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Passions in Poetry

The Great (Half) White Hope

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Alison
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75 posted 01-13-2009 01:13 AM       View Profile for Alison   Email Alison   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alison

I am honestly puzzled by this thread.  I am the only woman in my workplace.  I work with a variety of races.  When I was told last summer (by an Alaskan Native) that I was his "last great white hope" was I supposed to have been offended?  I am white.  I am great (or so I like to think).  And, I appreciated the humor behind his words.  

So what is the issue of the original post again?  I guess the insult went over my head.

My confusion stems from the exchange that I recently had in the alley about Governor Palin.  Now we all know how that story ended.  However, in the exchange that I was part of - she was pretty much smeared with derogatory remarks.

Is it acceptable because she is white, Republican, and an easy target?

A
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76 posted 01-13-2009 01:24 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

...and the ones most offensive to her seem to be the most offended about this post. Yes, Alison, that does seem a little strange, doesn't it?
moonbeam
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77 posted 01-13-2009 06:11 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam


quote:
...and the ones most offensive to her seem to be the most offended about this post. Yes, Alison, that does seem a little strange, doesn't it?

Balladeer, I don't see how this comment is anything other than a less than flattering comment upon other posters at PiP.  Does it strengthen the circle of friends?  Does it comply with PiP guidelines?

And likening the Palin thread to this one is a denigration of all the people who contributed well thought out comments about the controvertial nature of Sarah Palin's beliefs and proposed policies.  

This thread started with little more than a joke about something Obama can't do anything about: his racial origin.  The Palin thread was principally a serious discussion about the policies, political history and character of a candidate for the vice presidency.  

Certainly the thread in question got heated, and certainly tempers got frayed to the point where Ron saw fit to close the thread (which I still think was a wrong decision), but nevertheless it was an entirely different situation to the one we have here.
nakdthoughts
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78 posted 01-13-2009 06:23 AM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

the sad thing is that after reading this and another thread it seems there are always some people that can never see both sides or even  compromise...it's always like a war of words and then  one wonders why the mid east or other parts of the world continue to fight till their end is met.
If we can't even come to a compromise or concessions in this small group of fairly intelligent peoples why would we expect it to be any different in the larger sense!? (rhetorical)   Just my opinion
Balladeer
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79 posted 01-13-2009 09:41 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Does it strengthen the circle of friends?  Does it comply with PiP guidelines?

Does it comply with PIP guidelines? Yes. Does it strengthen the circle of friends? Is everything we submit required to strengthen that circle? No. Even families will have arguments and I simply pointed out a fact that is obvious in this thread. If you wish to deny it, fine. You choose THAT comment to ask if it strengthens the circle? I can think of a few thousand others here that your question would be better asked about.


The Palin thread was principally a serious discussion about the policies, political history and character of a candidate for the vice presidency.

Of course. Let's take a look at that principally serious discussion...

She's unqualified, plus she needs a serious makeover. Pearls with fleece, get real! And the do, that went out in the 80's. No McCain and no big hair!  
Palin just said NUK-U-LER. Please, not four more years of Bushisms! Send the big hair hockey Mom back to moose country!
whatís she got against polar bears? Isnít killing moose enough for her? And aerial hunting - fly by killing, no need to get your Bean boots muddy or bloody.
Well, Iím off to make a big bowl of popcorn to munch on while I wait for the next episode of the Johnny and (she's his "soulmate") Sarah Show. Itís gonna be a real doozy!
In my book, Palin is a very selfish, shallow, domineering person and a lousy mother.
So what do you think Huan Yi, will it be Iditarod Dad or Big Hair Hockey Mom holding the shotgun to Levi's back? Yep, a scene right out of HeeHaw.
Oh good, guess you won't have any problem then with me calling Palin Car Wash Sarah. Thanks guys!
Sheís a piece of eye candy tossed into the mix to take mediaís focus off Johnny McSameís bomb bomb Iran and a hundred more years of war.
Send her back to moose country and give Johnny a do over!
Palin cut funding for pregnant teens, teens in crisis and special needs children, but found room in the budget to promote her own bloody agenda, aerial hunting.
Seems Barracuda Sarahís in hiding being tutored in Neocon 101. Maybe if we get really lucky the McCain campaign might forget which hidey-hole they put her in.
Back to moose country for a remedial course in Economics 101.


