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Critical Analysis #2
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Roysie
Member
since 2007-08-05
Posts 102
Canada

0 posted 2007-08-15 08:26 AM


                      Someday

                  before we vanish

               a whisper in the hall

              a shadow on a cold night

           fading and shimmering starlight

          fall down upon a world enlightened

        hatred and heartache a bitter memory

       freedom tempered only by consideration

    of all things great and small that once lived

   on a speck of dust but rose to glory and found
  
                             Love



© Copyright 2007 Roysie - All Rights Reserved
guyoverthere
Member
since 2007-08-12
Posts 58

1 posted 2007-08-15 10:05 AM


Ok,
      What I didn't like:

the words 'shimmering starlight' and 'enlightened'.  It's just that the phrase 'shimmering starlight' reminds me of such played-out cliches as 'galactic ...' and 'rippling brook' or something such as that.  'Enlightened', while it works well here for the point you are trying to make, is simply wayyyyy overused.  Maybe instead:

fall down upon a world matured
  
or

fall down upon a world reflecting

Something that suggests enlightenment, but without that bad word.

I also don't quite understand the last few lines.  You wrote:

"Freedom tempered only by consideration/of all things great and small that once lived."  

Maybe I'm obtuse, I just don't understand what you are trying to say.  What were you trying to say?

Roysie
Member
since 2007-08-05
Posts 102
Canada
2 posted 2007-08-15 10:26 AM


Well...I didn't know there were any "bad" words. There are bad writers but there are no bad words. Enlightened is exactly the word required...no more...no less. The line you don't understand requires some thought. Try looking at the full phrase:"freedom tempered only by consideration of all things great and small" and it may become clear. Thanks for your input, Regards Roy
PS Democracy is not a perfect system. I support it and it is I suppose the best we have at present but it's not a perfect system.

guyoverthere
Member
since 2007-08-12
Posts 58

3 posted 2007-08-15 11:03 AM


It doesn't become clear.  

And I don't think 'enlightened' is "exactly" the word you need.  And it is overused.

PS.

I am being constructive.  It is important not to get defensive.  I didn't say it was a bad poem, just that with a few word changes and a little clarity it'd be really good.

Roysie
Member
since 2007-08-05
Posts 102
Canada
4 posted 2007-08-15 11:25 AM


Yeah I've been on the defensive a lot lately. I appreciate your input but the poem/prayer really is about enlightenment...so we can't change that. I don't really like splaining my writing...kind of takes the air out of the balloon if you know what I mean. But since this is a workshop environment. The line refers to charity. Freedom unbridled often leads to suffering by the minority or the disadvantaged or the handicapped. Since this prayer is for a truly enlightened world..a perfect world if you will..then freedom would be tempered with charity for all creatures great and small. I don't just write about my day or my latest romance... well sometimes I do.
PS I guess I could have just said charity...but then it wouldn't look like a Christmas tree!

Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
5 posted 2007-08-15 12:16 PM


If you want to please the eye with physical shapes I would recommend drawing, painting, sculpting, etc.  But trying to use words physically to look like a "tree" is full vain in poetry.  Not only does it turn out as a weak picture, but it turns out as a weak poem as well.

guyoverthere
Member
since 2007-08-12
Posts 58

6 posted 2007-08-15 12:26 PM


If the poem is about enlightenment, then that is really why you should change the word.  

And technically, you wouldn't 'temper' freedom with 'charity' you would temper freedom with oppression or control.  To temper is to supply a correctional, or couterbalancing force.  Now, if you're suggesting freedom is oppressive, then that's ok. That's why I didn't understand it.  Charity is an act of freedom.  No one is forcefully charitable.  

Roysie
Member
since 2007-08-05
Posts 102
Canada
7 posted 2007-08-15 01:18 PM


I don't agree. The word is temper not counter. Just as in our daily lives we often temper truth with tact in my perfect world freedom would be tempered by charity. Would you not help a disabled person to vote? Also don't forget temper in the piece refers directly to consideration. So freedom tempered ONLY by thoughtful charity.
Shapes in poetry...I know corny. I remember reading the rules from U of T here about submitting shapes...pretty funny but that's another story. I don't do them anymore but I thought this one worked, I was pleased with it so..what the hey.

guyoverthere
Member
since 2007-08-12
Posts 58

8 posted 2007-08-15 01:37 PM


Definition of tempered, according to the Free Online Dictionary:

Tem*pered - adj. - adjusted or attuned by the addition of a counterbalancing element; moderated or measured

So that is why it was initially confusing to me.  I get what you are trying to say, namely, that freedom oppresses, and that oppression should be tempered by charity.  

