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Cornered
| Philosophy 101 |
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Cornered |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
What makes you think you are not cornered by the whole universe into being and doing everything you are? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Perspective |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
What makes you think your perspective is not cornered by the whole universe into being and doing everything it is? |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Are you asking why I don't believe in absolute determinism? Because I'd have to believe either 1) I have no real choices, or 2) My ability to choose is a complete illusion, and only apparant. Experience doesn't mesh with #1. And starting from myself, there is no way to prove or disprove #2. Stephen. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Stephanos I'm not questioning the existance of choices. But am asking if we and our choices are governed by and in conjunction with the whole universe. Under how all things are and are changing, what conciously or unconciously, directly or indirectly, doesn't line you up in conjunction with the rest of the universe to be everything you are and line you up to make every choice you ever make? How aren't we thus cornered by the whole universe? Are our choices anything more than a wonder or phenomenon wrung out by the shape and changes of a whole universe? Indeed you may say you made a choice, but how do you say that choice wasn't in conjunction with everything else around that choice, everything in yourself and everything in the rest of the universe, and that the whole universe didn't line you up and "corner" you into making that choice? [This message has been edited by Essorant (01-09-2006 12:28 PM).] |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Um, That's just a long way of saying "determinism" again. I already gave you points, as to why I don't believe in absolute determinism. If you want to pursue those points we can continue, and talk in more detail. Stephen. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I acknowledged your points Stephanos. That's why my post above is in context of making choices. But you didn't answer any of the questions. How are we and our choices not cornered by the whole universe into being and doing everything we are? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Why should choices be "unreal" if they are bound and in conjunction with the whole universe instead of just themselves or those that make those choices? It may mean they are hardly "free", but nevertheless they are choices. I don't believe I'm free from the universe thro life or death, why should I feel I am free from it in my choices? I believe I am presently the most conscious government over myself, but I also believe the shape of me and that "government" is only in conjunction with itself in conjunction with everything else in the rest of the universe--my body, other conscious "governments" and other bodies. If the rest of the universe did not exist I would not exist either. If the rest of the universe were not changing, I would not be changing either. If the rest of the universe were not changing in the way it is, then I would not be changing in the way I am. That is how I feel "cornered" by the whole universe. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." Stephen Crane |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Man said back: "Where is God's or man's creation If not created in thee? You have a sense of obligation Because you have it in me!" [This message has been edited by Essorant (01-09-2006 10:16 PM).] |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Stephanos, It may help to think of it this way. Everything is part of the universe, God, angels, animals, gods, humans, dreams, truths, lies, etc. We as humans are part of the universe, therefore as much might as we possibly have over ourselves is only still a part, included with anything else that may have any might or influence upon us. Therefore our might over us + the might the rest of the universe has over us inevitablly means more might than just the might we have over ourselves. The whole universe including the might we have over ourselves, is more might than we have over ourselves, but that doesn't mean our might over ourselves isn't more than the might of the rest of the universe over us. But at the same time that doesn't mean that the rest of the universe may not ever have more might over us. It literally and figuratively seems to depend on what shape we are in  [This message has been edited by Essorant (01-10-2006 08:36 PM).] |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Why the word cornered? If my friend calls and invites me out, I don't feel cornered by her, even if I had not been previously considering going out. Having to make a choice doesn't necessarily mean you are cornered... |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Hush, Whatever might and influences she has upon you, in conjunction with the might and influence you have over yourself, in further conjunction with the might and influence anything and everything else has, "corners" you into your choice. It's the whole universe again. That doesn't mean that you didn't get to excercise the most amount of might regarding that choice, but in the end it was everything altogether--the whole universe--that cornered you into that choice. Do you see what I mean? |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Essorant, “What makes you think you are not cornered by the whole universe into being and doing everything you are?” The lack of evidence to the contrary, If you were to say I’m obliged to be who I am and do what I do by my own universe (or everything I am) I think I’d agree with you. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
"If you were to say I’m obliged to be who I am and do what I do by my own universe (or everything I am) I think I’d agree with you." I didn't mean one isn't obliged by oneself, but that one is obliged by himself and by the rest of the universe, and therefore the whole universe--- Oneself + the rest of the universe = the whole universe. Choice + the rest of the universe = the whole universe. Obligation + the rest of the universe = the whole universe. You can't get away. You are universally cornered |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
What does gravity do for me Ess? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
LR, It influences you. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
“Crown Prince Sultan Bin Abdel Aziz told reporters the kingdom had "spared no effort" to avoid such disasters but, he added, "it cannot stop what God has preordained. It is impossible."” http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,181406,00.html |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
By your reasoning how is Hitler or a child molester not absolved? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Huan Yi The whole including us determines us more than we determine ourselves alone. But the part within that whole that determines us most is ourselves. We are the highest government of ourselves. God, the sun, the earth, the moon, gravity, plants, animals, and many other things sustain conditions needful for life and might, but they don't live our lives or wield our might for us. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Seems you're changing course . . . |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Do the below sayings contradict each other? If so, why? * The whole universe wholly determines the whole universe. * The whole universe wholly determines a part of the universe. * A part of the universe partly determines the whole universe. * A part of the universe partly determines a part of the universe. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
So, the universe dictates me more than I dictate myself, but I dictate myself more than the universe dictates me? ...? I don't buy it. This just sounds like a fancy way of saying we are influenced by the world around us. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
We determine us partly because we are part of the universe, but more than any other part, because every other part determines that too and accomodates it. Our might is given lodging and accomodation by all the rest of the universe. It determines our might. Without it we may not have such might. But with it, we have more might over ourself than our "accomodations" have over us, but that is still dependant on them accomodating it. The whole universe wholly determines us. The rest of the universe determines us least. And we determine us most within the whole that wholly determines us, more than the rest of the universe, but less than the whole, because the whole includes us and the rest of the universe. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Gravity gives me constraints, boundaries. It influences particle behavior, gathers together molecules into planets and stars. I can choose to look at my constraints and boundaries as limitations -- or I can choose to see them as definitions. Without boundaries, we have no definition. So it's a matter of perspective. Are we cornered by the universe? Yes. In a nice safe corner where we can exist and choose. Some non-linear random events over which we have little or no control will affect us either adversely or beneficially -- bad luck, good luck. Other events we will have varying degrees of control over. On the histogram -- there will be more of the events we can influence in the middle with 'lucky' events on either end. Between reasonable luck and skillful choices we get by alright. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Hush, I will try to say it more clearly. As I mentioned I believe the whole universe including the might we have over ourselves is more might than we have over ourselves but that doesn't mean our might over ourselves isn't more than the might of the rest of the universe over us. The rest of the universe is not the whole universe, but is only the part that is distinct from ourselves. I think we are always in conjunction with the rest of the universe though. If we have more might over ourselves than the rest of the universe has over us, that is also dependant on the rest of the universe. It doesn't only come from only one part. But I believe it comes from all things working together in wide oneness. Local Rebel is right that we may look at it as unfreedom, but we may also look at it as freedom, because the things that bind and take away freedom, also bind us to the might we have over ourselves which in effect is freedom too, from the might the rest of the universe otherwise may have over us. I hope that makes more sense [This message has been edited by Essorant (01-17-2006 01:56 PM).] |
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