So what has Jennifer pointed out about the policies, political history and character of Sarah Palin here? She insulted Palin on her looks, her clothing style, her diction, her moose hunting, her motherhood,  her being a big hair hockey mom, her being a piece of eye candy only....please stop me when I mention something that actually dealt with policies, political history and character. She also insulted the state of Alaska and its' citizens, and people who disagreed with her.

She is the one leading the charge here on the incredulity that someone could post a  joke about Obama and his racial origin. My statements stands. The most offensive one in that post comes across as the most offended here. Ringo meant it as a poor attempt at humor. Some have decided to take that attempt and make a major issue out of it, complete with indignant outrage, either real or pretended.

The point is this........did Jennifer have the right to make those insults and comments in the other post? Yes, she did. As Ron pointed out, when one becomes a politician, they are fair game. That's what they sign on for. That is also what he had said in THIS thread. Personally, I don't understand the frontal assault here. If it was badly done, ignore it. How hard is that? Instead we have attacks on the poster, attacks on the moderators, attacks on the running of the site itself....and for what purpose? Just to be controversial? Just to tone up the outrage muscles? Shakespeare was right.

but nevertheless it was an entirely different situation to the one we have here.

To you, perhaps. It does not surprise me you would see it that way.
serenity blaze
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80 posted 01-13-2009 12:06 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I'm beginning to feel personally attacked.

I was not the only one offended.

I shouldn't know, but I do happen to know that others hit that little button behind me only to find a notice that this incident had already been reported. If any one would care to read carefully, some of those people were brave enough to say so publically.

All my pleas for a civil discussion of language have been ignored as well, so to accuse me of creating discord for my personal amusement is not only unfair and insulting, it's not even accurate.

Ignore this one too. *shrug*
Balladeer
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81 posted 01-13-2009 12:51 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Serenity gal, that was not aimed at you at ALL! You stated your opinion and concerns, which you have every right to do. You didn't go off the wall or begin insulting the site management or continue beating a dead horse, even after Ron explained why the post was still here. You have always been a class act
Essorant
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82 posted 01-13-2009 01:05 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I don't think Serenity can't be blamed for anything, just like others have authored some of the mess, so did she.  It was not necessary to exploit the fact that she clicked the "inappropriate" button and then augment the distraction by making ado about Ringo's picture too.  It just avoided addressing Ringo's words themselves and actually expressing why she disagreed with them.  Instead she made the fact that she clicked the inappropriate button, and her thoughts about his picture the issue.  Just like most of the rest of us fell into talking about removal of posts, rules, moderation, etc, instead of directly addressing the post itself.  How much we might disagree and reasonably argued about Ringo's words in a right manner, if we hadn't distracted the thread by resorting to trying to speak for the rules and moderation of the site and make that the issue instead.  
 

serenity blaze
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83 posted 01-13-2009 01:05 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

If questioning the site management is an insult, then I'll have to concede that as much as I love this place and call it home, I now feel more strongly than ever that this thread is inappropriate.

I don't understand.

Nobody really wants it here, and yet here it is.

I did hope that it would get better, though.

If sometimes starts a new thread that attempts a civil discussion regarding language, political correctness, and yes, sensitivies to all of those whether insensitive or hyper-sensitive, I think that would be a great and informative thread.

Now if you'll excuse me, it isn't often that I have other things to do, but today is one of those days.

Be nice to one another, okay?

sigh

Alison
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84 posted 01-13-2009 01:07 PM       View Profile for Alison   Email Alison   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alison

First, I am not attacking anyone.  I am not dismissing the discussion (and well thought out replies) that follow the original comment.  I can understand that people will find the "half white hope" remark offensive.  However, I also realize that there is a person posting to this thread who has made comments (I am paraphrasing) about not letting this remark go unchallenged because the remark is wrong, etc.  

My question remains.

