»
Discussion
»
Feelings
»
Bush and God
| Feelings |
|
Bush and God |
|
Greeneyes  
since 2000-09-09
Posts 9903In Your Poetic Mind 
|
What are your thoughts? If we do go to war, who would you place “blame on” I hate to use that word, but for a lack of better….Yes I read far too much News Week….Would you hold Bush accountable for the ‘action’/s Do you think God would?, now I know that’s a broad term, we all have some spiritual knowledge, some higher power, and I don’t want to make this all about religion, but I am curious…..is this “right” “wrong? How would you judge such a day? Would it be a sin against humanity? How do you feel about war? (for what ever your reasons).... Curious Lauren~ Take me where the tides start |
||
| © Copyright 2003 Lauren~ - All Rights Reserved | |||
|
anonymousfemale Member Elite
since 2000-02-02
Posts 2797Limbo |
Bush is pathetic, religion is for the weak and war is an excuse for the big men of the world to whip out their guns and play schoolyard bully. "Write something, even if it's just a suicide note." -- Gore Vidal |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
It is not just one man, Bush, who makes the decision for America to go to war against any other country. His cabinet members, including military advisors assist the president by providing him information and analysis on what should be done. There is no reason to blame Bush for going to or not going to war with Iraq. |
||
|
Aenimal Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350the ass-end of space |
I think the blame should be squarely on art, music, television and literature because if there was actually anything NEW worth looking,listening to,watching or reading we'd have something better to do..that or Bush. and religion don't get me started...it's one of mankind's greatest evil's, right up there with New Coke, Boy-bands,the Buffalo Bills andreality shows.. Yes I am insane why do you ask? [This message has been edited by Aenimal (03-05-2003 01:21 PM).] |
||
|
defenestrate Junior Member
since 2003-01-10
Posts 46nc, us |
i think bush is a patsy. i think there are many people bent for war, and it won't be possible or useful to point the finger. |
||
|
wandering glider Senior Member
since 2001-04-04
Posts 501aloft |
In the cartoon, "The Boondocks", which reaches 20 million readers every day, the cartoonist Aaron Magruder has his character, a black youngster named Huey Freedman, say the following: "In this time of war against Osama bin Laden and the oppressive Taliban regime, we are thankful that OUR leader isn't the spoiled son of a powerful politician from a wealthy oil family who is supported by religious fundamentalists, operates through clandestine organizations, has no respect for the democratic electoral process, bombs innocents, and uses war to deny people their civil liberties. Amen." w.g. |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
God started it. He created the first burning Bush....  |
||
|
Wind
since 2002-10-12
Posts 2981 |
No war! War is pointless and stupid. All that would be gained from war is lost. They say going to war is to fight for our country, to save our people. But what they don't realize that war does not save us, it kills us. I am very against war. And I think everyone is to blame. If we were a more selfless and giving nation, we wouldn't have gotten ourselves into this mess. I don't want my life or my friend's and familly's life to be taken away because of mistakes that could have been avoided. my sister says "religion is the devil" and I agree. (it makes no sense though) lives are lost ecause people can't just accept the beliefs of others. the Wind is invisible. remeber me [This message has been edited by Wind (03-05-2003 07:11 PM).] |
||
Marshalzu
since 2001-02-15
Posts 2681Lurking |
Want to blame someone for war? how about looking Saddam Hussein's direction. |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
War is pointless and stupid. We should of just let Hitler do what he wanted...you know...lay our weapons down and say to his minions, "War is stupid." |
||
|
Sudhir Iyer Member Ascendant
since 2000-04-26
Posts 6943Mumbai, India : now in Belgium |
 |
||
|
JP Senior Member
since 1999-05-25
Posts 1343Loomis, CA |
Wow, I'm amazed at the comments here. So many, with valuable and insightful opinions. Opinions which seem to be either one-sided, shortsighted, or strongly anit-whoever. I must preface any comments I make by saying that yes, I am a registered republican, yes I did vote for 'W', and yes I have been in the military, I have seen action and I am a disabled vet as a result of that action. Now with that said, let me say this about that: God has nothing to do with what is happening in the world - He created us (assuming you believe in God) as thinking, feeling, reasoning beings and graced us with a gift called 'free will', to assume He would involve himself in the daily activities of man would negate the sanctity of free will and make our existence a sham. War is unpleasant, many times unnecessary, and often the only resort. I personally feel that this country is rushing headlong into something we may be able to avoid. Although, I believe that war with Iraq is inevitible, and honestly I think it is necessary, I also believe we should give the UN inspections more time - time to reveal what is really going on over there. The problem with waiting is Saddam's continual production of biological weapons. Do any of you think he is NOT producing these weapons? If you truly believe that then I feel for you and your loved ones - to be in the world with such a naive outlook can be dangerous. The difficulty as I see it - the proverbial rock and a hardplace - is that the longer we wait to go in and destroy them, the better equipped they will be to unleash those biological weapons upon us in the ensuing war. If we do nothing, Saddam will, no doubt about