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Haiku???
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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Haiku??? |
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longte Member
since 2005-04-06
Posts 199Australia |
Pelicans gliding black then white in perfect flight awkwardly landing Very new to Haiku I know this doesnt fit the criteria as it rhymes??? Put this in here to find out exactly what does form a good Haiku, as I have seen two line Haiku and others that dont meet the 5/7/5 criteria at all, even when translated into Japanese being revered as excvellent work??? Live It |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Hi lonte. If you Google "Jane Reichhold" you'll find tons of info on haiku. |
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Bronzeage Member
since 2007-07-20
Posts 197 |
One would think, with a simple formula, like 5-7-5, it would be easy to define a haiku. Just as soon as you declare it to be a certain thing, someone will come along and point to hidden oriental philosophies that guide the haiku poet to someplace inacessable to the rest of us. It's just not that hard. We take the Japanese form and make it fit our English words. No one said it couldn't rhyme or it shouldn't. If an internal rhyme fits the piece there is no reason not to use it. There are other Japanese haikus which don't match the 5-7-5 count. If a Japanese poet wants to call them haiku as well, it doesn't bother me. "Pelicans gliding black then white in perfect flight awkwardly landing" This is a good haiku. The count is correct and it paints a picture for the reader. The essense of all sylable based form poetry is clarity. You don't have many words to work with, so you have to be spare and clear. Type II poet. Its worth the work. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Hello, If I understand aright, Japanese words are more syllabley, and fewer words generally make up seventeen syllables than in English. One may try to make up for that difference by using less syllables when writing Haiku in English. Another way one may is simply to use less monosyllabic (one-syllable) words. As long as most syllables in your Haiku are not monosyllabic words, it probably may be said to have about as many words as the average Japanese Haiku. I believe most English Haiku written in 5-7-5 probably live up to that, as this one does. This is not too bad to begin with. I would suggest adding punctuation though, as that is not hard work for three short lines and shows more critical care for good manners in writing. I also recommend avoiding using only adjectival verb forms such as gliding and landing, instead of finite verb forms such as (they) glide, (they) glided, (they) land, (they) landed. In Haiku it is also somewhat a waste giving up one of the few syllables you have to "ing" more than you need. I hope that helps a bit. [This message has been edited by Essorant (07-31-2007 10:49 PM).] |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Thanks to Jen for aquainting me to the Japanese word onji. It appears the Japanese don't go by syllables at all, but instead they go by morae (latin for "delays"), called onji in Japanese, that in linguistics refers to units of time for sounds. The Japanese Haiku doesn't have 17 syllables, but intead it has 17 onji or morae. |
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longte Member
since 2005-04-06
Posts 199Australia |
Pelicans glided black and white in perfect flight awkwardly landed OK Did two minor changes In this case changing the gliding to glided doesnt save me any syllables But I understand what you mean Changing the black then white in perfect flight to black and white in perfect flight seems to flow more easily although.. it does remove the repetitive sense of motion that comes with "then" All good FUN Thanks everyone Peter |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
A few basics from an article in the British Haiku Society Journal: http://www.haikusoc.ndo.co.uk/occpapers.html And a few more from Ahapoetry: http://www.ahapoetry.com/haidefjr.htm |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Longte, Something seems off. I think it may be having two verbs so close together. Perhaps it may be better to use "gliding" in the first line and "landed" in the third, something such as: Pelicans gliding, Black and white in perfect flight Awkwardly landed. Does that sound well? Jenn, Thanks for posting the links to some very interesting knowledge about Haiku. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Working with the images you've chosen, longte, and keeping in mind the "all good fun" elegant in flight black and white pelican flock chicken flap landing  You're welcome, Essorant. [This message has been edited by JenniferMaxwell (08-04-2007 12:00 AM).] |
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longte Member
since 2005-04-06
Posts 199Australia |
OK Having FUN now Owing to my inbuilt need to have that awkward thing called rhyme I still prefer my one But thats just personal taste [perhaps like chicken flapping] Tokyo booming Concrete canyons cover land Grandfathers garden Now that appears to meet the criteria better?? Peter |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Concrete canyons = subways? |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Other than the 5-7-5, what criteria are you referring to, Peter? Tokyo undergrounds raking father’s zen garden |
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longte Member
since 2005-04-06
Posts 199Australia |
