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Passions in Poetry

Obama

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Jaime Fradera
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0 posted 02-25-2008 07:30 PM       View Profile for Jaime Fradera   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jaime Fradera


Obama is a populist demigog.
So when Obama says:
Black ist der master race,
ve say heil,
heil,
right in Obama's face.
Mz Bill Monica ain't much better.
So when Frau Clinto says:
I'm mistress of zis place,
Ve sai heil,
heil,
right up frau Clinton's face.

JenniferMaxwell
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1 posted 02-29-2008 06:40 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I'm not easily offended, but I find your poem offensive. Nothing personal, just your poem.
Midnitesun
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2 posted 02-29-2008 06:57 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Sheesh. This is in poor taste, amigo Jaime.
Poet deVine
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3 posted 03-01-2008 07:50 AM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

While I don't agree with Jaime, he does have the right to express his opinion here in the Alley - that's what it's for... Interesting take on both candidates though. Maybe you could explain why you feel they are deserving of a 'heil'? The significance of that phrase brings really bad ideas with it. Thanks Jaime!
JenniferMaxwell
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4 posted 03-01-2008 11:44 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Iím not questioning whether Mr.Fradera has the right to express his opinion, but rather, was it expressed respectfully as it should be according to forum guidelines:
ďThis forum is for flaming, complainin', and screaming your head off. Respectfully, of course.Ē

When two posters step up and say Mr. Fraderaís words are offensive or in poor taste, doesnít that clearly suggest he has in fact been disrespectful?

I read (and write) a lot of political poetry so Iím pretty thick skinned when it comes to rants and raves.  In my opinion, this poem has crossed the line into shock jock territory. It has no merit, is not based on fact, is meant to be offensive, comes across as being both racist and sexist, and therefore definitely shows a lack of respect for both the average reader and the candidates.


SEA
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5 posted 03-01-2008 12:27 PM       View Profile for SEA   Email SEA   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SEA

the fact is, it's his opinion. He didn't ask you to agree with it. I think it's fine, whether I agree or not is irrelevant.
Grinch
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6 posted 03-01-2008 01:10 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
the fact is, it's his opinion. He didn't ask you to agree with it.


Lol

Jen and Midnitesun arenít asking anyone to agree with their opinions either.



Opinions are fine but that doesnít mean they should stand unchallenged, they should be questioned and tested by, and against, the opinions of other people. Otherwise all sorts of crazy opinions would go unchecked and given  a false patina of legitimacy.

That's my opinion on opinions, here's my opinion on the post:

If the object of the poem is to demonise the targets it doesnít work, the references to the Third Reich and the Nazi movement go too far in my opinion. The comparison acts to illicit sympathy for those attacked rather than  agreement of the proposed similarities. It turns the targets of hate and derision into victims of hate and derision, of course if thatís the aim of the poem then I guess it works.

I still donít like it though because I know that some people will see the hate and derision and miss the sympathy part altogether.

Thatís just my opinion though, Iím not asking anyone to agree with it.


JenniferMaxwell
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7 posted 03-01-2008 01:53 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I respect your opinion, Grinch, but guess Iím too dense to understand the sympathy part. Why should anyone feel sympathetic towards a political candidate because someone chooses to pen a rant about them?  

Also, just curious, do you think if I posted a Bush basher comparing him to Hitler and his administration to the Third Reich, would anyone voice a complaint or would they proudly defend my right to express my off the wall and over the top opinion?

Anyway, canít believe Iíve wasted part of one of my rare Saturdays off on this topic.

Hereís what I think a political poem should look like, by Yusef Komunyakaa, a fantastic poet whose work is really worth checking out.
http://www.ibiblio.org/ipa/poems/komunyakaa/prisoners.php

On a personal note, am finding Dylanís prose as delicious as his poetry - The Orchards, for instance. Yum yum! http://www.undermilkwood.net/prose_theorchards.html

[This message has been edited by Ron (09-08-2008 09:01 AM).]

SEA
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8 posted 03-01-2008 01:59 PM       View Profile for SEA   Email SEA   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SEA

"Jen and Midnitesun arenít asking anyone to agree with their opinions either."

exactly.  

I don't give a flip one way or the other...I think it's pointess to argue over. A complete waste of time, so you guys knock yourselves out.... LOL


"Also, just curious, do you think if I posted a Bush basher comparing him to Hitler and his administration to the Third Reich, would anyone voice a complaint or would they proudly defend my right to express my off the wall and over the top opinion?"