In the Palin argument - the level of disrespect towards her as a person and human was blatant.

Why is this?

Now, I don't want to make this another Palin discussion.  However I see part of this discussion as a pot-kettle-black situation and that makes me wonder why.  Why is fair and understandable to attack one politcal candidate with ugly remarks (that, no, are not racist - they are equally character damaging though) and cry out that another is morally wrong?

I don't think that Ringo's remark was humorous, but I also don't see that it was a racial slur.

----

quote:
The Palin thread was principally a serious discussion about the policies, political history and character of a candidate for the vice presidency.


Excuse me?  You are kidding, right?
Alison

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85 posted 01-13-2009 01:15 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

If questioning the site management is an insult

C'mon, serenity gal. Why would you say that? let me make it clearer....questioning the site management in an insulting manner is insulting....ok?  

Essorant, I agree. Serenity cannot be blamed for, or accused of, anything.
Essorant
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86 posted 01-13-2009 01:20 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


That wasn't what I said Balladeer   
Balladeer
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87 posted 01-13-2009 01:43 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Sorry, Essorant. I misunderstood I don't think Serenity can't be blamed for anything

I'll be more careful    Off to work...have a good day, all.
moonbeam
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88 posted 01-13-2009 01:59 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

No Alison and Balladeer I wasn't kidding about the Palin thread.

In well over 200 replies you picked out a few that had more emotion than logic.  How clever of you. Now do you want me to list 10 times as many serious points from the thread?

Needless to say there were many more other replies that were more measured, including most of our exchanges Alison. Next time perhaps I'll think twice before having a discussion with you if you are just going to dismiss it as a joke.

I'm kind of disappointed at your comments here, but never mind.

PS Oh and I chose THAT comment Balladeer simply because you were the one making it .

[This message has been edited by moonbeam (01-13-2009 02:57 PM).]

Grinch
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89 posted 01-13-2009 03:14 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
I had this truly crazy idea that some of the people who frequent these forums might be willing to assume responsibility for what is posted here.


Itís not crazy Ron, there are people who accept that responsibility - theyíre called Moderators - and, on the whole, they do a pretty good job. The button doesnít give ordinary members any responsibility beyond the ability to flag up a potential problem post so that it can be dealt with quickly by the Mods but, like my dadís light switch, the perception seems to be that it doesnít work.

quote:
If it was badly done, ignore it. How hard is that? Instead we have attacks on the poster, attacks on the moderators, attacks on the running of the site itself....and for what purpose? Just to be controversial? Just to tone up the outrage muscles?



If there are personal attacks aimed at the poster or specific Mods Mike delete them, if you donít like criticism of the methodology of the Mods or the running of the site, neither of which are against the rules, then why not follow your own advice and ignore them. How hard is that?

Or are you simply toning up your outrage muscles?

[This message has been edited by Grinch (01-13-2009 06:36 PM).]

Balladeer
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90 posted 01-13-2009 03:46 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

PS Oh and I chose THAT comment Balladeer simply because you were the one making it .  My point exactly, moonbeam

Itís not crazy Ron, there are people who accept that responsibility - theyíre called Moderators
The button doesnít give ordinary members any responsibility beyond the ability to flag up a potential problem post


Grinch, far be it from me to speak for Ron but I get the feeling from his post there he was also referring to the personal responsibility of every member here. If you feel that ordinary members have no responsibility then it would be like advocating that there is nothing wrong with dumping your trash in the street since it's the trashman's responsibility to clean it up. It's just a matter of personal pride, that's all.

Believe me, I do ignore it. As I mentioned earlier I don't lose sleep over any of it and, when I turn off the computer, I turn off everything in it. I simply brought it up to show that it does exist here and to ask people to question themselves why. My outrage muscles atrophied years ago
Grinch
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91 posted 01-13-2009 04:44 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Grinch, far be it from me to speak for Ron but I get the feeling from his post there he was also referring to the personal responsibility of every member here.


The ordinary members here have no responsibility or obligation to report possibly inappropriate threads, in the same way that people have no responsibility to report people dropping trash in the street.

