Truth Or Lies (corrected for Brad, Jim & Roxane)

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Not A Poet
Member Elite

since 1999-11-03

Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA

0 posted 1999-12-17 09:59 AM

This is the original version for comparison. I have added the corrected version at the bottom as a new reply. Thanks.

Now do I lie in praising all your rarest charm and beauty?
Or you instead, in swearing that I speak thereof untrue?
And is that fair facade to suit your social modest duty,
Or do my spellbound eyes behold you as I want them to?
I say that I am old -- or well beyond my youthful prime --
To which you smile, and claim I'm but reflection of your youth
Are these endearing lies we tell each other every time,
Or can it be that, from our hearts, we each do tell the truth?
I've said I'll never ask of you to give more than you want,
But love, in truth, I want more than you say you want to give;
You tell me that just friends are we, that lovers be we can't,
But then you smile, and cast that look for which I die ... or live.
Our bodies touch, and we may kiss, and thus we realize
That we don't know, or truly care, if these be truth ... or lies.

< !signature-->

[This message has been edited by Not A Poet (edited 01-04-2000).]

haze
Senior Member

since 1999-11-03

Posts 528
Bethlehem, PA USA

1 posted 1999-12-17 10:01 AM

beautiful emotions...well expressed (May I have a tissue please?)...this is sure to touch anyone's heart...REALLY Nice Work Poet!

Misty_Skies
Junior Member

since 1999-12-13

Posts 17

2 posted 1999-12-18 03:53 AM

Not A Poet,

That was a wonderful poem...I love good peotry, and that was very moving. I don't know much about form, and the overuse of cliches...But that was very, well touching. I have to agree with Haze...Beautiful.

Misty

Trevor
Senior Member

since 1999-08-12

Posts 700
Canada

3 posted 1999-12-18 05:26 AM

Hello,
I guess Jim's sonnet thing is catching on...or did ya feel like showing up Brad

The story is nice but, like a large majority of love poems, it came off a little cliched.
It's near impossible to escape cliches...it's not our fault that other poets came before us, and in sonnets it seems to be an even more difficult task. I've tried to write a few myself and found I kept falling back into cliches, so basically I'm trying to say I don't know how to fix it...that is if it even needs fixing.

I thought the poem was okay but to be honest even though I liked it I thought it lacked some "flair". Don't know if this critique is very useful...sorry...Anyways thanks for the read and take care,
Trevor

roxane
Senior Member

since 1999-09-02

Posts 505
us

4 posted 1999-12-18 03:27 PM

this is a repost, is it not?  if i'm not mistaken, i liked the other one better, because it had a stronger ending, a better conclusion.  i like the rhyme in this, but i think that shorter lines, or a looser rhyme, only because it is so tight, it's almost difficult to read at points.

Now do I lie in praising all your rarest charm and beauty?
Or you instead, in swearing that I speak thereof untrue?
And is that fair facade to suit your social modest duty,
Or do my spellbound eyes behold you as I
want them to?

this part makes me stumble a bit, but that may just be me.  there is a lot of beauty in these lines, but it takes a couple readings to find it.

I've said I'll never ask of you to give more than you want,
But love, in truth, I want more than you say you want to give;
You tell me that just friends are we, that lovers be we can't,
But then you smile, and cast that look for which I die ... or live.

to me these are the best lines...they aren't as full of adjectives, which i think is very good, because they are simple, and eloquent.  this is still a great poem.  would you repost the original so that i could read it?
thanks

jbouder
Member Elite

since 1999-09-18

Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash

5 posted 1999-12-18 03:31 PM

I've never been a trend setter so you must be trying trying your hand at showing up Brad.

Lets begin with structure:

First of all, check your email.  I sent you a link to a post in Nan's workshop that does an excellent job of describing the form and structure of sonnets.

Your rhyme scheme, for the most part, is that of a Shakespearean Sonnet (abab/cdcd/efef/gg).  The end words "want", in Line 9, and "can't" in Line 11 are not perfect rhymes but this isn't something I have problem with, personally, mostly because they are eye rhymes.

Shakespearean Sonnets are written in iambic pentameter (five metrical, two-beat feet with a rhythm of "da-DUM/da-DUM/da-DUM/da-DUM/da-DUM".