I think if you don't agree with Bush you should say it, I don't care if you do or not...I don't care if anyone cares if I do or not...it's just not worth it to me to get upset about what someone else thinks.
Grinch
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9 posted 03-01-2008 03:28 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
Why should anyone feel sympathetic towards a political candidate because someone chooses to pen a rant about them?


Because the comparison is unjustifiable, the punishment hate and derision if you like outweighs the crime of alleged  political unsuitability. Maybe sympathy is too strong a word but I donĎt think so. Itís like a bully being bullied -  just retribution to a point - until it goes too far and becomes a lynching at which point you start to think ďhe doesnít deserve thatĒ - is that sympathy? I think so but I may be wrong.

quote:
Also, just curious, do you think if I posted a Bush basher comparing him to Hitler and his administration to the Third Reich, would anyone voice a complaint or would they proudly defend my right to express my off the wall and over the top opinion?


Not sure about complaint part as far as other people are concerned.

I certainly wouldnít complain about you voicing an opinion regarding Bush in that way, but then again I donít think the target in the poem matters, perhaps that's because IĎm English and have no political axe to grind either way.

Itís more my thoughts on the validity of the opinion that counts and my opinion would be just the same - Bush doesnít deserve it for the same reason Obama doesnít deserve it and Iíd definitely voice that opinion.

Iíd also defend your right to voice your opinion just as long as people are free to voice their opinions against it.

I think Thomas only had one voice - lyrical

  

[This message has been edited by Ron (09-08-2008 09:02 AM).]

JenniferMaxwell
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10 posted 03-01-2008 04:56 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

ďhate and derision if you like outweighs the crime of alleged  political unsuitabilityĒ
Got what you meant now, Grinch, thanks. In this case it seemed to me more like a blatant case of character assassination rather than dealing with the candidatesí political unsuitability. And of course, that would make them even more victimized than if the poet had addressed their political ideologies or agendas. Interesting! Anyway, do you seriously think thatís what the poet was trying to accomplish, garner sympathy for the two candidates?

I agree with you on the one voice - lyrical. If I might, Iíd like to add that perhaps reading his prose is the place to start. Jumping right into Dylanís poems can be a little overwhelming and confusing. But once youíve read a lot of his prose, his poems seem less of a leap.
Grinch
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11 posted 03-01-2008 05:12 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Anyway, do you seriously think thatís what the poet was trying to accomplish, garner sympathy for the two candidates?


No.

And even if that was the aim itís misguided, as I said the possibility of sympathy is easily missed - especially if youíre partial to a good lynching.

I agree on the prose thing, his poems are a condensed or distilled version of his prose and much easier to get into, better to sip beer before tackling the whiskey.

Balladeer
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12 posted 03-01-2008 10:19 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, he is entitled to his opinion and no one is forced to respond and that's the bottom line. Can it be found distasteful? Sure, but I can go the archives and find things said about Bush that equal it with no complaints.

Obama is a one-term senator who has spent a big part of that term running for president and has done little else.
Hillary is a senator who has done nothing in the senate, is married to an ex-president,and was put in charge of revamping a health care policy which she couldn't do.

These two claim to have qualifications to run the country. I find THAT distasteful enough...
Grinch
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13 posted 03-02-2008 09:45 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
These two claim to have qualifications to run the country. I find THAT distasteful enough...


Some people must think they have what it takes Mike, Iím not an expert when it comes to American politics but presumably you need backing to make it to the top. People close to you for instance, who encourage and put you forward, and people not so close who believe in you enough to vote for you.

Perhaps you just donít see their qualifications as others do, perhaps theyíre all wrong and you are right, who knows.

You might actually be highlighting a flaw in the American democratic process that allows the wrong person to get the presidential job based on the failure of the people to recognise the evil demigods for what they really are.

That thought sparks another, are you willing to accept an un-qualified President? Should you accept one? Can you fall in line and support a leadership you KNOW to be incapable of leading your country?

If the comparison of Obama and Clinton with Hittersí Nazis turns out to be true will you be leading the armed insurrection against them should they come to power or will you be sat in shadows biting your tounge like so many German citizens in the thirties?

On reflection perhaps the poem isnít a criticism highlighting the evil of  politicians who would be president, perhaps itís a criticism of the fools who allow them to get there in the first place and allow them to hold an office theyíre unqualified and unsuitable to hold.