it, terrorize, invade, or unleash horrible mass destruction on the citizens of the world. His end is absolutely necessary. So what do we do? Wait for concensus from the world? and while waiting give him time to produce more biological stockpiles? Do we do nothing and wait for him to unleash the mother of all murders? Do we rush in now and wipe them out and face the wrath and condemnation of the world? No easy solution here. If I were in the oval office, I would wait, just a bit, give the world notice that the US will follow their advice and wait, and pray that he does not attack someone in the mean time. But make it clear in no uncertain terms that when we do go in, those allies who had us wait get to go in first, get the first taste of anthrax, small pox, serrin gas, or whatever else he's produced. I'm almost worn out now... But let me say this. Those of you who seem to feel that Bush is a mindless puppet, or a mad fool bent on world war, I ask that you take a reality pill and look around you. No other US president had an event like 911 to deal with, since Pearl Harbor (and look what we did then - war, wasn't it?), he is a man, with access to information that we do not have, reasons to act that we are not privvy to. You appear to think that he is different than most of the people you live and work with everyday, that somehow he is one-dimensional, obsessed, or stupid. Can you say that about any average person in the world? If not them, why him? Okay, one more thing. Colin Powell. I know him, I worked with him in the military and I can tell you the man is not single minded, nor a war hound. He is an extremely talented, pragmatic, caring, intelligent man (who I would have voted for many times if he ran for president) he is the main advisor to our president on this matter and for me - if he feels military action is necessary and urgently needed, well, that is more than good enough for me. JP Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn. |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"Wow, I'm amazed at the comments here. So many, with valuable and insightful opinions. Opinions which seem to be either one-sided, shortsighted, or strongly anit-whoever." ~ So JP, tell me, out of those 3 types of opinions, listed above, where does yours fall in? |
||
|
JP Senior Member
since 1999-05-25
Posts 1343Loomis, CA |
All three actually  To begin with, we all agree that everything I say is valuable and insightful, and since I pride myself on my objectivity, my opinions are by default, onesided - my side. Since I am merely human (no matter how I try to convice the world of my omnipotence) I can only see the present, remember the past and anticipate the future - so I am, again by default, short-sighted. Finally, my opinions are most definitely strongly anti-closeminded, inflexible and opinionated without the benefit of study, people.... Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn. |
||
|
wandering glider Senior Member
since 2001-04-04
Posts 501aloft |
JP You would vote for Colin Powell for president "many times". You come from Chicago? :-) w.g. |
||
|
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Or maybe Philadelphia. Heck, even dead people vote here more than once! I couldn't agree with you more, JP. I think we all need to continue to pray for peace yet prepare ourselves for eventual war. With Saddam's continued violation of the resolutions that initiated the Gulf War cease fire, I don't see any other option. |
||
|
Sudhir Iyer Member Ascendant
since 2000-04-26
Posts 6943Mumbai, India : now in Belgium |
 |
||
|
Greeneyes
since 2000-09-09
Posts 9903In Your Poetic Mind |
Personally I dont want war, and I have to believe that Bush is ""doing the right thing" but it's no comfort knowing that, that might be the only way to "control" the mad man.....MHO Greeneyes~ Take me where the tides start |
||
|
hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Speaking of Bush and God... JP said: 'God has nothing to do with what is happening in the world' I dunno about that. G.W. seems to think God is a convinient fulcrum... how many times does he speak of God in relation to this war, and this country? It really bothers me that most people either don't oppose this, or support this, because they believe in God. I guess you can make the argument that the term 'God' is universal... I don't buy it, but the argument can be made. Okay, fine... but what about my right to support or oppose this war as an atheist? As an agnostic? As a pagan who believes in more than one god? As a member of a new-age goddess religion? It disturbs me that people don't recognize that he is pandering to a religious belief in order to win trust and support... apparently that's okay in today's post 9/11 world, much the same as it was okay during the height of the Red Scare. Gee whiz, it's great to see a return to those rational times, ain't it? *sigh* |
||
|
Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
If I may propose an analogy: A street gang manages to infiltrate the ranks of the police in Los Angeles. The leader of the gang actually becomes the chief. Over a period of time he accumulates more and more power until he is able to depose the mayor and take over the entire city. He uses the machinations of the police force to impose his will on the people. He rules them like a tyrant -- like a street gang leader. The governor has the option to go in and restore proper order with the National Guard -- or leave the situation alone -- establish diplomatic relations with the street thug and allow him to continue to brutalize the citizens. He knows that if he goes into the city that civilians may possibly die. He also knows that some of his own forces will die. It is his decision. But is it his fault? Let's look at a situation from real life now -- Chechen rebels take hostages at a theater in Moscow. They say they are going to start killing the hostages if their demands are not met. The Russian government responds with a gas that inadvertantly kills some of the hostages. It was their decision to do something or do nothing. But, was it their fault? [This message has been edited by Local Rebel (03-09-2003 09:33 AM).] |
