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Jesus......REJECTED!
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Jesus......REJECTED! |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA 
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Associated Press Tue Nov 14, 1:48 PM ET LOS ANGELES - A talking Jesus doll has been turned down by the Marine Reserves' Toys for Tots program. A suburban Los Angeles company offered to donate 4,000 of the foot-tall dolls, which quote Bible verses, for distribution to needy children this holiday season. The battery-powered Jesus is one of several dolls manufactured by one2believe, a division of the Valencia-based Beverly Hills Teddy Bear Co., based on Biblical figures. But the charity balked because of the dolls' religious nature. Toys are donated to kids based on financial need and "we don't know anything about their background, their religious affiliations," said Bill Grein, vice president of Marine Toys for Tots Foundation, in Quantico, Va. As a government entity, Marines "don't profess one religion over another," Grein said Tuesday. "We can't take a chance on sending a talking Jesus doll to a Jewish family or a Muslim family." Michael La Roe, director of business development for both companies, said the charity's decision left him "surprised and disappointed." Yes, I can see where that would be quite a chance to take. Who knows what mental damage could be inadvertently done by such irresponsible actions. Thank God it was prevented....or should I say thank Gosh? Has political correctness gone overboard or is it prudent to exercise such selectivity and caution? |
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| © Copyright 2006 Michael Mack - All Rights Reserved | |||
Mistletoe Angel 
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
I think that sounds like an utterly harmless, wonderful toy and collector's item fitting for this holiday season. I think this is political correctness with severe triglyceride levels. I'm sure they could come to some sort of compromise. Perhaps they could design foot-tall dolls for Jewish and Muslim families as well, as indeed the holidays are a universal time of cheer regardless of faith. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" Mother Teresa |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
I think I heard something on the news late Tuesday night saying that they were going to go ahead and accept the Bible Dolls. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
So, exactly what would a Muslim kid do with a Jesus doll? What would a Christian kid do with a Mecca playset? I don't exactly think it's offensive, and sure, beggars can't be choosers... but if they aren't screening for religion, they risk inappropriate toiys going to the wrong kids. Kind of like, when you donate toys, often you specify an age range and boy/girl? What would a ten year old boy do with a barbie? In all likelihood, find a way to blow it up.  And, be honest... would you really be happy if someone gave your kid a toy that taught religious tenets other than the ones you teach? |
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Susan Caldwell Member Rara Avis
since 2002-12-27
Posts 8348Florida |
I think anything to do with religion should be up to the parent to give/not give. The donations should be of a nature that a child could unwrap it and get to keep it. Would a Jewish parent allow the child to keep a Jesus doll?? Would you want your grandchild to get a speaking democrat doll? "too bad ignorance isn't painful" |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Thank you hush! for your thoughts were almost identical to mine on this. Yes, Michael, I know that Christmas began as a day to honor Jesus. But can you seriously consider this yakking doll to be honring anything but commercialism? Susan, LOL about the democrat doll.  |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
I agree with hush (as usual). I know I wouldn't be happy with someone pushing my child in a direction without my blessing. It's for the parents to decide what their children are subjected to, good intentions aside. Just because [you] might not be able to see any reason why someone would be offended doesn't mean someone else won't be. Is it going too far? Maybe, but I bet the same guy quoted as being disappointed the charity refused the profferred donation would be deeply offended were a different charity to drop his kids a copy of Darwin's Origin under their Christmas tree, eh? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Interesting answers. One could argue a case for almost anything and make it plausible. That's why we don't have Speedy Gonzales or Mr. Magoo around anymore and school Christmas carols are a thing of the past in many schools. What is it about non-exposure that is so preferable? Is ignorance of others beliefs so much more productive than knowledge of it? If my child were to receive a Muslim doll as a gift, I would explain that it is the symbol of another religion and the sayings are what that religion believes in. Is there harm in that? If my child said "Why would they send it to me?" I would explain that it is an organization that sends out thousands of gifts and they cannot know completely the beliefs of those who will receive them. What's the big problem there? Are your young children already so immersed in religious beliefs that they would find it offensive or is it YOU, the parents, who would be the ones with the problem? For those of you who would claim "I will decide what my child gets. It's my right as a parent." then fine. The Toys for Tots program is not for you, anyway. Oh, and,by the way, no child of mine would want a Democratic doll. What good is a doll with no head????  |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Mike, I would no more want someone to expose my son to the Facts of Life before I believe he's ready than I would want them to expose him to the (arguably) more potentially damaging concepts of Christianity. What something like this does is take away choice - can I explain to my son that pornography is a fact of life and that there are thousands of websites that have it and they just aren't meant for him? Or can I try to protect him from that until he's of an age that he's mentally and emotionally prepared to not only hear answers about it, but to more importantly ask the right questions? You're a fairly educated individual, Mike, I credit you with that. It's usually easy, for us adults, to see that people have their own beliefs that do not necessarily coincide with ours. We have the ability and (theoretically, lol) the maturity to recognize that and form some acceptance. That said, though, I think I'll wait and see what your response is next time Noah is bashing Republicans while ignoring other parties, focusing on his core beliefs (like this charity), rather than parcelling out Budda dolls along with Jesus. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
I'm not arguing for non-exposure... my point is mainly that a) like some other people here, it should be up to the parents which religious toys/books/etc. their kids have, and b) the kid is probably going to be like "what the heck is this?" I mean, I think it's very generous for that company to donate these toys- like I said, I'm not particularly offended by it... but what a shame if kids who will throw it in a corner get one instead of kids who might enjoy it. But I guess that can be said about any toy. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Instead of arguing about this one, I had an idea! It's a writing challenge-- when I was a kid, my dolls were quite real to me. They were indeed "my babies." So suppose for a minute, that just as an adult can take a deity and turn that deity into a toy, that the faith of a child could turn that same toy into an actual DEITY, sort of like Indian in the Cupboard? Poetry or Prose... anybody up for it? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Brilliant, I love it. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Congrats, Chris, for one of the most incredible comparisons I've seen in the Alley....and I've seen some doozies! Ok, let's compare. No, of course, I know you are not putting religion in the same category as pornography but let me ask you this. Do children have exposure to religion by age 6? I would think so. Do they have exposure to pornography? Would you take your son to the church of your choice at age 6? Would you take him to a porno house? Something tells me no. Religion is something a child can certainly be exposed to early. Pornography is not. You are talking apples and horseshoes. Can you see the folly of that comparison? There are laws against public pornography. One cannot drive down the street and see it. Should we do the same for religion then? Should Muslims or Jews not have to be subjected to seeing Christian churches alongside the road, those big crosses on the steeples? What if their children ask what they are? Should we not allow Christmas decorations on homes? No mention of any specific religious holiday on radio, tv, or newspapers? shall we get that IN GOD WE TRUST off the money? How far should we go to protect the children from exposure to other beliefs? Children are exposed to religion at early ages. What's so bad about them knowing there are different ones? Is that knowledge so dehabilitating to their growth? I think not. I would be willing to guess that most of the kids who would receive the Jesus dolls would regard them as toys, more than religious teaching tools. It's the parents with the hang-ups. ....and,no, I'm not fairly educated. Unfairly would be more like it  |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
no, I'd rather argue. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Why can't you compare the two, Mike? I would definitely agree there's a difference between the immediate severity of the two and most assuredly agree that a child can be exposed to religion earlier than pornography (or the Facts of Life)... does that mean they should? And I can guess that your upbringing and own religion might play a part in you not understanding how I can liken the two. Religion can be a very pervasive, destructive force. I suppose that if one believes in God, they would disagree with this - 'there's nothing wrong with teaching a child religion because it's really the will of God.' It's an understandable view, but one that precludes the beliefs of those opposite. I'm one of those that believes allowing a young child, in their most formative and gullible years, to go to church and be saturated by "praise the Lord or burn in Hell" rhetoric is tantamount to brainwashing. That child has developed no substantial means of rational objectiveness to that religion and therefore cannot realistically be expected to avoid being forced into acceptance. That's a travesty, in my opinion. Let's say I took my son, at a young age and taught him that people with dark skin color are actually inferior to us, should be avoided where possible and ignored when you can't get away from them. I would push this in his face every week, telling him that even though Billy might be a nice boy, he really isn't worthy of my son's friendship. Say I continued that for several of his formative years, what do you think he'd believe as he grew older? I know this has spun off a little from just dropping off some toys, but I'm really pointing at the larger position of introducing religion to young children (in schools, church, charities, etc... strange how it's always touted as "just in this small, tiny area are we having some influence," while there are so many arenas where religion pokes its pointy head up and says, "me, me, me! you MUST see me, MUST BELIEVE me!") Freedom of religion, to me, is also the freedom to have no religion. Now, I suppose I could just tell my son, after receiving a Jesus doll and asking about it that it’s something he’s not old enough to understand (I would never tell my child that, by the way). I could also try to explain it to him, maybe read him some literature, inflame his curiosity. Dunno. Probably everything would be fine. I’d just as soon wait though. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Therein, I believe, lies the real problem. The doll is inevitably both, and the convergence of the two is little more than propaganda. The question shouldn't be whether you believe in the propaganda or not, but rather whether it stems from an appropriate source. quote: Knowing there are different religions and knowing precisely what those differences are, Mike, are two very different things. Yes, there are some religions out there that I think can be VERY debilitating to a young child. If I want to be able to protect my child from your religion, I have to be willing to let you protect your child from mine. For what it's worth, and setting aside religion entirely, I doubt you could make a talking doll out of ANY living or historical figure without offending a whole lot of people in the process. quote: I wonder, Christopher, if you realize that you also just described patriotism? And ethics? And, yes, even familial love? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
