Two quotes on why Hell is necessary

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Local Parasite

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Transylconia, Winnipeg

0 posted 2004-12-18 03:09 PM

Lately I've been reading a lot of what people have said about Heaven and Hell. Two ideas from Christian thinkers I've come across that interest me, that I'd like some feedback on...

From Emanuel Swedenborg, Heaven and Hell:

quote:
Evil with man is hell with him; for it is the same thing whether we say evil or hell. And as a man is the cause of his own evil, therefore he, and not the Lord, also leads himself into hell. So far is the Lord from leading man into hell, that He delivers him from it as far as a man does not will and love to be in his own evil.

All a man's will and love remains with him after death. He who wills and loves evil in the world, wills and loves the same evil in the other life; and then he no longer suffers himself to be withdrawn from it. This is the reason that a man who is in evil is bound fast to hell and is actually there, too, in spirit, and after death he desires nothing more than to be where his evil is. After death, therefore, a man casts himself into hell, and not the Lord.

quote:
When, therefore, a spirit of his own accord and from his freedom drifts towards his hell and enters it, he is received at first in a friendly manner, which makes him believe that he has come among friends. But this continues for a few hours only. In the meanwhile he is explored in respect to his astuteness and his consequent ability; and when this has been done they begin to infest him, and this by various methods, and with gradually greater severity and vehemence. This is accomplished by introducing him more interiorly and deeply into hell; for the more interior and deeper the hell the more malignant are the spirits. After these infestations they begin to treat him cruelly by punishments, and this goes on until he is reduced to the condition of a slave.

From Jacob Boehme, A Dialogue between a Scholar and his Master:

quote:
Where thou dost not dwell as to thy SELF-hood, and to thine OWN Will, there the holy Angels dwell with thee, and everywhere all over round about thee. Remember this well. On the contrary, where thou dwellest as to thySELF, in SELF-Seeking, and SELF-Will, there to be sure the Devils will be with thee, and will take up their abode with thee, and dwell all over thee, and round about thee everywhere.

quote:
But when the Body dieth or breaketh away, so as the Soul cannot any longer enjoy such temporal Pleasure and Delight, nor the Light of this outward World, which is wholly thereupon extinguished as to it; then the Soul stands in a eternal Hunger and Thirst after such Vanities as it was here in Love withal, but yet can reach nothing but that false Will, which it had impressed in itself while in the Body; and wherein it had abounded to its great Loss. And now whereas it had too much of its Will in this Life, and yet was not contented therewith, it hath after this Separation by Death, as little of it; which createth in it an everlasting Thirst after that which it can henceforth never more obtain, and causeth it to be in a perpetual anxious Lust after Vanity, according to its former Impression, and in a continual Rage of Hunger after those Sorts of Wickedness and Lewdness whereinto it was immersed, while being in the Flesh.

Fain would it do more Evil still, but that it hath not either wherein or wherewith to effect the Same, left to it; and therefore it doth perform this only in itself. All is now internally transacted, as if it were outward; and so the Ungodly Soul is tormented by those Furies which are in his own Mind, and begotten upon himself by himself. For he is verily become his own Devil and Tormentor; and that by which he sinned here, when the Shadow of this World is passed away, abideth still with him in the Impression, and is made his Prison and his Hell. But this hellish Hunger and Thirst cannot be fully manifested in the Soul, till the Body which ministered to the Soul what it lusted after, and with which the Soul was so bewitched, as to dote thereupon, and pursue all its Cravings, be stripped off from it.

Personally, I quite agree that Hell is something that can only be brought on a person by himself, and that God really would wish the best for everyone.  The problem is that a soul at the time of death would be unable to enjoy the grace of God.

The question raised by these two passages is... is sin, like Swedenborg says, a cause of torment because it is liberated by death (in that without the laws and penalties of life there is no deterrent from sin), or because it is impossible in death (in that there is no outlet for physical indulgence in death, the body being dead and the spirit bare)?

A little context might help understand the difference here.  Swedenborg believes in a spiritual realm that is the source of the natural, so that might account for his disagreement with Boehme on this point.  For Swedenborg, the spirit after death is removed from the natural world and remains in the spiritual world, which is a world of states that correspond to things natural (think Plato's Forms).  So hell, being liberated, is a community of fallen angels that torment one another, constantly struggling to rise to the highest state of power.  So, sin is the cause of its own anguish (which stems from love of self), whereas Boehme says that the deprivation of sin is the cause of torment (as sin stems from love of the world).

Two pretty different ideas, but I think they're both good examples of how hell is necessary.  I'm not prepared to defend either of these thinkers, but I'm interested in whatever all of you think about what hell is---the hell question is a pretty popular one among atheists or opponents of the Christian faith and I find it kind of important to be prepared for.

[This message has been edited by Sunshine (04-14-2005 06:26 AM).]

Huan Yi
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Waukegan

1 posted 2004-12-18 08:28 PM

Emanuel Swedenborg not only conversed with the wisest dead
he would best them in theological discussions as would be attested
to by God shining a light on him so all his debaters would immediately
understand the rightness of his arguments. He spoke with heavenly
beings who resided on Mars, Venus and other planets, (which, I seem
to recall, he visited). One could say that Hell would be
being stuck in a room with Emanuel Swedenborg.

Christopher

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Purgatorial Incarceration

2 posted 2004-12-18 08:51 PM

In order to be truly effective, Hell would have to be subjective. So would the sin that took one there.

Then again, so would redemption...?

serenity blaze
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3 posted 2004-12-18 10:36 PM

and smile...Christopher just unwrote my speech.

(and thanks C)

Christopher

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4 posted 2004-12-19 12:48 PM

~DreamChild~
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in your dreams

5 posted 2004-12-24 11:43 AM

i would agree with huan yi, as spiritualists are called adulterers in the bible, and all manner of mediums and such
are condemned, unless they repent.

Local Parasite

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Transylconia, Winnipeg

6 posted 2004-12-24 12:15 PM

quote:
In order to be truly effective

I'm curious, Christopher, what do you mean by "effective?" I don't see how that's relevant.

I might add that both of these quotes account for subjectivity. Swedenborg says that the soul flees to the point most suited to itself after death, so hell is a reflection of subject rather than something imposed on them, and Boehme likewise maintains that it is the subject that is responsible for the state of "hell."

The argument is that death isn't different according to person, nor is the state of the soul after death, so the subject finds itself in heaven or hell according to a very subjective reaction to a permanent situation (at least for Boehme) or finds its own community based on its taste (which leads it to hell according to Swedenborg).

I admit I don't see where "effectiveness" is an issue.

Arnold M
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since 2004-09-05

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7 posted 2005-01-08 08:29 PM

Why is the concept of hell necessary?

All I have found in using a Bible concordance
and other references is that "hell" is from an Anglo-Saxon word "helan"= "to hide", and it was a good equivalent for "hades" = "the unseen, or imperceptible".

Unfortunately, most translators of the English Bibles brought in a preconceived idea of a burning region somewhere in the middle of the earth, where disembodied spirits of the wicked are being, and will be tormented forever.

Three words in Greek usually translated

"hell" are: geenna = a valley outside the walls of Jerusalem, where the refuse of the city was burning, during Jesus day on earth,
and was a place Jesus warned about that those whose deeds were evil, would not enter the kingdom to come but would be judged worthy of death, and their bodies thrown into geenna.

"Hades" = "the unseen, or the grave"; nothing to do with a "burning place of torment".

"Tartaroo" = "to thrust down to Tartarus", and is used to tell where fallen angels are being held prisoner in "gloomy caverns" until
they will be judged.

