If Truth I Could Write - pipTalk Forums

How to Join	Member's Area	Private Library	Search	Sanctuary		Login
Main Forums	Discussion	Tech Talk	Mature Content	Archives	A home without a wall, Our haven without ends, A circle we all call Our Family of Friends!

Not A Poet
Member Elite

since 1999-11-03

Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA

0 posted 2000-01-21 01:37 PM

Well, I really was going to do something different today. But then my friend Jim (at least indirectly) asked for another tribute to the goddess, a subject of which I must confess I never tire. And I must thank him for that.

I hope to not bore the rest of the forum with these and promise that next time at least I will have something different. So here is another and I must also thank our mutual friend W. Shakespeare for helping me with this one.

         If Truth I Could Write

Could not a soul believe my words henceforth
If I the whole which you deserve would tell,
And so I write but morsels of your worth,
Yet even that they'll think is false as well.
If I could just describe your gorgeous face
And write words worthy of your magic eyes,
The wonders of your smile, your charm and grace,
Then all who read my rhymes would swear, "He lies."
For none could ever have such charm as yours,
Nor beauty as I've never known before,
Your love and grace I'll treasure all my years;
I wish, in verse, to tell all this and more.
But such attempts at poems will be hopeless,
For all will say "There can't be such a goddess".

< !signature-->

Pete

     What terms shall I find sufficiently simple in their sublimity --
     sufficiently sublime in their simplicity --
     for the mere enunciation of my theme?
          Edgar Allan Poe

[This message has been edited by Not A Poet (edited 01-24-2000).]

warmhrt
Senior Member

since 1999-12-18

Posts 1563

1 posted 2000-01-21 01:56 PM

Pete,
I cannot comment on the technicalities of the sonnet, as I have not begun to write them well. This piece has a wonderful flow and wording ... basically, I loved it! It is so very lovely. Great work, Pete.

warmhrt

hoot_owl_rn
Member Patricius

since 1999-07-05

Posts 10750
Glen Hope, PA USA

2 posted 2000-01-21 02:20 PM

Pete...great work...oh, and you know by now I love sonnets. Just two minor edits to this one and you have yourself a sonnet in perfection

My suggestion would be to edit the following two lines line as I've shown:

"But such attempts at poems will be hopeless,"
to
But such attempts at po'ms will be hopeless

"For all will say "There can't be such a goddess"."
to
For all will say "there can't be such goddess."

Nice job

At the touch of love, everyone becomes a poet. ~Plato

Kevin Taylor
Member

since 1999-12-23

Posts 185
near Vancouver, BC, Canada

3 posted 2000-01-21 10:48 PM

OK... saddle up! We're gonna take a short ride on the sonnet trail!

If Truth I Could Write

-- Why reverse the structure here?

Could not a soul believe my words henceforth

-- First word is incorrect with the sense of the rest of the sentence. It seems more proper to say "Dare" or "Ere"

If I the whole which you deserve would tell,

--

And so, I write but morsels of your worth,

-- The comma is not needed after "so" and the henceforth and worth are not rhymes. A rhyme must include a vowel sound.

Yet even that they'll think is false as well.

--

If I could just describe your gorgeous face

--

And write words worthy of your magic eyes,

--

The wonders of your smile, your charm and grace,

--

Then all who read my rhymes would swear "He lies."

-- Consider "who'd" and comma after swear.

For none could ever have such charm as yours,

--

Nor beauty as I've never known before,

-- You've changed who you are talking too. Also use ever in lieu of never.

Your love and grace I'll treasure all my years;

-- Semi colon is unnecessary. Period is better.

I wish, in verse, to tell all this and more.

--

But such attempts at poems will be hopeless,

-- The meter here is wrenched. If you are going to use formal sounding (or archaic) language then "poems" is two syllables which I think you've done. But it could be better rendered, "at poems lacks all hope"

For all will say "There can't be such a goddess".

-- Perhaps "who" and arrange the meter.

All in all the poem flows fairly well. The message is classic. The only thing I'd have liked to see is fewer archaic constructs. Mind you, I like archaisms but I think this poem would have gained with a more modern nomenclature within this form to reinforce the eternal quality of your message.

Good one!

Kevin

"Poetry is, at once, what you get... and how you got there."

Not A Poet
Member Elite

since 1999-11-03

Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA

4 posted 2000-01-24 10:09 AM

Thanks to all of you for your comments and suggestions. But, as I've said all along, I'm here to learn so, on to the specifics.

Ruth, to make the changes you suggest would cause those line to read as follows:
   But SUCH at-TEMPTS at PO'MS will BE hope-LESS
   For ALL will SAY "there CAN'T be SUCH god-DESS."

