s Eve reMAINED the NIGHT    (8)
where MISchief HAD its WAY             (6)
But WHAT we kEPT was DARKness STILL    (8)
And SPECters as REAL as RAIN           (7)
to FALL upON us ALways                 (7)
IN this HARvest MOON of PAIN           (7)

Something like x x /, x x /

what is the form if it is not free verse?

serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02

Posts 27738

5 posted 2007-11-29 05:39 AM

An interesting trilogy--the change of perspectives is subtle, and I won't argue the ideologies.

You already know I go by ear, and I didn't trip up, but I DID tend to read without pausing, so I don't think the inexact syllable count detracts from--wince, the "flow". (She typed the "eff" word!)

I have to agree with TomMark about the free verse--free verse doesn't necessarily mean sans rhyme, er, does it?

Thanks for taking a stroll through my neck of the wood though, Stephan. And I agree with you that the sacred is all too often made profane. Just not quite the way you'd expect me to agree.

Not A Poet
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since 1999-11-03

Posts 3885
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6 posted 2007-11-29 09:55 AM

According to Bob's Byway

quote:
FREE VERSE
A fluid form which conforms to no set rules of traditional versification. The free in free verse refers to the freedom from fixed patterns of meter and rhyme,...

By strict interpretation of the above definition, one might note that, although it is consistently metric, there is not a "fixed pattern of meter." From that point, you could argue that it is free verse. I think, however, that it would be a losing argument as most readers would likely not classify it as free verse. The rhyme is fairly obvious.

Stephanos

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since 2000-07-31

Posts 3618
Statesboro, GA, USA

7 posted 2007-11-30 12:20 PM

Karen:

quote:
Thanks for taking a stroll through my neck of the wood though, Stephan.

First Century Ireland is "your neck of the woods"?

Just kidding. I know what you mean.

quote:
And I agree with you that the sacred is all too often made profane. Just not quite the way you'd expect me to agree.

Yes, if you'll notice there is the wrong / right theme all the way through, not just during the Pagan part. Its actually a poem that focuses on the humanity of Paganism, and Christendom, but asserts that ultimately, their consolation is one and the same.

And I just find that Halloween, and the history thereof (and the spiritual implications), is very intriguing.

TomMark

quote:
it is good to read the poet to explain his own poem except Sir Brad hates to do such thing.

I actually understand that.  Brad wants the poem (as pure art) to illicit what feelings and interpretations it may, quite without any help or commentary.  Maybe this view is expressed best by Archibald Macleish

"A poem should be palpable and mute
As a globed fruit,
Dumb
As old medallions to the thumb"

(as didactic a verse you've ever heard?)

Again, I understand this, but I don't think its the whole story.  Poetry is also language, and language involves reference.  When references are simply wrong (as the case might be with someone who doesn't know anything of the the ancient festival of Samhain), then the interpretation is simply wrong.

That's not to say there aren't "happy accidents" or that pleasure may not be derived from any interpretation of poetry.

Stephen

Brad
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since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

8 posted 2007-12-12 05:34 PM

Big problem: punctuation and caps.

quote:
Harvest is dying at winter’s birth[quote]

I'm not sure what what's going on here. As far as I can tell, it should stand as one sentence, but you have to add a period. Presumably, by 'dying' you mean that it's time to harvest the harvest?

[quote]Shall We coax the gods with a song?

Why the caps on We?

quote:
The partition of worlds is now sheer

Okay, I have the title and I have the theme, but I'm stuck with syntax. Why three lines/three sentences?

quote:
We are right and yet remain wrong

And now a 4th. I like the ambiguity and the surface contradiction, but I don't think you explore this enough.

quote:
Angels are thronging the stairwell
And what son of man can ensure
their feet be benign and not hateful
holy horrors to dance and endure

Frankly, I don't know how to read this. Does the line/sentence pattern continue or do you move into enjambment here? This grouping is a guess. I like the sentence as I've grouped it, but I think you can help the reader out a bit more.

quote:
They pressed us and so we were given
to a madness as sane as a priest
to offer by candle-light vigils
our desperate and terrible feast
blood was deluged into goblets
that were tarnished with trembling years

But does the same attempt work here:

"They pressed us and so we were given to a madness as sane as a priest to offer by candle-light vigils our desperate and terrible feast blood was deluged into goblets
that were tarnished with trembling years"

quote:
And our imagination multiplied
the objects of our fears

Okay, I like this but without a stronger context, it's kind of left out in the cold so to speak.

quote:
Decades flew like autumn leaves
And ghouls rushed like the tide

Is this right? You've moved back to caps.

quote:
Sometimes leaving us respite
But always to abide
Till a woman’s seed in Jacob

And now I'm just confused. There's a lot to play with here, but I get the feeling that you are dabbling and not giving the reader enough to go on. It looks random and arbitrary.

