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Freedom
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Freedom |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash 
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Freedom, so many waive your banner high Proclaiming rightly that no kind of law Can be imposed on any man – for all Who disregard another’s will and vie To bind a man to unjust laws, decry His liberty and make of him a thrall – But what if people answer Freedom’s call With selfless thoughts for no one else but “I”? “I” cheapens precious freedom’s blood-bought price, Reduces liberty to unchecked license, Enslaves the weak to chains of lust and vice, And is the brand that sears the callous conscience. I, a freeman and a servant, shan’t deny True freedom never finds its rest in “I”. < !signature--> Jim "If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther [This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 03-06-2000).] |
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Kirk T Walker Member
since 2000-01-13
Posts 357Liberty, MO |
Very, very nice. I really can't say much in the way of criticism. If I had to pick out a weak spot, I would say that for me it was the switch in the ryhme scheme ABBAABBACDCEAA (or was it supposed to be ABBAABBACDCDAA )-- I had a hard time forcing "license" or "conscience" to ryhme, but it sort of seemed like they should. But really, I didn't have that much of a problem with that either, but I hate to just right "Great job" and no comments, I know that's not why people post in CA. So "Great job" and I hope my comments may be of some use. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Hi Jim, It's good to see you writing something with a little structure again. I was beginning to fear that I might be left all alone out here.  I know the "rules" for the Italian sonnet allow about any rhyme scheme the poet chooses for the sestet, so I have no problem with your unusual CDCDAA finish. Also I accept license and conscience as a pretty close half-rhyme so you're ok there too. A little variety in a sonnet is sometimes a good thing. Now, for the meter and you know I'm fond of some variation in the pedantic iambic pentameter. I'm not really sure how to properly scan line 1 but I make it sound like FREE-dom,| so MAN|y WAIVE| your BAN|ner HIGH and although not iambic, I think it is all right to start this line with a trochaic foot and it does serve well to emphasize freedom, which I feel sure was your intent. But line 9 always wants to come out as “i” CHEA|pens FREE|dom’s BLOOD|-BOUGHT PRICE, The spondee foot again is ok with me but you'll notice there are only 4 feet. How else can I read this to agree with the rest of the poem? Then line 13 reads as I,| a FREE|man AND| a SER|vant, SHAN'T| de-NY Notice here that you have found or made up for that missing foot from line 9 as this one has 6. Possibly the first foot could be anapest if the comma were left out i a FREE|man AND| a SER|vant, SHAN'T| de-NY but that sounds too rushed and the pause due to the comma naturally precludes this interpretation. This is nice content and good use of some words and rhymes we don't see everyday. Good work and please advise where or how I am reading it wrong. Thanks. Pete What terms shall I find sufficiently simple in their sublimity -- sufficiently sublime in their simplicity -- for the mere enunciation of my theme? Edgar Allan Poe |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Kirk: Thanks for the reply. The sestet format was taken from one of Wordsworth's sonnets and, yes, I knew that license and conscience are near-rhymes when I selected them. Just stretchin' the rules a little.  Pete: Good catch on the missing foot. It was left out of my final edit for some reason. Your scansion of this line is interesting: “i” CHEA|pens FREE|dom’s BLOOD|-BOUGHT PRICE, I read "bought" as unstressed and "I" as ever-so-slightly less stressed than "cheap-". "I" in Line 13 is an anacrusis, btw. Thanks for the attention you gave this one. Jim |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Glad you reinserted the missing foot. I agree with your analysis of "I" at the beginning of the line as being stressed only very slightly less than cheap- but don't know how to indicate that in scansion notation. And brought works equally well for me either way, stressed or not, but it seems to add a little more zing for me if stressed. You may have to educate me on you anacrusis, however. I looked it up so know what it is but, seriously, how is this different from just another foot? Should it be read as a separate entity, followed by a pause before the real line or what? I mean, I still see this as a six foot catalectic trochaic line.  How's that for a mouthful? While I have written six foot sonnets and don't mind, I fear we have others here who may not be so tolerant,  near-rhymes, feminine endings, anacrusis, whew . . . Pete What terms shall I find sufficiently simple in their sublimity -- sufficiently sublime in their simplicity -- for the mere enunciation of my theme? Edgar Allan Poe |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Hi Jimteach, So, this is the gem you were working on... and it is a gem, very well written. I liked the phrase, "so many waive your banner high", with that, and the next six lines (I'm guessing) speaking of "real" freedom, free of arbitrary laws, which when imposed upon a man, make light of his right to be free, enslaving him. The next six lines, I feel, are asking and centering on the question, "What happens when one who gives himself to that body that allows the freedom, and does so thinking only of his own need for freedom?". You go on to say that sefishness of this manner only serves to work against freedom. I liked the couplet...wrapped up the poem nicely, and the "I's" at beginning and end work very well. Great job, as usual, Jim, Kris< !signature--> A Marrowless Assembly, Is culpabler than shame ~ Emily Dickinson [This message has been edited by warmhrt (edited 03-03-2000).] |
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Leslie New Member
since 2000-01-07
Posts 8 |