Forcing the stress onto the second syllables of hopeless and goddess seems intolerable.

Kevin, your suggestions are more complicated.

   "If Truth I Could Write
   -- Why reverse the structure here?"

You're probably right here, but I just liked it that way.

   "Could not a soul believe my words henceforth
   -- First word is incorrect with the sense of the rest of the sentence. It seems more proper to say "Dare" or "Ere""

Rearrange the words as
   Not a soul could believe ...
and I think you'll agree the sense is correct. I believe the richness of the English language allows such construction as proper although it may not be every day usage. But then a sonnet is not every day stuff either.

   "And so, I write but morsels of your worth,
   -- The comma is not needed after "so" and the henceforth and worth are not rhymes. A rhyme must include a vowel sound."

Again, you're correct on the comma and I will remove it. Also, henceforth and worth are not perfect rhymes but they are near rhymes and they are sight rhymes. As far as the vowel sound, I think it is there.

   "Then all who read my rhymes would swear "He lies."
   -- Consider "who'd" and comma after swear."

I think who'd would work fine but I'm not sure it really adds anything. Maybe I'm just missing something here. Again, you're right about the comma.

   "For none could ever have such charm as yours,
   Nor beauty as I've never known before,
   -- You've changed who you are talking too. Also use ever in lieu of never."

I'm not sure I understand this. I've not changed who I am talking to and ever in place of never changes the context adversely.

   "Your love and grace I'll treasure all my years;
   -- Semi colon is unnecessary. Period is better."

I felt like period here would separate the following line too much from this one. The quatrain is really intended to be one thought. Though technically more suitable, this is supposed to be poetry rather than prose and I want to keep the quatrain together. If I'm wrong on this, I can stand to be educated.

   "But such attempts at poems will be hopeless,
   -- The meter here is wrenched. If you are going to use formal sounding (or archaic) language then "poems" is two syllables which I think you've done. But it could be better rendered, "at poems lacks all hope""

I really don't understand what you mean here. To me this line naturally reads as
   But SUCH at-TEMPTS at PO-ems WILL be HOPE-less,

Finally,
   "For all will say "There can't be such a goddess".
   -- Perhaps "who" and arrange the meter."
Again, I don't see what you mean by meter and to change "all" to "who" would completely alter the meaning of the line, adversely.

Thanks again for taking the time and trouble to read this and try to help me "get it right."

< !signature-->

Pete

     What terms shall I find sufficiently simple in their sublimity --
     sufficiently sublime in their simplicity --
     for the mere enunciation of my theme?
          Edgar Allan Poe

[This message has been edited by Not A Poet (edited 01-24-2000).]

jenni
Member

since 1999-09-11

Posts 478
Washington D.C.

5 posted 2000-01-24 12:40 PM

hi pete--

i liked this one alot, some of the lines really sing, and that's pretty good, in my opinion, lol.

some comments, though?  i have to agree with kevin on "henceforth/worth"... the vowel sounds (FORth and WERth) aren't really that "near", although, true, it is a sight rhyme (which, personally, i hate, lol).  i don't think "henceforth" really does alot for the first line, either -- the natural stress is on the first syllable, not the second, to my ear -- so i'd think about reworking the whole first line.

i also think you could find a better closing couplet here (i know you can, i've seen you do it in other pieces, lol).  hopeless and goddess is a weak rhyme (yeah, i know, i know, they both end in -ess, but the stressed vowel sounds in HOPE and GOD aren't even close), and the unstressed endings really make the piece end with kind of a whimper.  i'd think about changing to a true rhyme, perhaps keeping the feminine endings, but maybe changing both.  put 'goddess' inside one of the lines somewhere.  you will no doubt say that 'feminine' unstressed line endings are one of jim bouder's 'acceptable variations', which is true; and no doubt you can find some sonnet of shakespeare's that has a closing couplet just like this one; and maybe there's a thematic case for a 'weak' ending in this poem, but i just think you can do better here.

anyway, there's my 2 cents, worth considerably less on the open market, lol.

jenni

Poertree
Senior Member

since 1999-11-05

Posts 1359
UK

6 posted 2000-01-24 01:12 PM

You undersell your advice Jenni (are you REALLY a lawyer? ..lol) .. anyway you must be underselling because I agree with you

.

Especially, Pete, I agree with what Jenni says about the closing couplet, line 13 somehow seems almost clumsy. Otherwise though I very much enjoyed it.

