»
Archives
»
Critical Analysis #1
»
South Pacific Perspectives (Part 1: The Heavenly Wind)
| Critical Analysis #1 |
|
South Pacific Perspectives (Part 1: The Heavenly Wind) |
|
|
jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash 
|
Zeroes Swift drones escort The Heavenly Wind Over the Philippine Sea Gods free from human desire Pride of The Rising Sun The Divine Tempest Seeking, Searching, Hunting To die for the Emperor is to live forever Aftertaste of sake A warrior’s sash A warrior’s death Keep the plane steady A warrior’s sash A warrior’s death Death is light as a feather To die for the Emperor is to live forever Targets Sited below Backs to the sun In tight formation The Heavenly Wind descends To die for the Emperor is to live forever To die, to die, death, death Light as a feather But duty is Heavy as Lead To die for the Emperor is to live forever Flak, is that flak? My escort is Flaming debris Death is light as a feather But duty is heavy Heavy as lead Steady, Steady To die for the Emperor is to live forever Descending Diving, diving, steady Death is light as a feather Death is light, heavy, too Steady, steady, flames, blood, Follow the tracers, follow the tracers, To die for the Emperor is to die For the Emperor is to live I’m dying. Steady, steady Follow the tracers Closer, closer To die < !signature--> Jim "If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther [This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 01-18-2000).] |
||
| © Copyright 2000 Jim Bouder - All Rights Reserved | |||
|
Hawk183 Member
since 1999-12-24
Posts 130 |
Geez Jim.... I have to admit this one through me for a loop!  I like the subject and at first didi not like the unusual repetition...then I began to wonder if this was there to show the progression(maybe anxiety)of the pilot who is about to give his life for the Emperor? If this is the case, it makes this whole poem work for me, makes it come alive almost...if I'm wrong,oh well.(Whatever works right?) Assuming I am right...absolutely wonderful!Hawk |
||
|
haze Senior Member
since 1999-11-03
Posts 528Bethlehem, PA USA |
A free-verse KamiKaze...DAMN! JB I love the reverb...It plays like the elements of extremists' devotion to tradition Seeing this from the pilot's view is (mostly) new I think. Alot of war poems tell it only from our side...this is a very interesting turn. What a strong play of mixed emotions in the close...POWERFUL ORIGINAL PLAY HERE POET! DAMN! you're good! |
||
|
jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Hawk & Haze: Thanks guys. The mental/emotional progression of a [Japanese] pilot about to "give his life for the Emperor"? Yes. A picture of extremist devotion? Yes. But you're both missing something here. Thanks again. Jim "If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther |
||
|
J.L. Humphres Member
since 2000-01-03
Posts 201Alabama |
Jim, This one is powerful my man. The repition really helps to pull the whole thing off. I like the "death is light/duty is heavy" theme throughout. Then towards the end the humanity expressed; the pilot begins doubting? If not,perhaps I read a little too much into the last stanza. Either way good poem. I think you may be getting into this "right brain" stuff. J.L.H. Jason I...I have seen the best minds of my generation... --Allen Ginsberg |
||
|
warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Jim, How in the world do you come up with these themes?  This is powerful, and has a great deal of potential, just needs a few tweaks. I don't think the duplication of the 4th and 5th, and 7th and 8th lines is necessary. Bogs the whole stanza down. I would also leave out "I'm dying" near the end, and convey the Kamikaze's realization some other way. In a poem that is largely as stoic as they were (intended, I'm sure), those two words just don't seem to fit. Just my opinion, teach.The piece is colorful, and does a great job of conveying that stoic feeling. Nice work, Jim, warmhrt |
||
|
haze Senior Member
since 1999-11-03
Posts 528Bethlehem, PA USA |
JB if you mean the doubt that spirals down with him in the moment of death(?)...no I didn't...or how devotion to the emperor left as he faced his death and realized the waning visions of immortality...no I didn't If that's not it...you have to give me a clue...Please? |
||
|
Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Well, my friend, this does seem to be a new departure. An interesting theme. As Haze already said, we usually hear the "other side" of this story. As I try to place myself in that barren cockpit, I think these would have been almost exactly my thoughts. So to that extent, I believe you made your point. At first, I wasn't very interested in the subject and felt a little distracted by the repitition. But further thought tells me that this is most likely how the kamikaze had to keep his mind on his mission. I think I would have had to keep repeating thoughts of immortality in order to accomplish that also. I think the repitition is what really brings the poem to life, creates empathy for the pilot. One final thought, I agree with Warmhrt that "I'm dying" doesn't do justice to the rest of the piece. I don't have any suggestions though. I don't mean I would take it out as it is a necessary element. But maybe some better wording can be found, as she said, "more stoic." If anyone can do it, you are the one. Thanks and keep it up. Pete |
||
|
Hawk183 Member
since 1999-12-24
Posts 130 |
Jim, It seems the tables have turned poet...touche'  Ok...I think haze covered the other themes here...however...I am going to take a shot in the dark here and say that it is the Emperor who is in fact dying in this poem... I may be way off on this, please let me know. Hawk |
||
|
warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
It has something to do with the shapes of the stanzas .... warmhrt |
||
|
jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Hawk & WH: You're both cold, cold, cold. What your missing involves the "I'm dying" line. The clue is in the flak, folks. P.S. I just liked the shapes of the stanzas like this, WH. Very orderly (satisfied my pedantic muse). < !signature--> Jim "If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther [This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 01-18-2000).] |
||
|
Hawk183 Member
since 1999-12-24
Posts 130 |
Ok Jim... We know flak is a low velocitiy projectile... The projectile in this case being...the debris from "my escort." ok...For the life of me, I still am stumped..."I would like a lifeline please Regis" Hawk |
||
|
warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
"To die for the Emporer is to die for the Emporer is to live I'm dying." That is all one sentence, meaning, perhaps, that they were the living dead. They lived their live as if they were already dead. Naw. I give up. Put us out of our misery, please, Jim. warmhrt |
||
|
Ted Reynolds Member
since 1999-12-15
Posts 331 |
Quick, before Jim tells us what we've missed, I've got to say that it hardly matters to me what conceptual element I may have missed in this poem. I got so much from it in a gut emotional level that I don't feel at all like breaking it up into "concepts" and "intentions". This one, before all explanations, is a keeper. |
||
|
Ted Reynolds Member
since 1999-12-15
Posts 331 |
and I'm sure waiting for subsequent parts, as promised . . . |
||
|
Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Excellent poem Jim, Guess the coedine took ya on a little trip? I thought most of the repetition was wonderful though a couple of lines I just didn't dig. "heavy as lead" made me think of old gangst'a movies instead of a Japanese Zero. Also the questioning line, "Flak, is that flak?" I thought could have worked without "is that flak?". Also I thought it might have been interesting to see a tight formated haiku thrown into the poem around mid-poem or so...kinda got a haiku-ish feeling momentarily when I read the lines, "A warrior’s sash A warrior’s death Death is light as a feather To die for the Emperor is to live forever" Just an idea....either way the poem works and is an excellent offering to the Emporer or your fellow poets.About the what is missing from the critiques or guessing at the complete story line, I'm gonna say it's that the pilot did not make it too his destination...that being the deck of an allied ship, he instead was shot down before he got there. That's my interpretation. Anyways, a great poem, thanks for the read....anxiously awaiting what your drug induced mind will come up with next Take care,Trevor |
||
|
warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Jim, Another guess ... the kamikazes were anybody off the street, brain-washed, with little training, and ("the aftertaste of sake" ) they gave them quite a bit to drink, thus ... hold the plane steady, and the other rhetoric they'd repeat to themselves, then at the shock of realizing their plane was going down, they'd sober up, and it would hit them ....I'm dying. |
||
|
Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Jim As usual at the moment no time but i just had to drop by to say that despite the theme this was an enjoyable poem, for me it read very lightly and easily - perhaps just the short lines I dunno .. As for this mystery meaning its been driving me mad .. lol . The line "Flak is that flak?" has such surprise and questioning in it that I thought maybe the pilot was astounded to see "flak" and that maybe indicated he wasn't where he expected to be? Don't know enough about munitions, but does "flak" come from ships or ground based guns? My only other thought was somewhat fantastic and unlikely, and was that the change of wording in the lines: "To die for the Emperor is to die for the Emperor is to live I'm dying" indicated that the pilot was in fact on a mission to assasinate the Emperor and his failing would ensure the Emperor lived ...... LOL ... well i did say it was unlikely .. but then you are a surprising sorta guy Jim. Great read .. Philip |
||
|
jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
jim-- very interesting piece here. i see it as the flight path or trajectory, not only of a man (the pilot) but even of his whole society, his way of life, which, despite the chanting, the repetition, the incantation of belief, has been shot down, destroyed by war. he realizes at the end he is dying, he will not live; the Heavenly Wind has become a Divine Tempest and has consumed even itself. i also see here an element of the birth of an individual, which itself destroys the traditional ways of the empire; the 'swift drone', a warrior for the emperor, becoming an individual with realization and recognition of his own self (for example, "MY escort", "I'M dying", personal pronouns not used earlier in the piece), the transformation triggered by "flak", the bullets yes, but also more generically opposition, or criticism (as in 'stop giving me flak', lol); i might be reading too much into it there, though, lol. assuming that's what you were driving at, i'd say very well done indeed. i like trevor's idea of incorporating a haiku in the middle of the piece, i think it might help to build a more 'japanese' flavor to the piece, and lend more poignance to the (self) destruction of the traditional ways. but you've done pretty well here as it is. thanks, as always, for an interesting read. jenni |
||
|
Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Ok Jim, here's my last guess at the meaning that everyone is trying to find and I'm using your little e-mail as a reference point. "Is that flak?", now based upon this clue and the little information I know about the Zero pilots I'm going to say that this was a very young and naive man. From what I've heard about the Kamakazees (sp) was that most of them had never flown before and were trained specifically (and volunteered) for the job at hand. Now I'm saying that you are trying to portray a young man, who has no combat experience (hence the questioning of flak) and thinks that death is glorious and his place in heaven will be saved with his death for his Emporer and country. Also that deep down inside he doesn't really want to die (death is heavy) and is trying to convince himself that this is the right thing to do. If this isn't right then I don't know what else to think until ya let us into that complex world we call your mind Oly-oly-oxen-free, please...favour....me ask Jim favor, send me an e-mail with the hidden meaning that the rest of us heathens can't decipher. Thanks again, Take care, Trevor |
||
|
Ophelia Junior Member
since 2000-01-12
Posts 19 |
Jim, As I try and delve into this one, I hope you can follow me. I read what everyone else had to say, and then your replies, so maybe there was something I could read into it. My first question, does Emperor have a double meaning... not only for their leader, but for God. It seems that throughout the piece, the subject continuously reminds himself why he is there, and that many of the lines are self interruptions. The very begining of the piece opens with the planes 'escorting the Heavinly Wind', suggesting that they believe they have a more divine right. As does the line 'Aftertaste of sake' suggest that it is for heaven's sake that they sacrifice themselves. But once again, the pilot has to interrupt himself to 'keep the plane steady', even as he sees his 'escort' being shot down. The repeated lines read to me as if he is saying to himself that he wants to live, but the Emperor must live, and if that is to happen, then he must die. It is like they are protecting their rights... as we Americans talk to feely of, but are we willing to die for some of those rights we talk so eloquently of?? It is a cirlce that makes him immortal. But then there is a turn, as he descends, to carry out this divine right, he realizes, that while he was trying to justify these actions, he is the process of dying, that these are his last moments. It shows his humanity, and fear in his actions. To me, it reads as an insight to true devotion to a country, a belief, and to God. But one last question/point, I noticed that tracers is repeated... is that tracers as in the other pilots going down, or his line, his intention, his pathway? I think I am out of breath... and I loved it, totally creative, interesting, and inspiring.... even if I am way off. Ophelia |