I was just wondering about the doll itself. Does it play Depeche Mode? (shrug) Even growing up a Christian child I think I would have been a little creeped out...and my father would have had to inspect everything it said to make sure it passed his own Christian beliefs. There go all my plans though, for that talking Bill O'reilly doll.. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Okay C. I can argue too. I'm just wondering if this toy is supposed to treated like a toy...? or is the child expected to worship the toy? Does it get a place of honor on the toyshelf? (I'm picturing companion marketing strategies of loaves of bread, "action figure" apostles, and then what, a CROSS?) If you think I shouldn't have gone there, then think about it. If I shouldn't--why wouldn't a toy company?) What about the normal prediliction some kids have to write on dolls, or worse? ("To infinity and beyond!--anybody remember that kid, Sid?)  I just think it is a bad idea. Not necessarily from any theological viewpoint, but I think it's just bad product. (I mean, I accidentally named a mouse Jesus once, and had trouble killing it after that--and I am pagan!) And yanno? Those talking dolls? They never last very long--even with the old fashioned pullstring, messages would garble after some use--do you want to trust religious instruction/emphasis to batteries and a microchip? What happens when the toy doesn't perform miracles? What happens if it DOES?  (I'm trying to tempt C with writing possibilities now...) It's just a bad idea, overall. Btw, we have a lot of toy deities here in New Orleans, with entire parades dedicated to 'em. We get away with that by calling it mythology. I doubt seriously we'll ever have a Krewe of Jesus though. I think it would incite a riot, and not just in our streets here, but around the world. (My husband rides in two parades--the Krewe of Morpheus--naturally--  --and the Krewe of Allah.)If you want to toss Jesus Christ in the mythology bin, it is your religion, then I can say, um, "okay." But why you would want to profane what you deem sacred is a puzzle to me. Seriously, toys tend to lose their allure. Does anyone really want to see a forgotten Jesus doll on a playground with one arm yanked off and sandal-less? It's TOYS for Tots. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
ooops...ya'll are way ahead of me here.  |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Well, Chris, I don't disagree that religion can be a very destructive force, depending on one's beliefs. Based on my own past, though, i have a hard time with your scenario. I started going to church at around five years old. I received no "praise the Lord or burn in Hell" speeches, nor did I hear any "You must believe ME, ME, ME" chants. No one told me that other religions were inferior. I did learn that it was right to be nice to others, to have respect for others and to be honest in word and deed. So I grew up and ....guess what? I'm not even religious and I don't consider myself a Christian. ( I even forgot the be nice to others part! ) After I grew up, I made my own determinations on religion. Kids do that. Millions of kids in the United States go to churches and do exactly the same thing when they grow up. They are not browbeaten as youngsters and brainwashed into religious fanaticism. You want to find that brainwashing? Watch the Glenn Beck show on CNN Headline News tonight at 7. One clip shows a 4 or 5 year old muslim girl talk about hating Jews because they kill and eat people. Let's say I took my son, at a young age and taught him that people with dark skin color are actually inferior to us, should be avoided where possible and ignored when you can't get away from them. I would push this in his face every week, telling him that even though Billy might be a nice boy, he really isn't worthy of my son's friendship. Say I continued that for several of his formative years, what do you think he'd believe as he grew older? I think you are getting a little sensationalistic there. I know of no Christian church that uses those tactics and I would be very surprised if you did, either. Children are not prejudicial. They have to grow up and get smart to reach that state of mind. As I wrote in a poem many years ago about a white mother who confronted her son about playing with a black boy at the playground..... "Was that boy black?" I asked my son Who was only three. "Gee, I don't know", the boy replied. "Next time I'll look and see." I would not worry about the brainwashing among the civilized religions. That gets left to the radical ones. Yes, right to religion also includes rights to no religion and, if that is your preference, you are more than entitled to live it and shield your son from it until you feel he is old enough to make up his own mind. How he will make up his own mind without having been exposed to it might be a trick but, at some point in his life, religious curiosity will certainly pop up. A little education before that happens might be a good thing - or not. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Hey, Serenity gal, if they can make bobble-head dashboard dolls of Elvis, NOTHING is sacred! |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
~ I agree with Hush's statement on this one. "Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself." |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Therein, I believe, lies the real problem. The doll is inevitably both, and the convergence of the two is little more than propaganda. The question shouldn't be whether you believe in the propaganda or not, but rather whether it stems from an appropriate source. I don't disagree with that, Ron, but it makes me think of the toys I received as a child for Christmas....the same ones most kids my age received. army soldiers (spent years positioning them in dirt battlefields) G.I. Joe pistols and holsters (vital for playing cowboys and indians) BB gun plastic swords (can't be a ninja or musketeer without one) The same argument can be made for any one of these and rightfully so. I'm sure there are many parents today who will not allow these toys for their children and I don't call that wrong. At the same time, millions of kids DID receive these toys and were not turned into psychopaths by them. I would guess that there is not a toy around that does not have some kind of agenda, except for the Slinky - and I've always been a little suspicious of THEM! |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I'm sure there are other charities/programs out there that would be glad to give them away. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
quote:Went to one, Mike - I was there a week after I was born (from the retelling, needless to say I can't remember, lol) We stopped when I was about 13. Don't for a moment believe it wasn't a fully embedded mindset by that time, I was bible-basher all the way. It wasn't until later, with a lot of help from a disillusioned parent and a fair share of stubborn defiance that I realized none of the things I spouted and believed were based on anything more substantial than recitation by rote; I believed because I had been told to, not because it fit a reasoned conclusion by me. quote:Patriotism, yes. Ethics & familial love though... we're talking here about something that a parent can gain a measure of control over. Those mostly stem from inside the family and directly involves the choice I'm arguing for. I won't disagree with you for a moment that there are things outside the home that influences our children. I am here arguing, just as I suggested Mike would be, from my own personal beliefs. I believe that society as a whole will come to a relative agreement on ideas such as ethics and Patriotism. There's no doubt about the schism between those who want their children being taught religion and those who don't. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Ah, I misunderstood your concern, Christopher. It's not that brainwashing someone with "no substantial means of rational objectiveness" is bad, then, so much as it's just a job that should be left to the parent? |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
I can't really help but feel that this 'anti-Christian' incident had little to do with religion, and more to do with quarterly tax estimates. Toys-for-Tots is a large, well-respected, charitible nonprofit organization, so the IRS knows they are legit. Most action figures are not inexpensive or small. So, take 10,000 of them, donate them, and bingo!: charitible donation tax shelter. If the dolls are accepted, good deal: tax deductions from nonprofit donations. If the dolls are refused, cause a media stink about 'Christian bashing' even while exploiting Christianity, write the action figures off as a loss, and enjoy a nice tax break before the end of the quarter while still getting media coverage, free advertising to untapped markets and further Christian exploitation. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I'm just wondering if Christopher would rather write than argue now? |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