Philip

jbouder
Member Elite

since 1999-09-18

Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash

7 posted 2000-01-24 01:49 PM

Pete:

Why are my ears itching all of the sudden? Oh, Jenni. I should have known. Lay off the "Jim Bouder's acceptible variations" thing, will you? They are not MY acceptible conventions (subjective) but, rather, acceptible conventions (objective). So there!

That said (and it behooves me to say so) I agree with Jenni's point regarding your final couplet. I think double rhymes work best when feminine endings are utilized. I understand that "goddess" is a central word in this poem and I'm also aware that (to my knowledge) a double rhyme to "goddess" does not exist. I would suggest you choose the next best thing: an word with an end rhyme that is also an eye rhyme such as "goodness":

"But such attempts would fail to show your goodness,
And all will say 'There can't be such a goddess'."

Sorry I'm so late getting to this. I read it after it was first posted but real life forced me away for a bit. I really enjoy these. So ... when's your next one coming?

< !signature-->

Jim

"If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther

[This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 01-24-2000).]

Not A Poet
Member Elite

since 1999-11-03

Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA

8 posted 2000-01-24 04:27 PM

Thanks Jenni, Philip and Jim for your comments and suggestions. (And Jenni, I would always love to buy your opinion for two cents.) It looks like we are reaching a concensus on the couplet as a weak ending. I will go back to the drawing board and see what I can come up with. And while there, I will also try to look into that "henceforth" thing. I have to agree it sounds a little off from the feel of the poem overall.

I like this poem and really enjoyed writing it, due to the content. But I wonder just how much time I should devote to correcting it because of its obvious connection to Shakespeare #17. I mean, it seems that no matter how perfected it becomes, it will still be a more-or-less "knock off." Anyone care to advise on that?

BTW Jim, I really like you idea of double rhymes with feminine endings. That would certainly help to make a rather weak ending much stronger. But I'm also convinced that you're right about the difficulty with "goddess."

Well thanks everyone. I'll see what I can do.

Pete

What terms shall I find sufficiently simple in their sublimity --
sufficiently sublime in their simplicity --
for the mere enunciation of my theme?
Edgar Allan Poe

jenni
Member

since 1999-09-11

Posts 478
Washington D.C.

9 posted 2000-01-24 06:11 PM

pete--

how much time you want to devote to this is totally up to you. yeah, i know this piece is alot like # 17, but i assumed you were doing this as an exercise, really. (you might recall a conversation we had some time ago about another poem out here.) the way i see it, you've come this far, you might as well finish it, make it as good as you can, get rid of any awkwardness you see in any line. everytime you do something well, it makes it easier for the next time, and the next, and so on. (and didn't your parents ever tell you "a job worth doing is worth doing well?"

)  on the other hand, if you're itchin' to write something else, skip the sonnet and go to it, lol.

just don't spend too much time trying to come up with a rhyme for "goddess", lol.

that's another 2 cents, please.

jenni

jbouder
Member Elite

since 1999-09-18

Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash

10 posted 2000-01-25 01:42 PM

Pete:

Been crunchin' my brain all night and day and all I can come up with for a double rhyme to "goddess" is "bodice". lol. Sorry.

Perhaps:

"They all may say. "There can't be such a goddess.
But none of them have seen what's 'neath your bodice."

Perhaps not. lol.

I agree with Jenni that just about any poem is worth doing right, even if it is modeled after another. If nothing else you learn from the experience. But I think this is more than simply a rewording of #17.

Later, Pete.

< !signature-->

Jim

"If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther

[This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 01-25-2000).]

Not A Poet
Member Elite

since 1999-11-03

Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA

11 posted 2000-01-25 02:56 PM

Jenni and Jim, certainly you are both absolutely right. If it was worth doing, it is worth doing right. I will go back to the figurative drawing board and fix it, possibly as a sort of back burner project.

Jenni, as usual, your advice is well worth the $.02

and Jim, I am ROTFLMAO, I can't believe (well maybe I can but I had to say that) that you lost a night searching for a double rhyme for goddess. That you actually found one is truly amazing, but you are special

And, I like your resulting couplet. Don't misunderstand, I don't think it quite fits with the feel of this poem, but I think it might be used effectively as a pickup line or something. Maybe in a poem for the Adult Forum. Naw, much too mild for there.

Well, thanks both of you for this latest advice. I'll see what I can do with it.

Pete

What terms shall I find sufficiently simple in their sublimity --
sufficiently sublime in their simplicity --
for the mere enunciation of my theme?
Edgar Allan Poe

	⇧ top of page ⇧
All times are ET (US). All dates are in Year-Month-Day format.