||
|
J.L. Humphres Member
since 2000-01-03
Posts 201Alabama |
Okay Jim, After reading all of these guesses as to the secret meaning I'm very intrigued. I'm also very scared; are you going to make us wait on more of this series? I would expect no different. On reread I think I may have it...If I do it's in the first stanza. The Emperor is the pilot..."Pride of the Rising Sun". That would make this a futuristic not a historical piece. That is probrably too far gone, but I am a pretty gone cat.  Lost as Usual, J.L.H. Jason I...I have seen the best minds of my generation... --Allen Ginsberg |
||
|
jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Hey everyone: IF YOU WANT TO FIGURE THIS ONE OUT BY YOURSELF STOP READING NOW. (Always wanted to do that) I love everyone's interpretation of this. Perhaps this is what Brad meant by poetry having different meanings to different people. It's been fun being a spectator for a change. Firstly, it's not a "secret meaning" that everyone has been missing. It is more like a subtle irony. A few facts: "The Heavenly Wind" and "The Divine Tempest" are variations of English translations of the Japanese word "Kamikaze". "To die for the Emperor is to live forever" is rhetoric that was part of the Kamikaze pilot's indoctrination. "Gods, free from human desire" is a term the Vice Admiral who started the Kamikaze corps used to describe them (probably to drum up volunteers. "The Rising Sun" is representative of Imperial Japan. "Sake" [pronounced sock-ee] is a rice wine and, along with the presentation of the "sash", was part of the ceremonial "bon voyage" given for the Kamikaze pilot. "Death is light as a feather, duty as heavy as lead" is a variation of a Japanese proverb "Duty is a heavy burden, death is lighter than a feather." "Flak", by the way, includes both land and sea based munitions. In this case, they were shells fired by the American ships equipped with radar fuses so that, when they would get close to a target, they would explode sending "slow moving projectiles" into or in the path of the oncoming aircraft. Americans (always ingenius in developing more efficient ways to blow things up) developed exploding flak. Sorry for all the background detail but, in order to justify my writing free-verse, my pedantic muse required me to do extensive research before writing this. Warmheart and Not A Poet pointed out that the pilot could have been more "stoic". The "stoic" Kamikaze is the Kamikaze of legend and, more often than not, I suspect, the Kamikaze of myth as well. Japan couldn't afford to lose Her most seasoned, experienced pilots in suicide attacks. So volunteers were usually selected from cadets in training. Most were little more than boys who could barely keep a plane steady, let alone fly a combat mission. Many times the Kamikaze's suicide mission was their FIRST combat mission ("Flak, is that flak?" ... excellent job Trevor). Obsolete planes were often used, gased up for a one-way trip, and escorted by more capable, non-suicide aircraft (often the A6M Zero/Zeke fighter ... named after it's first year of production ... 2600 on the Japanese calendar ... by the way). My intention with this was to put you inside the head of a teenage Kamikaze pilot. The move from the stoicism at the poem's beginning to a picture of a very human boy at the end was intentional (the finality of the "I'm dying" realization). Beyond that ... was he trying to assassinate the Emperor? Did he hit his target or miss? Did he really die? What do you think? (It doesn't really matter). Maybe it will be revealed in Part 2 ... and maybe not. Jenni was "right on spot" (who says that?) on atleast one thing here ... the change transition from Kamikaze of myth to human boy began with the introduction of the personal pronoun "MY escort...". And to Trevor, as Haze would put it, extreme KUDOS ... except ... you failed to phrase your answer as a question ... sorry. Seriously, good job Trevor. That K-mart rifle is in the mail ... er ... UPS as I said before.Lastly (and most diabolically) I subjected you all to a HISTORY LESSON RIGHT UNDER YOUR NOSES *evil laughter*. Never knew history could be this much fun, huh? Later. P.S. Ophelia: Tracers were shells fired by the rapid-fire cannons that were kinda like flares. By following their trajectory, the gunners could see where their shells were going. The pilot was doing the reverse, concentrating on following the tracers in order to find his target. Jim "If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther |
||
|
Ted Reynolds Member
since 1999-12-15
Posts 331 |
1) Wow, Jim you made them (us) think *and* feel. You even managed to get yourself misunderstood in amazingly creative ways. Good show! 2) To add to the history lesson, the elderly officer who was in charge of sending off the kamikaze corps was probably the last fatality of World War II. Against orders, he took out one of his cadets' planes and plunged into the American fleet as they were cruising into Yokohama Bay for the surrender. Some of them *were* sincere in their fanatisicm. |
||
|
warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Jim, The piece was good, you're a very good poet, but as a history teacher, well, if I had to go through all this just to find an answer that wasn't even really there, I think I'd drop the class. Get back to phys- ed, pleeaase! warmhrt [This message has been edited by warmhrt (edited 01-19-2000).] |
||
|
Wordshaman Member
since 2000-01-17
Posts 110Illinois, USA |
JB-- I hate to say it, but if you've got so much going on in a poem that you find "clever", and yet you have to take an entire page to explain it to the readers, doesn't it become a joke so obscure that it's an inside joke between the writer and the writer-turned-reader five minutes after he's finished it? Positively clever and masterful, but nobody got it, did they? Also, people think that because they don't "get" something, it must be brilliant. Nobody had a bad thing to say about this poem. But was it not so much because it was masterful, or because they were putting so much of their brain power into trying to "get it" (because you TOLD THEM there was something to "get") that they ignored the poem itself? You had a wonderful sprung rhythm at points. I enjoyed it in that much. But it was so allusion-oriented that it was a jumble of words to me. I'm the average reader. Think of that. If I didn't get it, it's not so clever (unless you've got a PR team running around telling people to re-read it and "get" it). But that's just my opinion... Wordshaman |
||
|
jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
WS: Be more specific. You haven't said anything here of substance. All I read here are unsubstanciated assertions that (1) this is nothing more than an "inside" joke and (2) that I unfairly manipulated these readers. Those and the "PR team" statements seem to be more along the lines of ad hominem jabs than constructive critiques. Just my opinion.< !signature--> Jim "If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther [This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 01-19-2000).] |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Well, I suppose this is as good as time as any to jump into this one -- I see a debate brewing and can't stay away. First, Jim, I'm an as yet unfinished PhD candidate in Japanese studies -- whatcha doin' walkin' on my turf? Second, the point made about being a god is accurate. The Japanese emperor did not renounce his divinity until after the war was over; they were dieing for a god. Third, I believe it was Donald Keene (I could be wrong) who retold a story involving a Japanese officer who argued that dieing in the kamikaze flights was the ultimate action of being human by overcoming the fear of death. Later, a subordinate told Keene (maybe it was Keene) that it had nothing to do with nobility but that these soldiers whipped themselves into a frenzy of animal instinct in order to do what they did (what's not talked about is how many Americans and other soldiers did exactly the same thing). Fourth, in the thirteenth century a hurricane destroyed the Mongol invasion of Japan which was the original kamikaze (anybody know English history for an interesting parallel?). If anybody's interested I'll relate the story of a Kamikaze pilot who is now the current Grand Tea Master of the Urasenke Tea school. On the whole manipulation thing: that's your job as a writer -- to manipulate the reader. Jim did just that. Now, the only thing you might complain about is that he pushed his secretiveness a bit too far which leads inevitably to a certain, well, disappointment. Expectation will ruin any explanation. Ultimately, one has to realize that the writer is never really in control of the meaning of a poem; he has one interpretation but the words will lend themselves to another, equally plausible, interpretation that the writer never saw. We all have multiple reasons, feeling, instincts that we write from and we are not aware of all of them. It is impossible to be aware of all of them. I enjoyed Jim's explanation and his playfullness in this whole popular exhibition but I don't for a moment he can know the whole of his whole poem. Nobody can. that's enough for now, Brad PS Made a mistake in the nomencalture earlier. I know people who would shoot me for that completely idiotic school. [This message has been edited by Brad (edited 01-20-2000).] |