How this started is the interesting part This all started after reading a judges comments on a Villanelle competition "Although this poem does not follow the strict guidelines for Villanelle, it deserves first place owing to its message and the beauty of its structure" I keep on reading things like that But where does it stop?? Haiku seems to be the main poetic form that we have totally altered Why did we alter it? Because we couldnt handle composing according the fairly rigid rules of Haiku? Or because those rules needed changing?? Even though I normally write rhyming verse I very seldom write following poetic forms But they are extremely important as tools mainly because they are very difficult to beat as an excercise If we keep saying "This is good even though it broke the rules" instead of saying "This broke the rules for [insert poetic form here] so therefore cannot be judged in this competition, and perhaps we need to make a new name for it" we could end up with free verse winning a Petrachian Sonnet competition Haiku and other Japanese forms seem to have been by far worst affected/infected by this Poetic licence should also require poetic responsibility unless a particular form needed change desperately Personally I think Haiku is quite interesting in its brevity and accuracy So that is why I started this as a Haiku No, I have not yet, and have no intention of entering competitions at this point |
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longte Member
since 2005-04-06
Posts 199Australia |
Concrete canyons cover land, was simply the way the skyscapers leave us staggering, bemused, along a concrete sided canyon that is the same in every big city in the world grandfathers garden, is simply what once was but can never be again .. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Now that you’ve given us a little tongue lashing for not writing haiku in “proper form”, I think it only fair that you enlighten us as to what that “proper form” really is, Peter, and why you chose to deviate from it in your haiku. Or did you? Concrete canyons - interesting image. Can you tell that I live in the boonies and don’t think in skyscrapers? Subway was even a stretch. |
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longte Member
since 2005-04-06
Posts 199Australia |
Hi Jennifer No tongue lashing at all Just trying to work out why we do it??? We have all these wonderful Forms out there Haiku is one of the oldest Yet we change it and others at will and are permitted to do so with impunity There is a thing called Katikati Haiku Path in New Zealand writen by 'famous' USA Australian and New Zealand poets It contains at least one two line Haiku Most of the others do not fit the 5.7.5 criteria Yet it is advertised as a major tourist attraction and virtually encourages others to follow its guidelines That is ok in itself but how can any aspiring haiku writer begin to understand if the 'rules' keep changing into vitually whatever the poet wants at the time and the Judges accept that in most cases The only reason I used Haiku as an example was that it seems to be the one being changed the most Haiku Haibun Villanelle Phantoum These are all ones I have seen recently awarded prizes even though, in the judges comments, they did not fit the criteria The judges should have said ""This is a truly beautiful/powerful/strong poem and deserves recognition, BUT, because it does not fit the specific criteria we cannot judge it here"" Maybe that would bring things back into shape Have FUN Peter |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Maybe the judges know that it's not quite as simple as 5-7-5? http://www.ahapoetry.com/wildonji.htm Happy reading! |
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longte Member
since 2005-04-06
Posts 199Australia |
The more I read on haiku the more involved it becomes BUT even allowing for go-ji shichi-ji go-ji literally, "five characters, seven characters, five characters." Similarly we can count: go-on shichi-on go-on which has a meaning similar to #1 above: "five sounds, seven sounds, five sounds." and things like that, that still does not explain where you can get a two line Haiku and still call it a Haiku Having FUN Peter |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Keep reading, Peter. Sooner or later it will all become clear and you will understand. |
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longte Member
since 2005-04-06
Posts 199Australia |
Hi Jennifer Some of it is easy to understand But the one that stumps me is fairly simple No matter what we call the Sylable/break/intonation/stress, in traditional Haiku there are 5/7/5 When we write, how can we say that a short four letter word can contain 5 [insert name here] or that a short two line Haiku can contain the basic requirements of a Haiku which requires a total, of 17 [insert name here] It seems very easy to use the differences between Japanese and English to excuse the way we change things, but is it the correct thing to do? As I said earlier this was just to pose questions about all forms of poetry being changed at the whim of the poet 2006 August A woman was very amazed that the 3976 entries in a Japanese Tanka competition actually followed the 5/7/5/7/7 formula Why would she be amazed? She should have been amazed if they didn't Perhaps we should make a new name for poetry that doesn't fit a fixed form Example Haiku would still be traditional Hailu/Haibu etc is for newer styles??? Having FUN Peter |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Think about this. If a haiku written by a Japanese master is translated into into another language and a proper or meaningful translation is impossible in that language in the 5-7-5 or 17 syllable count you're so fixated on, is it no longer a haiku when translated? |