quote:Come now, Ron, please. I would most sincerely be interested in a method of rearing children that would ensure they weren't brainwashed, mistreated, ignored, abused, etc., etc., etc. Of course, we can write something into the constitution, homogenize our culture and live in harmonious sameness until society crumbles around us for lack of stimulus or growth. Or, we can take the opportunities we have and do the best we can within our individual belief structures. Does that mean I support parents who take their children to church at young ages? Absolutely - that's something that fits within their beliefs. Does that mean I think they're right to do so? No, but what I believe should have no bearing on the rearing of another's child, should it? In my house, we focus on questions and understanding, on working on problems and thinking things through. I mention some of these things to people I work with and they kind of laugh, pointing out that my son is only two and really doesn't have the cognitive capability to reason things through. They haven't seen him in action though, so it's understandable. He amazes me constantly with his ability to approach a problem and work on it, usually achieving some plan by which to resolve it - that it's not always tenable doesn't negate in any manner that he thought it through. I suppose there could be some argument to say that teaching a child to think for themselves is a form of brainwashing, but I don’t believe it would hold much water. I support actions such as asking a child “why?” “Why is that wrong?” “Why do we not hit the dog?” (we ask this a lot, he still disagrees with the reasoning as to why this is a bad thing, lol) “Why do we say thank you?” “Why…?” I have sworn to myself to never drop a “because I said so,” or “that’s just the way it is,” or – the worst, “do as I say, not as I do.” I believe every question by a child should be answered (and boy is that tiring sometimes). But I would prefer some questions come at later times. I really don’t want to try to explain religion to my son when he’s three or four. Nor would I want to explain sex to him that early either. Can I get everything right? Probably not even most. But why should my job be made more difficult by someone else’s interference? Why should I accept someone else’s toys or rhetoric that will counter my wishes just to make them happy that they’re forwarding their own agenda? Where does freedom of speech and religion translate to freedom to interfere? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Yep, that's how I see it too. Almost. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Is no one curious as to what they look like? http://money.cnn.com/2005/04/12/news/midcaps/jesus_dolls/ Hmmm....interesting. I'd always wondered m'self. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
quote:How long do you think it will be until some little boy puts a GI Joe gun in his hands and has him acting like the Terminator? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Oh Boy. I just showed them to my 78-year old mother in law who proclaimed them as "sacrilege." I didn't have to point out that she owns several statues--she brought the point up herself; and she conceded that the statues confused her a bit too, but at least they aren't toys. And she wanted her opinion in here, so here it is, Bettie. (I would give Bettie her own membership, but she's afraid of computers--not so much the actual machine, but the temptation of online gambling is "evil".) There. I think she's done. OH. Maybe not. Sheesh. What hath I wrought?  (She's gonna go on about this one for days I'll bet.) *laughing* She just asked me to not show this to my husband--'cause her son is dumb enough to buy one for her. And it's "sacrilege" she tells ya! *shaking my head* I don't think I'm too bright either. |
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Susan Caldwell Member Rara Avis
since 2002-12-27
Posts 8348Florida |
I have a lot to say about this but I don't feel like typing... meh... Thank you Karen for typing for your Mother- in-law. She makes me smile and miss..well, everything. This from Michael: "At the same time, millions of kids DID receive these toys and were not turned into psychopaths by them." it's a different world....*sigh* it's just a way different world. oh and this...I did get exposure to many different religions as a kid...and I was very, very scared of the following: -hell -armageddon -a vengeful "god" -bad people (that didn't believe) -the fact that the 144,000 had already been chosen -snakes and now I have typed most of it anyway.. "too bad ignorance isn't painful" |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Have to change the argument now. Toys For Tots has now agreed to accept the dolls after all. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Anyone have some extra copies of Origin of the Species we can send along with the dolls?  |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Chris, I think YOUR son is the only two-year-old who could understand Darwin.  Well, now that the groundwork has been laid, let's see how many lawsuits are filed by enraged parents claiming irreparable mental damage to their youngsters  |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
LOL, Michael, my daughter at the tender age of two was asking Q's that would have made Darwin smile. I actually like the idea of Darwinian dolls! |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Kacy? They could be TRANSFORMERS!!! |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Exactly, with the publicity, we've probably got a few lawyers ready to pounce on it. And if we're really lucky we'll have a few lawsuits just in time for the O'Reilly annual Christmas jihad. Oh, and if the parents win, we can all complain about the judiciary again. It's a win/win situation. You can say one thing about these guys, they ain't stupid. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/prehistoric_life/games/evolution/ |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
"I coulda been a contendah..."  |
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inot2B Member Elite
since 2000-09-18
Posts 2205Arkansas |
Can you see a group of people donating a bunch of dolls resembling the U.S. Presidents. I'm talking about talking dolls. Would they be allowed to spew their propaganda. I see that happening and yet dolls who resemble Jesus are found questionable because he tells bible stories. Please if it offends The Toy for Tots I hope they give them to a Christian Church to be shared with families who are thankful somebody was able to give their child a gift. May God forgive those who don't know it was meant as a gift from the heart not to brainwash your children but to let them know they are loved. No secret message just someone cared enough to share a gift with them. |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Personally? I think the real Jesus would be offended by such dolls. MHO |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Karen... OMG, the Jesus/Darwin transformer is the answer to all these problems!!! LMAO!! Okay, just a few points here: 1. I would not take my child to church at age 6. I was terrified when I was taken to church at that age, and Mike? You cannot be serious when you write off the "burn in hell" and "other religions are inferior" messages. Every Church I have EVER been to has endorsed one or the other message... Actually, I was just at church the other day, ALL BY MYSELF (through an unlikely series of events) and... man... it still scares me. 2. I think we should get rid of "in god we trust" on money. It makes a liar out of me every time I buy something. 3. "One clip shows a 4 or 5 year old muslim girl talk about hating Jews because they kill and eat people." Anyone else seen "Borat?"4. "Children are not prejudicial. They have to grow up and get smart to reach that state of mind." Dude, you cannot be serious. How grown up do you mean? Read any Countee Cullen lately? "Now I was eight and very small, And he was no whit bigger, And so I smiled, but he poked out His tongue, and called me, '.....'" That notwithstanding (you might argue it was in a different time, etc., etc.), ever heard kids pick on other kids for being fat, too stupid, too smart, too black/white/asian/whatever? I mean... are you out of touch with the fact that kids are really mean to each other for no good reason? 5. "I would not worry about the brainwashing among the civilized religions. That gets left to the radical ones." Can you provide a list of "civilized" vs. "radical" religions? Which ones do we need to worry about? I'm curious. 6. I think the idea of political talking dolls is far scarier and more offensive than religious ones... heh... transformers.... |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Hush...believe me, I CAN be serious. I went to church at a very early age beginning with the Catholic church, where I was baptized and then to an Evangelical church when we moved to the country and, in neither religion, did I ever hear about non-religious people burning in Hell or bashing of other religions. By the way, I was not going to church by choice. It was my parents' decision so I did not and have not turned into a religious zealot. I think I just mentioned I do not even consider myself religious so I am not defending churches because I am a believer. If I say I didn't see it, it's because I didn't see it. I still have friendly arguments with my girlfriend, who is a devout Christian, that my complaint with Christians is that they claim one cannot enter Heaven without being one of them....sort of like a country club where your dues are fully believing in their fellow. Still, I have never heard a Christian say that non-believers of Christianity will burn in hell....they simply can't pass the pearly gates. If being in church by yourself causes you to be scared for days, I'd say you have some issues. Did you expect the statues to come to life and eat you? Anyone else seen "Borat?" You are going to make comparisons of actuall footage of children stating such things with a popular movie that's playing????? It's MY turn for the "You can't be serious" line. So tell me where that little 8 year old white boy learned that word, hush. Yes, schoolchildren can certainly be mean but they learned it growing up. They weren't born with that mentality. The difference between civilized and radical religions? I really have to show the distinction? Well, let's say those that behead others in the name of their God, those that claim anyone who does not hold their beliefs must be murdered, those who scream out "God is great!" while massacreing innocents could be considered radical for a start, unless you want to brand those actions as those of civilized people. True, one can claim that radical view does not portray a true picture of their religion, but when millions applaud it while those claiming it is a false portrayal of their religion remain silent, then the difference is lost. Christianity, during the crusades, wasa radical religion. Which ones do you need to worry about? How about the ones with the knife or sword in their hands aimed at your head? Of course, if the simple act of being in church alone scares you for days, then i would say "All of them" would be the right answer for you. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
First of all, serenity loves hush.  It's great to see you here again. You are so sane and sensible that you frighten ME.  (ssssssssh, Mike, don't pout--I love YOU too.) Susan? I have a friend who loves to talk Rapture and Tribulation and such, but I had to enact a rule that he can't do so in my home. He really WAS frightening my kids. So *hugs*. I love YOU too. That said, I was wondering if anyone found out if there were particular guidelines or instructions for handing out these dolls? First of all, I know many Christians who are offended by this idea. Some consider it idolatry, irreverent, and yep, sacriligious. Second, if you looked at the pictures, these dolls are notably caucasion in appearance. I dunno if anybody checked out demographics of welfare states (where I would presume and hope that Toys for Tots would be most active) but I know that around here? The majority of the families likely to utilize Toys for Tots would be minorities, and probably um, NOT caucasion. Would that be on the checklist for consideration? Frankly I am quite surprised that they haven't offered a choice of dolls with darker skin--if only to squeeze out the extra dollars. What we have here is a company who introduced a product in 2005, and they are managing to garner some renewed interest and free advertising by donating stock that they already knew was controversial. and *offtopic* for inot2be: Lovie? My husband has a Bill Clinton doll. Old Bill doesn't talk, he just hangs there on the noose we fashioned for him. *shrug* (We figgered he was intent on hanging himself so we just helped him along.) My husband is a collector, and he tried to get Monica Lewinsky to sign this thing at one of her book signings. You should have seen the security strong arm him out of line! They took away the cigars he had intended to get autographed too. My husband was so diappointed--and confused too. He had no idea why Ms. Lewinsky would be offended. So you see, Bettie wasn't just bad mouthing her son. We have to watch him like a little bitty kid. I did tell him that if he bought one of those Jesus dolls, chances were he would not be able to get it autographed. <--wishes she was kidding.I hope this makes sense. sigh. I'm running on de-caf today. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