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14 posted 03-02-2008 10:04 AM       View Profile for SEA   Email SEA   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SEA

Grinch, there are more Americans that would take up arms than you seem to think...I would. No question. and yeah..I have guns

and yes, I realize that was directed at the Deer...just throwing that in there... for what it's worth...and I know, probably not much...
RSWells
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15 posted 03-02-2008 10:38 AM       View Profile for RSWells   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for RSWells

  Any other website would have deleted this crap, sparing decent sensibilities and not providing a platform for other closet fascist/neocon nazi responses.
  To think after all that's happened during this illegal regime that any supposed american, who isn't one of the uber-wealthy non-taxpayers, war profiteers or greedy polluters would still support it is astonishing.
  And to the usual suspects....see my posts, note their dates....I was ahead of all of this and the same callous detractors who remained steeped in the comfort of their hate and prejudice still cling desperately to the decaying agenda that has bankrupted our country and made the world far less safe for americans who are now reviled everywhere.
  These avaricious manipulators could never have maintained power had they not divided us against each other, the antithesis of true democracy.
  In time it is recognized that only cretins cleave to, what normal, decent people see as obviously flawed and failed agendas....those who yet wail for the revival of the confederate flag....those who blame Jane Fonda or the "hippies" for the fiasco of Vietnam and those who would support an angry, sick old career politician who promises 100 years more of this foolish 21st Century Crusade.
  As to Mr. Fradera, it's a shame Bloomberg didn't run, then you could screed about a woman, a black AND a jew.
  Now let's usher in the head cheese who is often absent from rightwing posts, however offensive, but never fails to send the spelling police in after the "lefties."    
Grinch
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16 posted 03-02-2008 11:09 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
and yes, I realize that was directed at the Deer...just throwing that in there...



Feel free to jump in at any point, this is a Forum which sort of suggests open discussion, the normal etiquette and rules regarding butting in donít count here, at least thatís how I see it.

To be honest, in the scenario I outlined Iím not sure how many Americans Iíd expect to rise up against the government and leadership. My heart hopes itís a lot, my head and the evidence of history suggests it might not be enough. Off the top of my head Iím not sure what proportion of Germans opposed Hitler, Iím not even sure if any credible numbers exist on the net to look up but Iíll certainly try. Even without the figures though  we can be certain it wasnít enough, it could be argued that Germany isnít America which may have some validity but it depends on a presumption that people are fundamentally different in nature and Iím not sure thatís true.

I think in Germany there were a lot of people who supported Hitler, probably a majority in the beginning but as time went on that popularity slipped but Hitlerís political momentum was protected by ruthless treatment of dissenters. By the end of the war my guess would be that the Nazi ideal was held by only a minority of the populace but itís telling that throughout Hitlerís leadership he wasnít troubled by mass threats to depose him or internal armed rebellion.

Whether that gradual slip from open support to acceptance through fear could happen in America is a difficult question. I expect that if the German people were asked the year before Hitler came to prominence theyíd probably say it wasnít possible, that they would oppose it, that they had guns.

For what itís worth sea I think your input does have value, and thank you for offering it.
Grinch
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17 posted 03-02-2008 11:23 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

RSWells,

Stop beating around the bush and tell us what you really think.

Sorry I couldnít resist.

I donít know whether itís worth responding to your post in detail, for one thing Iím not sure itís going to be here long enough. Thatís not because I believe thereís some behind the scenes conspiracy to silence  your opinion, but rather that the manner in which you voice your opinion could be construed as a clear example of a lack of respect for fellow members.

If itís still here tomorrow Iíll post a response.
LadyTom
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18 posted 03-02-2008 11:45 AM       View Profile for LadyTom   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LadyTom

American politics of 4th grader
In Ballwin, Mo, children as whole class voted for W Bush
IN Arcadia, CA, Children as whole class voted for Obama.

Is politics a family culture or what? Are you serious?

How much do you know your favorite politician?
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19 posted 03-02-2008 05:59 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Perhaps you just donít see their qualifications as others do

Grinch, the thing is that there are no qualifications to see. Qualifications are a matter of record. They are either there or not. Obama was a complete unknown until he made a speech at the DNC and impressed people with his speaking ability. That's it. He continues to make good speeches, although it has come to light that many of his speeches have contained more than a few "cut-and-paste" wordings borrowed from other people's speeches. People follow him because his cry is "change!", a popular gambit that many have used. Hillary has done nothing as a senator of New York, handing that ball off to the other senator, allowing her freedom to pursue the presidency. Her only claim to fame was creating a new health care system, which was an abysmal failure. She claims to have qualifications from her time as being first lady but, thanks to her husband, those records are sealed and will not be seen by the public. Her cry is also "Change!". In both cases, change really means putting a Democrat back in the  White House and also represents what will be left in one's pocket after their tax hikes. A cry for change? All I can say is...be careful what you wish for.