It would be nice if they did but itís no big deal if they donít, if it were Ron would make it a condition of membership and then tie himself and the Mods in knots trying to enforce it.

The button doesnít work because when people click it the threads theyíre reporting donít go away, the fact that thereís a very good reason why they donít doesnít come into it.  If youíre the second person to try to click it you get a message that itís already been clicked and no explanation as to why the post hasnít been deleted, whether the mods are still discussing it or whether the issue has disappeared into a black hole.

If someone drops trash in the street and I report it only to see the same person dropping trash the next day ,and the day after that, the obvious conclusion is that reporting it is a waste of time. Maybe the system should allow multiple reporters, and anyone who reports it could be rewarded by receiving a notification of the subsequent decision. They may not agree with that decision but at least theyíll know their opinion has been duly noted and their participation is appreciated.

If you click the button and the perception is that it doesnít seem to work you shouldnít be surprised when people find other ways to exercise their outrage muscles.

serenity blaze
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92 posted 01-13-2009 05:16 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze



I'm back.

Not to add anything, but to let you all know I do love you.

I may be quiet for a while, and I don't want that misinterpreted. I should be back Thursday, possibly babbling and tripping on Demerol. I ask for apologies in advance if that happens.

I am ...going to bed.

Love to all! (Really.)



JenniferMaxwell
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93 posted 01-13-2009 06:57 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

"If youíre the second person to try to click it you get a message that itís already been clicked and no explanation as to why the post hasnít been deleted, whether the mods are still discussing it or whether the issue has disappeared into a black hole."

One thing I've always wondered is if second, third, fourth, etc., clicks are reported. In other words, do the mods actually know how many are clicking inappropriate content? Also, after the first click, you can't indicate what rule you think has been violated or what you feel is inappropriate about the post.

I've clicked many times, and nearly as many times have never seen a post or gotten a reply that would indicate a decision has been made. You're left hanging and wondering.


  
Grinch
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94 posted 01-13-2009 07:43 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
One thing I've always wondered is if second, third, fourth, etc., clicks are reported.


No.

As I understand it the button is designed to bring the thread to the attention of a passing Mod by creating a thread in the DM forum, itís not designed to measure how many people are offended. Clicking it after someone else is a waste of time.

ďThis thread, however, has already been reported by someone with similar concerns and is being discussed by our team of Moderators. While we know additional reports would be valuable to that discussion, we have no easy way to record them without also losing focus.Ē

ďWe have no easy way to record themĒ

Iíve always thought that this was misleading.

I donít disbelieve that a solution doesnít presently exist but I think youíre underestimating your ability a bit Ron with the ďno easy wayď comment. I donít know that much about puters but couldnít you simply log additional reports to a file then generate an email reply from that file to let all the members know what the final decision was?

Or perhaps you could just log a blank comment on the DM thread with the members details, that would show you how many people found the thread offensive without causing a loss of focus. Youíd have to filter out multiple reports from the same member but that shouldnít be too hard.

Greeneyes
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95 posted 01-13-2009 08:03 PM       View Profile for Greeneyes   Email Greeneyes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Greeneyes

As a courtesy, the Moderator who handles this issue should email with an explanation of the final resolution""""

more times then not, we do email members with a final result...however if you submit a post with no name we cant email the poster with a final result.... keep in mind this is a volunteer/courtesy action...

~~**~~
I never let one moment define me,
I define myself by all moments and how they teach and touch me......02  

Ron
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quote:
The ordinary members here have no responsibility or obligation to report possibly inappropriate threads, in the same way that people have no responsibility to report people dropping trash in the street.

That's accurate, Grinch, only to the extent that no one here has any responsibility or obligation to do squat. Not the Members, not the Moderators, not even me. The benefits when someone assumes some responsibility, however, accrue to everyone. One corollary to that is that the more people willing to assume responsibility, the more benefits accrue to everyone. Another corollary is that you get to take and take and take and will never be asked, let alone forced, to give anything in return.

quote:
It would be nice if they did but itís no big deal if they donít, if it were Ron would make it a condition of membership and then tie himself and the Mods in knots trying to enforce it.