||
|
Wordshaman Member
since 2000-01-17
Posts 110Illinois, USA |
Well, you're right. I've taken liberties with the criticism process...well, my explanation for what I've said is this: I read your poem a few days ago. I had little if anything to say about it. The words used didn't evoke strong images to me. Now, once again, this isn't constructive criticism. The thing that makes me angry is that I haven't any to offer. I'm merely giving you my reaction as a READER. On a writing level, I honestly would have to give this more attention than I have to offer to say what could be done to change it. I apologize for this...but I know not what to say to "fix" the poem. (and fix may just be a misnomer for "Shaman-ize" the poem) But continuing on, I kept seeing the number of responses grow. I got curious, and I went back and re-read the poem. There was nothing more to the words themselves, but suddenly there were myriad meanings behind words that at first appeared scant and unevocative. What I guess I'm saying is that the idea was there, but the execution was lost in overuse of allusion and vague metaphor (metaphors that took the author holding the hand of the reader to understand). T.S. Eliot used allusion to the point of suicide in his poems. The difference is that I liked his words themselves before I made any of the connections to the allusions. Eliot used vivid words that referred to other works and ideas; what I guess you do here is use flat words that refer to other things. To be brutally honest, I didn't care enough about the words themselves to think of alternate meanings or ideas that you were alluding to. But again, I have nothing to offer you as far as editing or changing it, other than to say that this is my reaction as a passive reader rather than a poet or fellow writer. I have nothing to offer you, so you can ignore me to your heart's content. Wordshaman [This message has been edited by Wordshaman (edited 01-19-2000).] |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Just had to add, I was thinking of TS Elliot as well. While I think he's correct when it comes to "you don't have to understand a poem to like it" ideas (not his quote), I always thought he was a bit disingenuous when it came to some of the explanations of his poems. His comments on 'The Wasteland' and 'Gerontion' for example. Brad |
||
|
Ryan Member
since 1999-06-10
Posts 297Kansas |
quote: Oh, oh, I know this one. The Spanish Armada went to attack England. A smaller English fleet destroyed them with a little help from a storm. One of the tactics the English used was to set their ships on fire and sail them directly toward the Spanish fleet, thus disrupting the formation. The battle has been called one of the most influential battles of the millenium. Yay from random memories from European History. About the meaning of the poem. I read it and did like it. As Wordshaman says, it's kinda vague and abstract, but that's what I like in poems. I do though think that the secret meaning is a bit too secret, but I'm not going to go into that because I don't think a poem should have one set meaning. As I read it, if I believe it is about cows, then that is its meaning. If Brad reads it and thinks it's about Wookie suits (remember that, Brad? *grins*), then it's about that. Everybody can come up with their own meaning and that's my 12 cents. Finally, here are some quick things I think about the poem itself which everyone else have probably already said but I'm saying them again because I always come in late. Hmmm, that's a mouthful. Anyway, here goes. Flak, is that flak? My escort is Flaming debris This doesn't fit with the rest of the poem. Everything else is contemplative, and there is a song like quality to it (probably because of the repitition). This is too technical in my opinion to fit in with the rest of the poem's style. I see the same problem in: Targets Sited below but here, it's not quite as big of a problem for some reason. Last, these lines left my head running around in circles: To die for the Emperor is to die For the Emperor is to live I’m dying. I don't know if you should change it, but I just thought I'd tell you how I felt about it. Anyway, that's all from me. I did like it, especially because I have some interest in WW2, especially the Pacific Theatre. And now, that really is all from me. Ryan I like too many things and get all confused and hung-up running from one falling star to another till i drop. This is the night, what it does to you. I had nothing to offer anybody except my own confusion. —Jack Kerouac |