Random and arbitrary can be okay, but that combined with random and arbitrary cap usage, non-specific punctuation and syntax problems (if I'm reading it right) leave me dying at winter's birth.

quote:
then a monster set in Rome
impugned our sacred festivals
and drove us from our home

And it's starting to make sense here. I'm a little confused with 'monster set in Rome' but I can make it work if I want to.

quote:
We resisted firm and kept our feast
And as Pagans we would stay
All Hallow’s Eve remained the night
where mischief had its way

Caps again. I can't see a point of view here. Would 'We' call themselves Pagan, would they call their holiday "All Hallow's Eve".

I don't know. I do know it's confusing the hell out of me.

quote:
But what we kept was darkness still
And specters as real as rain
to fall upon us always
in this harvest moon of pain

Now, what do I do with this? Why would anybody keep 'darkness still'?

Believe it or not, I see so much potential here I'm salivating. The problem is that it would also be a very, very complex poem with multiple pov's, visions within visions, and so on and so forth.

You have a lot of work ahead of you.

Want some help?

Brad
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since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

9 posted 2007-12-15 10:28 PM

I'm not going to let this one fall too far. I still think that there's a lot to be talked about here.

jbouder
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since 1999-09-18

Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash

10 posted 2007-12-17 04:52 PM

Steven:

Agree with Brad that this has some very interesting potential. I will try to give you a complete crit, but I might have to do it in sections.

Without reiterating too much of what Brad already said, I'd recommend that you rethink the caps and also add punctuation. Besides making the read easier on the reader, I think a dash here and there might emphasize key points you want to make.

quote:
Harvest is dying at winter’s birth
Shall We coax the gods with a song?
The partition of worlds is now sheer
We are right and yet remain wrong

I really like the first line, but "coax" rings harsh to the ear (it is a word that means something much softer than it sounds - a bit of a poetic contradiction). Not sure why "We" is capitalized. My guess it is either a typo or meant to elevate the "We" before the diminished "gods" (with a lower-cased "g"). The latter is too subtle to work well for me for me.

The third line is also a little awkward to my ear, and a little too concrete. What did the Celts call this partition? Could you describe the sheerness in the partition in a way that implies both sheerness and the presence of a partition? When a sheer partition is in front of me, I tend to notice what is on the other side first and then, if I look long enough, I notice the partition. Since this is a perspective piece, I guess I'm saying I want to see what they see and hear it in their words (like the third poem, which I will have to get to later.

quote:
Angels are thronging the stairwell
And what son of man can ensure
their feet be benign and not hateful
holy horrors to dance and endure

I can't place these as Celtic. Angels? Son of man? Holy horrors? Why not spirits, men, and gods?

I could go line by line for the next several with similar comments. I think you know what you want to say, but I'm not sure you've decided how to say it. Like Brad (I think), I like the perspectives approach to this. What I think is needed at this stage is more research on your part in order to tell the story in the pagan's words (or neopagan's words). This might take more research. I might recommend Adler's "Drawing Down the Moon" or Starhawk's "Spiral Dance."

quote:
Till a woman’s seed in Jacob
then a monster set in Rome
impugned our sacred festivals
and drove us from our home

The first allusion is pretty obvious, the second I think is Constantine the Great.  I think the second needs more of a hook (I can't be sure this is who you mean).

The final lines suggest a neopagan voice - the "Song of the Celt" is more of a "Song of the New Celt."  It also ends a bit darkly - almost as if resisting the Christianist changes to their valued traditions is a burden.  Do you think they would describe it that way?

Stephen, out of time at the moment, but I am impressed with what I think you are aiming to do here.  I think a good starting point to working on the next draft would be finding the voice of the (New) Celt.  If I were drafting this, I'd work on this first and then begin tweaking the rhythm and rhyme.

I'll come back to this when I can.

Jim

Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea

11 posted 2007-12-17 05:27 PM

C'mon, Stephen. Jim has chimed in. You know it's gotta be a keeper if both of us want to spend some time on it.

