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Passions in Poetry

The Circus is Coming to Town

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Jaime Fradera
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Where no tyranny is tolerable


0 posted 08-21-2008 08:27 AM       View Profile for Jaime Fradera   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jaime Fradera



Boy Hussein Obama can not win,
unless it is the same way Hitler won.
The people of this country and this continent
  will never be governed by an insufferable tyrant
and will not endure living in a Marxist hell,
and then will bury this wanna-be misleader,
this plastic, patchwork persona,
this arrogant, trumpt-up, inflated buffoon
in contempt, ridicule and scorn.
Obama will not deliver us from evil,
but into it.  
A sudden, meteoric rise
always precedes an equally meteoric fall.
Remove me from this forum if you will,
but history will vindicate these words.

Friendship is for Life, if not Forever.

SEA
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with you


1 posted 08-21-2008 09:07 AM       View Profile for SEA   Email SEA   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SEA

I really hope you aren't right, but I think this way too. I think both of them truly suck.
JenniferMaxwell
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2 posted 09-07-2008 05:33 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell


A racial slur in the opening line, yet this post is still on the board. Shocking! Guess no one reported it. I will now.
Bob K
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3 posted 09-08-2008 03:01 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


Dear Mr.  Fradera,

                  I googled "Boy Hussein Obama" found mostly a series of inflammatory websites listed.  In common they seemed to have an interest in spreading the notions that Senator Obama was a muslim and a Jihadi.  I am unclear as to weather you subscribe to these ideas and to what extend you realize that you should actually prove statements you make in print unless your interest is simply to smear somebody's reputation without regard to reality.  Should anybody care to google "Boy Hussein Obama" they will no doubt be thrilled at the number of racist remarks available for their reaction on the first page of references alone.

     The two listed under Osama, Osama, Yo Mama or particularly noisome.

[paragraph removed - Ron]

[paragraph removed - Ron]

[partial paragraph removed - Ron] Senator Obama is, like Mrs. Clinton, Republican Lite and not even an actual left wing democrat.  The closest we've had to one of those in office has been LBJ, and he blew the Democratic party in half, and plunged the country into a shameful war fought by brave soldiers.  His Domestic Agenda against poverty and racism was very fine from my own left wing Democratic position, but there's nothing like that visible in the here and now.

     In fact, who knows if we can get the new President, Democrat or Republican to render the new Presidential powers back to the people, and return to the people the lost civil rights incursions into Habeas Corpus and the rights of freedom from unreasonable Search and Seizure.
The tyranny Mr. Fradera is worried about happening in the Future, friends, has already descended; and our problem is what degree of our former liberties can we reclaim, and what legal ways must we use to go about doing so.

[paragraph removed - Ron]

     We don't have to like each other to look for a roughly objective set of facts.

     It's about facts and the good of the country, not winning points.  It's about helping the country survive.

[This message has been edited by Ron (09-08-2008 08:43 AM).]

Ron
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4 posted 09-08-2008 08:52 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
A racial slur in the opening line, yet this post is still on the board. Shocking!

Not everyone in our backroom is convinced a racial slur exists, Jennifer. It could be just a dropped or misplaced comma, some contend.

Doesn't matter.

Either people have the freedom to impugn political candidates or they don't. No one gets to draw an arbitrary line in the sand and say their character assassinations are on one side of the line and someone else's is on the other side. Either politicians are fair game or they're not. If you believe skin color isn't a valid criteria for a leader (good for you), you are certainly free to ignore any arguments centering on skin color. As many others, I suspect, will do for pouffy hair.


Bob, I felt it necessary to remove several paragraphs from your post, paragraphs that I believed characterized the poster, not the post. Your views on the issues are important to us. Your views on Jaime or any other Member here are not.

quote:
Remove me from this forum if you will,
but history will vindicate these words.

Removal from this community, Jaime, isn't based on a determination of Truth. Put another way, being right has never been an excuse for breaking our rules. Cross the line, as you seem increasingly intent on doing of late, and history will not save you. If you no longer like it here, please save everyone a lot of headaches and make your exit quietly.