So, our choices are not "heaven or hell", but life or death. Christ said "I am come that ye may have life, and that more abundantly"

ice
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8 posted 2005-01-08 09:08 PM

I have a question ...

Does Jesus, anywhere in the bible, speak about hell...I mean outright say the word in a sentence?

Or is it just mentioned by the mortals who wrote the book?

__________ice
><>

Stephanos

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9 posted 2005-01-08 10:50 PM

ice,

yes he does.

I could give you some references if you want them.

Stephen.

ice
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10 posted 2005-01-08 11:15 PM

Please send them or post them here, Stephen..
It may change my feelings about his teachings, but what is, is...thanking you in advance...ice/ford

Stephanos

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11 posted 2005-01-09 12:04 PM

ice, no problem.

Some of these directly refer to "hell" by the use of the Greek word "Gehenna".  Others refer to hell only by inference, such as by descriptions of everlasting fire, and other such imagery.

There are enough, that I've just given you some of the ones in Matthew.  That's enough to start looking at.

Some of these, I just gave a verse or two, and not the surrounding context.  You'll have to read a little before and after the verses to get the fullest sense of what the passage is saying.

Also, it's good to remember that though Jesus taught about Hell as a warning ... he definitely did teach truths which give us hope to escape it.  He also taught about the bliss and beauties of Heaven.  There is light to balance these dark passages, (thank God).

Matthew

5:29
7:13
8:13
10:28
13:36-43 (Jesus explaining the parable of the tares 13:24-30)
18:8-9
23:13
25:30
25:41

Later,

Stephen.

ice
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12 posted 2005-01-09 10:12 AM

Thank you Stephen
I will look into those verses and the ones that surround them..

This may be a mistake for me, as I already have very little faith in the bible, in a general sense...

If Jesus proves to be an advocate or even an accepter of a punishment as great as hell is said to be, then he will be dropped down a notch on my hero list.

__________ice
><>

Local Parasite

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13 posted 2005-01-09 02:17 PM

quote:
If Jesus proves to be an advocate or even an accepter of a punishment as great as hell is said to be, then he will be dropped down a notch on my hero list.

Ice,

I don't think it's a matter of his "accepting" a punishment like this, as it is the impossibility of people being able to enter heaven. You might be interested in the quotes I mentioned in the post, which show how the existence of a Christian Hell isn't the fault of God but of the individual. Or, at least, I'd be interested in your reaction to them.

Brian

"God becomes as we are that we may be as he is." ~William Blake

Stephanos

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14 posted 2005-01-09 05:48 PM

Ice,

This may be only an echo of the sentiment of Brian's reply .... But if Hell were a real possibility, and Jesus' desire was to warn men in the hope that they might flee the other direction, I don't see how that would cast doubt on his character.  We all appreciate honest appraisals.  And whenever there is any real danger, (whether we are learning to drive a car, or to climb a mountain), the forthright sharing of unsavory possibilities by our teachers is usally interpreted as a great favor.

So to me, the question is whether or not Jesus was being honest ... whether indeed Hell is a reality, or only an invention of men's minds.  If he was being honest, that can't be a bad thing.  And even if he were mistaken, but honestly so, his character remains noble.

Also, consider that the whole episode of his betrayal and death on the cross, according to his own words, and the words of those who followed him, was in order to pay the penalty of our sins.  In other words, he gave his very life so that we could avoid the hell of which he warned us.  So if hell is a reality, not only did he tell us about it, but he DID a great and mighty act on our behalf to save us from that fate.  That's why the Church has always talked about his "vicarious suffering" on the cross.  One might forgive a man who seems overly preoccupied with hell, if he's truly willing to suffer it's torments in our place.

If you look at it that way,  (which is the Biblical outlook) he becomes not an "advocate" of hell as a mere doctrine of punishment, but a leading warrior against its very real influences upon the world of men.

Stephen.

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (01-10-2005 08:51 AM).]

Arnold M
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15 posted 2005-01-10 09:38 PM

Stephen, while it may seem I'm close minded, I am really not trying to be. My goal is to know and live by the truth of the Scriptures.

Question: Where in the Scriputes does it say
"the wages of sin is eternal torment" or words to that effect?
All I can find is the contrast of life versus death. Romans 6:23 reads, "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ, our Lord."

Question: If Christ died "in our room and stead", paid the penalty (death) for my sins,
then why do we die?

Juju
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In your dreams

16 posted 2005-01-12 08:54 PM

Hell was not made for humans It was made for the bad angels. There is a theory that Humans through themselves in to Hell. I like not to think about who goes to hell or why it is neccesarry. Not That I am pretending it doesn't exist. Sometimes such thoughts in my opinion are cruel.

Juju

Arnold M
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17 posted 2005-01-12 08:56 PM

Help me find "immortal soul" in the Scriptures.
I read in Gen.2:7 "God breathed into man's nostrols the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

And there are many verses that speak of a soul being dead, or can die, such as: Lev.21:
1; 24:17; Num.23:10; Judges 16:30; Psa.33:18;
78:50; Isa.53:12, etc.

When the soul dies, it must be because the person dies, for many times man is called
"soul" in the Scriptures: Gen.12:5; 14:21;
Exod.12:15,16; Acts 2:41; 14:22; 27:37, etc.

Arnold

Arnold M
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18 posted 2005-01-13 07:22 PM

As I see it, Swedenborg, Boehme, and other thelogical philosophers writing on this subject are writing from there own imaginations influenced by pagan philosophers, such as Plato. Only someone who has died and come back to life to tell about it, can speak the truth. There are a few instances in the Bible where dead ones were brought back to life. Other than Christ, the most prominent one was Lazarus, who had been dead three full days, and whom the Lord Jesus raised. Since, Lazarus was a believer, what marvelous things did he describe about heaven? None! When he was dead it was as if he were asleep. And "sleep" is a figure of death in the Scriptures. No one exists in some other "body" or "soul" while dead. The cure for death is resurrection.

One good verse to read and ponder is Jno 5:28
,29 "the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth,
those who have done good to the resurrection
of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgement," RSV.

But the good news today is that Christ died for our sins and believing this is life for evermore.

~DreamChild~
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19 posted 2005-01-14 09:43 PM

what about the terms "lake of fire", or as jesus so often said, "outer darkness".

and also, jesus said "there will be weeping, and gnashing of teeth"

and again... "where the worm dieth not"

don't know what verses, but it's there.

Arnold M
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20 posted 2005-03-12 03:09 AM

Hi Stephen and others, I've been away for awhile.  I'd like to get back on this thread.

Regarding the subjecting of hell, I would certainly agree that if you translate
"Geheena" as "hell", then in that translation
the bible speaks of hell. But translators go
too far to include "Hades", and "Tartaroo"
as "hell."

As we've no doubt heard, Geheena was a place
outside the walls of Jerusalem, which our Lord referred to eleven times, a place where
the refuse of the city was dumped and was ever burning,and worms were eating the rotting flesh and rubbish. A Jew could be judged guilty of death and sentenced to Geheena by the Sanhedrin, which was the worst sentence imaginable, for after being stoned to death his body would be cast into the fire.

Jesus came to seek and to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel, who,along with all Israel, were looking for the kingdom of the heavens, the golden age to be ushered in by the Messiah. I believe his warnings of
facing the judgement, in danger of the Sanhedrin (the highest governing council), and in danger of the fire of Geheena, were in effect in His day and will be during His Messianic reign. I'm pointing this out because Matt.5 sets forth rules for living to gain blessing or loss in the kingdom of the heavens to come.