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longte Member
since 2005-04-06
Posts 199Australia |
I can only agree with that if the reverse is also true I gave the KakiKakti Haiku Path haikus to a friend who is Japanese and occassionally writes Haiku Only one of them could even roughly be translated into Japanese and maintain the count, which is only to be expected That argument cannot work when translating poetry Mainly because virtually no rhyming poetry would ever rhyme on translation, so this automatically precludes most of the "Forms" out there In a perfect world Haiku would maintain the count regardless of the language, but that would involve absolute knowledge of every language, which is beyond most people, myself definitely included This is getting interesting now These replies are opening up distinct possibilities Having FUN Peter |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
The count is seventeen morae. But how ought we to count morae in English? |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
What are you agreeing with, Peter, that it's still a haiku even though it doesn't meet your 5-7-5 criteria? That's the point, Essorant, you can't. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
More happy reading: http://www.ahapoetry.com/keirule.htm |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
So in short, what is the closest equivelant in English to the seventeen morae in Japanese? It sounds like it is saying something between a minimum of eleven syllables and maximum of seventeen syllables is more approximate. I don't have any argument against that. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Neither do I, Essorant. but I don't think Peter will agree.  |
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longte Member
since 2005-04-06
Posts 199Australia |
Hi Again I do actually agree with that But only if we still stick to the 17 or whatever number fits best not if we say somewhere between 11 and 17 as this removes the essential form/difficulty of the Haiku's actual 'Form' To say morae cannot be defined in English terminology must be incorrect [I hope] Will investigate and get back Having Good Fun Now Peter |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Of course it is. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I don't believe anyone said that, Peter. In fact, if you check out Gilbert's article indeed you will find a definition and a section on mora and prosody. Are you reading any of the articles or was posting them a total waste of my time? |
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longte Member
since 2005-04-06
Posts 199Australia |
Hi Jennifer The only reason I made that comment was a simple one If a Japanese Haiku requires 17 morae to be considered a Haiku why should we be able to have Haiku with between 11 and 17 Yes I have been reading Thankyou very much for the leads you dropped in here You may have led to lots of confusion on my part, as there is so much contradiction in the many Google leads for Haiku, but that is entirely my problem Great to talk with people who actually write Haiku instead of those who only write about them have FUN Peter |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
One final thought, hope it doesn't add to your confusion: "To insist on 17 syllables, willy-nilly, may result in the 'half-said thing' becoming the 'too-much-said thing'." And a final link: http://www.haiku.insouthsea.co.uk/english.htm [This message has been edited by JenniferMaxwell (08-08-2007 05:55 AM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
This thread is very confusing to me. What exactly are you trying to accomplish here? It makes no sense to me. Japanese rules work well enough for Japanese poetry, but I don't always see the point of following them in English poetry. A couple of examples: My name is Brad. In Japanese, it is pronounced Bu-ra-do. Let's take a look at McDonald's. In Japanese, it is pronounced Ma-ku-do-na-ra-do-su. Time duration is fine (look at the difference between rock and stone, bit and bite, but in Japanese the time duration, at least in theory, always remains the same -- it helps to understand the explanation if you know how kana work. But I don't see the value of attempting to follow any of this in English anymore than I see the value of trying to write a Shakespearean sonnet in Japanese. Two different languages, two different ways of doing things, and none of it mysterious. |
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longte Member
since 2005-04-06
Posts 199Australia |
Hi Brad The thread was not simply about Haiku I only used Haiku as an example to show how we alter 'Forms' at will I still believe we need the various Forms and that the 'rules' surrounding them should remain fairly rigid, because they are excellent ways to practise our word skill Once we 'lower the standards' by accepting anything as one form or another, we remove the skill required Haiku was chosen as the main Form here because it seems to have been changed the most It is fair to say the 'Syllable count' probably doesn't work properly if it is maintained at 17 but is 11 correct? So I think we need to set a fixed number Right now anything seems to be acceptable outside Japan Perhaps rename them as English Haiku and Japanese Haiku with different counts for each?? Thankyou Jennifer and everyone else Very interesting reading had FUN Peter |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