It's a very big deal. If it weren't, it wouldn't be there. Your logic is flawed, Grinch, perhaps colored by your experience with government. Generally, I try to avoid making rules at all and I definitely try to steer clear of rules that can't be enforced. You'll find there are no rules stating you have to use the Submit button, no mandates that require clicking on the Edit icon every day, and indeed no stipulations on most of the tools provided in hopes of making this a more comfortable place. We operate under as assumption that people generally get out of something in relative proportion to what they put it into it. I don't have to try to enforce that one, either; the universe seems to do a pretty good job without my help.

quote:
The button doesnít work because when people click it the threads theyíre reporting donít go away ...

Wrong again. The button actually works pretty well, just like those fire hydrants along the street work fairly well . . . even if you personally don't see them in action very often. Fortunately for all of us, those who need to use them know how they work.

What you're missing, Grinch, is that the people who are usually willing to report Inappropriate Content are almost always the same people willing to devote some of their personal time to dealing with it. They get to see not just the start of the story, where not much happens, but also the middle and the end. Deputy Moderators volunteer to spend two weeks working in a forum of their choice and helping with the unpleasantries in that forum. Most of them don't just go away when their two weeks are over, and none of them stop being Deputy Moderators. They still have access to the private DM forums and, far more importantly, they still have the skills and knowledge set that represent the culture of pipTalk staff. We only have a few hands on deck at any given time (usually far too few), but we have lots and lots of eyes out there telling those hands where they are needed. Without their help, this place would long ago have turned into your metaphorical trash-filled street.

Our DM Program, as far as I know, is unique. I've seen no other on-line Community utilizing anything even remotely similar. We've had close to 200 people participate since 2001, and I think in almost every possible respect it's been a tremendous success. To me, our Moderating staff is the heart and soul of pipTalk, and frankly, if everyone else went away I believe we would still have a thriving community, a very real circle of friends. It would just be smaller and probably a whole lot calmer.

I don't expect you to fully understand it, Grinch. You've made several comments, like suggesting Balladeer should delete posts in a forum where he's not a Moderator, that demonstrate you don't quite get it. And that's perfectly okay. Most of us never have to know what makes the fire hydrant work, we just need to trust that it will. I'd like to think that most of our Community trusts that someone is back there trying to keep things running smoothly, even if they never get to see the fevered bursts of activity spurred when someone reports a potential problem.

quote:
Or perhaps you could just log a blank comment on the DM thread with the members details, that would show you how many people found the thread offensive without causing a loss of focus.

That assumes we should care how many people found something offensive? If we're talking about a majority of the community, I might be amenable to a democratic vote. If we're talking a handful of vocal dissenters, I couldn't care less about their numbers.

Once Staff is aware of a thread, the Inappropriate Content link has served its purpose. If people want to make their voices heard they should use a different tool to do so.


Alison
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97 posted 01-13-2009 08:41 PM       View Profile for Alison   Email Alison   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alison

moonbeam,

I don't dismiss any of these threads as jokes.  My stance in the previous discussion about Palin was that many of the points made about her were shallow and insulting.  

I believe that if the Palin discussion was dismissed it was by you in the following response:

quote:
And likening the Palin thread to this one is a denigration of all the people who contributed well thought out comments about the controvertial nature of Sarah Palin's beliefs and proposed policies.  


So be it.  That is your opinion.

quote:
Next time perhaps I'll think twice before having a discussion with you if you are just going to dismiss it as a joke.



Please do not put words in my mouth or in my post - I did not think that the Palin discussion was a joke.  I don't think that this discussion is a joke.  If you decide not to converse with me any longer that's your choice.

Alison
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98 posted 01-13-2009 09:09 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Does most content reported by people usually end up being removed though?  


Ron
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99 posted 01-13-2009 09:28 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Does most content reported by people usually end up being removed though?

No. In fact, most content reported by Moderators ultimately isn't removed.

Reporting problems is liberal and encourages everyone to voice an opinion. Removing posts, on the other hand, is conservative. We don't do it if it can be reasonably avoided.
 
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