Would I like to see a different system, other than the popularity contest we have now? Absolutely. I would like to see a mininum requirement table that must be met before one can even have the right to run....but it won't happen.

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read it in English, thank a soldier.

oceanvu2
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20 posted 03-08-2008 04:57 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

My goodness gracious!  Actual raging, flaming, and opinions in the Alley.  With multiple viewpoints!  Who would have thought it possible?

Opinionating:  The poem is hateful and insults the intelligence of both left and right.

RE: "I would like to see a mininum requirement table that must be met before one can even have the right to run....but it won't happen."

Thank God!  

Opinionating:  We've got a minimum requirement table already: forty years old and a native born citizen.  It has produced both notable and minimal Presidents.  What might be added?  Property ownership?  White maleness?  Inherited wealth? Graduates of Yale?

Additional requirements would be a veiled attempt to make sure that candidates think the way the framers of the requirements do.  I don't think you'd want radicals on that committee, and I'd object to reactionaries.

RS Wells:  We'll, your post is still in place.  Maybe the notion of allowing people to dissent without being quashed is gaining a foothold.  

Personally, I'll be happy when either Senator Clinton or Senator Obama is elected President.  I find it interesting that Democratic "lefties" would be "centerists" any where else in the wolrd, and "righties" would be raging oligarchists.

A question:  Was Pol Pot really entitled to his opinions, one of which was that it was OK to murder a third of his country's citizens?  This is a question about the notion of having an unlimited right to one's opinions, not a comparison of anyone to Pol Pot.  Do terrorists have a right to their opinions?

Awaiting-the-hammer. Jimbeaux  

Grinch
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21 posted 03-08-2008 05:42 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
Do terrorists have a right to their opinions


Yes.

Yes terrorists (and would-be Pol Pots) can hold whatever opinions they like - whether they can freely voice them is another question and whether they act on them is a whole different subject.

I can plant a bomb that kills hundreds but still possess an opinion on the price of cheese . I can even have an opinion that planting a bomb would be a good idea as long as I didnít actually plant one, or incite or encourage others to plant one.

Thatís not strictly true though:

I can quite openly hold the opinion that planting a bomb that kills a hundred people is a good idea, I can even encourage and incite other people to plant a bomb that kills a hundred people.

All I need to do is ensure that the hundred people Iím talking about are terrorists I donít think anyone, anywhere would argue with that opinion - even terrorists.

  
oceanvu2
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22 posted 03-08-2008 11:44 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Hi Grinch.  Nah.

Best, Jimbeaux
Mistletoe Angel
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23 posted 03-12-2008 04:26 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

quote:
Grinch, the thing is that there are no qualifications to see. Qualifications are a matter of record. They are either there or not. Obama was a complete unknown until he made a speech at the DNC and impressed people with his speaking ability. That's it. He continues to make good speeches, although it has come to light that many of his speeches have contained more than a few "cut-and-paste" wordings borrowed from other people's speeches. People follow him because his cry is "change!", a popular gambit that many have used. Hillary has done nothing as a senator of New York, handing that ball off to the other senator, allowing her freedom to pursue the presidency. Her only claim to fame was creating a new health care system, which was an abysmal failure. She claims to have qualifications from her time as being first lady but, thanks to her husband, those records are sealed and will not be seen by the public. Her cry is also "Change!". In both cases, change really means putting a Democrat back in the  White House and also represents what will be left in one's pocket after their tax hikes. A cry for change? All I can say is...be careful what you wish for.


There's no question that Barack Obama lacks a certain kind of experience that has often been favored and recommended in American politics: executive and legislative experience.........and in that respect, should Barack Obama become the 44th President of the United States, he will become, hands-down, the least experienced president in American history in that regard.

Yet, I also believe, rarely but surely, there comes a time when there is an anti-incumbency vibe permeating the national landscape, where their elected leaders are not fulfilling the promises of the people, where they feel their nation is heading in the wrong direction, and, in contrast from usual sentiments, in wave election cycles like this, "experience" can prove to be a ten-letter dirty word if it means more of the same empty promises and window dressing, the lack of leadership, the absense of judgment.