quote:Isn't the basic idea that if you're not "saved," don't ask Christ for forgiveness for your sins, you go to Hell? That's what I've always understood. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Hey, don't ask me, Chris! I'm not that up on those things. I heard that there are levels of Hell, seven I think, and one's sins or crimes determine what level his eternal lost soul will reside in. My comment was that I have never heard a preacher preaching that not believing in Jesus will haveone burning in Hell. It may be a given to Christianity that non-heaven residents will have Hell as their only alternative but the comments here paint a picture of a preacher standing on the pulpit threatening non-believers with raging fires devouring them daily for eternity. If that's the case I fell asleep during that part of the sermon.... |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Agreeing with Chris here... I have personally been told (several times) that since I am not baptized, I will go to hell, and the only way to prevent going to hell was to get baptized. Now, I was a pragmatic child (and I think I grew up to be a pretty pragmatic adult). To me, all this business with pearly gates and Jesus' resurrection and God was hard to swallow. To be told, on top of that, that I can avoid the flames of hell by getting some water dripped on my head? Very puzzling. But you're right, I do have issues. I am serious though... if you have seen "Borat," you'll realize why I bring it up in conjunction with ingrained anti-semitism. And if you've actually thought about "Borat," you might actually see what an incendiary social commentary it is. It is very relevant to this conversation. It's like a footnote to my point, actually. Mike: "Children are not prejudicial. They have to grow up and get smart to reach that state of mind." "So tell me where that little 8 year old white boy learned that word, hush. Yes, schoolchildren can certainly be mean but they learned it growing up. They weren't born with that mentality." So and 8-year-old has "grown up and gotten smart?" I'd argue then as soon as a child utters its first 'mama' it has already grown up and gotten smart, listening to its parents' cultural viewpoints and criticisms, which will forever be ingrained in its worldview. I was not raised in any sort of overtly racist way, but I was raised in a white neighborhood and I went to a school with mostly white kids (you know, we had a "token" black kid), and so when I was exposed to more cultural and ethnic diversity in my teen years, while I wasn't scathing or necessarily prejudiced, I was acutely aware of certain differences and apprehensive at times to bridge that gap. And I'd be lying, even though I work in an inner city hospital and am exposed (via patients and medical staff) to a huge variety of ethnicity and culture, if I said I didn't still take note and mentally catalogue race and culture ("the male nurse, the Indian doctor, the black patient"). Part of my personal milleu when I was growing up... a sort of homogenization that makes me notice the different (from myself). Karen... believe it or not, I've been around, a-readin... and I think of you more than you might imagine. (Psst... Mike... it's okay, you can call me Amy ) |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I'm glad they came to their senses. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Thank you, Amy My growing up and gotten smart comment was, of course, a little sarcasm on my part. I wish we could ALL maintain the innocence of youth. Also, there is nothing wrong with you mentally categorizing people by their ethnicicity, religion or even physical attributes. For many countries in the world, that is the accepted norm. In South America it is customary and even a term of endearment to nickname someone "flacko" (skinny), "gordo" (fat) or "negro". Why there and not here?.....because we lead the world in being offended. Our feelings get hurt much more easily, it seems....either that or we are more on the lookout for things to complain about. No Venezuelan, for example, would ever get offended by such descriptiveness. When I was living there, there was a black soccer player who was nationally famous. When he was on a breakout running down the field, all you could hear were screams of "Vaya, mi negro!" (Go, my negro). Imagine screaming that out here!!LOL! No, we worry too much about being "correct" and we have so many people willing to raise hell for pathetic reasons.In this case, for example, let's suppose Toys for Tots sent a Jesus doll to your house. You are Muslim or Jewish. What are your choices? (1) you can give it to your child and explain what it stands for. (2) You can not give it to your child but recognize that Toys For Tots does not really know the religious preferences of its receiptients so you don't get offended or bothered by it. Perhaps you give it to a Christian friend of yours so he can give it to HIS child. (3) You can get offended. You can scream about how can someone make such a stupid mistake. You can yell about how offensive this action was. You can call your friends, the radio stations, the newspapers, your lawyer and let everyone know how displeased you are. You can rave about attempts to brainwash your child. You can call Toys for Tots idiots. Unfortunately, in this country, we have too many who would go the number three route...and we see evidence of it every day in many facets of life. We lead the world in many things. Tolerance is not one of them.... |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Mike, I agree. Our only difference here perhaps is that you think they gave the doll for 'innocent' reasons. I think they gave the doll knowing full well that this would happen. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I'd go for number three but replace the ranting with simply throwing the doll in the bin. I've no respect for any religious group that uses blatant propaganda in favour of their beliefs and tries to palm it off to kids as a charitable act. This group didn't make Jesus figures for fun but for profit and with the intention of spreading their belief by introducing kids to Jesus, offering them as a charitable gift just makes their intention that much more insidious. I see no difference between receiving a Christian icon disguised as a doll as an icon from the moonies or the KKK - they're all promoting a belief I don't want my kids exposed to until they can understand the agenda behind the gifts. By the time that happens though I suspect they'd be way past playing with dolls. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Perfect answer, grinch. If you object to it, throw it away and go on with your life. Why can't others see the simplicity of that? Brad, I can't say I disagree with ulterior motives. If that's the case, they are pretty smart because they got results. Interesting to gamble and win on the presumed actions and reactions of American mentality. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I always thought that the Toys for Tots program, particulary during the Christmas Season appeal, was primarily about providing Christmas presents for less fortunate children of households that celebrate Christmas. But I can see that maybe they also provide Hanukkah gifts as well. But what gift giving holiday do the Muslims celebrate at this time of year? And what would be so difficult for the charity to simply ask which holiday the potential recipients celebrate? Or for the potential recipients to advise the charity which holiday they celebrate? And why would anyone be anything other than gracious when they are the recipient of another's charity? |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Denise, quote: Because the underlying motives may be anything but charitable, if you don't believe me ask the Trojans. In this case one2believe are fairly clear as to their intentions: "Just as in the days of the Judges in Israel we believe that teaching Bible stories to a child is the precursor to a relationship with God." "A child's spiritual development is our mission and the focus of our passion." "We at one2believe feel compelled by God to research and produce as many different ministry tools for parents and educators as we can." "We are dedicating ourselves to the spiritual development of children and their lasting faith in our Lord and savior Jesus Christ." "By creating an atmosphere where children become fascinated with Bible stories, their inquisitive nature about spiritual things can be sparked and nurtured." "It is in a child's early developmental years that they need to be introduced to the Lord." These are all statements taken from their website http://www.one2believe.com/mission/ which is fairly blatant in it's message that these dolls are not toys but tools with which to indoctrinate children into the Christian faith. In my opinion that's just another version of the Trojan horse tactic which in turn is no different from handing out free samples of drugs to kids outside the school gates in the hope they'll get hooked. I believe that despite advice to the contrary you should always look a gift horse in the mouth just in case there's a bunch of sword wielding Greeks in its belly. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