What is this thread trying to accomplish? I have no idea. However it's one of the best examples of people trying to engage with each other in a civil and intelligent way that I've seen in CA for a while. And that, in my book, goes a long way towards "lifting" the forum. Good on all of ya who participated is what I say. M [This message has been edited by moonbeam (08-10-2007 02:05 PM).] |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Thanks, moonbeam. It may not have been a very focused discussion but for some of us it was a learning experience. For instance, I never knew McDonalds is pronounced Ma-ku-do-na-ra-do-su in Japanese. Can't wait to bring that up in a conversation about Big Mac and super-sized fries. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: I don't have any problems with practicing traditional forms. But when do you stop practicing and write a poem? quote: Perhaps. My own feeling is that certain aspects of the education system brought that about. The downside of this, however, is that a superior poem is overlooked because it doesn't follow the rules. Or that, one poem is considered superior solely because it follows the rules. All of this is a form of obfuscation. quote: Then set a fixed number, it doesn't matter. Again, Japanese is not English and it makes little sense to try to apply what they do to English or what we do to Japanese. Aspects of the tradition can be borrowed of course, but the idea that if a poem follows the Japanese tradition more closely, it is somehow innately better misses the point. To be fair, nobody said that directly, but it seems the hidden assumption. The solution isn't to quibble over syllable counts but to learn and write haiku in Japanese. By the way, the dominant form of poetry in Japan today is free verse. Moonbeam, A little starved for intellectual stimulation , aren't you? I have no problems with the academic question. It is interesting and certainly worthy of discussion. I have a problem when the academic question substitutes for aesthetic appreciation. That is, is the damn thing any good? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I don't agree with some of your reasoning. Just because we aren't writing in Japanese, doesn't mean the Haiku can now be anything we wish it to be. There are still qualities and quantities that come with the Haiku. English can't be Japanese, but it can have a form that comes closer and more accurately to the qualities and quantities of a Japanese Haiku, without forsaking what we need for English to work as English, and when it does, yes, it is more accurately a Haiku, because the Japanese Haiku is the foundation of this form. Using less syllables to be closer to the quantitative aspect of the Japanese Haiku, is by no means asking English to be Japanese. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
And the hidden assumption remains hidden to you. How does following the 'haiku foundation' make a better poem than one that does not? The best I can figure out is that you want to make a poem that creates the same sensation in a Japanese reader that a Japaense haiku creates. Great, but you'll be at disadvantage until you start learning Japanese and studying the tradition that lasts well over a thousand years (Well before there was such a thing as haiku). At the same time, you'll be avoiding the many Japanese who know little or nothing of their own tradition (Sound familiar?). I don't mean to discourage such an undertaking, but it's a little more daunting than changing the syllable count. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
The more virtues it retains of what a Haiku is the better. And the more virtues, in English still retaining good English, then the better it is as a Haiku in English. It is better as it more strongly and faithfully retains the virtues of a Haiku both in content and form. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Why would that make it a better poem? How many Americans would read it as a better poem because of those virtues? How many Japanese would read it as better? This is not to say that it would be bad. Indeed, it could be very good. I just don't see the connection that any of this necessarily leads to quality. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Because it actually stands by virtues, not by some offhand whim or gratification of readers It is not any fault of the art if it stands on virtues and traditions when people are become so ignorant that they no longer recognize and learn them, nor judge by them. Those that truly care, and faithfully study and learn, will recognize and appreciate the virtues and traditions of the art. 5-7-5 English syllables are longer than the 5-7-5 morae of the Japanese Haiku, and have more meaning-bearing parts, instead of just sounds. To acknowledge a few less English syllables and more variability among less, makes it more approximate to the 5-7-5 morae, is not saying that is the "all" that makes a Haiku in English better, but in conjunction with the other things that go into making a good Haiku, if they are done right well, then a more approximate form upon that only makes it even better and does more justice to the tradition of Haiku. [This message has been edited by Essorant (08-11-2007 12:48 AM).] |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
A little starved for intellectual stimulation , aren't you? Me, no. (I hope )The forum definitely, yes. M (Sorry, I just can't get the quote hmtl thingy working) |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
quote: |
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longte Member
since 2005-04-06
Posts 199Australia |