But to someone reading it for whom your personal feelings have not been explained, there is really no way to make correlation between freedom being oppressive and that needing to be... blah blah blah

All I'm saying is that if you feel like freedom is oppressive, you need to put that in there too, otherwise people will be lost.  

PS.  I also don't write about my 'day' or 'latest romance' and if that is what you were referring to, than you need to read a little deeper.  Was Frost (not that I'm Frost) just writing about a ride home in "stopping by woods on a snowy evening."  Think not.  And stop being so defensive.

Roysie
Member
since 2007-08-05
Posts 102
Canada
9 posted 2007-08-15 02:16 PM


Ha Guy now you're the one being defensive. As I writer you should know we don't spoon feed and there's nothing wrong with being a little oblique. Heavens that's what poetry's all about. I wasn't referring to you at all. Have a great day and thank's for the input. Food for thought, pardon the pun.
guyoverthere
Member
since 2007-08-12
Posts 58

10 posted 2007-08-15 10:53 PM


There is a big heaping spoonful of 'enlightenment' in your poem Roy.  Ha!  Lol, ok ok, I think enough is enough.  Bygons pal?  *extending a hand in a gesture of friendliness*  


viking_metal
Senior Member
since 2007-02-02
Posts 1337
In a Jeep, Minnesota.
11 posted 2007-08-16 12:12 PM


Hey, against all odds, someone in here has to decided to say something non-offensive.

I thought it was a cute little poem. Nothing earthshattering, but I did like it for what it was. A simple poem.

Edward Grim
Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154
Greenville, South Carolina
12 posted 2007-08-16 12:49 PM


I didn't know critique was considered "offensive" in the Critical Analysis forum.

"Well I wish that you would cheat with someone, 'cause you're like diggin' holes in water and we know that can't be done."

Roysie
Member
since 2007-08-05
Posts 102
Canada
13 posted 2007-08-16 09:22 AM


Hey Guy, I'm an amateur chef so anything you say is alright by me. I'm lookin for tips! Cheers, Roy
PS Thst's cooking tips not monetary..lol
PPS Viking that's exactly what it is.

Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
14 posted 2007-08-16 11:54 AM


I don't find anything impressive at this forum anymore.  It is like coming into a room full of reckless teenagers.  People don't even pursue basic and strong sentence structure and punctuation, let alone strong poetic form.  They seem to think all they need is some vague suggestions that come across as profound in order to write a good poem.  Moreover, they seem to think that content does it all and that form is needless.  And so we end up with bunch of nearly formless, unpunctuated, vague, slop called "poetry" trying to justify its neglectfulness and lack of form by how profound its vagueness and suggestiveness seems.  What's the point of even coming into this forum anymore when its manners of writing are become so low and reckless?



Roysie
Member
since 2007-08-05
Posts 102
Canada
15 posted 2007-08-16 12:20 PM


I agree...but don't judge ME on this little prayer shaped like a Christmas tree...Please.
guyoverthere
Member
since 2007-08-12
Posts 58

16 posted 2007-08-16 12:25 PM


You should check out the Poetry Free For All Essorant.  Their level of critique is serious.  They'll boot people for not punctuating or critiquing properly.  
It's a little out of my league.  You'd like it.

Edward Grim
Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154
Greenville, South Carolina
17 posted 2007-08-16 01:27 PM


God Ess, you sound more and more like an elitist every time you post.

You do have a point though, I suppose. Content isn't everything. But I know some people who only focus on the form and forget the content. *wink*

Two sides of the same coin, my friend.

"Well I wish that you would cheat with someone, 'cause you're like diggin' holes in water and we know that can't be done."

Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
18 posted 2007-08-16 02:08 PM


No thanks, Guy.  

Poetry Free For All has just as much poor poetry, despite its "wealth" of arrogant rules.  I also find it hypermodernist.  If you use a word such "whence" the critics are put in a disjoint; and you will probably be banned if you use "thou".

[This message has been edited by Essorant (08-17-2007 12:47 AM).]

moonbeam
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19 posted 2007-08-17 05:31 AM




quote:
People don't even pursue basic and strong sentence structure and punctuation, let alone strong poetic form.

Ess

What do you mean by strong poetic form?  You presumably aren't advocating a poetry centered exclusively around traditional forms?  You perhaps mean poetry which, though outside those forms, nevertheless respects them?

I agree with you about the forum.  That's the problem with the PiP approach in a "serious" critiquing forum.  It only takes one or two idiots to create mayhem.  I guess it's up to the majority (hopefully) to try and show the way in a professional manner, which at the same time allows for an enlivening humor and banter, without overstepping the mark.  Always difficult in a public forum, which I suppose is why this site you refer to has very strict rules.  Anyway we've had this debate countless times before ~sigh~.