Our Lord referred to Geheena eleven times and from all the contexts, it was a literal place in His day and will be again outside of the restored Jerusalem in the coming kingdom, as I understand it.

Of the verses listed by Stephen, four of them were warnings of being cast into Geheena, which is not some region in the center of the earth.

And may we look at the other verses listed:

Matt.7:13.."Go ye in through the strait gate,
because wide (is) the gate, and broad the way
that is leading to destruction, and many are those going in through it;"  Also 14, "And strait is the gate and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it." YLT.
I see nothing in these verses warning of hell, but they are metaphors telling  the
Israelites to walk the strait and narrow to
be worthy of the kingdom. Christ uses another
metaphor,later in the chapter, about building your house upon a rock, and not sand.  Again, the contrast is between life and destruction, or, death.

Matt.8:13. I believe Stephen meant 8:12. I'll
quote 10,11 and 12 from YLT, "Verily I say to you, not even in Israel so great faith have I found; and I say to you, that many from east and west shall come and recline (at
meat) with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the reign of the heavens, but the sons of the reign shall be cast forth to the outer darkness---there shall be weeping and gnash-
ing of teeth."
From commentaries, etc, I under stand that the "sons of the reign (kingdom)" are the religious leaders of the Jews, the self righteousness that Christ castigated, and whose offspring, evidently live through the Great Tribulation; and now, after Christ, the Son of Man returns to earth, a great feast is being given, with Christ, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all those saints whose hope was the Messianic kingdom.  The feast must be at night in some lighted hall, for the unworthy sons of the kingdom are cast forth to the outer darkness, where they weep and gnash their teeth with bitterness.

Must stop now.  Will continue later. Bick

Arnold M
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21 posted 2005-03-12 08:08 PM

Continuing on: Quoting from Young's L.T.:
Matt.10:28..."And do not be afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna."
Man is said to be a living soul, and from the scriptures one might define soul as the consciousness, the feelings, the desires produced by the breath of life vitalizing the body.  I understand this passage as Jesus
teaching to fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in gehenna in the coming kingdom, and thus, that person would not be alive to enjoy all the kingdom blessings.
If someone is persecuted and killed, it's true that his body and soul die, but as a righteous person he would be resurrected and enjoy all the blessings of the kingdom.

Matt.13:36-43...Here Christ explains the parable of the wheat and darnel. Darnel is figurative of humans who offend and practice lawsessness at the end of the age when Christ, the Son of man, has returned to the earth with His angels to establish His kingdom.  The angels gather out of His kingdom the "darnel" and cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, which I interpret as fear and bitterness experienced before they die in the furnace of fire.
It doesn't indicate if the furnace of fire is Geheena or the lake of fire which has been created, maybe somewhere near Jerusalem.  I would say it is the lake of fire described in Matt,25:41.

Matt.18:8,9..."And if thy hand or thy foot doth cause thee to stumble, cut them off and cast from thee; it is good for thee to enter the life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast to the fire
the age-during.  And if thine eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee; it is good for thee one-eyed to enter into the life, rather than having two eyes to
be cast to the gehenna of the fire."
Again, gehenna may be called hell, but it will be a place outside of Jerusalem.

Matt.23:13 (I believe it should be 15):
"Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye go round the seas and the dry land to make one proselyte, and whenever it may happen---ye make him a son of gehenna twofold more than yourselves."
While the scribes and Pharisees were self-righteous hypocrites in our Lord's day, they weren't worried about the judgement of gehenna; but the lord who knew their hearts,
said one of their proselytes would be worthy of gehenna twice as much as them. In 15:33. Christ railing at them says, "Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgement of gehenna?"

Matt.25:30..."And the unprofitable servant cast ye forth to the outer darkness; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth."
I suppose one could interpret a number of trues from this parable (one of many concerning the kingdom of the heavens).  If, when the returning lord was asking his servants to give account, it was night and they were in a lighted house, may be conjecture, but when the slothful servant is thrown into the outer darkness, it makes sense to me.  It is true, "hell" can be interpreted to meen many things, including a firey furnace or outer darkness.
To me, this parable means the slothful servant didn't use his talent for his lord Christ) and will lose any rewards in the kingdom of the heavens.

Matt.25:41..."Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers." and verse 46..."And these shall
go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."
To many, this fire (the lake of fire described in Rev.20:10), is one of the key scriptures  ascribing unending punishment to the wicked, because the Greek word "eonian"-
agelasting, is interpreted as 'everlasting' or "eternal".  A person has to make his own choice. But even if "eternal" was the view, it could not be true because, those being punished for how they treated Christ's brethren, must still be resurrected and appear before the Great White Throne, for the judging of their whole life.

Since there are differences of opinion, I'm sure there will be more discussion.
The Lord bless you,  Arnold

Denise

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22 posted 2005-03-13 04:08 PM

I've missed you, Arnold. Welcome back! And the Lord bless you, too, abundantly!

Arnold M
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23 posted 2005-03-18 08:30 PM

Dream child, while there is a lot of them, please read my posts 55.

The lake of fire, while not translated "hell"
will be a literal place in which, after Christ judges them at the great white throne,
those whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into. This will be their second death.

Regarding "cast into outer darkness," see my posts 55.

More later.

Arnold M
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24 posted 2005-03-24 01:34 AM

Dream child: Those are good questions. let's look at them.
The lake of fire is mentioned five times in Revelation: (1)19:20: The beast and the false prophet (Satan impowered human beings)were thrown alive into the lake of fire.
(2) 20:10: The devil is cast into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet were, and will be tormented day and night for ever and ever (litrally for the ages of the ages).
(3)&(4) 20:11-15: After being judged at the Great White Thrown, those whose names were not in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire, as well as Death and Hades.
This is the second death.
The popular view is that all will suffer eternal torment, regardless of whether they have sinned a little or a lot. This used to bother me, because, how could that be a fair, right judgement?  Then, after carefully
reading Romans 2, I understood that God will render to every unsaved human exactly what they deserve.  And, I believe it will be at the Great White Throne, with Christ as the judge.  Here are the words of Paul using the RSV:  "For he will render to every man according to his works;...those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.  There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,..."  I see these judgemments as both physical and mental. And after exacting His anger on them, what is the final ration of sin? It is DEATH. That is why I believe those cast into the Lake of Fire die and stay dead until resurrected.
(5) 21:8:  Reiterates that the wicked,the evil, etc, will be in the lake of fire which is the second death. They will have no part in the New Earth.

All for now.  Arnold

Cloud 9
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25 posted 2005-03-24 03:25 PM

One of 7 reasons not to mess with children.


1.  A little girl was talking to her teacher about
whales. The teacher said it was physically impossible for a
whale to swallow a human because even though it was a very large mammal its
throat was very small. The little girl stated that Jonah was swallowed by a
whale. Irritated, the teacher reiterated that a whale could
not swallow a human; it was physically impossible.
  The little girl said, "When I get to heaven I will
ask Jonah". The teacher asked, "What if Jonah went to hell?"
The little girl replied, "Then you ask him ".

Essorant
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26 posted 2005-03-27 10:22 PM

It is hard to believe a man's eternity is based on a little blink of mortal life time.

Stephanos

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27 posted 2005-03-28 06:33 PM

Essorant,

It's also hard to believe your entire physical life is based upon the "blink" of physical conception, and the manipulation of a few specialized cells, yet we now know that that is exactly the case.

The orthodox Christian belief is that a person's will, or the outplay of his or her life on Earth, is related to the timbre of that person's eternity ... but not that the whole of eternity is determined by that.  It is only part of the whole picture.