Hi Jim, I enjoyed this. I find something so pleasing in a well-written sonnet. Freedom, so many waive your banner high Proclaiming rightly that no kind of law Can be imposed on any man – for all Who disregard another’s will and vie To bind a man to unjust laws, decry His liberty and make of him a thrall –*thrall, good word, nice end rhyme. I liked the combination of pure and slant rhymes in this* But what if people answer Freedom’s call With selfless thoughts for no one else but “I”?*I keep reading this and find each time I want to substitue selfish for selfless, selfless means to me, no thoughts of 'I', am I misreading this?* “I” cheapens precious freedom’s blood-bought price, Reduces liberty to unchecked license,*esp. enjoyed license and conscience!* Enslaves the weak to chains of lust and vice, And is the brand that sears the callous conscience. I, a freeman and a servant, shan’t deny True freedom never finds its rest in “I”. Liked your opening choice of the word Freedom. Thought you developed the theme so well within this demanding form. Also liked the opening of the sestet with "I", echoed by the I opening and closing the couplet. It really emphasizes that freedom can't be reduced to one, can only exist where the individuality of all is respected. My favorite lines were the couplet. I esp. liked, 'I, a freeman and a servant', so well put to show the duality necessary for freedom to thrive. The last line is a powerhouse. Great closing for a well-written sonnet! Best, Leslie Kadoom. Kadoom. Ka- dooom. Kadoom. Now I have beaten a song back into you, rise & walk away like a panther. 'Ode to the Drum' by Usef Komunyakaa |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Thanks Pete, Kris, and Leslie for your comments. Pete, I emailed you some information on scansion and on the anacrusis. Let me know if you received it. Kris, the three or so lines enclosed in the dashes identify the common ground for the "false" and "true" freedom people in the sonnet (it is a true statement) but Lines 7 & 8 introduces the question that exposes the extreme libertarian model and sets up my conclusion in the sestet. I think you understood that but I just wanted to make myself clear. Leslie, thanks for the critique. I intended "selfless thoughts of no one else but 'I'" to read with a bit of irony. Perhaps I missed my mark there. And you are right: this is a demanding form but that's what makes it so much fun. I've been involved in several discussions about freedom lately that prompted me to do a little bit (okay, a lot) of research on freedom. It will come as no surprise to many that I leaned heavily on the writings of Martin Luther (the Reformer, not to be confused with Martin Luther King, Jr., the civil rights leader) as resources for this sonnet. I enjoyed mixing philosophy and art even though this involved considerably more work than something written off of the top of my head (I had to understand the concepts before I could write about them). Later.< !signature--> Jim "If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther [This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 03-03-2000).] |
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bboog Member
since 2000-02-29
Posts 303Valencia, California |
J: You probably worked very hard to get just the right rhyme and meter and I congratulate you on doing that. However, I think this poem would be better (more interesting) if you were to substitute the word "marriage" for freedom and rewrite the poem with that thought in mind. Also, (minor distraction) there is a typo in the first line (wave - not waive) best of luck to you, bboog |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Good heavens Jim, just to think I sat here for the last week or so thinking "what a clever use of the word "waive"" .. I guess I couldn't believe that someone with your legal background wouldn't use that word deliberately, so I kind of factored it into the poem by reasoning that what you meant was that a person should be happy to be waive a "right" to a freedom based upon "I"... As usual I credited you with too much subtlety .....lol Philip [This message has been edited by Poertree (edited 03-06-2000).] |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
bboog: You are right ... with some tweaking the poem could be applied to marriage and probably to love too (I've recently read "The Clod and the Pebble" by Blake where he takes a similar approach to love as I did to freedom). The sonnet is actually a restatement of the philosophy of freedom that erupted from the Protestant Reformation and greatly influenced the American Founding Fathers (though hypocrites many of those slave-owning swine were). Philip: I actually did intend "waive" to have that ever-so-subtle double meaning (like "selfless thoughts for no one else but 'I'"). But when nobody picked up on it and bboog read it as a mistake I changed it. Now that you've mentioned catching it, I'm changing it back (I DID like it that way). Thanks for noticing. Jim P.S. This time you were right, but most of the time I think you would be wise not to attribute too much cleverness to me. Later. |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Jim Thank heavens for that my faith in you is fully restored ....lol P |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Hey Jimteach, I caught that immediately, and mentioned it in my reply, which you obviously didn't catch. I say leave in waive...it added immensely to that line.Kris A Marrowless Assembly, Is culpabler than shame ~ Emily Dickinson |
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bboog Member
since 2000-02-29
Posts 303Valencia, California |
Jim: I neglected to mention my first thought when reading this, which was the story of Dean Smith, coach of the NC Tarheels. The coach was angry at Michael Jordan for taking his man one-on-one and beating him to the basket with a gravity-defying slam dunk. So after the game Coach Smith approached Jordan and said, "Michael, there isn't an "i" in the word "team", is there?" There was a pause. Jordan is reported to have answered, "No coach. But you spell "win" with an "i" don't you?" The coach was flabberghasted. He didn't know what to say, and Jordan smiled and walked away. bboog |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hey there Gimn, Sorry I'm a little late for this, I won't comment on the tech side cause I think it's pretty sound and you've already covered most of it already but I will give you my take on the whole shabang. "Freedom, so many waive your banner high Proclaiming rightly that no kind of law Can be imposed on any man – for all Who disregard another’s will and vie To bind a man to unjust laws, decry His liberty and make of him a thrall – But what if people answer Freedom’s call" Pretty solid throughout until... "With selfless thoughts for no one else but “I”?" I agree with Leslie about this line and I didn't think it accurately portrayed the irony you were going for...damn formated poetry never lets you say what you want to "“I” cheapens precious freedom’s blood-bought price," With this line and its predacessor I thought "I" meant society as a whole....many being part of a larger thingy. "Reduces liberty to unchecked license, Enslaves the weak to chains of lust and vice, And is the brand that sears the callous conscience." Really liked this part though I had to think a lot about the last line in order for it to make sense to me in relation to "freedom". "I, a freeman and a servant, shan’t deny True freedom never finds its rest in “I”." I too liked the ending though it took me ahwile to fully grasp the last line....I'm a bit rusty here so cut me some slack-jack Anyways a good solid poem, thanks for the read, take care,Trevor |
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