It appears most evident this election cycle will be one of those times, where the 110th Congress is polling at unprecedented new lows since approval rating tracking history began, and the Bush presidency is polling barely north of the lowest approval rating in the history of poll tracking: Harry Truman's 23%, with more than 70% of the nation believes the country is headed in the wrong direction.......despite having a Bush Administration replete with individuals who had served or have been serving in Washington for decades including Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Richard Perle and others, a House Speaker serving Congress for over twenty years, a Senate Majority Leader serving in Congress for twenty-six years (about forty years of political experience if you include his role as lieutenant governor) a House Minority Leader serving in Congress for eighteen years, and a Senate Minority Leader serving in Congress for twenty-four years (even longer if you count his time as an intern on Capitol Hill).

Thus, perhaps that is just part of the problem to many Americans; this type of "experience" is just what's wrong with American politics right now, and many Americans are hungry for some sort of shift from it, many so desperate for it that, when they see a candidate who one is well-aware that he has only served in the US Senate for three years, over a third of that time running for the presidency, he/she is thinking: "It's just crazy enough to work!" or "Why not, I'd go with something new over a repeat of what we've seen these past several years any day!"

*

Now, conventional wisdom has argued and continues to argue often that Obama is too "inexperienced" to be the President of the United States, thus is "not qualified". My first argument against this notion is that, when you look at the dictionary definition of "qualification", you get:

*

qualification [kwol-uh-fi-key-shuhn]
noun

1. a quality, accomplishment, etc., that fits a person for some function, office, or the like.  
2. a circumstance or condition required by law or custom for getting, having, or exercising a right, holding an office, or the like.


*

The former definition can be open to so many interpretations regarding what constitutes as a genuine "quality" or "accomplishment". Some may argue "military experience" fits that ideal of "accomplishment", others think running or having ran a successful business matches the criteria, yet others think having served as a UN Ambassador to the United Nations, or putting the Pentagon Papers into the public record, or even being a 6°š5 tall Hollywood actor, rings true as a sort of worthy quality.

I happen to believe myself that Barack Obama possesses some promising qualities that make him qualified to be President in other ways. For instance, while he may lack experience on the executive front, he has many years of experience in the grassroots; working in the early to mid 80's to provide low-income housing to Chicago-area residents as the director of the Developing Communities Project, or spending four years as an assistant attorney at Miner, Barnhill & Galland to represent voices of community organizers and civil rights, or regularly and consistently pushing the issue of anti-proliferation to the public forefront, even before he was elected a Senator in 2004.

Now some may argue that the fact he has no military experience alone makes him unqualified. Frankly, I think the fact that Obama has actually lived abroad at times in his life provides an enormously important quality that too many modern presidents have lacked, because it is through such an experience that a sensitivity to the nationalism of other cultures and peoples globally is sharpened so, whenever Obama speaks about issues such as anti-proliferation, the genocide in Darfur and the Middle East peace negotiations, he sounds convincing, and has a great instinctual grasp of international affairs where, on some of his foreign trips I've read about, he knows how to be diplomatic and firm at the same time, like on August 28th, 2006, when he visited Kenya and greeted President Mwai Kibaki with respect, yet at the same time sharply denounced and criticized the graft and erosion of civil liberties that was corrupting the nation, and even went further to visit The Standard in person; a national newspaper that had been ransacked by his party's officials.

It's there where I think Obama has had a more direct and personal understanding of these adorementioned issues, moreso than any commander-in-chief in recent memory, because he has actually lived, and has family who have lived and continue to live, in areas of the world where personal liberties and civil rights are seemingly a pipe dream often. And to me at least, when ones knowledge and sensitivity of the issues is personal, sometimes autobiographical, ones credibility is bolstered.

THAT'S how I think Obama is actually MORE qualified, in some respects, than either Hillary Clinton or John McCain are, and why I believe he is the most likely of the three to begin restoring our nation's images in the hearts and minds of the international community and showing that America truly is the beacon of freedom and opportunity of the world, which matters the most to me in that, from a national security standpoint, we can't expect to win the fight against terrorism if our country and foreign policy are depicted in an unfavorable, antagonistic light, and the best way to quash these threats is to repair, and sinew, these global alliances to confront these testing threats, with a two-fold sense of pragmatism and firmness constantly gleaming.

*

I certainly won't deny that Barack Obama's rise to fame has been quite abrupt, and phenominal, as though he trampolined from the unknown to the headlines in a single bound. But I absolutely believe many who are inclined to support Obama are NOT sheep, and have their reasons on why they're supporting him; NOT because his speeches make them feel good, NOT because he's an African-American, NOT because people like the "Obama Girl" said so.....but because they see in him a candidate who has a special set of qualities and accomplishments that make him stand out among the pack that they fathom are presidential.