Your sonnet averages 14 to 15 beats per line and its meter is, at times, not completely iambic.  Your first line, for example:

"NOW do / i LIE / in PRAIS / -ing ALL / your RARE / -est CHARM / and BEAU / -ty?"

or

DA-dum/da-DUM/da-DUM/da-DUM/da-DUM/da-DUM/da-DUM/da

OR maybe this is one of those instances where "NOW do" can be "now DO" also. (Brad, what have you started!?!).

"Now" in the first line followed by "Or" in the second causes me to lean toward accenting "NOW".  But I may prove to be the only one.

Sonnets, for me, are like puzzles.  You have the picture of what you are trying to put together in your mind but the puzzle pieces are pre-cut.  I find it very challenging to try to make the language in a particular line fit.  Sometimes, when one particular "piece of the puzzle" didn't fit, I was forced to throw it away (even when I liked it very much) and try to find a word or phrase that worked better within the structure of the sonnet.

Some of the lines in your poem seemed a little forced, perhaps in an attempt to preserve the meter.  An example:

"You tell me that just friends are we, that lovers be we can't,"

Maybe by changing to:

"You tell me that we are just friend but lovers we cannot"

You can preserve the meter without having to force it as much but some work would then have to be done to reduce the number of beats and to repair the rhyme scheme. The latter shouln't be too difficult to do in the Shakespearean format (the change in one end rhyme in a Shakespearean sonnet only effects one other line as opposed to three lines in other sonnet forms).

Now to content:

I found the subject matter of the sonnet moving.  One particular passage (mentioned below) I thought to be written and communicated exceptionally well.

I, personally, have little problem with cliche in love poetry.  I was recently reading some of Shakespeare's sonnets and noticed that he wrote about love from just about every thinkable direction.  Since, I think, love, in poetry, is written about more than any other emotion, it stands to reason that every love poem is somewhat familiar in form or content.  This sonnet is vaguely reminiscent of Shakespeare's "When my love swears she is made of truth ..." (my cursed collection doesn't number his sonnets)in its line "And wherefore say not I that I am old?"  Did it inspire you in anyway?  Just wondering.

Oh, and I have to point this out:

"But then you smile, and cast that look for which I die ... or live.
Our bodies touch, and we may kiss, and thus we realize
That we don't know, or truly care, if these be truth ... or lies."

The final three lines are beautifully written.  It would almost be a shame to shorten them to fit the prescribed pentameter of a sonnet.

Keep in mind that I am relatively new to sonnet writing myself.  If you think I am wrong about anything I mentioned call me on it and I'll look into where I may have gone astray.

TREVOR:

I think I have an idea as to how we can escape cliche as it applies to our poetry as "a whole" (it seems to me to be nearly impossible to write traditional love poetry without have some cliched or cliche seeming lines).  I think by personalizing the poem, writing about a particular experience of feeling while it is fresh in the mind, helps to personalize the poem or sonnet in a way that adds a kind of signature or fingerprint to the work.

Anybody else, let me know what you think about this.

[This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 12-18-1999).]

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

6 posted 1999-12-19 08:49 PM

You know, I agree with Trevor about ninety percent of the time but here, for the most part, I enjoyed reading this poem. I like the ambiguity you've presented and the polarities (truth/lies; age/youth; friendship; romance) show a certain 'reality' for me. Love is tough and I think you show that without the romantic yearning that seems to accompany this type of poetry.

I said for the most part but there is one line that just almost made me want to throw my monitor across the room. Jim's already pointed it out but stuff like that just makes me want to scream. You've got a good one going here but please, please rewrite that line so that it's more in line with the rest of the poem.

Jim,
I think you're absolutely correct about avoiding cliche. I also think it's a better, more interesting read, the more specific and personal you get. Just call me a peeping Tom.

warmhrt
Senior Member

since 1999-12-18

Posts 1563

7 posted 1999-12-20 09:20 AM

I think you are very much a poet! It is my opinion that if a poem speaks to you, is rich with emotion, flows over the tongue...then who cares if exact rules are not followed. You could have pulled these words from my soul, and seeing them almost drew a tear. Very good read!

warmhrt

Not A Poet
Member Elite

since 1999-11-03

Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA

8 posted 1999-12-20 12:52 PM

First, a big thank you to all of you who have commented. And hugs and kisses to Haze, Misty and Wrmhrt, who had nothing but good to say, although you are much too generous.

