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The Pacifist
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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The Pacifist |
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wintertao Member
since 2003-11-17
Posts 366Okaloosa Island, FL |
I was there in 38 No English Lies No American Hate I was there in 39 No Corporate War It'll be just fine Millions of Jews, Millions of Russians, could have been saved instead you sat back smiled and waved. Pacifists. Thru out time, you find them there waving their sign- Find me buried In the Ukraine Come talk to me I know your name [This message has been edited by wintertao (12-26-2003 12:52 PM).] |
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Seth Member
since 2003-04-13
Posts 74Arizona |
Great idea. Now that you've opened the bottle, perhaps you should let this one breathe a bit.... The last 7 lines seem forced, I really don't like the ending. I saw it coming a mile off....(see sympathy for the devil)poor mick didn't do any better. In any event thanks for posting, I dig the title....it keeps you guessing as to the content. Maybe I am wrong but you seem to be passing judgement, you might lose a reader or two, try letting youi reader make their own minds up. Hitler and Stalin do pretty good jobs hanging themselves without our help, and I guess that goes for those who did nothing to stop them. Stop me, please somebody stop me!! Thanks for posting. ~Seth |
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wintertao Member
since 2003-11-17
Posts 366Okaloosa Island, FL |
yeah it may be a bit simplistic, probably needs some mango juice. I have toyed around with the idea of combining this piece with its anti-thesis one called drums of war in some creative way and thats probably what I'll end up doing, thanks for reading. If anyone has any thoughts on creative ways to combine these 2 go for it...thanks all Drums of War Pray to any Gods you fear And any you might love Make your peace my son To anything or one above Swords twist and turn Like souls on candlewicks Tonight we make our move Across the River Styx Drums around the fire call Like heartbeats deep in hell Call us to a regal death Welcome it and just as well As living on this earth Digging for our new grave Laughing each and everyday The little lights of love Seem to quickly fade away [This message has been edited by wintertao (12-26-2003 03:19 PM).] |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
"Simplistic?" Perhaps, but strong nevertheless. It makes a point that is all too often ignored by those content to simply sit back, watch and cackle while the greater histories get written by more sensible men and women, undeceived and undeterred by the shrill cacophony of the “pacifist” activists. Sid @ www.cynicsRus.com |
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Craw Member
since 2003-09-11
Posts 73Scotland |
Powerful piece. First part of the second stanza sounds a bit clumsy - something like 'millions there to be saved' would be more economical and would flow better. 'Waving their sign' seems contrived to fit the rhyme. Good taut ending. Don't agree with a word of the content- pacifists don't shoot people: it seems absurd to blame them for millions of deaths rather than the people with the manifestos/triggers/buttons/levers. A good deal more pacifist thinking at the Versailles Conference in 1919 might have avoided the horrors you describe. Seth- people didn't do much to stop Hitler or Stalin? Didn't Stalin, at enormous cost, beat Hitler and save Europe from fascism? Weren't 8 out of every 10 German servicemen fighting on the Eastern front from 1941-45 against the USSR? If this poem's against pacifism in the run up to World War 2, Stalin would have totally agreed with the sentiments. He thought pacifism was, at best, a ploy of the bourgeois to preserve their profits, and at worst, closet fascism. He spent the years 1933-39 trying to organise the British and French into confronting Nazi Germany. Surely, therefore, a hero in the terms of this poem. PS. While I'm ranting and gibbering can I say how irritating it is to any member (however reluctant) of the Celtic parts of the United Kingdom to hear it described, completely wrongly, as England, and its inhabitants or government as English. England ceased to be a political entity in every way in the year 1707. England, through tradition, may be a geographical area but it is not NOT a nation state. [This message has been edited by Craw (12-27-2003 06:23 AM).] |
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gourdmad Member
since 2003-12-01
Posts 136Upper Ohio Valley |
The biggest warmonger of the day, the US government, has stood by idly while the Chinese have systematically committed genocide in Tibet, hundreds of thousands killed. No wait, I'm wrong, they didn't stand idly by - they granted China "Most Favored Nation " status. |
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wintertao Member
since 2003-11-17