||
|
jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Everyone: Thanks for the attention you've all given this one. And I want to reiterate that I enjoyed all of the ideas you expressed in trying to flush out the irony that was what people were "missing" in the first place. Brad: What do you mean I'm walking on your turf? I've been a lay-student of Japanese culture for the better part of ten years, my friend. Granted, it's limited in large part to Gichin Funakoshi and Jigoro Kano but that counts for something, doesn't it? Maybe it merely means I am going to be more difficult than most to kick off of your "turf". I knew the Japanese Emperor was regarded as a diety by the Imperial Japanese. Your reminder, actually, helps me make better sense of the "Gods, free from human desire" rhetoric espoused by the Kamikaze corps founder. Regarding the Keene reference, I have little doubt that much of what you say is true. My purpose, in part, in writing this was to dispel some of the misconceptions people have about the "stoic" Kamikaze. I was prompted to do this after reading a magazine article in a 1946 addition of "Our Navy" magazine. My father served aboard a destroyer in the South Pacific during WWII and his parents subscribed to the magazine because it regularly published the names of sailors MIA, KIA and WIA. This article described an account of a scared, 17 year old Kamikaze pulled from the wreckage of his plane alive. I am aware of both the storm that thwarted the Mongol invasion and the defeat of the Spanish Armada. Your second explanation is much more helpful to me. "If anybody's interested I'll relate the story of a Kamikaze pilot who is now the current Grand Tea Master of the Urasenke Tea school." Please relate, relate!!! "On the whole manipulation thing: that's your job as a writer -- to manipulate the reader. Jim did just that." I agree with you here Brad in that part of our job as writers is to evoke thoughtful or emotive responses in readers. If I "took the manipulation too far" it was not intentional. I didn't want people to miss the irony. Perhaps it was allusion laden but many of the readers DID see the irony once they realized that this was not simply a description of the death of a stoic Kamikaze pilot. "I enjoyed Jim's explanation and his playfullness in this whole popular exhibition but I don't for a moment he can know the whole of his whole poem. Nobody can. " I agree with you here. I intended it to be that way, even as to MY understanding of the "whole" poem, as you put it, as it's writer. Your recent "meaning in poetry" rants are starting to sink in, okay? WS: "I read your poem a few days ago. I had little if anything to say about it. The words used didn't evoke strong images to me." I never expected it to for everybody. "Now, once again, this isn't constructive criticism" ... "There was nothing more to the words themselves, but suddenly there were myriad meanings behind words that at first appeared scant and unevocative. What I guess I'm saying is that the idea was there, but the execution was lost in overuse of allusion and vague metaphor (metaphors that took the author holding the hand of the reader to understand)." THIS, THIS, THIS IS CONSTRUCTIVE!!! I think you sell the readers short a little bit with your final parenthetical but for the most part this is a valid, negative criticism. My word choice, however, was purposely "flat" in places. These were intended to be thoughts of a relatively uncomplicated youth who is about to die. The rhetoric, of course, is flowery but I thought that the pilot's "waxing poetic" during his final descent would seem less than genuine. This is most certainly not a "Charge of the Light Brigade" (I'm sure you agree with this ). Do you understand my meaning here? About the holding hands thing, the "history lesson" was surplusage (not necessary to the realization of the irony) but I enjoyed learning the stuff and I thought others might be interested in what I dug up also.Ryan: "Oh, oh, I know this one. The Spanish Armada went to attack England." You beat me to the buzzer. Good job. But you, like Trevor, forgot to phrase the answer as a question. "[Flak, is that flak?] This doesn't fit with the rest of the poem." This was a transition. Our pilot was suddenly shocked out of his "contemplation" by the disintigration of his fighter escort under enemy fire. "Last, these lines left