JenniferMaxwell
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5 posted 09-08-2008 09:24 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/evolutionists_flock_to_darwin


Huan Yi
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6 posted 09-08-2008 01:07 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

I smell a con . . .


.
Bob K
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7 posted 09-08-2008 02:46 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Ron,

          I trust your judgement on that.  I'm sorry if I got carried away.  When I tried the google search. . .  and the nature of the original post itself was difficult for me.  I know I should be more objective and will work for that.  Thanks for your help here.

Yours, Bob Kaven
JenniferMaxwell
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8 posted 09-08-2008 09:49 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

"The tyranny Mr. Fradera is worried about happening in the Future, friends, has already descended; and our problem is what degree of our former liberties can we reclaim, and what legal ways must we use to go about doing so."

I think a good start, Bob, might be by putting two Constitutional lawyers at the helm, Obama and Biden rather than the bottom of his class Academy grad McCain and his journalism major running mate, Palin.

moonbeam
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9 posted 09-09-2008 12:12 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Very respectfully Ron, following your closing comments in the other thread, I would be grateful if you would please clarify whether you regard my comment:

"I don't see the "attacks" made by Jaime as only attacks.  They are nearly tantamount to incitements to hatred and racist violence."

as acceptable.

Just to be clear, my intention was to question the EFFECT of Jaime's words, NOT to try and second guess his reasons for posting those words.  Perhaps I have done more than that?

I'm trying here to understand where the lines are and how they are drawn.

Thanks.
  
Ron
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10 posted 09-09-2008 03:41 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Moonbeam, those are exactly the kind of determinations that our Moderator team tries to make. And, of course, it's no easy task. If it was my belief that anyone was advocating a violent answer to a problem, I would probably pull the post. Even if it was directed at a politician.

Was your comment acceptable? Personally, I don't think it's the kind of thing we should encourage in a public venue. While it's exactly the kind of thing that goes on in the backroom, I suspect doing it out front is just going to result in a lot of finger pointing back and forth. And to what good?

Those kind of complaints need to be handled at an official level, I believe. Look in the top right corner of every post; you should see an "Inappropriate content?" link. Clicking that link creates a thread in the Deputy Moderator forum where our whole team can, as a group, make a determination. It might take an hour, a day, or a week, but words that might otherwise simply incite more accusations can actually reach a result there.

Make sense?
moonbeam
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11 posted 09-09-2008 04:13 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Yes it does, I understand.

Thanks Ron.

M
Jaime Fradera
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since 11-25-2000
Posts 582
Where no tyranny is tolerable


12 posted 09-10-2008 06:52 PM       View Profile for Jaime Fradera   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jaime Fradera

My piece, though perhaps rather crudely written, was an oppinion.  Obama is a Marxist, and that is NOT an opinion.
I do agree with Ron, though; history will not save me.
Why should it?

JenniferMaxwell
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13 posted 09-10-2008 08:25 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

[Personal attack removed - Ron]

[This message has been edited by Ron (09-11-2008 12:54 PM).]

Bob K
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14 posted 09-10-2008 08:26 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     Sources, please, Mr. Fradera?  For a statement that controversial, and in the context of the discussions here over the past week or so, I would hope the sources would be less controversial than the statement itself.  I would like to be convinced by evidence if I am going to abandon my current expressed position that Senator Obama is Republican Lite.

     I have not seen, for example, that the senator wishes to promote a revolution of the proletariat in this country or any other.  In fact he seems to be attempting to work within the system to better the conditions of "the wretched of the Earth."  The fact that he seems to go after elected office would in fact qualify him to be what a good marxist would probably call a "running dog of capitalism."

     The marxist position, ever since Lenin, has been somewhat cynical.  Others may correct my attribution here, but I do believe it was Lenin who said that the Capitalists would sell the very rope used to hang them.  This does seem to me to be an accurate description of Republican environmental policy.  I am probably closer to being a marxist than Senator Obama, though I am not a marxist, only pretty far to the left.  Senator Obama is still able to talk with many of these people far right wing folks, and to negotiate with them with a reasonable lack of rancor.  I have difficulty as seeing them as being other than people who are attempting to murder the entire species, including themselves, for momentary profit.