Posts 366Okaloosa Island, FL |
WoW all I can say is I'm delighted with all the passionate replies. Thanks Everyone. [This message has been edited by wintertao (12-27-2003 12:31 PM).] |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
First, I would distinguish between pacifism and appeasement on the part of Europeans and isolationism on the part of the U.S. You are giving pacifism a connotation it does not deserve. A more apt title would be The Appeaser rather than the Pacifist. Secondly, I have no idea where the Tibet statement came from, other than apparently it was an opportunity for a gratuitous slam on the U.S. Tibet certainly is a fine example of the U.N. and its abilities to foster world harmony. I liked the poem, but would change the title as indicated. [This message has been edited by Tim (12-27-2003 01:29 PM).] |
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Seth Member
since 2003-04-13
Posts 74Arizona |
Craw....I believe I said "those who do nothing to stop them" not no one stood up to Stalin or Hitler. As far as content is concerned I would like to see the two pieces joined, please post when you've got a good idea of what you would like to do as I would enjoy reading it. |
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mysticpoe Senior Member
since 2003-02-28
Posts 883 |
I thought the write to be extremely emotional. Emotion carried for a long time. This, the reader can feel immediately. The beginning and the middle display seemed Ok ( 1st and second stanza, if you will ). These sections of the poem gave me the feeling that the writer is totally in discord with the events involved ( 38, 39 ). Which the reader can easily become involved with; as we have already seen. I feel that the strenght of the poem lies at the ending stanza: Find me buried In the Ukraine Come talk to me I know your name This is very nice, I like the feeling of enigma which it portrays. I also feel that the rest of the poem would play out a little smoother; If the over-all content had this same feel. Enjoyed the read. wayne If nothing is something then everything is our thoughts and feelings and all that exists. [This message has been edited by mysticpoe (12-27-2003 04:42 PM).] |
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gourdmad Member
since 2003-12-01
Posts 136Upper Ohio Valley |
>I have no idea where the Tibet statement came from, other than apparently it was an opportunity for a gratuitous slam on the U.S. < Not the US, the US government. Point being that even warlike entites ignore blatant examples of mass slaughter. Stalin came to power not as a pacifist but as a violent responder to aggression. The AlQaeda was formed, funded, and trained by the US government as a violent response to aggression. >Tibet certainly is a fine example of the U.N. and its abilities to foster world harmony.< Say what? You must be confusing Tibet with some other country. Check out this brief history http://www.savetibet.org/Tibet/Tibet.cfm?ID=404&c=48 In case you don't want to bother, conclusion of this historical perspective is "To this day, the United Nations’ unfinished consideration of the question of Tibet remains one of the global body’s most notable and longstanding acts of omission." |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Can we say SARCASM?  or can we recognize it when we see it?  |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
Heck fire, I can't even get sarcasm right. In any event, in retrospect, I will back off of my comment on the title of pacifism, realizing my concept of pacifism is more restrictive than that of the general populace. I just was making a point that anti-war and what I consider a true pacifist are two separate views in my mind and they shouldn't be confused. Also, just as an aside, Stalin did not come to power as a violent responder to aggression nor did the U.S. (er excuse me, the U.S. government) form, fund and train AlQuaeda as a violent response to aggression. |
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gourdmad Member
since 2003-12-01
Posts 136Upper Ohio Valley |
I get it, more sarcasm. The CIA didn't fund AlQaeda, very funny sarcasm. http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO109C.html |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
Post hoc, ergo, propter hoc. |
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mysticpoe Senior Member
since 2003-02-28
Posts 883 |
My fellow poets, please. Have we lost focus with regards to the more important subject at hand here? wintertao does not deserve having his writing turned into some circus routine. I respect all of you and what ever critique you offer me. Granted, I'm not the best critic around, and neither is my poetry. But poets should help poets. I critiqued wintertaos' write, as a poetic write considering the form. Not for the content and meaning. Which I guess is OK. I'd probably be better off with my own writing if that was the case. I'm not acting defensively, I'm just suggesting that we keep our eye on constructive and helpful comments. wayne If nothing is something |