||
|
Crazy Eddie Member
since 2002-09-14
Posts 178 |
LR Analogies are a handy tool they tend to simplify the question and point to seemingly obvious conclusions, unfortunately they have an inherent built in fault. The further the analogy wanders from the actual events that it is supposed to reflect the less likely that the conclusions reached will be of any use. quote: The obvious conclusion here is of course that it wasn’t their fault and based upon this analogy I’d have to agree with that conclusion. They didn’t create the situation they just reacted to it and any blame for any adverse outcome to that reaction has to be laid at the door of the originators of the situation. The question has to be asked though, is this an accurate refection of the current events? I don’t think it is but it isn’t hard to fix: Chechen rebels take hostages at a theater in Moscow. They say they are going to start killing the hostages if their demands are not met. The Russian government, despite warnings that this action would result in high hostage fatalities, responds with a gas that kills some of the hostages. It was their decision to do something or do nothing. But, was it their fault? Now we’re faced with a closer analogy and the possibility that it was their fault, if we fine tune the analogy a little more I think we can improve on that. Chechen rebels take hostages at a theater in Moscow. They say they are going to start killing the hostages if their demands are not met. The Russian government, despite warnings that this action would result in high hostage fatalities and that there existed several potentially less fatal alternatives, responds with a gas that kills some of the hostages. It was their decision to use the gas or to find an alternative plan to end the siege or to do nothing. But, was it their fault? The introduction of the third option shows that the Government under such circumstances would definitely be at fault, they didn’t cause the circumstances but their decision to use the gas definitely did cause the deaths of the hostages. I should point out that I’m not suggesting the Russian Government had any warnings that the gas would cause fatalities, my additions to the analogy were inserted in an attempt to more accurately reflect the current situation. |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Fault is a loaded word, with connotations of incrimination. Change it to responsibility and I suspect your answer would be very different. Life sends every single one of us situations where all of our choices are undesirable ones. However, there are always multiple choices, even if we don't like what they are. It's our job to pick the least undesirable of the lot. And, yea, we have to accept responsibility for EVERY decision we make. This point is only peripheral to Bush or Chechen rebels. But it's an important one. |
||
|
Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Very difficult Ron. Fault is of course heavy duty -- but applicable to the overtone of the thread. Responsibility isn't useless either. But it is completely different. No limits. But I always like the way you open up a thread. Eddie are you crazy?  In the words of a certain secretary of defense -- we do not yet know what we do not know. Dog is my co-pilot |
||
|
Crazy Eddie Member
since 2002-09-14
Posts 178 |
Yes I'm crazy and all Englishmen are liars. |
||
|
Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
As a great man once said (I think it was me) "The best way to take a hill is to start at the top." |
||
|
Crazy Eddie Member
since 2002-09-14
Posts 178 |
LR Your quote reminded me of my Dad who always seemed to have an appropriate response up his sleeve, one I remember and often use myself is: When you find yourself in a hole stop digging. When faced with an extraordinarily large bill he couldn’t pay I asked him if he was worried to which he replied: Why should I worry they don’t owe me anything. My favourite though was wielded on the occasion of my discovering that he had been presented with the regimental colours for outstanding bravery after one of the many actions he was involved in, he said: I remember that war well, I fought like a lion - but I still had to go. I’m more than a little concerned that in contrast when it comes to Iraq a lot of people seem to be fighting like lions - to go. |
||
|
Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Your father raised a good son. Ever notice how it's the people who try to do good who always get into trouble? |
||
|
Crazy Eddie Member
since 2002-09-14
Posts 178 |
That certainly can be the case LR, where Iraq is concerned the perception of America, at least on this side of the pond, is regrettably about to fall into that category. Yes Saddam and the regime in Iraq should disarm and yes we should use force to compel them if they don’t comply but why not give diplomacy one last chance? If America tabled a resolution at the UN tomorrow that contained a reasonable timetable for disarmament overseen by the weapon inspectors and backed by a clear statement that military action would be used if Iraq did not actively attempt to meet those deadlines my guess is that it would be passed unanimously. But isn’t that what the last resolution said? (I’m arguing with myself again )It depends on who you ask, some say it is and some say it isn’t and some don’t know or care. The difference this time round would be that no one would be in any doubt – disarm or we’ll disarm you by force. Like I said earlier everyone believes that Saddam should be disarmed and everyone understands that it might take a war to do it, it's just that some people, Saddam included, need to understand and agree to the when and the why. |