Stephanos

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since 2000-07-31

Posts 3618
Statesboro, GA, USA

12 posted 2007-12-18 12:01 PM

Thanks guys. Yeah I want some help, I've been waiting on it.

I'll comment on your comments soon.

Stephen

jbouder
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since 1999-09-18

Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash

13 posted 2007-12-18 04:34 PM

Stephen:

Comments, Part Diex.

Why isn’t this one called Psalm of the Prophet?  And since you are still in POV mode, why not use this as an opportunity to try writing in the ancient Hebraic poetic style?  Just an opinion, but I think it would lend authenticity to the narrator.  See:

/pip/Forum22/HTML/000192.html
Harvest is dying at winter’s birth
     [The new season’s whistling songs rise –]
How shall we sing [to the Lord who provides [or “Jehovah Jireh”]]
     [far from the lands of our fathers
     where Lady Wisdom is mocked
     and her Lord wronged?]

NOTE: Stephen, this is obviously not final draft quality stuff – just following my thoughts and feelings with where this could go.  Do you get the idea I’m trying to convey?

They took in name the Name we gave
but kept in heart their ways –
      how fleeting [faith] at the point of steel
      [how false] the pretense of our praise

NOTE: One of the things I like about Hebrew poetry is that it builds opportunities to emphasize points into the style.  Notice the indented lines with my additions … some formatting and a few words and (I think) the point is driven home a little more sharply (bad puns definitely intended).

I think you could relax the rhyme scheme and syllable length with this one.  Besides ... we have no way of knowing whether Hebrew poetry rhymed, and we can be reasonably certain there was no law requiring it to rhyme (another bad pun intended).

quote:
Strewn and trampled in the sand
was the salt we were meant to be

I would just check your references here. I don’t recall any Tanakh references to trampled salt … isn’t this a New Testament reference? If so, you might want to replace it with another metaphor … if not, just ignore me.

quote:
Decades flew like autumn leaves
and[,] cloven a thousand ways[,]
we were driven to lands and lords abroad
like wanderers in a maze[.]

I lost the caps and added punctuation above. Besides that, I really like how this sounds. In my opinion, the end of this poem is the strongest part of it. I suspect these are the lines you built the rest of the poem around.

In summary, I would recommend that you (1) explore the voice of the Psalmist-as-narrator POV, (2) add some punctuation, (3) check some of your references and biblical allusions, and (4) take advantage of some of the poetic tools typically used by the Psalmists. What I’m getting so far as I read from the first to the second is a change in topic but not a change in voice. Perhaps the rhyme scheme and poetic style are contributing to this, but I think it is one that can be easily overcome. You've certainly done most of the hard work already. I think it would be really cool to read these perspectives in the voices of their proponents.

More later … up too late watching the Monday Night game.

Jim

TomMark
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14 posted 2007-12-18 05:06 PM

Very interesting suggestion. Thank you Jbouder for the mini lecture-on the link. I shall wait for whoever rewrites the first 8 lines to give a try. if not by Stephen himself.

Stephanos

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since 2000-07-31

Posts 3618
Statesboro, GA, USA

15 posted 2007-12-18 10:54 PM

Brad:

quote:
Big problem: punctuation and caps.

Yeah, I confess I'm very sloppy with such decisions, if you can call them decisions. I will pay more attention to this as I revise.

quote:
Okay, I have the title and I have the theme, but I'm stuck with syntax. Why three lines/three sentences?

I guess the thoughts just "landed" that way, no serious consideration given to where sentences would end in relation to line breaks.

An amateur's question to you: Do you think that's bad, and why? Explain in detail.

quote:
We are right and yet remain wrong ... And now a 4th. I like the ambiguity and the surface contradiction, but I don't think you explore this enough.

The rightness of the Celt refers to "the partition of worlds" being thin. In other words, they were right that the supernatural was imminent, though the expression of it was horrifying. Also coaxing the gods with a song represents a right idea, that there is something or someone in Heaven with higher claims. "Shall we coax the gods with a song?" is meant with a bit of rhetorical sarcasm. When so much is at stake, life is so unpredictable, and the gods are as terrible and unknowable as they are, will mere music suffice? This leads to the "offered ... desperate and terrible feast" later in the poem.

Also the idea of an admixture of right and wrong is expressed in the line "madness as sane as a priest".

In what ways do you see how this idea could be explored further?