Isn't nature itself full of examples of smaller things that have vast import? ... of far reaching effects that are dependent upon modest causes?

I find it much harder to believe that eternity would have no relation to this life, like two planes that never intersect.

Stephen.

Essorant
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28 posted 2005-03-28 07:54 PM

Stephenos

But how does going to heaven or hell include judging one based on what he or she does in an eternal life, instead of this mortal life? When one is sent to heaven or hell is it earned from more than what s/he did in one mortal life?

Local Parasite

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29 posted 2005-03-28 08:55 PM

Essorant,

Whether time in eternity is the same as real time seems to be a question worth asking.  If life is just a short time, which it is (read Psalm 39), what is eternity but a very long time?  Well, there's an answer to this.

The fact is that in the physical world, time works quite differently than in the spiritual world.

This can even be observed in reality, through human perception, as there is a definite distinction between anthropological time and cosmological time---for the individual human being, there really is nothing but the "eternal present," or the now that always is---any conceptions of "past" are recollections, drawing to an instant those things of the past, which is made possible by the faculty of human memory.  Spiritually, or from the perspective of consciousness, there is only the eternal present---any chronological progress that we observe in terms of past or future are worldly, are other than the time experienced by the human spirit.

Thus, if the human spirit is separated from the world in which time exists, there is only the one, the eternal present, the alpha and the omega, the first and the last at a secluded point.  Eternity is not an endless line, but an echoing punctuation mark.

Brian

"God becomes as we are that we may be as he is." ~William Blake

Stephanos

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30 posted 2005-03-28 09:37 PM

Essorant,

Heaven or Hell depends upon what a person does with Jesus Christ. That involves more than God determining one's eternal destiny based upon behavior. And God, being all wise, knows whether or not a person will ever believe on Christ. I believe what is ascertained of an individual in one lifetime would not be different if that person had a thousand lifetimes, else God would grant that. I believe no one is damned to Hell without the utmost measures on God's part to help that person avert such an end. In fact the utmost measures were taken at Golgotha, and I'm not so sure it requires more than a lifetime for a person to come to terms with the Gospel.

I'll bet divine wisdom is able to tell how much time is enough time.

Stephen.

Essorant
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31 posted 2005-03-29 04:38 PM

So in only a small mortal life man is capable of being good or evil; but in a whole eternity, he may only be one or the other?

Stephanos

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32 posted 2005-04-02 07:52 PM

Essorant,

I'm not sure that it's about being "good or evil" in this life, but rather coming to recognize that the only real goodness that exists is from God.  And while some of that goodness should manifest in this present life, eternal life is nevertheless based upon God, not upon mere management of personal behavior.

If you think of it in that way ... then eternity represents either coming back into union or unity with the goodness of God, or failing to do so.  Of course Christians believe that it's only through Christ that we can come back home.

Goodness is what we were meant for.  Personally I'm thankful that eternity will show a resolution rather than a muddle, a purity rather than the disheartening mixture that we all know now ... the knowledge of good and evil.

Stephen.

Essorant
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33 posted 2005-04-03 12:50 PM

"  Personally I'm thankful that eternity will show a resolution rather than a muddle, a purity rather than the disheartening mixture that we all know now ... the knowledge of good and evil."

I guess I don't really believe in eternity that way.
I think that all things are always "together" in a universe, a oneness rather than "seperated"
The reason things are not seperated is because the less physical "states" in between things that seem to suggest "seperation" are really "part of them" of them too, and therefore in a spiritual way AND a physical way, everything is always touching and influencing every other thing.  People think the moon and the earth are not "touching" each other.  But the light and space between them is truly part of what they are as well, so that in a universal sense they don't end at the air and light between the distinctions "moon" and "earth" but they continue into that like shades of a spectrum "graduate" into other shades, so that they really do touch each other, even though they look seperate.  Our attention and distinction is so stressed on the "shapes" that we don't really "add" into the "whole" the less physical space between those shapes, but treat it as if it is not part of them.
We often treat light, darkness, and space, as seperate things, and in contrast with other seperate things that are more solid, but I don't think these are "seperate" at all; I think there is one spectrum becoming different shapes/shades/states, so that we make a distinction of the differences that the same underlying "spectrum" has, and then treat those differences as if they are seperate things, as if they are independant of each other.  The spectrum includes much more spiritual things such as space and thoughts, but also all things that are more physical.
Physical and spiritual must not be seperations but rather distinctions.
Everything is the same universe, the same existance and the same matter, just in a different shape.
As long as you are in the universe, which I do truly believe is the eternal "whole" I think you live with everthing else that is in the universe, so that no no matter how far you are from it, you are always touching and part of it.
If you are in a lowest basement called hell of the universe, yet you still live with the goodness that is in the highest loft, that might be called heaven.  If you live in the highest loft called heaven, you still live with the evil that is in the lowest hell.  A "whole" and eternal universe must have everything in it, not just some things.
The whole universe or spectrum is not God, but it is everything, just like our body is everything that it has.  But the universe, I think, is like a body that IS other bodies as well.  In respect to that therefore everything is a body but a "body part" too.
God is the head of the universe and humans and animals are the toes; Angels must be the fingers.

Thus we are never seperate, even though we are strongly distinct and different from each other.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (04-04-2005 02:27 PM).]

Stephanos

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34 posted 2005-04-06 10:23 AM

Essorant,

I wasn't talking about the distinction between physical and spiritual (which is often a false one, though not always), but between good and evil, especially the moral kind.

It's a Gnostic belief that the physical body is bad, and the spiritual is good, not a Christian belief.

But it would seem to me that a naturalistic belief like pantheism (or anything monistic, describing a hermetically sealed cosmos), has the perrenial problem of never being able to hope for any golden age, where wrongs are righted.  And it's all because according to that view, there is no fundamental difference (apart from something completely subjective) between right and wrong, or between good and evil.  And in fact most of the religions based upon such a monism, deal with this problem by denial ... by saying that the distinction between good and evil is illusory, and a part of "unenlightened" existence.  The only problem is that in that statement itself, there is the tacit assumption that enlightenment is better than unenlightenment, that one is good and the other evil.  So in the end, such belief-attempts don't get rid of the distinction, but merely push it back a step, hidden behind certain dogmas ... often not even realizing that it is ever present, and really unavoidable.

Therefore if you don't agree that a "muddle" of that sort will (or at least should be) straightened out, then I believe you face the same dilemma as the monists.

But as far as the belief in things being harmoniously and gloriously "one" ... I believe that that state of affairs will ultimately be realized, with the caveat that much will be disposed of, renewed, and brought back to a state of original beauty and coherence.  The eastern view is not so much a wrong view, as it is a premature view.  And because it is premature, it is too inclusive.

Stephen.

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35 posted 2005-04-06 11:17 PM

Absolutely, distinctions are always important, Stephenos.
But I emphasize that distinctions may not necessarily indicate that that is being distinguished is seperate and independant from anything or everything else, rather than just a differing state of the same universe. The same universe, the same existance, the same matter, just in a different shape/state/degree. I no longer question that everything exists, nor that everything exists forever, both are bound to each other; but I wonder if anything or anyone is ever seperate and independant from anything or anyone else. Just because two things strongly contrast, doesn't mean they are not still of the same spectrum. Purple and green contrast, but they are still colours of the same light. That is in the reflection we call purple is the same light that is in the light we call green. Although there are many colours, there is only one "light" Every star is distinct from every other star, and yet they look to me like the same light. Even shade and darkness seems just a less bright and direct state of light. Even "space" beyond that seems like " darkness" seperate from light, may yet again be the same light in a different "grade". The contrasts between a rock and idea, good and evil, don't mean for sure that a rock and an idea, good and evil are not just different grades of the same thing either; it truly may just means that these distinctions are so strong and needed in our life that it is almost impossible to ever imagine them as equally existant, and equally, though in many different ways, dependant on everyone and everything, a whole universe.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (04-06-2005 11:55 PM).]