*

That doesn't at all diminish that, regardless of which election it is, one should be encouraged to research and study the candidates most carefully, for it would be careless just to wish or gamble for something based on what someone says rhetorically, whether it be "change", "experience" or "leadership"..............which is something I agree wholeheartedly with you on.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
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24 posted 03-12-2008 07:40 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

     I'm interested in seeing the verse Jaime Fradera has to offer us on Senator McCain.

     The discussions of experience used to interest me a great deal; and still do on an academic level.  

     It's become clear to me that if the guy you like has lots of experience, then experience is by golly a thing of vital importance to you:  Think Gore in 2000, for example.  If the guy you like doesn't have much experience, then a fresh outlook, change and boldness are your watchwords as with Obama today.  You could pick Republican examples just as easily, for example, Bush #I in 1992 for experience or Bush # II for inexperience in 2000.

     This type of disagreement doesn't really do us well, I think.  Although it does supply a certain amount of bruising for those of us who feel the need to go out of our way to get that sort of thing, and nobody seems to charge for it.

     Jaime Fradera appears to have made a mistake that has  grown common these days.    Mr. Fradera has remembered enough of grade school to know that Nazis were bad.  I think Mr. Fradera should be congratulated for this, because history and the memory of history is not a frequent thing during these days of educational budget cuts.  It has escaped Mr. Fradera's attention that Senator Obama and Senator Clinton are both Democrats and as such are of the somewhat left-wing part of the political spectrum.

     Nazis are part of the right wing of the political spectrum.  

     I tell the difference by wearing my watch on my left wrist and noticing the people who are against the things that the nazis did (like torture and preemptive invasion of other countries, and failing to comply with the Geneva convention) tend to agree with my opinions.  The further to the  Right people tend to place themselves on the political spectrum, you see, the more closely their opinions and the opinions of those other right wing people, the nazis, tend to approach each other.  

     I won't say all people on the right, because it plain isn't true, even if I miss out on some lovely rhetorical ranting.  There are plenty of decent and admirable conservative voices about.  Nevertheless, the further to the  Right people tend to place themselves on the political spectrum,  the more closely their opinions and the opinions of those other right wing folks, the nazis, tend to converge.  

     One quick review here:  Democrats, Left Wing; Nazis, far right wing.    

      That would mean that the nazi song parody that Mr. Fradera has written would be less appropriate when applied to democrats, who are on the wristwatch and wedding ring side of the political spectrum.  By which I mean to say, Left.  I only say this because Mr. Fradera has made this error in fact which shows he hasn't understood this point.  The parody Mr.  Fradera has written would more likely be appropriate for those on the very far right, or the Nazi, side of the spectrum.

     My colleague, Balladeer, has been trying to help me understand tongue-in-cheek ironic humor.  It would be a terrible thing for me not to take a moment, stop, and ask him if I'm headed in the right direction here.  Do I have the right idea here, Balladeer? or am I being too subtle?

     I say very far right, because the presumptive Republican candidate for President, who would seem to be conservative enough for almost everybody, seems to be considered not Right enough by a distressingly large proportion of his Party, including Mr. Limbaugh, a right wing talk show host.  Now perhaps Mr. Limbaugh has changed his mind recently, but Senator McCain has not been one of Mr. Limbaugh's favorite people because an 87% approval rate by the conservatives is not Right enough for Mr. Limbaugh.

     Now Senator McCain is too far right for me, though I believe him to have an admirable streak of integrity.  I like him and consider him reasonable.  I would love to hear what poems Mr. Fradera would write about Mr. McCain.  Would Mr. Fradera consider Senator McCain far right enough for him, or would Mr. Fradera meanly try to call Senator McCain a Nazi as well, simply because Senator McCain isn't far Right enough actually to be a Nazi?

     At what point are people far enough to the right for Mr. Fradera to stop calling them Nazis?  It certainly looks possibly that the point may well be the point where the actual Nazis begin.  

     As a result, I look forward to hearing Mr. Fradera's compositions about not only Senator McCain but about Mr. Limbaugh as well.  I also look forward to hearing Mr. Fradera's notions about cutting the fat in the educational system.  Apparently all those wasted educational dollars haven't hurt Mr. Fradera at all, and we may soon look forward to raising our children with all of Mr. Fradera's intellectual advantages.
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