Now down to the more serious part.

Trevor, certainly your critique is useful. You keep reminding us all that cliche should be avoided, and I agree and will continue to try. But I have seen an estimate that something like 300,000 Elizabethan sonnets have been written, the vast majority of which are of love. It may be that almost anything one can say has already been said in some way (see Jim's comments). As for "flair", I know I'm not a Shakespeare or Drayton but I try to do my best. Thank you for your help.

Roxane, your memory would seem to be much better than mine. I first started to answer that this is not a repost but then thought I should check first to be sure. Imagine my embarassment when I found it in the archives just last month.

Well I won't repost it as I really like this version much better, but of course, you know how to find it. Honestly, I stumble a little over the 4th line too but haven't been able to rewrite it to my satisfaction. I guess that's what this forum is for. I'm really pleased to liked it overall as your opinion is important to me.

Jim, Freshman English was a long time ago but I seem to remember the sonnet definition to be something like "14 lines, USUALLY iambic pentameter, grouped in 3 quatrains with alternating rhymes, and a closing couplet." The emphasis is mine, of course. Anyway, I didn't really claim this to be a sonnet anyway (my final escape if all else fails)

(Damn I punched the wrong button here so will have to come back and finish later.)

[This message has been edited by Not A Poet (edited 12-20-1999).]

Not A Poet
Member Elite

since 1999-11-03

Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA

9 posted 1999-12-20 01:22 PM

Now to continue, Jim. Your second interpretation of the first line would be correct:
    "now DO / i LIE / in PRAIS / -ing ALL / your RARE / -est CHARM / and BEAU / -ty?"

although DO should not be overly emphasized, which seems to come naturally to me? And on the line you referred to as forced:

    "You tell me that just friends are we, that lovers be we can't,"

I thought I liked that one but with both you and Brad complaining, it probably needs some work. I understand why you complained. As for the rest of your comments, THANK YOU. Your opinion is also very important as I really admire your work. And this was certainly written as a personal message.

Brad, I'm glad you were able to restrain yourself, I would hate to cause you to break a perfectly good monitor.

I assume you refer to the line mentioned above to Jim. As I said, since both of you find it ofensive, I guess I'd better work on it. When finished, if it seems worthy, with your permission as moderator, I'll repost it.

Thanks again to all of you. This has been an educational experience. I hope I can learn from it. OBTW, I have another sonnet (proper iambic pentameter) which I will try to post soon. I am currently struggling with a couple of words which I don't like.

[This message has been edited by Not A Poet (edited 12-20-1999).]

jbouder
Member Elite

since 1999-09-18

Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash

10 posted 1999-12-20 01:57 PM

I think you're right about the USUALLY iambic pentameter thing. My bad.

Jim

"If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther

Poertree
Senior Member

since 1999-11-05

Posts 1359
UK

11 posted 1999-12-20 02:41 PM

Just like to say I agree almost completely with Brad's post (what's wrong with me I must be ill) ... I too hated THAT line (actually I had a hard time even understanding it). Overall though I liked the poem and I learned more from the ensuing posts about sonnets than I could get from my "sonnet book" ... so the Forum's working Brad ! Now I need to start on my first sonnet .. help!

Philip

Fairy Colours
Member

since 1999-12-02

Posts 169
Sunrise,Fl,US

12 posted 1999-12-20 11:39 PM

I thought this was pretty. Why do they always just want to be friends?

--A Little Fairy--

Not A Poet
Member Elite

since 1999-11-03

Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA

13 posted 1999-12-22 10:47 AM

Roxane,

I just realized that I didn't respond to your comment about "fewer adjectives".

I think that might be one of the more important lessons I learned from this discussion. I had never heard that before, but I think I understand to what you refer. Adjectives are quite easy to just stick in as fill to make the meter, aren't they. As I think back now, I can see where I have done that many times when it would have been preferable to completely rethink a line or two.

Actually, this became obvious as soon as I saw your suggestion. Thank you very much for opening my eyes.