Stephanos

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36 posted 2005-04-07 12:03 PM

Essorant,

do you feel just as comfortable with the eternal coexistence and coequality of two things like hateful malice and good will?  It's too easy to imagine that the only contrasts within the universe fall under the category of physical properties, which are easily reconcilable, and congruent with our mental acceptance, at least in theory.  I know of no objection I would have in the eternal co-existence of optical darkness and light.  But is it so easy to try and marry spiritual darkness and light?  Or to wed moral darkness and light?

When we try to reconcile devils and angels, perversion and purity, beauty and ugliness, we are not so comfortable with the compound (and rightly so).

The moralist you usually are, Essorant, would seem to have a hard time with your assertion that everything in the universe (including whatever is evil) is just a necessary and eternal part of the whole.  If that were really true, then your usual moral voice becomes nothing but a very arbitrary kind of unenlightened "noise".

But, since I don't believe that is true, I'll continue to think that the moralist in you is closer to the truth than the monist in you.

Stephen.

Midnitesun

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37 posted 2005-04-07 12:15 PM

I still cannot relate to the need for Heaven or Hell. I must be from another planet, as neither location (as described herein) appear as necessary, and neither one appeals to me on any emotional, spiritual or intellectual level.
*sigh* the arguments for/or against slide unnoticed past my brain and my heart.

ROTFLMAO! I just read what Cloud 9 wrote, and am having laughter fits!

how funny!

Essorant
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38 posted 2005-04-07 02:42 AM

"do you feel just as comfortable with the eternal coexistence and coequality of two things like hateful malice and good will?"

Yes, I feel much more comfortable because it means that everything else equally coexists too.
If something for some reason somehow is "not existant" at all, or only partially existant, or only existant at some time and not another, or only at some segregated places, or else with some potentiality of becoming nonexist, then anyone could say anything, anywhere, and at any time may not exist , or may be more or less existant than something else.
Therefore beleiving that everything is always equally existant all at one time and place: the universe, makes me feel much more comfortable and confidant.

Good exists because good exists.  Not because evil ceases to exist.

Essorant
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39 posted 2005-04-07 12:58 PM

Stephenos

Imagine that you found a square and circle in a room, and that there was no way the square or circle may be taken out of the room.
If you came back and found only a circle, what would your first thought be?
Despite the rule that it may not be taken out of the room by anyone, you perhap may still think that someone took the square out of the room.  Or else, you may think that it is nonexistant, and was never there to begin with!
Those are ways of approaching things in respect to human activities being involved where things we know come into and out of our sight from taking them out of sight, and from illusionists that try to propose that things we experienced in one way or another were only in one way or another "illusions" and  never truly existed.
If the "room" is the whole universe though, those things make even less sense
In a whole universe if a "shape" is no longer present, then that shape is not "taken away" but rather is become another shape now.  So that a circle may be there not just of a circle that was there, but also of a "square" that was there too.  The square became the circle too. And neither ceased to exist.
With a change like that in mind, that is why hell makes no sense.
A man shall not be a man forever, let alone do the evil he did forever, unless God denies him the opportunity to change, by sending him to hell

Ron

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40 posted 2005-04-07 02:04 PM

LOL. Go cut off your hand, Essorant. Then you can tell us how it still exists, albeit in a different shape.

I would have to guess that anyone much past puberty knows what it's like to find love and then -- through one's own neglect or betrayal -- mess it up royally. It hurts. We immediately want to take back our actions or recommit ourselves to doing what we know we should have always been doing. We want to change. Sometimes we get that opportunity, maybe not just once but many times. Sooner or later, however, perhaps after we've blown chance after chance, our failure to return love in a faithful and meaningful way can have only one result. We find ourselves alone, forever separated from the one we love, knowing the hopelessness we feel is entirely our own fault.

Multiply that heartache and sense of loss by eternity, and you have Hell.

Arnold M
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41 posted 2005-04-08 03:06 AM

Dreamchild, regarding "casting into the outer darkness", my reference to my post 55 was wrong.
"Casting into the outer darkness, where men will weep and gnash their teeth," is in only three places: Matt. 8:12, 22:13, and 25:30.
A careful reading of the verses in their contexts, shows each account has to do with the coming millenial kingdom on earth.

In 8:12, Jesus describes a royal banquet with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (and I'm sure all the other Jewish saints),who have been resurrected.  The "sons of the kingdom", will, I believe, be those Israelites who had
little or no faith during the time prior to Jesus coming in power and great glory, and
therefore are not allowed to be apart of the great celebration.  This story seems to imply
that the banquet was in a lighted banquet hall, and those self-righteous Israelites, who think they will naturally be part of the kingdom blessings, will not be allowed in but are thrown out into the darkness, and of course will be so bitter and unhappy they will weep and gnash their teeth.

22:13 is a parable of the kingdom of the heavens about a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, and many were invited but wouldn't come, so strangers were invited (who must have been given wedding garments), but one man tried to get in with no wedding garment.  He was bound up and cast into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.  Again,if it was night, the wedding hall was well lighted and outside was the darkness.  Or, "outer darkness" may be figurative of the bitterness and unhappiness of those who can not be apart of the joys of the kingdom.

25:30 is again a parable regarding the kingdom of the heavens.  In this metaphor, servants are given talents to invest while their master is away. The first two servants doubled theirs, but the one with one talent did nothing with his.  When the master returned he praised the first two, but was angry with the last one who did nothing with his.  The worthless servant was cast into the outer darkness; their men will weep and gnash their teeth.

There is nothing in any of these accounts that "outer darkness, etc" is "hell".

Arnold

Stephanos

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42 posted 2005-04-11 11:55 PM

quote:
A man shall not be a man forever, let alone do the evil he did forever, unless God denies him the opportunity to change, by sending him to hell

"The Landlord does not make the blackness. The blackness is there already wherever the taste of mountain-apple has created the vermiculate will. What do you mean by a hole? Something that ends. A black hole is blackness enclosed, limited. And in that sense the Landlord has made the black hole. He has put into the world a Worst Thing. But evil of itself would never reach a worst: for evil is fissiparous and could never in a thousand eternities find any way to arrest its own reproduction. If it could, it would no longer be evil: for Form and Limit belong to the good. The walls of the black hole are the tourniquet on the wound through which the lost soul else would bleed to a death she never reached. It is the Landlord’s last service to those who will let him do nothing better for them.

... Then the Guide sang:

'God in his mercy made
The fixed pains of Hell
That misery might be stayed
God in his mercy made
Eternal bounds and bade
It's waves no further swell
God in his mercy made
The fixed pains of Hell.'

(C.S. Lewis, from "The Pilgrim's Regress')

Stephen.

Essorant
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43 posted 2005-04-13 02:07 PM

Hell is the way men used to punish men, not God. If it was a "microcosm" of God's justice system our justice system could not possibily do better. But it does. God led us to democracy because all men deserve choice, and civilized justice, not because they deserve to be thrown into a fire pit for doing something wrong.

Arnold M
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44 posted 2005-04-13 10:30 PM

From my research, I find no concept in the Bible originals, or copies thereof, that man has an eternal soul that, after death, will enjoy blessings in heaven or conscious torment in a place called hell.

