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VAS
Member Rara Avis

since 2000-11-16

Posts 7450
Oregon

0 posted 2002-06-27 07:08 PM

This has ceased to be a discussion and has become an attack on persons.

[This message has been edited by VAS (06-28-2002 07:41 PM).]

Irie
Senior Member

since 1999-12-01

Posts 1493
Washington State

1 posted 2002-06-28 12:17 PM

It's enough to make me want to SCREAM!

~Sheri

"The things that come to those that wait may be the things
left by those who got there first"

hush
Senior Member

since 2001-05-27

Posts 1653
Ohio, USA

2 posted 2002-06-28 12:35 PM

God is the only source of love? I don't believe in God. Am I incapable of love? I can't believe some of the closed-minded, one-sided, completely biased and uninformed things people are saying about this issue! I mean, I certainly wouldn't want this type of viewpoint pushed on me, or my future children...

Skyfire

Member Elite

since 2000-12-27

Posts 3381
Riding

3 posted 2002-06-28 12:55 PM

I just want to point out that it says "UNDER God", not "under the Christian God". This may start a controversy, but in my wanderings of the Net today, I've been seeing that the people who don't believe in God (I'm not trying to attack anyone in here at all) are the people who are attacking the people who DO believe in God... In my point of view, the most violent comments have come from the non-believers. For the record, yes, I believe in God, but Christianity is not my current religion.

Poet deVine

Administrator

Member Seraphic

since 1999-05-26

Posts 22612
Hurricane Alley

4 posted 2002-06-28 01:03 AM

I think history proves there is sometimes no one more violent than a vehement Christian!

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean

since 2000-02-02

Posts 27738

5 posted 2002-06-28 01:50 AM

Why is it, that a simple defense of constitutional rights is interpreted as a personal attack? I think I'm gonna go to bed now--and may we all live as witness to the truth of our belief.

Opeth
Senior Member

since 2001-12-13

Posts 1543
The Ravines

6 posted 2002-06-28 08:26 AM

First off, who is Kate Smith?

Second, I most certainly love my family and I do not believe in any God from any religion.

VAS
Member Rara Avis

since 2000-11-16

Posts 7450
Oregon

7 posted 2002-06-28 10:59 AM

and attacking persons and not discussing ideas usually serves no purpose but to make all parties more steadfast in their beliefs and razing any chance for bridges

[This message has been edited by VAS (06-28-2002 07:43 PM).]

Opeth
Senior Member

since 2001-12-13

Posts 1543
The Ravines

8 posted 2002-06-28 11:24 AM

"The late Kate Smith was a wonderful singer who popularized "God Bless America" in the fifties and beyond. It is a song that has taken on a new resurgence since the attack on America of September 11."

~ As for her being a "wonderful singer," that is opinion, not fact. I'd rather listen to Opeth or Pain of Salvation when I want to listen to wonderful singing.

As for the "new resurgence" ~ it makes me sick. All these flag waving, "I love America" people crawling out of the woodworks...where were they before 911? (rhetorical question, no answer required).

"God is the Author of love, whether we believe in Him or not doesn't change His existence."

~ I don't recognize his or her existence, yet I know, yes I know that I love. The author of what I perceive to be love, is therefore me.

"PoetDeVine, I'm afraid Christians do not have a corner on the market in their zealousness of their faith and fighting for it or in its name.

Yes, there were the Crusades...but whom were they fighting."

~ yes, whom were they fighting? I'll tell you. Societies that didn't believe in their christian god. Oh, no, wait...those whom were killed during the crusades were pagans and sodomites that needed saving from themselves...P-Lease.

"There is/was Osama Bin Laden, the Al Quaida, Hitler...citing their faith as their cause/reason. Humans are often the sad factor in a so-called "Holy War." Too often leaders of such are in great contradiction of their professed faith."

~ Hitler considered himself a Christian and according to his interpretations, he was doing the "Will of God." In the name of his Christian God, he killed.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (06-28-2002 11:26 AM).]

VAS
Member Rara Avis

since 2000-11-16

Posts 7450
Oregon

9 posted 2002-06-28 11:46 AM

-gone-

[This message has been edited by VAS (06-28-2002 07:44 PM).]

Opeth
Senior Member

since 2001-12-13

Posts 1543
The Ravines

10 posted 2002-06-28 12:49 PM

"Precisely:  Too often leaders of such are in great contradiction of their professed faith."