(BTW I'm really enjoying the feedback here)

quote:
"Angels are thronging the stairwell
And what son of man can ensure
their feet be benign and not hateful
holy horrors to dance and endure"

Frankly, I don't know how to read this. Does the line/sentence pattern continue or do you move into enjambment here? This grouping is a guess. I like the sentence as I've grouped it, but I think you can help the reader out a bit more.

I moved into enjambment. The sentence as you have grouped it is correct. What more can be done (besides proper punctuation) to help the reader?

quote:
But does the same attempt work here:

"They pressed us and so we were given to a madness as sane as a priest to offer by candle-light vigils our desperate and terrible feast blood was deluged into goblets
that were tarnished with trembling years"

How about this?

"They pressed us and so we were given to a madness as sane as a priest to offer by candle-light vigils our desperate and terrible feast(.) Blood was deluged into goblets that were tarnished with trembling years"

quote:
Random and arbitrary can be okay, but that combined with random and arbitrary cap usage, non-specific punctuation and syntax problems (if I'm reading it right) leave me dying at winter's birth.

Yes Yes, point taken.

quote:
And it's starting to make sense here. I'm a little confused with 'monster set in Rome' but I can make it work if I want to.

While it leaves the context of the first century Celt ... this is reference to Roman Catholic church, or to a monstrous side of it, or Christendom. Jim was right to mention Constantine. It may be a reference to any religion that holds good doctrine but tries to rule with carnal power and religion-by-force. I guess here you might say that the Celt here represents Paganism through time, observing.

I thought about "Pagan, Priest, and Prophet" rather than "Celt, Prophet, and Angel". Would this move into the general, take care of my frequent anachronisms and stretches of point of view? Just wondering what you think?

quote:
We resisted firm and kept our feast
And as Pagans we would stay
All Hallow’s Eve remained the night
where mischief had its way

I can't see a point of view here. Would 'We' call themselves Pagan, would they call their holiday "All Hallow's Eve".

I don't know. I do know it's confusing the hell out of me.

Pagans would perhaps have called themselves "pagans" after the advent of Christendom, as well as "All Hallow's Eve". Again, these are anachronisms, if I am writing in a time-bound and localized voice. I guess I need to decide exactly what kind of identity to give the speakers.

quote:
But what we kept was darkness still

Now, what do I do with this? Why would anybody keep 'darkness still'?

What was meant was "what we kept remained as darkness". If its unclear maybe my clarification could be my replacement line.

quote:
The problem is that it would also be a very, very complex poem with multiple pov's, visions within visions, and so on and so forth.

You have a lot of work ahead of you.

Before I revise could you give me a few more suggestions? I am up for the task.

Thanks.

Stephen.

Jim, I'll reply to you next.

oceanvu2
Senior Member

since 2007-02-24

Posts 1066
Santa Monica, California, USA

16 posted 2007-12-24 05:43 PM

Hi Stephen RE: Brad wants the poem (as pure art) to illicit what feelings and interpretations it may, quite without any help or commentary.  Maybe this view is expressed best by Archibald Macleish

"A poem should be palpable and mute
As a globed fruit,
Dumb
As old medallions to the thumb"

(as didactic a verse you've ever heard?)

Again, I understand this, but I don't think its the whole story.  Poetry is also language, and language involves reference.  When references are simply wrong (as the case might be with someone who doesn't know anything of the the ancient festival of Samhain), then the interpretation is simply wrong.

That's not to say there aren't "happy accidents" or that pleasure may not be derived from any interpretation of poetry."

You have hit, as others have, in say Huan Yi's thread on "Well then, what is poetry?" Lot's of interesting answers, and Macleish offers his point of view.  I don't think it is a didactic statement, though.  I think it is a metaphoric one.  The lines:

"Dumb
As old medallions to the thumb"

carry the freight of multiple meanings.

Grihch also likes looking at a poem as a completeness in itself, and suggests that there cannot be a "wrong" interpretation by a reader.  If the reader does not understand what the poet intended, they still understand what the poem is to them.

A teacher of mine, John Williams, tried to sum it up by saying "Poetry moves people." So, of course, do a lot of other things.  The question is, is "move" a key component to poetry?  I'd like to think so, but maybe "move" is too simple a take.

At any rate, you've "moved" people to the point of sustained interest with this one.  The interest alone suggests you're working with something worthwhile.

Best, Jim Aitken

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