God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life and Adam became a living soul (Gen.2:7).

"Soul" is used for the total person many places in the bible, and in our secular conversations.

Many verses say that the soul can die, be destroyed, etc.

A word study of "soul" in the bible, shows to me that soul is the consciousness, the feelings , the desires, produced by the breath vitalizing the body.

The pagan Platonic philosophy of the "immortality of the soul" was accepted by a number of fourth century Christian theologians, headed by Saint Augustine, and while prevalent in orthodox theology, it is wrong.

Death is the opposite of life.  The cure for death is resurrection.

Arnold

Stephanos

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45 posted 2005-04-14 05:03 PM

Essorant:

quote:
Hell is the way men used to punish men, not God.

That may be an oversimplification on your part. Though cruel men may have used the doctrine of hell (to be distinquished from hell itself) to exert control over others through fear, good and kind men too have believed in hell ... that if there is a state of bliss and reward, there must also be an opposite.

quote:
If it was a "microcosm" of God's justice system our justice system could not possibily do better. But it does.

Does it? We still punish people Essorant. There is still life in prison, and death sentences issued from the courts of this democracy. (I'm not defending those things here, I'm merely pointing out that there are presently things in our system which are actually much closer to your ideas of "Hell" than to your ideas of a more sublime and humane "justice".

quote:
God led us to democracy because all men deserve choice

Exactly.  I know no better description of the will of choice ... than that people should be able to choose hell, as terrible as that may be, if they will do no other.  The doctrine of hell has never been that God would allow anyone to go there easily, or without pains on his own part.

Even in a democracy, there is the possiblity of choosing the wrong, and sufferring ill consequences.  Freedoms and rights can and must be taken away, because of certain failures.  Even speaking of purely temporal things, those consequences are sometimes irreversible.

quote:
and civilized justice, not because they deserve to be thrown into a fire pit for doing something wrong.

What exactly do you mean by civilized justice?

Think of it this way Essorant ... Even though a prison might seem more civilized to you than a fire pit, some of the internal distresses people have in situations are as fiery as any literal flame.  When justice takes the form of punishment, you use the term "civilized" to mean "mild", and that milder is always better.  But those words have never meant the same thing.

Maybe the unquenchable fire, and the undying worm, are descriptions of things like unlawful desires that go forever unmet, a conscience that has no quiet and rest in the light of truth, and a regret that is never remitted.  Not something that God actively does to us, as much as something we do to ourselves in the searching light of truth, when we don't accept the grace of God.

People still feel things like that in the most "civilized" settings.  Some of the finest beds in the world, have been beds of torment for those who lie in them.

Stephen.

Essorant
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46 posted 2005-04-15 03:36 PM

Stephenos,

"That may be an oversimplification on your part.  Though cruel men may have used the doctrine of hell (to be distinquished from hell itself) to exert control over others through fear, good and kind men too have believed in hell ... that if there is a state of bliss and reward, there must also be an opposite. "

What is the difference between what hell is supposed do and what a weapon is supposed to do?
The belief that we should teach men thro pain to begin with I think is severly mistaken.  Many wrongs had never been done if that false idea wasn't there and acted upon. I think it stands true for people of every age, that pain is not a true teacher:  only a true teacher is.


"Does it?  We still punish people Essorant.  There is still life in prison, and death sentences issued from the courts of this democracy.  (I'm not defending those things here, I'm merely pointing out that there are presently things in our system which are actually much closer to your ideas of "Hell" than to your ideas of a more sublime and humane "justice"."

The reason we do much better is because we don't make pain the center of punishment. Probably any form of punishment may border on some form of pain.  But overall, I think punishment is more and more governd with the pursuits of rehabilitation, communication, helping a wrongdoer, and making sure that his life is still safe and protected, and whereever possible giving him hope, and  letting him know he may change for the better.  Despite needing to punish a man, we still give him comfort to know that he may change and be helped and that he still has life and honour no matter what he said or did.
What we may do for wrong doers in our democracies better than what people think God may do for wrong-doers when they say he sends them to hell, because hell doesn't bring any idea forth but causing pain.


"Exactly.  I know no better description of the will of choice ... than that people should be able to choose hell, as terrible as that may be, if they will do no other.  The doctrine of hell has never been that God would allow anyone to go there easily, or without pains on his own part."

It doesn't seem to agree with "the will of choice" though.  It suggests that one is "fated" ONLY to the "worst" for a worse choice.  And what choice does a man have when he is in hell?  Does he have a choice to have any comfort or to help himself, or be helped?  No, all he has is pain.  No comfort. No choice.

"What exactly do you mean by civilized justice?"

Civilized justice always defends man's high life and worth, no matter how low his words and deeds are.  He is punished, and respected at the same time.  Respected not for what he said or did, but for what he is: a man and a man that wield his own will and change, and is never "locked" into only one pattern of behavior..  No matter how many times a man repeats a foul crime that civilzed justice and respect must be there by which punishment should be goverened, because without it punishment will become like it was in dictatorships and monarchies.
The justice system is flawed.  And we could go on for ages bringing up the flaws and the foul crimes that it commits.  But it still is a thousand times more civilized than sentencing men to torture for  not practicing the same religion.


"Maybe the unquenchable fire, and the undying worm, are descriptions of things like unlawful desires that go forever unmet, a conscience that has no quiet and rest in the light of truth, and a regret that is never remitted.  Not something that God actively does to us, as much as something we do to ourselves in the searching light of truth, when we don't accept the grace of God. ?

I don't have any problem expressing hell as something like that.  But the doctrine usually doesn't seem to suggest something that has any heavenly or good things, such as hope,  mixed with that too.  It just seems to suggest an end altogether.  We made our bad choice so we end up paying the price for ever through pain.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (04-15-2005 05:32 PM).]

Ron

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47 posted 2005-04-15 11:50 PM

quote:
We made our bad choice so we end up paying the price for ever through pain.

The consequence of ingesting too much cyanide isn't a punishment, Essorant, be it just or otherwise. It's simply cause and effect, an invariant bond between one thing and another, a bond that can't be broken without ultimately surrendering to chaos.

Cause. Effect. There aren't any do-overs, no mulligans, no second chances. One thing leads to another and, for good or ill, we go on from there.

Essorant
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48 posted 2005-04-16 12:30 PM

That makes more sense.

But is that really how traditional lore portrays "hell"?

XOx Uriah xOX
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49 posted 2006-04-05 12:06 PM

In the Hebrew of the Old Testament there was Sheol...representing the grave or the abode of the dead.   In the Greek of the New Testament this becomes Hades and carries the same meaning as Sheol. Moving on to the time of King James we see the word Hell come into being.  Hell is an Old English word that meant...to hide away, as to cover with dirt.  It was used in ways such as...Hell the potatos.  Today we...Hill them.   But Hell was intended to express the same idea as the grave or abode of the dead that sheol and hades had carried.  The doctrine of eternal punishment did not become an accepted teaching until well into the 2nd and almost 3rd century after Jesus.
As Hell is thought to be today...it would exist as an eternal monument to the victories of Satan.   I find it odd that anyone could imagine God allowing such a thing.
But...I will let the scriptures speak for themselves concerning the "freewill" that gains us Heaven or Hell and who is to be saved.  Everyone is free to edit these as they see fit or to just remove them from their Bibles if they cause disturbance.

Jer 10:23   I know that the way of man is not in himself: It is not
in Man that walketh ... to direct his steps.

Freewill?