these dolls are not toys but tools with which to indoctrinate children into the Christian faith Then I have to ask...who does the indoctrination? Do the children, upon seeing a Jesus doll, suddenly become overwhelmed to be a part of Christianity? Do they jump up and scream, "I believe!!!"? You are right, grinch. They are TOOLS for a parent to use, should they choose to. If they choose not to, then toss 'em in the dump. TV is filled with religious services and sermons every Sunday. That's also a tool. If you don't want your child exposed to it, you simply don't turn on that station. How much simpler can it be? You don't berate the station for putting it on...you just ignore it. BY what you have said here, you despise ANY organization that would attempt to influence for religion's sake, so you must despise all of those programs, too, which bring church services into your home. You must also be against any radio station that would play "We Three Kings of Orient Are", or "Oh, Holy Night" around Christmas on stations that your child may be exposed to. Your Trojan Horse comparison is a little weak. Let's make a more comparable comparison. The wooden horse gets wheeled into your city and you open it. Inside there are soldiers. The leader of the soldiers says, "Take us out, arm us, and allow us to murder, ravage and pillage your city". You can either do so or shut the hatch and keep them away from you. What do you do? A religious doll is not a soldier who is going to cut your son's throat, nor is it Chucky in "Child's Play", who has the power to overtake your son's soul and turn him into a monster. As you stated, it's only a tool for you to use as a parent, should you choose to do so. If not, then just go back to your original statement and toss it in the dump and let it go. There are enough things in the world to show disdain for or despise than choosing a religious toy company giving out religious gifts for underpriviledged children, wouldn't you say? Oh, and your comparison to drugs borders on the incredible. I read somewhere that drugs are addictive. You don't pass them out "in the hopes" someone will get hooked. You pass them out to INSURE someone gets hooked, which will turn them into junkies, which will destroy their families, earnings,health and lives and lead them to jail. If you feel exposure to a religious doll will cause the same damage, you have pole-vaulted over Ron and LR for the crown of the king of amazing comparisons |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Since Mike brought it up: Mathew 10:22 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death." Either it's not that big a deal or it's that important. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I don't mind using your Trojan horse comparison Mike as long as the person the soldiers ask is a four year old kid, the outcome is the same, something unwanted and unasked for is smuggled in using a device that's supposed to be a gift. The gullibility of the person who receives the gift doesn't reduce the nature of the original intent. quote: So if I can provide one example that religion has destroyed families, earnings, health and lives and lead people into jail the comparison is acceptable but my pole-vaulting abilities are called into question? I can live with that. Northern Ireland is scattered with examples of religion leading to all of the above. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
What would Jesus Do? There is also some evidence in the New Testament that Jesus himself was outraged by crass commercialism. Wasn't there a little incident of him turning over the tables of the moneychangers outside of the temple?  And yer right though, let's not blow this out of proportion. It's a bad product, in poor taste. Now. If we agree on that--we can move on to personal responsibility regarding crass commercialism. We can move on to the nauseating spectacle of Orenthal James Simpson. sigh. There are moments when I am embarrassed by my own culture.  |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Our Passion is to confront children with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We know that if a child has a foundational understanding of the Bible and its stories, they will be tender toward developing a relationship with Jesus. Research studies show that parents feel primarily responsible for the spiritual development of their children yet at the same time feel poorly equipped to bring their children to faith*. David Socha, head of one2believe says, “Over the years I have heard from many parents and friends that want to teach their children Bible stories, but are unsure of the stories themselves. This year as part of our mission to teach 10 million children Bible stories our ministry one2believe has decided to put the 50 greatest stories together and make it available to anyone who wanted them, free.” Besides being a great resource for parents, the stories give pastors and Sunday school teachers a way to introduce the children in their church to the Bible in an easy to understand format. “We have found that for many children the size of the Bible can be a little overwhelming, our hope is these stories will get them excited about their faith and lead them into further learning.” Socha adds. In regards to the one2believe's lofty goal of teaching 10 million children Bible stories in 2 years, Socha says “God willing, this free e-book along with the high impact, low maintenance church fundraising program that we have established around our Messengers of Faith dolls will enable us to teach a large number of children rather quickly.” Committed to using the talents God has given him, David has created one2believe with the intention of creating ministry tools and other merchandise for the faith-based community. These folks don't sound like crass commercialists to me. They sound like they have a genuine desire, a ministry, to make bible stories accessable and understandable to children. And most importantly they do so through the parents, pastors, Sunday school teachers, etc., not behind their backs or against their wishes. Nobody is sneaking a Trojan Horse into their midst. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
grinch, if you are going to move on to compare gifting Jesus dolls to the war in Northern Ireland, your pole-vaulting crown is not only secure, you have won the decathalon! It's my understanding that the parents have the say about whether the children get the gift or not. In that case, your Trojan Horse edit won't work and the only way the drug one will is if the pushers give the drugs to the parents and tell THEM to give them to their kids. See, this is a good example of why our society and legal system is so screwed up. Someone takes a small topic like this....offering religious dolls to underprivileged kids....and in no time we're making comparisons to drug dealers and religious wars. Come on, people. See it for the small thing it is. No wars are going to be started because of it. It's not going to spawn a horde of religious zealots. No one's life is going to be thrown into complete turmoil because their child was exposed to it. No device has yet been created which can measure the insignifigance of this protesting. You want to protest against whatever may try to influence your child in a religious way around Christmas time? You are going to be very busy. Christmas is actually a religious holiday here. You will be protesting against tv shows, radio selections, lit up trees in people's yards, Salvation Army Santas, decorations, Santa's workshops, school posters....the list goes on with all the things that can influence the youngsters. Isn't it easier to just toss the doll in the dump if you find it so dangerous or defensive and go on with your life? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
So it's not important. Fair enough. Yet, why not then let toys for tots make up their own mind? Why start a thread with Jesus . . . REJECTED? Who began this thread trying to be inflammatory? What if it were, gasp, teletubbies? What if it were only the purple ones with, I forget, the triangle on top? I suppose, in a sense, I'm agreeing with you, Mike. Note to self: must stop doing that, makes me feel uncomfortable. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Jeez, Brad almost agreeing with Mike. Now that's making me uncomfortable. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Good question, Brad. I started the thread in a controversial way. Why? Because I feel sure that the Marines didn't reject the offer due to concerns about children being tainted. I believe they rejected it because they felt that public opinion of a few would turn it into a major publicity screamfest. Well, it did...except the loudest screaming turned out to be by the majority and FOR the acceptance of the dolls. There is hope yet... Brad, thanks for agreeing with me but please don't make a habit of it. It makes ME nervous, too! |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
I see no reason for you to insult Ron or Grinch by comparing either of them to me! |
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latearrival Member Ascendant
since 2003-03-21
Posts 5499Florida |
The way it works in my work place, volunteers at our offices work with the Marines to distribute the toys. They are already at it, gathering and collecting toys to be put in a large storage place. They take personal leave days as it does take a lot of time. They have a telephone number and people who sign up for the toys give the gender and ages of the children to be given a toy. We had a room stocked with bicycles one year and people who called in and asked for one were given a time and day to come and pick up a bike. It has become such a big project that we no longer use our building. They had received the donation of a storage area from one of the larger Real Estate offices in town. The same with the other toys. They were not just given out to anyone. So no “Talking Doll” of any religion was going to go to just any one. It would certainly be easy enough for whoever is handling the toy collection to call and ask any church if they would like the dolls. I would presume a Fundamental type church would love to have them. Such an easy solution. |
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latearrival Member Ascendant
since 2003-03-21
Posts 5499Florida |
Just had a question come to mind? If these workers give up four or five days of their personal leave time to these charitable projects, can they then take a deduction from their income tax? I always wondered how or why they give up so much time. My supervisor is rarely around at Toys for Tots time and either is the front desk first shift gal. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
The IRS does not allow donations of 'time' as deductible charitible contributions. |
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latearrival Member Ascendant
since 2003-03-21
Posts 5499Florida |
Thank you. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I worked with Toys for Tots in 1971, when I was TAD to a Marine Reserve Base, Martyjo, and things were much different back then. We not only collected the toys, often refurbishing used ones by hand, but also distributed them as well. That all changed in 1991, when the Toys for Tots Foundation was established as a separate entity and the individual Marines were distanced from the families and children being served. I have no doubt it was more efficient. quote: In this case, Mike, I don't think it mattered which side yelled the loudest, only that there was a whole lot of yelling. According to Bill Grein, VP of the Marine Toys for Tots Foundation, "We realized it's a lot less time-consuming to find homes for the dolls than it is to answer media and complaints." Finding appropriate placement for the dolls was the lesser of two evils, but I'm not sure I can interpret that to mean either of the two evils was desirable. Essentially, the Beverly Hills Teddy Bear Co. managed to force the Marines into spending time on them one way or another, time that ostensibly could have been better invested and served more kids elsewhere. This is from the official Toys for Tots site: "Over the 58 years of the U.S. Marine Corps Reserve Toys for Tots Program, Marines have distributed more than 351 million toys for 166 million needy children. This charitable endeavor has made U.S. Marines the unchallenged leaders in looking after needy children at Christmas. Over its 15 year life span, the Marine Toys for Tots Foundation has supplemented local toy collections with more than 64.5 million toys valued at more than $344 million; plus has provided promotion and support materials valued at over $3.9 million." These are the people whose judgment couldn't be trusted when it came to distributing Jesus dolls. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