my head running around in circles:" [To die for the Emperor is to die For the Emperor is to live I’m dying.] Good. I meant them to. It could be read "To die for the Emperor is to die" corrected to "...to live" by the pilot or "To die for the Emperor is ... to die for the Emperor is to live". I wanted the meaning to be jumbled for the reader as the thoughts of the pilot's were jumbled prior to his imminent death. "I did like it, especially because I have some interest in WW2, especially the Pacific Theatre. And now, that really is all from me." I recommend "Victory in the Pacific" by Dunigan. Excellent read on the Pacific campaign. Thanks again for all your responses. < !signature--> Jim "If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther [This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 01-20-2000).] |
||
|
jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
i have to agree that this a pretty 'flat' piece, which is fine, and which i guess you intended, jim. but one reason why i was thinking the piece was really more about the death of the old, traditional ways was, i think, because i really didn't see much of a human element here. i didn't (and still don't) see the pilot as a frightened teenager at all. sometimes things like this are the reader's fault, the words are there but, for whatever reason, they fail to trigger something; but sometimes the writer just didn't put the words there. i think the latter's probably the case here if you wanted the reader to see your interpretation. but like i said, i still thought this was an interesting piece, and it did in fact trigger some response from me and others, so there ya go. |
||
|
Vincent Spaulding Member
since 2000-01-16
Posts 59 |
Your poem is powerful and historically enlightening. I feel, however, that it loses its footing in the "I'm dying" line. This line superimposes a Western mindset, which values life, on a Japanese pilot who does not. |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Jim, Boy, you sure can start'em, can't you? Vincent, I have no idea what you're talking about here. The Japanese value life in much the same way as the 'West' does. No, there are differences in general approach perhaps but the basics still remain the same. Don't know if you read my post (it was pretty far down) but what I was trying to show is that when one of 'our' soldiers does exactly the same thing, it is considered an act of heroism. When the 'enemy' does it, it is considered strange, unreal, and alien. Oh, and as long as were recommending books on the general subject of The Pacific War (the Japanese term): 'War Without Mercy' by John Dower. Thanks, Brad |
||
|
jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
While this thing is back up at the top I'd like to add something to what Brad mentioned to Vincent about the Japanese value of life. Brad is correct in pointing out that the Japanese value life in much the same way Westerners do. What the Allies were not prepared for in The Pacific War was an enemy that would rather die than surrender. The Americans first encountered this on a large scale at Guadalcanal (sp?). Rather than surrender, many of the soldiers rallied themselves for one last offensive (banzai attack). These suicide attacks did not have to do with a different view of the value of life but, rather, they had to do with a different view of honor (and dishonor). So, in answer to you Vincent, a Japanese person fears death as much as any other person. This is not a "Western" mindset, in my opinion. It is a human mindset and, therefore, I do not think this poem loses any footing on those grounds. On the contrary, this poem was based on an actual account of a Kamakaze pilot who survived his suicide run and was pulled from his plane alive. The 17 year old pilot was, amongst other things, afraid to die. Brad: Thanks for the book reference. I will buy this one, you know, but I am still doing penance to my wife for buying one of those books on meter while still on book restriction. Jenni: I think Brad has made his point when he suggested that a poem could be much more (and, I suspect, much less) than the writer of the poem actually intends it to be. Your interpretation is fine. The parallels you draw from the Kamikaze's example are valid parallels. Thanks, everyone, for your interest. Later. Jim "If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther |
||
|
warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Going for a record here, Jimteach? I'll help ya by adding this since I have no interest or knowledge in Japanese history. |
||
|
|
⇧ top of page ⇧ |
|
| All times are ET (US). All dates are in Year-Month-Day format. | ||
