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Stephanos

Member Elite

since 2000-07-31

Posts 3618
Statesboro, GA, USA

0 posted 2000-09-17 03:52 PM

Words which dance like fire
and pique the mind with wonder
create poetry

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

1 posted 2000-09-17 06:24 PM

Okay, you've told me what a poem should do. Now write a poem that does that instead of a poem that is telling me what it does.

Just an opinion,
Brad

Marge Tindal

Member Empyrean

since 1999-11-06

Posts 42384
Florida's Foreverly Shores

2 posted 2000-09-17 07:42 PM

Stephanos~
This is as complete a Senryu as one could
make it ... I really like the concept.
Your syllabic count is perfect for the 5-7-5 format.

Haiku is the Japanese poetry form which requires
that the subject be of nature or a moment
of wonder in nature.

Senryu is the form that allows for feelings
and other thoughts to be presented.

EXCELLENT presentation of a Senryu.
I would encourage you to post it in Open #9
or The Corner Pub where it will be received
quite graciously.
~*Marge*~

~*The pen of the poet never runs out of ink, as long as we breathe.*~
[email protected]

Stephanos

Member Elite

since 2000-07-31

Posts 3618
Statesboro, GA, USA

3 posted 2000-09-17 10:47 PM

Brad,

I recieve your suggestion graciously. And indeed I see your point. If all poems were only about what poetry should do and none simply "did it", then what's the use right? But I ask were there never in poetic history any good poems about how poems should be written? Is there no such thing as good prose which delineates how good prose should be written? I felt my poem did both (demonstration and description) though it's okay if you disagree.

But yes, I'll take you up on your suggestion... I also am extremely new to Haiku (and Haiku-like styles). Just sticking my toes in that oriental river, that's all.

Thanks for your comments (marge too!)

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

4 posted 2000-09-17 11:04 PM

Thanks Stephanos,

I was beginning to wonder if I had offended you in some way. That was never my intention. In answer to your question, yes I think there are poems that address this issue and do it quite well. A poem by Seamus Heaney (perhaps his most famous) where he compares the labor of his father to the labor or writing immediately comes to mind. The trick here is you're trying to combine an extremely difficult form with an extremely diffecult subject. Haiku or Senryu look easy but, it seems to me, prove difficult to deliver the 'Wow!' value that I think they should. I didn't get that here.

You think it does.

Marge apparently got it.

Great.

When it comes to this form, I honestly believe it's better to stay as concrete as possible avoiding similes and letting the reader construe the associations on his/her own ground. I think this can create more of an echo to the piece.

Thanks again,
Brad

Stephanos

Member Elite

since 2000-07-31

Posts 3618
Statesboro, GA, USA

5 posted 2000-09-17 11:15 PM

No offense taken whatsoever.

I am appreciating all you are saying (and learning from it also!)
I guess if you just want  "Oh that was a beautiful poem!" type responses you don't post in Critical Analysis right?
I have very little true interaction with other poets and so this is so cool to me.

On some reflection, I agree with you.  That haiku (though okay) really didn't have the bite that it should have had.  It was rather bland.  I guess it will take some practice in this style.  I am accustomed to having many lines and unlimited flow to express my thoughts ( I sometimes have alot of threads of thought weaving throughout my poetry to create my end).  This is a whole new animal for me to tame.  You are right in that it looks easy.  But it's not so easy is it?
I am open to any more advice on writing Haiku that you may have.

If you have any you could post to demonstrate what you are saying that would be great.  No pressure. just if you get time.

Thanks.

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

6 posted 2000-09-18 11:40 PM

It just so happens I've got a few lieing around here. Only seems fair to go after mind as well.

Brad

PS I have an old acrostic somehere around here too (not yet posted). I'm not saying it's good, I'm just saying it's an acrostic.

jbouder
Member Elite

since 1999-09-18

Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash

7 posted 2000-09-19 12:33 PM

Stephanos:

quote:
(1) But I ask were there never in poetic history any good poems about how poems should be written? (2) Is there no such thing as good prose which delineates how good prose should be written?

(1) I would suggest you read "The Craft of Verse", an exerpt from the "Essay on Criticism" by Alexander Pope. There are others by others but none stuck with me like Pope's poem:

quote:
"True Ease in Writing comes from Art, not Chance,
As those move easiest who have learn'd to dance,
'Tis not enough no Harshness gives Offence,
The Sound must seem an Eccho to the Sense.
Soft is the Strain when Zephyr gently blows,
And the smooth Stream in smoother Numbers flows;
But when loud Surges lash the sounding Shore,
The hoarse, rough Verse shou'd like the Torrent roar.
When Ajax strives, some Rocks' vast Weight to throw,
The Line too labours, and the Words move slow;
Not so, when swift Camilla scours the Plain ..." -- Alexander Pope, from "An Essay on Criticism"

Read this passage aloud and notice the different poetic elements at play here (sound, meter, syllable length, rhyme, etc.).

(2) I am a big fan of Strunk & White's "Elements of Style". A favorite part of mine is:

quote:
"Vigorous writing is concise. A sentence should contain no unnecessary words, a paragraph no unnecessary sentences, for the same reason that a drawing should have no unnecessary lines and a machine no unnecessary parts. This requires not that the writer make all sentences short, or avoid all detail and treat his subject only in outline, but that every word tell." --William Strunk, Jr.

Both, I think, get to the heart of the matter of why I am of the opinion that your poem could be improved. To be honest with you, I think you would be better off approaching the subject with a different form (one that would allow you to elaborate on your thoughts a little bit and give you the opportunity to make this poem's assertion more convincing). Just an opinion.

Thank you for posting your poem. I have enjoyed following the discussion.

Jim

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