WOW Every one was busy whilst I partied .. . Feeling more in agreement with Essorant at this stage Mainly because I think she is seeing this more the way I have until now Yes Haiku were traditionally writen on one line, but that line was broken up 5/7/5 So if we decide to make them say 11 syllables, shouldn't we then also stipulate 3/5/3 for example?? Even after reading all the reading offered I cannot understand how a group of words that do not follow either of these ideals, can still really be a Haiku I may be totally wrong about this, but wouldn't that be virtually just a small bit of free verse having FUN again Peter Live It |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Apologies Peter for this hijack of your thread. Ess, I did in fact look at the page source code as my first port of call. As a result of that I've been using BLOCKQUOTE surrounded by the usual hmtl brackets and forward slash. Still doesn't work. M |
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longte Member
since 2005-04-06
Posts 199Australia |
Hi Moombeam No apologies needed at all This is great Very uneducated person here is is learning a lot through this From Brad 'The downside of this, however, is that a superior poem is overlooked because it doesn't follow the rules. Or that, one poem is considered superior solely because it follows the rules". This gets to the heart of it I do feel like disagreeing though Mainly because, no matter where it is read a superior poem will always stand out. There are many places to enter or read poetry, but, once again using Villanelle as the example, if we allow say three lines to be out of place in one competition, we must them allow at least that in every competition So then why can't it be four lines; or ten?? Forms of poetry such as villanelle have a required 'form' If we keep changing that "form" we remove the skill requirements from the "form" If we permit small changes how long before they become major changes As I said earlier, a great poem remains a great poem, but how can a villanelle, that does not fit the criteria of a villanelle still be a villanelle?? If we take this to the nth degree, we can have free verse winning a villanelle/phantoum/triolet competition This would end up destroying the required "exercise potential" of all forms Having fun Peter Live It |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Moonbeam You need the < hr > and < font size = 1 >quote:< /font > tags too! (But without the spaces inside the brackets ) The < hr > does the And the < font size = 1 >quote:< /font > does the |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
quote No, a fixed number of syllables doesn't work because we simply can't get an exactness of 5-7-5 Japanese morae by any particular number of syllables, because we are counting along lines that are quite different in English. All we may get is a count that more closely corresponds. The 5-7-5 count of syllables is generally too long, and therefore is becoming used, it seems, as a "maximum", and 11 syllables, as the "minimum", with a variable and flexible count anywhere between those numbers being the "ideal". |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Peter, now that you've done a lot more reading on haiku, what do you think of the first one you posted in this thread? Do you think it meets all the "criteria" you've learned about? If not, how would you change it? How would you write it 3-5-3? |
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longte Member
since 2005-04-06
Posts 199Australia |
Great question Jennifer Just to drop that into 3/5/3 quickly will not be that easy but I'll give it a go while trying to maintain the feeling I wanted Pelicans gliding black then white in perfect flight awkwardly landing Perfect flight Pelicans gliding Comics land Sorry Didn't have much time Will consider this tonight Having FUN Peter Live It |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: I think you've just unintentionally agreed with me, Ess. In Occidentalism, (Sorry, the author's name escapes me for the moment), it is pointed out that when Brecht borrowed from the Chinese dramatic tradition, it created a certain effect in Western audiences that was not the same as in Chinese audiences. This doesn't mean that the borrowing was somehow derivative but that borrowing is a way of creating new art forms rather than, well, borrowed art forms. I was actually talking about this last night with a group of people over some drinks (I know, I know, my so-called life. ). A friend pointed out that he spent some time with Japanese who thought English haiku were the funniest things in the world. "Not even bad" to paraphrase a point.Now, the more I think about it, it seems to me that the 5-7-5 structure has been around long enough in English to constitute its own tradition. This isn't that the 3-5-3 structure is bad, it's just that I don't see much point in arguing which is better. Why not simply accept both? Otherwise, we'll have endless arguments for traditionalism and real traditionalism -- Hey, it seems like we're already having those, aren't we? And yet, my point here is that the borrowing is not a respect for tradition (Japanese, Western, or whatever), but the creation of a new art form. And therein lies its value. |
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longte Member
since 2005-04-06
Posts 199Australia |
Brad Love the last bit of that Perhaps we should encourage that 5/7/5 and 3/5/3 as the only ways haiku is acceptable Leaving it open to anything between 11 and 17 syllables split however you want makes writing haiku incredibly simple In saying this I am not pretending to have any real knowledge of the nuances of Haiku Tokyo booming Concrete canyons cover land Grandfathers garden City grows Grandfathers garden concrete now I still prefer the first one, but only because you have to think a bit Having fun Peter Live It |
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