Pete

Not A Poet
Member Elite

since 1999-11-03

Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA

14 posted 2000-01-04 10:19 AM

Here is the corrected version. I have made a small wording change to line 4 which Roxane found a little awkard (I did also) and this seems to flow better. The main change is a rewrite of line 11. Jim, Brad and Philip all expressed distaste at that line which I confess I rather liked. But that is no longer the case (see, I have learned something at Passions

) The new line probably even comes closer to saying what I originally intended and I believe it repairs the problem. After studying it I like it much better than the original, because it eliminates the convoluted wording, fits better with the rest of the poem and gives a better message. Finally, I corrected a couple of minor punctuation errors and changed But to And at the beginning of line 12. Thanks to all of you for your advice on this thing. So here it is.

Truth Or Lies

Now do I lie in praising all your rarest charm and beauty,
Or you instead, in swearing that I speak thereof untrue?
And is that fair facade to suit your social modest duty,
Or do these spellbound eyes just know you as I want them to?
I say that I am old -- or well beyond my youthful prime --
To which you smile, and claim I'm but reflection of your youth.
Are these endearing lies we tell each other every time,
Or can it be that, from our hearts, we each do tell the truth?
I've said I'll never ask of you to give more than you want,
But love, in truth, I want more than you say you want to give;
You say we would be lovers but for other's sake we can't,
And then you smile, and cast that look for which I die ... or live.
Our bodies touch, and we may kiss, and thus we realize
That we don't know, or truly care, if these be truth ... or lies.

[This message has been edited by Not A Poet (edited 01-04-2000).]

jbouder
Member Elite

since 1999-09-18

Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash

15 posted 2000-01-04 10:36 AM

Pete:

I like the changes you made and I, personally, don't mind the use of near rhymes (want/can't) in a sonnet. I would change one thing, however ... you are grouping me with Brad and Roxanne ... an undeserved honor.

Jim

"If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther

Not A Poet
Member Elite

since 1999-11-03

Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA

16 posted 2000-01-04 01:10 PM

Jim, my friend, I have read some of your work and you sell yourself far too short!

Pete

roxane
Senior Member

since 1999-09-02

Posts 505
us

17 posted 2000-01-04 05:04 PM

pete-
i like this a lot.  it was a simply beautiful poem that you molded into perfection.  (jim, last night i posted on your "interstate musings" and then my computer just 'performed an illegal operation' and shut down, so i will get to it tonight) there is only one thing that i see, and this is quite minute.

I've said I'll never ask of you to give more than you want,
But love, in truth, I want more than you say you want to give;
You say we would be lovers but for other's sake we can't,
And then you smile, and cast that look for which I die ... or live.

this is my favorite stanza still, and i think that since you have kept the a-b-a-b rhyme scheme throughout, you should here.  obviously want and can't don't rhyme.  close, but as the rest of your poem flows smoothly with flawless rhyme, i think you should, but only if you feel it necessary rethink that line.
the couplet at the end is triumphant, and as the rest of this poem, lyrical.
the changes you've made well suit this poem, and i think it's about time now that you changed your "not a poet" to "quite a poet".  that would suit you better.

since you've done so well on this, i expect some help when i post my first sonnet. (i can't believe that i thought villanelles were hard! compared to sonnets, i'd rather write them)
this is a fine piece, poet.

Not A Poet
Member Elite

since 1999-11-03

Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA

18 posted 2000-01-05 11:48 AM

Hello again all. I hesitate to bring this one back up to the top again, but I felt I had to sincerely thank all of you wonderful poets and friends who helped me so much with this sonnet. This truly was a work of love when I originally wrote it and you have helped me so much with its wording that I simply don't have any way to thank you. Now I just wish I could give this corrected version to her for whom it was written. ~~wipes away a small tear here~~

Roxane,
About the lines you reference,

I've said I'll never ask of you to give more than you want,
But love, in truth, I want more than you say you want to give;
You say we would be lovers but for other's sake we can't,
And then you smile, and cast that look for which I die ... or live.

I quite agree about the sight-rhyme of want/can't not being as desirable as a full-rhyme. But I simply cannot give up the first, second or last lines of that stanza. In fact, I can't even make myself change a single word. My problem is with the third line. I have tried but have been unable to come up with a suitable wording which also rhymes with want. So I thank you for your input and I'm glad you find it to be only a slight problem as I'm afraid I simply don't have another option but to bend this rule a little.

To think that the extremely talented Roxane would ask for my help at sonnet writing, even in jest, simply makes my day. What do I mean day? This must make at least a month!

Again, thank you all so much.

Pete

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