Rom 9:16   It is not of him that willeth or of him that runneth, but
of God that showeth mercy.

Freewill?

John 6:44  No man can come unto me except the Father which hath sent me
draw him.

Freewill?

Proverbs 16:33  The lot is cast into the lap (center)  but... the whole
disposing (every decision)  thereof ... is of the Lord

Freewill?

Proverbs 16:9  A Mans heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth
his steps.

Freewill?

Just as it was God who sent Moses to free the people ... It was also
God...who hardened Pharoahs heart...to deny Moses.
Exodus 9:12   10:1    10:20    10:27   11:10   14:8

Freewill?

1 Chr 21:1  And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to
number Israel...

Now...The same story in... 2 Sam 24:1   And again, the anger of the
L O R D   was kindled against Israel, and He moved David against them
to say,  Go, number Israel and Judah

Yes... Pharoahs heart was hardened...but who was behind it?
Yes... David was provoked by satan...but who was behind it?
Yes... Job was tormented by satan....but who was behind it?

Romans 9:11-24    (for the children not yet being born, nor having
done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election
might stand, not of works but of  H I M  who calls),
12:  it was said to her, " The older shall serve the younger."
13:  As it is written, " Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

Now look at this...thus far     Before they were even born...Before
either of them had done any good or evil...God had already declared
that He loved Jacob and hated Esau.   That the  P U R P O S E  of
GOD might stand     According to...election     N O T  of  W O R K S
.... but of  H I M   who   C A L L S         Glory to God

Does God love Jacob and hate Esau...because of any of the Freewill
CHOICES they have made?

14:  What shall we say then?  Is there unrighteousness with God?
Certainly not !
15:  For He says to Moses, " I will have mercy on whomever I will have
mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."
16:  So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of
God who shows mercy
17:  For the scripture says to the Pharoah, "For this very purpose I
have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name
may be declared in all the earth."
18:   Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He
hardens.
19:  You will say to me then, " Why does He still find fault ?
For who has resisted His will ?"
20:  But indeed O man, who are you to reply against God?  Will the
thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like
this ?"
21:  Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump
to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22: What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His POWER known,
endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for
destruction.
23: and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels
of His mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24: even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the
Gentiles?

There are vessels....prepared for honor and glory
And there are vessels...prepared for dishonor, wrath, and destruction.

It is ALL....GOD

There is  N O  Power ... but of  G O D

Col 1:16   For by Him   A L L   things were created that are in heaven
and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or
dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through
Him and for Him.

There is NO power... but of God

Shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it ?
                                                       Amos 3:6

I form the Light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord do all these things
                                                    Isaiah 45:7

The Lord hath made  A L L  things for Himself: YEA, even the wicked
for the Day of Evil.
                                                     Proverbs 16:4

Freewill?
1 Tim 2:4    Who will have  ALL  men to be saved and come to the
knowledge of truth

How many?

John 12:32    And I , if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw
ALL men unto me

How many will be drawn?

Romans 14:11    For it is written, "As I live, saith the Lord, EVERY
knee shall bow to me, and EVERY tongue shall confess to God"

How many?

Phil 2:10    EVERY knee ,  EVERY tongue      Again

2 Peter 3:9   ...Not willing that  ANY  should perish , but that
  ALL  should come to repentance

How many is He willing to let perish?

1 Tim 4:10   ...who is the saviour of  ALL men, specially of those
that believe.

How many ?   Specially...but not limited to...those that believe.
He is...specially the saviour of those that believe...because...they
are aware of it...and have the peace and joy of knowing.

Lam 3: 31-32   For the Lord will not cast off forever    But though
He grief, yet will He have compassion according to the multitude of
His mercies.

Eph 1:10   That in the fullness of Times He might gather together
in ONE  ALL things in Christ, both which are in Heaven, and which are
in earth, even in Him.

Have we reached the...fullness of Times?   Dont sell God short
Do you think you can number Israel?
1 Chronicles 21: 1-3   And Satan stood up against Israel and provoked
David to...number Israel
2... and bring the number of them to me, that I may KNOW it
3...  Joab answered " THE LORD MAKES HIS PEOPLE AN HUNDRED TIMES SO
MANY MORE AS THEY BE"

2 Sam 14:14  ... God does not take away a life; but He devises means
so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him.

Rom 11:26  And so   ALL  Israel shall be saved ...

Col 1:20  ...to reconcile  ALL  things unto Himself; by Him, I say,
whether they be things in earth or things in Heaven

Romans 5:18   Therefore, as by the offense of One ...judgment came
upon  ALL men to condemnation; Even so by the righteousness of One...
The Free Gift came upon  ALL men unto justification of Life.

Is it a ...Free Gift?   or must it be earned?    Why does the first
ALL written above mean...EVERYONE     But the second  ALL...is Limited?

1 Cor 15:22  For as in Adam... ALL die , Even so...in Christ shall  ALL
be made Alive

Once again...who has deceived you?  Why does the 1st  ALL mean...
EVERYONE    But the 2nd   ALL  is....limited ?
Did you....CHOOSE  to be born under condemnation?  Did you  CHOOSE to
be born under Adam?    What makes you think you  CHOOSE  to be in
Christ?     No one can come to the Son except the Father draw them
Just as He drew you...He will draw others.   God does the work.
Are you saved by....GRACE   which is...un merited favor    Nothing
you can...earn    Nothing you can...deserve   Just the Mercy and
Grace of the Father     or   Are you saved by...A  CHOICE  you have
made?   Was it...YOU   who made the choice?  Or   Was it the Father
who led you to a point in your Life...that led you to the Knowledge
of Truth?

Oh!!!  But what about those who are in Satan?

Do you not know....There is  NO  power...but of  GOD?
Satan has no power of his own.  He is but a tool of God...that will
cease to exist when his purpose is fulfilled.
If there is ANY other power...Then  GOD  is not sovereign.
Is God sovereign?
Could Satan torment Job...without Gods permission?  Was Satan limited
in the extent of his torment?
Just as it was the Lord who sent Moses to free the people...It was also
the Lord who hardened Pharoahs heart...to deny Moses.
There is NO power...but of...GOD.

1 Cor 5:5  To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the
Flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Yes, Satan destroys.   Yes, Satan torments.   And in doing so...MANY
are led to Christ.

The Father has a destination for each of us.  It is His  WILL that we
reach this destination.   Like Jonah , who God wanted to go to Nineveh
We can either...Go willingly...in accordance with Gods WILL...
Or...We can enter the belly of a big fish...and suffer...until...OUR
will is changed...and then ...go to Nineveh.

1 Cor 3:13-15   Every mans work shall be made manifest; for the day
shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by FIRE ; and the Fire
shall try every mans work of what sort it is
14...  If any mans work abide which he hath built there upon, he shall
receive a reward
15...  If any mans work shall be burned , he shall suffer loss , but
he himself shall be saved ; yet so as by Fire

This is the...CLEANSING  Fire of God

Mal 3:3  He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver

How does a silver refiner purify the silver?  He holds it in the
flames...burning away all impurities...until...He can see his own
image in the work.  Glory to God

MANY...read in the scriptures...That it is Gods

                           W I L L

that  NONE should perish

MANY...pray...     Thy

                          W I L L

BE DONE

and MANY say," Its a shame that it wont be that way "

They say it with ... their words     They say it with...their doubts
Where is their Faith?
You have seen many scriptures that speak of Gods plan for  ALL
In the beginning...God said...LET US MAKE MAN...IN OUR IMAGE
Is 46:10  Declaring the end...from the beginning...My council
shall stand , and I will do all my pleasure.