     Exactly how the Senator's economic policies are marxist is unclear to me as well.  He still seems to believe that it's fine for people to make an honest profit in business; and that people should be rewarded of their efforts on their own parts AND on the part of the community as well.  You may call this last part marxist.  To me it sounds remarkably like Adam Smith's "enlightened self interest," something that Capitalism should display but so often does not.

     These are a few thoughts in response to your suggestion that the Senator was a Marxist.

     I await your thoughtful response.  Sincerely,  Bob Kaven
Larry C
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15 posted 09-11-2008 12:02 AM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

Bob K,
Republican Lite. I like that. You crack me up. And Jaime I think Bob's got you on this one. And your post is crudely stated. And I'm not sure to what purpose.
moonbeam
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16 posted 09-11-2008 04:06 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
And your post is crudely stated. And I'm not sure to what purpose.

Oooooo Larry ...  tssk tskk

"If you want to analyze (or question) someone's motivations for posting, you should probably join a forum for armchair psychiatry. They might accept you as an expert witness; we won't. Feel free, at any time, to disclose your own motivations, but please leave those of other Members out of the discussion."

We musn't speculate on the poster's motives for writing what he wrote. ~spank spank~.

        

Seriously though I think this illustrates how difficult it is in a discussion forum, especially one for "flamin and complainin" NOT to slip into discussing motive.  My own opinion is that what is important is the INTENT behind the "speculation".  That's why the moderator of this forum has a near impossible job!
Ron
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17 posted 09-11-2008 01:00 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
My own opinion is that what is important is the INTENT behind the "speculation"

Only if you intend to pass judgment on the poster.

Is Obama a Marxist? Will Jaime's intent make the Senator a Marxist? Or prevent him from being one?
Larry C
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18 posted 09-11-2008 01:29 PM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

moonbeam,
Actually I was reflecting Jaime's own admission as a means of concurring. So I'm pretty sure I'm safe. I happen to like Jaime a lot and know that I could never cope with the challenges of life that he has dealt with. And thus I find this particular post disconcerting if not out of character.

And you are sooo right about the moderating. A serious portion of my reading on this site I do with one eye on how the moderators work and what their challenges might be given what I've read.
JenniferMaxwell
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19 posted 09-11-2008 01:43 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

My apologies to Jaime if my post came across as a personal attack. I can’t recall my exact words but thought they addressed the content of his post, not him personally. And, I did wish him a pleasant evening trying to show that I bore him no ill will.

You know, it’s getting a bit confusing. Some opinions directly addressing a poster by name and judging them get a pass as being just an “observation”, whereas some opinions focusing on the post, not the poster, are being called personal attacks. Have to tell you, maybe it’s just me, but I not getting it.

Anyway, again, my apologies to Jaime.
moonbeam
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20 posted 09-11-2008 01:58 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

No Ron!  Sorry misunderstanding, my bad.

I wasn't challenging the "rules" of PiP which I do understand bar ANY discussion of a poster's intent.  I was just taking a step back into the real world which thankfully isn't moderated, where I think trying to make a judgement about someone's motives with benign intent isn't so bad.

And anyway, as I said before in this case I wasn't speculating on what Jaime's intent was at all.  I was speculating on what the effect of his words might be.  

........

Point taken Ringo!
Ron
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21 posted 09-11-2008 10:47 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Have to tell you, maybe it’s just me, but I not getting it.

Feel free to write me any time, Jennifer. While a public rehashing of what I felt was over the line would defeat the purpose of removing it, I'm more than happy to discuss it in private. FWIW, most of your post was, indeed, fine and you should feel free to post it again. I just didn't have the time this afternoon to edit it for you.

And, yes, Moonbeam, in the real world we frequently judge people by their intent. Which, I think, is often a real shame.


Bob K
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22 posted 09-12-2008 12:33 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

Dear Ron and, of course, dear Mr. Fradera,

          I have no idea about Mr. Fradera's intention here.  I do know that he has made a statement that is inflammatory in the extreme.  If you notice the beginning of the thread, you will note that Mr. Fradera appears to have done so before, and within recent memory.  I understand that this is political speech, and is protected for that reason.  It should be.  Nevertheless, I continue to wait patiently for Mr. Fradera to offer proof from sources that are as trustworthy as such a massive and unsupported statement should naturally demand to back his accusation.  