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rabab New Member
since 2003-12-23
Posts 8Ontario, Canada |
There is ofcourse some causes worth fighting for, But why is it always us who pay the heaviest price and not the one's at the top. So I don't think i would blame the pacifist for all the evils, but have respect for them as they would not have a part in an unholy exercise. Nonetheless it was a great poem |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Actually Tim, I thought you were pretty much spot on.  Wayne does make a valid point that we have strayed from the original intent and this discussion more properly belongs in Philosophy (or maybe The Alley?) But it did start out here as the result of a pretty darn good poem. So I don't think we are much out of line discussing the content and implications. That is, as long as the discussion does not get personal as these political debates tend to do. JMHO Pete |
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Seth Member
since 2003-04-13
Posts 74Arizona |
Hmmm...me thinks there be irony somewhere betwix the title and the posts. ~Seth smiles and hugs and love(at least I think)  |
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gourdmad Member
since 2003-12-01
Posts 136Upper Ohio Valley |
Pacifists and Appeasers Thanks to Gandhian pacifists who freed India From the thumb cutting imperialists of the gun boat diplomacy Thanks to civil rights pacifists who brought liberty to all even those segregated by bigotry Thanks to the union pacifists who shed the USSR from their shipyards making the fatal crack in the façade of the Evil Empire that sent it into history Shame on the appeasers who ignore the genocides of the Chinese in exchange for cheap goods Shame on the appeasers who accept a leader unelected by majority with his premeptive strikes concentration camps and corruption As for post hoc, ergo, propter hoc, that seems to be a red herring response. Although if I stretch my imagination to see why you might think it relevant, perhaps you thought I was implying that the CIA had some hand in 9/11. I do not at all think that. After the Russians were ejected from Afghanistan, the CIA abandoned the AL Qaeda, but the spawn of violence refused to die itself, and turned on its benefactor, the US. An example that violence begats violence. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Ok, this does seem to be leaning more and more toward a political argument. Enough! It is time to get back to discussing the merits of the original poem instead of promoting our personal political agenda. Take those other debates to the appropriate forums, the Alley or Philosophy. |
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Seth Member
since 2003-04-13
Posts 74Arizona |
The great oz has spoken! ~Seth |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
First of all, I agree with Craw... how can you possibly blame people who refuse to hurt anybody for hurting someone. It's a bit like blaming the woman for the rape, eh? First of all: 'I was there in 38 No English Lies No American Hate I was there in 39 No Corporate War It'll be just fine' Uh... you were where? Maybe my limited WWII knowledge is a hindrance here... but if you could be a little more illustrative it might help the reader out. 'Millions of Jews, Millions of Russians, could have been saved instead you sat back smiled and waved. Pacifists.' Hmm... the word 'pacifists' here seems to carry along with it the sour gall of an insult... name calling isn't likely to get you far with an audience... 'Thru out time, you find them there waving their sign-' Okay, so before, 'you' referred to the pacifists. Who is 'you' refferring to here? The quick (and unexplained) change is really confusing. 'Find me buried In the Ukraine Come talk to me I know your name' I think this ending is kind of cool... it provides a more solid backdrop. Is this supposed to be from a German soldier's point of view? |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Oz? |
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Always Lisa Member
since 2003-06-08
Posts 133 |
While the smell of burning bodies filled the air, people went about their everyday life. My grandfather told me that. Hey, I liked this poem. One reason that I liked it might have to do with the fact that I'm here to say that I like it. I can understand the views of the pacifists waving their sign but that sign wouldn't have helped to save a race of people that were almost extinguished from the planet. I liked your poem for many reasons. It's a small part of a bigger picture. Too bad that it turned into responder's political views... A touch of mine included. This German Jew tips her red hat in your direction. Nice work. Always Lisa |
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croyles Member
since 2004-01-27
Posts 102 |
if everyone in the world was a pacifist, there would be no war, remember that. |
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