||
|
Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
That's terrible -- even if it isn't true. But perhaps you're overlooking something. Tony isn't a conservative. Wonder what he knows. |
||
|
rkcraig Member
since 2003-02-27
Posts 202Cincinnati, Ohio, USA |
As a soldier in the navy, you can not place blame on the U.S., and I hate people opposed to war. I fight so that you can be safe and I would give my life happily knowing that my country, friends, relatives and loved ones are safe. If you want to place blame, it's entirely on Sadam. He might (If you actually believe what he says) be trying to disarm himself, but you have to realize that he was supposed to be done with this process over 10 years ago. There is no time for peace, we either go in now, or we go in when it is way too late. It's just like September 11 th. It took us a tragedy to act, are you willing to wait for another? I'm not! |
||
|
Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Mr. Craig -- for your willingness to serve I offer my gratitude. I think though, you'll find that even your commander-in-chief is opposed to war. Your choice of words may not be the best if you have any intentions of trying to influence people. |
||
|
Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
 Frankly, I can't believe this whole idea of war ever came up in the first place. Some of you are right; Bush does have a lot of secret information and power, and a leader must be sincere and loyal to his people and motivate with love! Every single time I see him speak on the news, it's the EXACT SAME THING practically, and who the heck is he calling "thugs"? Sorry, I just think Bush is insane and war will only create more schisms, more boundaries, and break the whole syzygy we thought we are beginning to establish further and further apart! I have half a mind Chris Martin of Coldplay is right when he accepted his Brit Award and said "Everybody is going to die if George W. Bush has his way!". Many of you agreed yourselves every sane person doesn't want war, so why are we having this conversation? The fact is, if you do nothing about not wanting war, it's basically suicide, and that deeply upsets me! And it's no excuse that this maybe the most intense situation for our nation since Pearl Harbor for a president to be in, if he wants this war so bad, why don't he suit up? I think Bush is a big root to this problem. Only a peaceful stepping down from power can ease things up for us all. In fact, I believe going to war will only STRENGTHEN Al-Qaeda and Iraq; they'll see how many of us they can possibly kill and somewhere else within another decade it is going to repeat itself, over and over again. The worst-case scenario is the terrorists attack our shores again, but there's nothing you can do about it. Terrorism is something that can't just be defeated, only unconditional love in every persons heart can eliminate terrorism and Bush will only set off the trigger if he makes another step forward. By George, do a favor in fall 2004 and don't elect him again! J'adoube!  Sincerely, Noah Eaton "Underneath your clothes there's an endless story..." Shakira [This message has been edited by Mistletoe Angel (03-11-2003 12:16 AM).] |
||
|
JP Senior Member
since 1999-05-25
Posts 1343Loomis, CA |
Sadly, I must disagree Noah. Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn. |
||
|
Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
For world peace to work, every single government of every single nation must be trustworthy. Never, will that ever happen. Therefore, there will always be war. |
||
|
hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Opeth, that's the first thing I've heard you say on this subject that I completely agree with. |
||
|
Paul Wilson
since 2002-07-07
Posts 4711United States |
If Bush is so set on peace, why does he continue to speak of war? Must we have war and killing in the name of peace? Is he on an ego trip too finish what his father started or is he insane? Too picture the United States as the aggressor in a war when we preach peace too the world is crazy. "To share my poems with you is to share my heart with you" |
||
|
Loren Lynn Junior Member
since 2003-03-12
Posts 10 |
From the beginning of time, we have been at war. So few know really the truth about what is going on. It started when Eve ate the apple.War began! We have battled on many fields ,killed millions For God? Such deceit, such lies. The true God made us to live happily and peaceful, it is mankind that decides our fate. It began when Eve deceived God.I believe in one goverment that is Gods. No other has the power to end this misery to the mess mankind has done. |
||
|
BrokenDreams Member
since 2003-02-09
Posts 425In The Clouds |
I don't really blame any one person for war. Bush has been hell bent on going to war with Iraq since the beginning. And while I hate what Suddam Hussein does to people, I do have to admire his determination. Not many people would stick to their beliefs under that much pressure. But I also think that Bush, the United States and their allies are stronger and they will do what has to be done. Saddam has to be taken out of power. I wish there was a different way to do it but in this day in age, there doesn't seem to be. The consequences of war are great, but the consequences of not are even greater. And, I hate to say it but oil does playa role in the whole thing. But thats not all Bush's fault. He isn't the one using so much oil. Its the whole country so we are all partly to blame. Jenn don't ever let others tell you who you are [This message has been edited by BrokenDreams (03-24-2003 10:13 PM).] |
||
|
|
⇧ top of page ⇧ |
|
| All times are ET (US). All dates are in Year-Month-Day format. | ||