~ So what is the difference between Hitler and the Crusades when it comes to killing others in the belief and name of a Christian God?  Hitler believed the Jews should be wiped out of existence, during the crusades, anyone who would not conform to christianity was considered to a heretic and therefore should also die.

"Now, you gave your opinion, I wonder if you were as calm about it as I."

~ I am completely calm. To be not calm would make one emotional, and becoming emotional over an issue will cause one to think unclearly.

"Where were they before 9/11...complacent that no one would dare attack us so vehemently. Sad. The youth in the schools were unaware how important unity could be."

~ Not just the youth, complacency covers a wide spectrum of the demographics.

"I'm happy you love your family."

~ why thank you

See, I don't need a god to love. People can be moral without fearing a vengeful god. I feel good about myself, in that I don't need or desire an eternal life, or have to have a clergyman (or woman) to tell me how I should live my life, morally, nor do I have to live in fear of an eternal damnation in order to do unto others as I would do unto myself.

Have a great weekend!

[This message has been edited by Opeth (06-28-2002 12:52 PM).]

VAS
Member Rara Avis

since 2000-11-16

Posts 7450
Oregon

11 posted 2002-06-28 01:31 PM

discussion has stopped

[This message has been edited by VAS (06-28-2002 07:44 PM).]

Opeth
Senior Member

since 2001-12-13

Posts 1543
The Ravines

12 posted 2002-06-28 01:46 PM

"I really think the question at hand is, if it is constitutional for a person to profess faith in only him/herself, a handful of others, cash or the stock market...then is it not also constitutional for a person to profess a faith in God?"

~ I don't understand your reasoning here at all. I don't believe it is constitutional to "force" a majority's belief onto the minority, even if it were reversed, that is if the athiests or some other minority in ideology were the majority. However, as I have said on the other thread about this same topic, I do not care that the Pledge includes the words, "...under God." ~ I have already explained to my daughter my beliefs. And for her own sake, if she recites those that particular phrase, she doesn't have to believe in it or explain her beliefs to anyone else.

As Serenity stated on the other thread, it is a shame that if one who is in the minority would profess their beliefs, especially when the agnostic or athiest child has to explain to his/her Christian classmates, they would be chastised or become ridiculed by those same Christian children. I have already personally witnessed events like this occuring, so in my reality, it is factual. And what really gets me is this...it is a fact, that children learn from their parents, and that when these christian children ridicule the child with the minority belief, why haven't their parents taught them the loving and forgiving ways of Jesus? Amazing.

"You have a great week-end, too."

For sure, thank you

I have to be at the CPO club in about 15 minutes to congratulate our newly selected chiefs...going to take my daughter to the movies this weekend, plus I have much yardwork and some landscaping projects to complete...that along with some beer and some guitar playing...I expect to have a great weekend.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (06-28-2002 01:47 PM).]

VAS
Member Rara Avis

since 2000-11-16

Posts 7450
Oregon

13 posted 2002-06-28 01:59 PM

good-bye

[This message has been edited by VAS (06-28-2002 07:45 PM).]

hush
Senior Member

since 2001-05-27

Posts 1653
Ohio, USA

14 posted 2002-06-28 07:20 PM

VAS, you still haven't addressed the horrible comment you initially made- that if God is put "off limits" (to hyperbolize), so too, is love. Please, please tell me where you draw than conclusion. In a later reply, you also call God the author of love. Does that make him love? i am the author of a great many poems, not all of them so great... am I a poem? Is Stephen King horror? Is Picasso a distorted picture? We are more than the whole of what we create, if, in fact, God did author love. That, however, is an unproveable fact, one that I don't accept.

'The youth in the schools were unaware how important unity could be. They had been oblivious to a need for patriotism to a country, to a cause, perhaps because there was so much attention placed on individual needs and happinesses.'

You speak of unity as if it is proven, a needed thing. Do you see unity in this nation now? I don't. I think this War on Terror is a joke. And you know what? So does my boyfriend, my best friends, and my mother. Unity? Is this diversity in opinion about the war a bad thing? Individual needs and happiness should take a backseat to patriotism? I don't think so... America remains American even in war time (even if the war is a big P.R. gag...) and dissent and protest must be recognized as an American's right... I exercise this right not out of a lack of patriotism, but because I am patriotic, and I want to add my own two cents, in hopes that my voices will join with others, that my idea of what is right will also be heard and recognized.

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