What happened to the mentoring?

M

Marge Tindal
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20 posted 2007-08-17 09:36 AM


Roysie~
As I LOVE shaped poems ...
I took the liberty of pruning your little Christmas tree into shape for you~
Hope you find it pleasing to the eye~


Someday
before we vanish
a whisper in the hall
a shadow on a cold night
fading and shimmering starlight
fall down upon a world enlightened
hatred and heartache a bitter memory
freedom tempered only by consideration
of all things great and small that once lived
on a speck of dust but rose to glory and found
Love


~*The sound of a kiss is not as strong as that of a cannon, but it's echo endures much longer*~
Email -     noles1@totcon.com   

Roysie
Member
since 2007-08-05
Posts 102
Canada
21 posted 2007-08-17 09:50 AM


Thank you very much Marge! That's exactly what I had in mind.
JenniferMaxwell
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22 posted 2007-08-17 10:23 AM


I think the pruning needed on this poem has nothing to do with the shape.  

Colors and shapes might be ok in Open on a slow day, but seem really very silly in CA, a serious critique forum.

sampo
Member
since 2007-02-25
Posts 54
oz
23 posted 2007-08-17 10:43 AM


So, what does the Christmas tree shape
have to with the content? Concrete/Visual
poetry re-enforces its theme with aesthetic.
I see a tree, but read a kind of love poem.
Dendrophilia?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_poetry

These are cliche -

shimmering starlight
bitter memory
all things great and small
speck of dust
rose to glory

Overall the content is fairly abstract.
It needs to be grounded with more personal/
revealing elements. The statement is too generic. Hope this helps some.

Regards,

sampo.

Brad
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since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
24 posted 2007-08-17 07:00 PM


I think Alicat has an interesting concrete  poem somewhere around here.

But christmas trees are an amazing source of metaphor. Think about it: the colors, the lights, the decorations, the presents underneath, the smells, the way the needles feel in your hand or when you have to clean them, taking it out to the garbage after it turns brown, the plastic variety etc.

Perhaps the wrong choice for such a pregnant theme?

Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
25 posted 2007-08-17 09:11 PM


Marge,

Don't you have any brown paint for the treetrunk?  


Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
26 posted 2007-08-17 10:43 PM



What do you mean by strong poetic form?  You presumably aren't advocating a poetry centered exclusively around traditional forms?  You perhaps mean poetry which, though outside those forms, nevertheless respects them?



Moonbeam,

You may find the answer (among many arguments) in these threads:
  
Very Well, What is Poetry?

Rap=Poetry?

What happened to the mentoring?


I don't know.  Perhaps it is too much commitment.


[This message has been edited by Essorant (08-17-2007 11:23 PM).]

moonbeam
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27 posted 2007-08-18 03:55 AM


Ess
quote:
I won't hide the fact that I find freeverse an inferior form of writing poetry when held up in comparison with traditional, wellwritten formverse in English.   In my opinion it is a bit of a delusion to paint it out as if it is an "equal" tool.  I simply don't see this "tool" doing as well as the tools of such poets as the Beowulf-Poet, Chaucer, Shakespeare, Pope, and Poe and so many others, that heightened poetry so strongly thro stress-meter, syllable-stress meter, and rhyme.  They had much more than good ideas, but they heightened the language as much as possible to bring forth ideas and words in as eloquent a way as possible.  People today may go that distance as well if they dared to be so ambitious and heighten language as much as possible by using such forms.  But since freeverse basically "frees" itself from those, it also lacks the long historical support of them.  That doesn't mean it doesn't have its own more individual strength, but that individual strength is is not as strong as the traditional forms already so strongly proven thro many ages.

You certainly know how to make someone work for answers! lol

I agree with much you say about form, I also agree with much Ron said about "free".

Perhaps sometimes we have to be audacious enough to believe we can do "better" than historical or traditional precedent.  Perhaps   if someone long ago hadn't done that you'd still be sitting in a cave instead of at your computer.

M

Marge Tindal
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28 posted 2007-08-18 12:25 PM




Someday
before we vanish
a whisper in the hall
a shadow on a cold night
fading and shimmering starlight
fall down upon a world enlightened
hatred and heartache a bitter memory
freedom tempered only by consideration
of all things great and small that once lived
on a speck of dust but rose to glory and found
Love


~*The sound of a kiss is not as strong as that of a cannon, but it's echo endures much longer*~
Email -     noles1@totcon.com   

moonbeam
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29 posted 2007-08-18 03:58 PM


Interesting though Ess, I have been trying all day to reconcile what I said above with my belief that period architecture should be the basis for all architecture.

Humm.

M

PS The first effort was better Marge, plain green and tasteful, this one looks, well, just tacky imo .

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