     From what I know of the literature, and certainly my knowledge is not encyclopedic, I cannot see solid evidence out there to support such a reckless statement, and I believe that Mr. Fradera is in error.  Standard journalistic practice is three reputable sources offering independent collaborative evidence.  For a story this large, I would want more, personally, as would, I suspect, anyone who had an interest in a fairly objective look at the story; but I'd settle for three if they were, in fact, reliable sources; and if they did, in fact, offer independent collaborative evidence.

     If I were trying to break some sort of left wing story, I would want to exclude any left wing sources in the interests of keeping things above board.  When I do offer references here, I tend to avoid left wing sources for that reason.  I would hope Mr. Fradera would have the resources and courtesy to do the same from specifically right wing sources.

     Once again, I wait the courtesy of a reply from Mr. Fradera.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
JenniferMaxwell
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23 posted 09-12-2008 04:44 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

“most of your post was, indeed, fine and you should feel free to post it again.”

Fair enough, and thanks, Ron. Since you haven't given me any indication what part of my post you saw as being a “personal attack”, either in this forum or by email, then it's impossible for me to exclude that part in a repost. All I can do, I'm afraid, is post what I recall having said and trust that you'll delete the part you feel is a personal attack. I certainly don't want to offend Jaime again.

I’ll break my three line post down into separate sections, number each, double space, thereby hopefully making it easy for you to point out the part(s) by deleting the text that made it a “personal attack” so in future I won’t make the same mistake and neither of us will have to sit around waiting for a reply by email.

1. Said Hi to Jaime

2. Mentioned something about no supporting evidence for any of the statements in his post.

2a. Also mentioned that the language used in the post was offensive to many people.

2b. Said  that because of 2 & 2a, in my opinion, that made the post a rant. In a do over, I'd probably also characterize the post as being inflammatory.

3. Wished Jaime a pleasant evening.

Which of those statements contain the personal, the ad hominem attack? I can understand that if I had called Jaime a boorish ranter, a racist, a flamer, then that would be a personal attack. Since my statements addressed only the post, not the character or the intentions of the poster, nor was I in any way judging Jaime personally, then I really do have difficulty understanding why you labeled it a “personal attack”.

Now contrast my statements about Jaime’s post with those below which are personally directed, judgmental, fallacious, disparaging, and put words in the mouths of posters they never said, then perhaps you can understand why I’m confused about why my post was considered a personal attack and removed and these, in a post that was reported as being inappropriate, weren’t:

“Now, it seems that Jennifer feels disrespected and insulted, and refuses to let it go”
"Balladeer feels like he is being ganged up on, and is taking his ball and going home."


[This message has been edited by Ron (09-12-2008 09:22 AM).]

moonbeam
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24 posted 09-12-2008 04:57 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam


quote:
And, yes, Moonbeam, in the real world we frequently judge people by their intent. Which, I think, is often a real shame.

Ron, I think that's far too simplistic.  (I may be misreading you, in which case ignore what follows).

Outside of the artificial environment of PiP I'd say that if you DON'T make an effort to judge someone actions by looking beyond the overt, then you are potentially missing out on a lot of life, and moreover likely to do substantial damage!  The cliche is the "male/female - mars/venus" thing - and perhaps there's some truth in it.  Imo the crucial issue isn't the fact of trying to assess someone's motives, but, as I said before, the state of mind of the assessor.  An open, fairminded, honest, truthful, unsuspicious, kind, and altogether benign, approach will yield dividends in harmony.

A recent example: someone at work who, if I had judged purely on his outward actions I should have fired immediately, but, guessing the motive for his apparently incomprehensible actions, I didn't.  Time will tell if I am right or not I guess, but it feels right, and that's good.

That's part of why your job here is very difficult.  You have to apply rules mechanistically and that inevitably leads to "mistakes" and hurt when the person to whom the rules are applied doesn't fully realise the unenviable postion you are in.
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