1 Cor 3:15  If any mans work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss,
But he himself shall be saved; yet so as by Fire
1 Cor 5:5  Deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the
Flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus.

Some call  HELL    The Lake of Fire     Is it?

Rev 20:14   And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This
is the second death.
Notice that death and hell are together.  Death and the abode of the
Dead...are often linked in scripture.   But.... Is   HELL....being
thrown into HELL ?   Therefore the lake of fire is not the same as Hell

Look at Rev 20:13   ... death and hell delivered up the dead which
were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

So... They are ALREADY in HELL?   And have not yet been judged?
Then... They are taken OUT of HELL... to be judged...To see if they
should be cast into HELL?    HUH???   How does that work?  Does it make
sense to you?

Dont let the Mother of Harlots or her prostitute daughters deceive you.  Dont be caught up in
the CONFUSION which is BABYLON    Babylon means...confusion
The Lord says ... Come OUT from her.

Search the Spirit of Truth that the Father has placed within you.
Know the PEACE of the FATHER who...IS.... LOVE
Agape... UNCONDITIONAL   LOVE      Stop putting...conditions on it.
Enter into HIS rest      Be  STILL   and     K N O W    that  HE  is
G O D
Is God...Love?   1 John 4:8
Is it righteous to to try and bring others to Christ...through
FEAR tactics?   1 John 4:18  There is no fear in Love; but perfect
love casteth out fear: because F E A R  hath   T O R M E N T .
He that feareth is not made perfect in Love.

Here we have...FEAR and TORMENT linked together.  Is it...of GOD...
or...of LOVE...to instill these things upon our brethren?
Are these the qualities of GODs nature that we are to show others?

1 Cor 13: 7,8   LOVE... "beareth all things, believeth all things,
hopeth all things, endureth all things    Love never fails"
If LOVE never fails....and GOD  I S   Love ....  Shall He fail?

1 Peter 1:20  says that Jesus was " foreordained before the foundation
of the world"
The Father, before He began creation ...looked ahead...and made
provision for His children.  HE planned it...from the beginning.
Did HE plan...The ETERNAL TORMENT of billions?
For one of US to plan such a thing...would be considered sadistic
and abominable.  Do we DARE assign such traits upon  GOD ?

Does Satan have a never ending shrine to his victory?
                 or
Did Christ defeat the Devil?

HELL...as it is believed to be...and ETERNAL TORMENT...would be an
everlasting monument to Satan and his under minding of Gods Will.
An ETERNAL shrine to the influence and power of Satan. Will such a
thing exist?
Let the Spirit of TRUTH and LOVE guide you through the maze of
CONFUSION that is MANs TRADITION.

" Beware lest any man spoil you through PHILOSOPHY and VAIN DECEIT
After the TRADITION of MEN, after the rudiments ( elementary teachings)
of the World, and not after Christ"  Col 2:8

Perfect peace....to each of you

Knubian
Junior Member

since 2006-03-25

Posts 35
Louisiana, United States

50 posted 2006-04-05 09:12 AM

Couldn't hell just be simply distance from God's Grace? And the rest, we read too much into the why's and woe's of it!

Quote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He spoke with heavenly beings who resided on Mars, Venus and other planets, (which, I seem to recall, he visited). One could say that Hell would be being stuck in a room with Emanuel Swedenborg.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

Regards,
Knubian

JesusChristPose
Senior Member

since 2005-06-21

Posts 777
Pittsburgh, Pa

51 posted 2006-04-05 09:55 PM

Uriah,

That is what I was taught when I worshipped with a certain small flock of Christians.

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Arnold M
Member

since 2004-09-05

Posts 195

52 posted 2006-08-26 09:24 PM

Wow!  XOxUriahxOX, that is one long sermon.
And I applaud and agree, with perhaps some further comments.
Nowhere in the Scriptures (literal, more accurate translations) does it say "The wages of sin is conscious eternal torment",  but we do read in Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death.."

It is indeed unfortunate that in the 2nd or 3rd centuries A.D. that the false idea of man having a separate eternal soul came into being.  A "soul", mind you, that would have to have all the senses in order to be enjoying the bliss of heaven, or be suffering the woes of torment.

While, IMO, there is no "eternal hell", yet all mankind will be judged for their deeds.

For the church/body of Christ this will occur in the heavenlies before the bema of Christ.  There will be no loss of salvation, but loss of rewards.

For the believing Israelites, it will occur after Christ's return to the earth to establish the Kingdom.

For all others it will occur at the great white throne of Christ, after they are resurrected (see Rev.20:11-15).

Bick

kif kif
Member

since 2006-06-01

Posts 439
BCN

53 posted 2006-08-26 10:12 PM

A few words from Crowley on spiritism; "No spiritist, once he is wholly emmeshed in sentimentality and freudian fear-fantasms, is capable of concentrated thought, of persistent will, or of moral character. Devoid of every spark of divine light which is his birth-right, a pray before death to the ghastly tenents of the grave, the wretch, like the mesmerized and living corpse of Poe's Monsieur Valdemar is 'a nearly liquid mass of loathesome, of detestable putrescence.'

Unless your aura is strong enough to inhibit any manifestation of the loathly larvae that have taken up their habitation in them, shun them as you need not mere lepers! (Magick In Theory And Practice-Of Black Magick, p301)

Essorant
Member Elite

since 2002-08-10

Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada

54 posted 2006-08-26 10:23 PM

I would rather listen to nails down a chalkboard than read that manner of speech.

kif kif
Member

since 2006-06-01

Posts 439
BCN

55 posted 2006-08-27 06:49 AM

I feel the same when I hear "the great white throne of Christ." Actually, I think Crowley is closer to Christianity than many would like to admit. If you read Crowley's work, you'll find he says "the single Supreme Ritual is the attainment of the knowledge and conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel. It is the raising of the complete man in a vertical straight line. Any deviation from this line tends to become black magic." Judging by my conversations with Christians, is this not the same as saying "one way (our way) to heaven"?

One cannot form an opinion about something one knows nothing about. Crowley delighted in the opinions others had of him, because he was a self-important egotist, but that doesn't negate the fact that his work was highly gnostic.

Don't get me wrong, I think Crowley was 'awa' wi' the faeries' as they say up North, but by the same token, I think Priests who think they have a special access to God's word are pretty barmy, too.

[This message has been edited by kif kif (08-27-2006 09:02 AM).]

Stephanos

Member Elite

since 2000-07-31

Posts 3618
Statesboro, GA, USA

56 posted 2006-11-09 11:54 PM

I know this thread seems to have wound down, but here's an artical called "Seeing Hell Through the Reason and Imagination of C.S. Lewis".  It's quite an interesting read.

It has some great insights for those who are inclined to retain the orthodox teachings about the reality of Hell, and yet who are thoughtful and sensitive to the philosophic and theonomic problems it naturally brings to mind.  I think there's a great balance in Lewis' views between orthodoxy and a critical and honest approach to truth.

http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&p   rogram=CS%20Lewis%20and%20Public%20Life&id=507

Stephen.

JesusChristPose
Senior Member

since 2005-06-21

Posts 777
Pittsburgh, Pa

57 posted 2006-11-17 12:06 PM

"For the church/body of Christ this will occur in the heavenlies before the bema of Christ. There will be no loss of salvation, but loss of rewards.

For the believing Israelites, it will occur after Christ's return to the earth to establish the Kingdom.

For all others it will occur at the great white throne of Christ, after they are resurrected (see Rev.20:11-15).

~ So, you believe in 3 distinct resurrections of the dead?

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

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