'Christmas is actually a religious holiday here. You will be protesting against tv shows, radio selections, lit up trees in people's yards, Salvation Army Santas, decorations, Santa's workshops, school posters....the list goes on with all the things that can influence the youngsters.' Mike, you know as well as I do that Santa and decorated trees have nothing to do with Jesus. Heck, my Christmas tree is up already. I'm sure you're also aware that the story of Jesus' birth and the term 'Christmas' were introduced to give a new face to the pagan celebration of Saturnalia. (How could you not- there's a debate about that here on the boards every year too.) In America, some people do find Christmas a very religious time of year... but a lot of people celebrate it secularly, as well. My Jesus doll would have been preaching to my dogs, because it would have been a dog chew-toy. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
SOME people find it a religious holiday? A fantastic understatement there, Amy. Well, when the star on top of the tree stops representing the star over Bethlehem, when Santa is not called SAINT Nicholas, when the exchange of gifts do not represent the gifts the three wise men laid before Jesus, when the songs associated with Christmas do not refer to little towns in Bethlehem, holy nights, away in mangers, kings of orient are, when the CHRIST part is removed from CHRISTmas, then I'll believe people do not regard it s a religious holiday. As for your other comment....hey, even dogs can use a little taste of religion! |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
I think I'm more offended that it's not even Thanksgiving yet and Amy already has her tree up!!! |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Christmas is Christ's birthday. Either you celebrate it or you don't. If you don't you shouldn't call your holiday "Christmas" |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
You know what I'm hearing throughout this thread? Pander to the Christian sect, regardless of how you feel about it. If you support the Christians and their propoganda, excellent. If you don't, ignore it. Of course, I have firm confidence that the reverse would not be true. What in the world forces non-believers to be tolerant of the believers, but not force the believers to be tolerant of the non-believers? It just doesn't make sense to me that someone can throw something in another's face then tell them if they don't like it to just discard it. If I am sitting at the table next to yours while you're out to a nice dinner with your lady friend and I want to curse loudly, feeling that there is nothing wrong with foul language in public? You're absolutely free to ignore it. Should you have to though? Or should I be more considerate of those who have differing belief structures. See, you're focusing on the "offensive" nature of the whole thing. Truth be told, I'm not offended in the slightest. Just disappointed that the only true difference between Christians now and those back in the days of the inquisition is the manner in which they express their disapproval of non-believers... it's just less physical than it used to be. At the end of the day, I just want the choice, preferably without the having a label pasted to my forehead saying I'm wrong for wanting it. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
the manner in which they express their disapproval of non-believers... Ok, I'm lost. Where does that come from, Chris? ..and some kind of resemblance to having to endure cursing in a restaurant??? Grinch can make comparisons like the because, after all, it is documented that HE STOLE Christmas!....but you? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Ah, the good ole days. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
a direct descendant of the Grand Inquisitor,are ya, Brad? Saying the Christians held the Spanish Inquisition is like saying the Muslims are all out there chopping off heads. There are a few Christians - and Muslims - who may disagree. Someday someone is going to figure out that it's the nut cases using religion as an excuse to commit atrocities, and not religion itself. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
I just wonder now about the Anton Levay dolls? |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Now Mike, Anyone who would choose Judas for a friend could hardly be seen as a role model plastic or otherwise . . . . |
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Dusk Treader
Moderator
Senior Member
since 1999-06-18
Posts 1187St. Paul, MN |
quote: Then maybe this day shouldn't be declared a US national holiday? The meaning of this word has changed over time. It is no longer only the day Christians celebrate the birth of Christ but it is also a traditional day for peole to gather with friends and family to exchange gifts and eat good food and talk. Pagans, atheists, Christians and even religions with other holidays like Islam and Judaism will still celebrate Christmas. There is a long history of associating this period of the year with gift exchange and festival. There's a perfectly good name for a day when you exchange gifts near the winter solstice that everyone is familiar with. It's Christmas. Good luck trying to convince those people who don't celebrate Christ's birth to begin calling it "Secular present exchanging day." Personally I think the whole thing was a stunt. Either their dolls go out to people and get used appropriately or the company get some free publicity. Win-win situation for the Doll producers. I feel sorry for the kids who get the doll. That's a pretty lame gift for most kids. "I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness..." - H.P. Lovecraft |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
"It is no longer only the day Christians celebrate the birth of Christ" Of course people celebrate the time of the year for different reasons. But the word Christmas itself is a specifically Christ-oriented word. You can't change that. It is literally engrained into the word: "Christ Mass". Why do people that don't have anything to do with Christ, use the word that indicates Christ: Christmas? It is like calling a day "Dusk Treader Mass" and deciding not to celebrate anything to do with Dusk Treader. It doesn't make any sense to me. |
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A Romantic Heart Member Ascendant
since 1999-09-03
Posts 5496Forever In Your Heart |
I agree with Balladeer! I would prefer my children play with a Jesus doll than Barbie or Bratz, dolls that make girls feel they have to look like sluts and puke their brains out to be skinny to please a man, BAD ROLE MODELS! Go ahead America turn you back on God and see what happens? you want another New Orleans Hurricane? More Earthquakes? God is God and he has all the power of the universe, to fear God is the start of true wisdom. That is what is wrong with this country (It has lost its first love)that was founded on God, God blesses those who abide in him, that is why our country is so blessed with freedom, food, resources, etc. But just like the days of Noah, and Sodom, people have turned their backs on God, and God is a loveing God, but a just God as well, woe to this country and the things yet to come! Its all in the bible, it is only going to get worse, Revelation is yet to be fullfilled, but the hour of Jesus return is drawing near, for the signs he speaks of in Matthew are here. PORN is the the most destructive tool satan uses to belittle women, to place in the minds of men what women should do, or be like, GOd didn;t make women to be sluts or to be treated disrespectfully. I have taught both of my sons to respect women, not lust over them like dogs, that women are humans, have hearts, emotions, and brains, personalities and feelings. NOT JUST A PIECE OF MEAT. God created woman for man as his helpmate and companion, God created sex for marriage, a MAN AND WOMAN marriage. Homosexuality is an abomination to the Lord.All throughout the bible, (If you read it) you will find scriptures to what God says and who will enter into his kingdom and who will not. IF you do not accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior by asking for forgiveness of your sins, and receiving him into your heart,and haveing a daily relationship with him, you are not saved, and the day you die and face judgement ( WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE SOMEDAY) Jesus will say depart from me, for I knew you not, and you will be cast into the eternal lake of fire. Its better to be safe than sorry, you don't know what awaits you on the other side? until you die, then it is too late! I know what awaits on the other side, I have had my prayers answered and God is as real today as he was when he spoke to moses at the burning bush. I have heard his voice and I have seen miracles in his name, by the blood of Jesus, I pray each and every soul here to come to Jesus, and find true love, everlasting life, before it is too late, then next hour of your life, the next minute could be your last, are you going to spend it in Heaven or HEll? it is your choice and it is all eternity. God Bless, Love to everyone in Jesus name I pray amen! |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
"Christmas is Christ's birthday." ~ No, it is not. The modern day celebration is rooted in the celebration of the winter solstace during the reign of Constantine. When Constantine converted [cough cough] to Christianity, in order to keep the celebration, he declared the time to be a celebration of Christ's birth. Most likely, the true Jesus was born somewhere between mid October to mid November. "Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself." |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Thank you Jesus. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
quote:This country wasn't fouded on God. It was in fact founded on freedom. There is no freedom in God, only servitude. quote:God must be in the import/export business then, since a goodly portion of our bounty comes from overseas, eh? quote:Wow. Wow. You know, I find it continually amusing that women are belittled in pornography, while men are left unscathed. It's amazing. I'm glad you pointed out what women are actually for, I'd been wondering... quote: quote:So, I'm guessing if someone is "saved" and then turns to homosexuality, there's a retraction printed in the next morning's edition of the Times? And - see Mike, told you! quote:That has to be the best reason for religion I have ever heard. It minds me of the smarmy guy in The Mummy who, upon coming face to face with the mummy starts sucessively pulling out totems from various religions and praying to the appropriate deity. Better safe than sorry, I agree. You know, at the end of the day, I support your right to believe whatever you want, but it's these types of intolerant perspectives that make me want to avoid having to explain religion to my son until he is a bit older. It's hard enough being a parent (as any parent already knows). Half my time with my two-year-old is spent trying just to protect him physically inside our own home... one moment he thinks he's a mountain climber, scaling the counters and entertainment centers, the next he thinks he's speed raced on his bike. Why should someone else force me to address additional peril (be it emotional and mental) while I've got my hands full already? If so many Christians believe Jesus is the Saviour, what gives them the right to act like Him for me; I don't need a saviour and if I did, hey, why send me an impression instead of the real deal? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
So, I'm just going to take a wild guess, that an Anton Levay doll would not be a welcome present in ARH's house? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Anton LeVay isn't even welcome in MINE.  |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
"Thank you Jesus. ~ You are welcome, my child. "Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself." |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Guess you were right, Chris. I'm headed to Wal-Mart for asbestos swim trunks! There is one part I agree with, though. A Jesus doll would DEFINITELY be less emotionally destructive than a Barbie doll! |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I think the tenth month should be renamed as December, since decem actually means "ten". If October were renamed as December, then we may rightly still celebrate Christmas on December 25th, but be most close to Christ's real birthday too. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Christopher: quote: Our founding documents have very religious ideas as the basis for freedom, ie "inalienable rights endowed by the Creator". A bit too distant and deist for me (and thus lending toward individualism), and yet housing a concept firmly rooted in the Judeo-Christian view of an infinite personal God, and no other. Our founding fathers understood that unless heaven provides the basic assumptions of human rights, there is no ground for them. Either Ceasar is God or God is God. If Ceasar is God, then there is nothing or no one to tell him what is right or wrong. Freedom for him, apart from a higher law, means freedom to do what he wishes to you. Also, it is the Christian doctrine that only by becoming a servant to God can true freedom be found. Much in the same way that allowing your desires and whims complete "freedom" leads to something much more like bondage. Now, after having said that, I will agree with you that the machine gun method of communicating Christian truth (as you witnessed) is not the best way, as it tends to be offensive and builds walls. But after the bullets cool off, I urge you to examine them more closely. You may find that they were made of Gold. Wrong use perhaps, but the substance is a different matter altogether. And gold-diggers don't necessarily have to approve of gunslingers. Stephen. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
I'm happy when I'm supposed to be happy. Life affirming events, achievements of self or others, playing with my children, watching them grow, a lover's embrace, buying a new guitar, playing an old guitar, building a guitar, writing a song, performing a song, watching an interesting movie or program, reading a good book, a cup of tea. Celebrating holidays in my own way with my own traditions. I'm perfectly capable of enjoying these things, as I should. I'm sad when I'm supposed to be sad. When I fail. When someone else fails. The absence of a lover's embrace. A sick child. My own illness. Unnecessary loss of human life. The death of a pet. The destruction of a work of art or a landmark, or watching someone destroy themselves. I grieve in these things, as I should. The government grants equal rights to all. One day that will include marriage equality, gender equality, racial equality, equality of economic opportunity. Our nation is a nation of people who, like most people in the world, want to do good things. Our ideas of good have not always been good though. We have a tarnished past, a troublesome present, and a promising future. Grandfather dies. Father dies. Son dies. This is prosperity. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Brilliant. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Okay, I have a vision. Darwin, Jesus, and Levay(sp?) dolls, all lined up on the mantle with school portraits of the kids... and all holding hands. (Do the dolls have moveable arms/hands? I hope so!) They should all be kneeling and facing east (or west, I suppose, depending on your geographic location.) Chris- I think November is a bleak and dismal month, and I have to work on Thanksgiving, so I don't even have that. So.... I skipped November and went straight into December mode. I'm rubbing my hands together in excitement, as I plan to brave the crowds Friday morning after work (I actually enjoy the chaos more than the sales), and I can't wait for snow- I hope there's a lot this year. Look, Christmas, traditionally, as I and JCP have both pointed out, was just a "christian" renaming of Saturnalia/winter celebration. Whether or not Christ was actually born on that day is, in my opinion, irrelevant to current celebration. I love Christmas for all of its secular implications- seeing family, the glut of tasty food, and the shameless commercialism. I'm not saying Christians shouldn't worship Christ- go to church and throw a birthday party for him! That's great! But it shouldn't be implied that people shouldn't enjoy Christmas without a proper religious backing, because the "official" religious backing isn't the original reason for the celebration anyway! And besides that, the winter season is a time for celebration for many major religions. So even for atheists, or agnostics, or whatever, I think there's a natural human tendancy to celebrate at this time of the year, probably because with colder temps and longer nights, we need a pick me up. Is that so terrible? And, Mike, echoing Chris- "told ya so!" 'Go ahead America turn you back on God and see what happens? you want another New Orleans Hurricane?' 'All throughout the bible, (If you read it) you will find scriptures to what God says and who will enter into his kingdom and who will not.' This is the first time you've heard statements like this, Mike? Not for me. So, is this an example of civilized or uncivilized religion? 'IF you do not accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior by asking for forgiveness of your sins, and receiving him into your heart,and haveing a daily relationship with him, you are not saved, and the day you die and face judgement ( WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE SOMEDAY) Jesus will say depart from me, for I knew you not, and you will be cast into the eternal lake of fire.' Can I take a bikini? 'PORN is the the most destructive tool satan uses to belittle women, to place in the minds of men what women should do, or be like, GOd didn;t make women to be sluts or to be treated disrespectfully.' This makes me just itch to go streaking right now, 26 degrees out and all. Just 'cause, it sounds like fun. But I will keep this in mind- no night job (or day job, as it were) as a porn star for me as I obey my husband... I must be treated with respect. Romantic Heart... I gotta say, I thought you were joking at first... you know, sarcasm? Ever seen the movie 'Saved?' Like that. But: 'Go ahead America turn you back on God and see what happens? you want another New Orleans Hurricane?' To me, you are crossing the line. You are essentially blaming me (and others) for hurricane Katrina. (Sorry about all that, Karen!) Seriously, if I ever take care of you in a hospital, remind me to tell you about how your illness is due to you not being holy or godly enough. *Shakes head.* To Karen, and anyone else here ever affected by a natural disaster, I'm sorry you even had to read that. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I see a difference between what you have focused on, L.R. and what the founding fathers focused on: they spoke of inalienable rights endowed by the Creator (among these life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness), and you speak of government granted equal rights. Governments can't grant what God has already given. They can only respect, uphold and protect our God-given rights, which was the philosophy of the founders, or governments can disregard them by placing themselves on the throne. Government granted rights can change with the wind, depending on the government. Creator-endowed rights stand, unchanged, for all time, whether a government protects and upholds them or not, whether I actually get to enjoy them or not. And I believe that governments are judged on that basis. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Ousamequin, or Yellow Feather (Massasoit) |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
....obviously said before the birth of Donald Trump Happy turkey day, reb |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Thank you hush. The natives here just laugh at that stuff now. It is the truth that Hurricane Katrina effectively canceled last year's scheduled Southern Decadence festival (that would be like, um, a GAY carnival ARH) so surely there MUST BE A CONNECTION. (The all caps is sarcatic yelling just for your benefit, hush. )But let's take a moment and think, shall we? Or try. Nod. Let's try. Hurricane Katrina, actually MISSED New Orleans. Had the levees contained the massive tidal surge, this argument would be null and void. Actually, I think it's null and void anyhow. It not only missed New Orleans, but if you KNOW New Orleans, then you would know that the sections of the city that the majority of our very vocal gay community reside in were virtually untouched. That's right. The French Quarter? Ya'll didn't see that blown away, did you? I didn't. I didn't even see water in the streets there. Nor was there any in neighboring Faubourg Marigny, nor the gorgeous renovo jobs off Magazine, and it was close, but nope, not even the section of the Garden District.So hmmm---either God took a swipe at all the queers and MISSED--or, using the logic of ARH, God just hates rednecks? (That is a good natured joke-word, as referenced by Jeff Foxworthy of "You might be a redneck if..." fame, no offense intended to our fellow Katrina victims in Mississippi and Alabama, who btw, are not forgotten by the REMAINING residents of New Orleans.) So do tell doomsday prophets, who had sinned in those states? Or in Florida the previous year, when they were unmercifully pounded with three Hurricanes in a row? Romantic Rose? I think you've snorted too much pollen dear. Your logic, like New Orleans, is a wash. Happy Thanksgiving sweetie. (and serenity loves hush.  You too, C. MUAH)And actually, I got more offended for two of our more silent members of Pip who virtually lost everything they owned in St. Bernard. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Bettie has something to say. She also lost everything to Hurricane Katrina, but she said a prayer of gratitude today for her family and her feast, reunited AT HOME, IN SIN CITY, with her family. This little lady says the rosary at least once a day. I'd love to hear you say that to my mother in law's face. I could sell tickets. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Why not admit that there is much unexplained, which warrants our thoughtful sensitivity (in making statements of judgement), and yet still keep an open mind when it comes to the connection between divine wrath and the power and terror of nature? It's not the first time such connections have been made, and I'm not sure that they've all been mistaken about that ... though I'm not inclined to think that every would-be-preacher is right either. It seems the safest, least cocky place to stay, ideologically speaking. Just a plea for balance, for all. There may be even truth in the argument of the person(s) who aggravate us most. Stephen. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Sure. I don't think Romantic Heart meant to hurt anybody's feelings. I truly don't. I actually think that if she should come to New Orleans, especially during carnival, and wear one of those lovely vintage style costumes that I've seen pictures of her in, I think that she would be joyfully embraced by the gay community, and if she should happen to meet some of my gay friends, I truly believe she would see the beautiful humanity of them, and would reconsider her stance with this oft-repeated, and thoughtless tirade of "God's Wrath." And some call it God's Wrath, I call it Earth Changes, so shrug...either way, the aftermath truly IS living hell. But don't mistake my tone there for animosity--I am wearily amused actually. Now, my mother-in-law, Bettie? She might require extra meds tonight--this kinda talk gets her going. (ah...good, she's very calmly reading now--Nora Roberts--Bettie's a big fan of hers.)  And really--Love to All. Ta! |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Spoken by someone who clearly never tried to share a cave with a bear and her two cubs? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: I now understand why Natural Rights theory has always bothered me. It has nothing to do with protecting rights, it's a basis for judgement. One wonders how this argument plays in Myanmar. quote: C'mon Stephen, are you kidding? What would happen if someone came on this site and said that 911 was Divine retribution from God? That America and its citizens, none of whom are innocent, deserved it and God's wrath will continue unless we all convert to the one true God, praise Allah? I recognize that silence against such an onslaught is sometimes the best policy, but appeasement is not. We were talking about dolls at the beginning of this thread were we not? And still my basic point is the same. As a harmless gift, I just think it should have been left up to Toys for Tots. If it is a tool to advance a fundamentalist and theocratic agenda, then well, don't your words somehow just ring a little hollow? For the record, I don't think you personally are involved in either fundamentalism or a theocratic agenda, but I don't think it does any of us much good to soften the bloody obvious. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: I'm not kidding anyone Brad. Since you asked, I believe that such disasters are ultimately under the hand of God, for some purpose. And divine "wrath" is a part of the picture, and a compelling reason for personal repentance. If someone said that to me, the inaccuracies of Islamic religion aside, I would think that they were unwittingly right in many ways. I don't believe in the exclusive "God Bless America" god who wears stars and stripes. I do however think that some of our stars and stripes are heaven sent, to awaken us. It's only when we're so convinced that we don't somehow deserve wrath, that we are angered by the mere suggestion of it's expression in space-time. Does that mean that we should glibly say it, often say it, or put on self righteousness? No, quite the opposite. I despise that attitude too. Jesus was one who wept over Jerusalem on the eve of her demise. And I respect most those who say such things with tears in their eyes, not sneers on their lips. But I can't help but to point out that reacting to bad taste, is no excuse for discarding the whole idea. Stephen. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I've never understood the "divine wrath" theory. We ask why God doesn't just make man perfect and free of tragedies and the answer comes that God created Man to make his own decisions. So then,by making his own decisions, we are to understand that God will invoke his divine wrath on them if their decisions are not to His liking??? If God didn't want it to happen, then why allow it to happen in the first place? Why is it so hard for people to understand that things can happen just because they happen?? Hurricanes can happen because there are hurricanes. They are no more an indication of God's wrath than early civilizations viewed an eclipse as a sign ofan angry god and sacrificed people to appease him. Things happen.....period. I refer once again to the bumper sticker that reads.. DEAR GOD...PLEASE PROTECT ME FROM YOUR FOLLOWERS. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Stephen, If I understand you correctly, doesn't it follow that natural disasters or disaster of any sort would have to be random? That is, Mike's euphemistic, 'things happen'. Otherwise, doesn't the idea that all sinners are equal in the eyes of God become "All sinners are equal but some are more equal than others."? |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
I agree with both Mike's and Brad's latest replies. To me, it is completely silly to believe that a God would create people, give those people free-will, and then "have a hand" on killing those people through natural disasters, etc., because some, few, many, of those people don't have the capacity to understand EXACTLY what said God wants. When I studied Christianity, I came away with a different view on why natural disasters occur, including why God allows suffering - a view that is much much more palatable and logical than the rantings of so-called christian preachers who say sinners deserve God's wrath. "Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself." |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Mike? I want one of those bumper stickers! And I am not Christian, Jew, Muslim, ...they all attempt to box the mind and soul within their own parameters, their walls. But I just cannot imagine giving or receiving something so inherently commercially obscene as a bible spouting doll. At the very least, it is a lame lame gift! And if my daughter had ever been handed one such doll?  (Chuckling here) Well, when given a Barbie doll, she took the clothes off, yanked the head off, then threw the whole pile into the trash can and went back inside to play with her 'my little kitties' and 'my little ponies' I applauded her! |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Brad and Balladeer, I guess I'll respond by saying that the easiest way to discount something is to make a caricature of it ... or to mistake it for an extreme. The picture of natural distasters and other occurences which may be called "divine judgement" in the Bible, is actually much more complex than any quick answer. The biblical examples of Divine wrath being expressed through weather, war, disease, are obvious. But does that mean that every time there is ill weather, or a crippled child, that God's wrath is being expressed? I think the theology of the book of Job, and Ecclesiastes deal with that question. Such books were given to make us understand that our tendency to label are often misplaced, and cause others pain. Just think of Job, who was told by "friends" that his personal sin was the root of his affliction. Then the writer of that book had the audacity to attribute it to his righteousness! And even in the New Testament, Jesus rebukes his disciples for assuming that a man was born blind because of his sin, or his parents. The other extreme, of course, is to discount the rest of the data we have ... to say that it's archaic, cruel, and superstitious to believe that God expresses displeasure through Earthly occurrences. But if the one position tends to self righteousness, (in telling others that their sufferings are due to sin), so does this one. We begin, humanistically, to think that we are beyond the deserving of such, that the communications of scripture which tell us that we are separated from God through sin, are wrong. "We're pretty good people", I've felt my own heart say from time to time. Until I realize how utterly presumptuous that is. Does that mean that God is hurling lightning bolts? Does that mean that such things should be viewed as active retribution? I'm not sure. I think an equally apt picture of judgement is a removal of protection. Would God cause 9/11? Would God lift a certain layer of protection, because of an increased tendency in the country for self reliance and impiety? I think that's more than a possibility. Is it just to hurt us and make us cry? I think that's less probable. Even Karen has reported that she's seen much human virtue arise out of such a situation. I have no doubt that priorities change quite a bit under such duress, and neglected aspects of human nature are dusted off and reconsidered. Church attendance was exposive immediately following 9/11. Was it superficial? Did it last? That's another question. But my point is that there are purposes, and reasons behind all such happenings that are connected with God's will. That's not always a bad thing, though the tragedy is no less of a tragedy. The same includes things which happen not as "judgement" at all. Consider Job, where revelation was given, confidence restored, character sharpened. I suppose that's my answer to Brad's statement about things being "random". I'm not convinced, on one level, that they ever really are. On a strictly physical level perhaps it can be interpreted that way, but my view of the world is more multi-layered than that. Don't tell me that I am ignoring the subtleties of life, with my view. Scripturally all of this discussed and anticipated. I'm only here to tell you that my view seems broader, not narrower than one that would discount divine wrath off hand. And whenever I hear it attacked, I feel obligated to sound a warning of "p-please don't ...". Not angry, am I. Just that I am convinced of the reality of sin and judgement, that I want to sow the seed in the minds of those who seem to reject the idea. And reintroduce a more subtle view, to those who have been offended by a more extreme view from some pulpit somewhere. Thanks for listening, Stephen. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
quote: *shaking my head* I'm not sure if I want that explained... |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
I did read this thread and had nothing to say until today on the news they showed the Muslims, and East Indians, busy putting up Christmas decorations. The announcer of course started his interview, including questions about the Jesus and Moses dolls about to be marketed. Now, these were recent citizens to Canada and they love the Christmas holiday season so much they volunteer to put up the city's decorations for the holidays too! I loved it when asked, one man said, "Of course we celebrate, we love this holiday, and respect all religions." "Our children attend school with many nationalities, we show our respect to our children's friends and their families in this way" said one lady. She also said, "Yes we might buy our children the doll just to show them what Jesus looks like and what he taught." She then asked the announcer on CBC, "Don't you think we all need to understand other religions more in order to stop the hatred, war, and sheer ignorance?" I cheered, "You go gurl!" For what it's worth, I think that Jesus doll looks like Al Pacino and I told Karen and Mike - but here you decide.  |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Karen, I will explain, whether wanted or not. What I meant was, that you, who have seen more suffering and pain from natural distaster than any of us ... have still recognized blessings in the midst of, because of, and in spite of what happened. It's much more credible from your mouth than from mine, that's why I mentioned it. Stephen. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
ah sweetie? I think maybe I just complained more. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
and OMG...Shar? that's hilarious... |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
You expected different, Mysteria? God - Godfather...no explanation is necessary |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Not to be forgotten...Al Pacino as Satan in "The Devil's Advocate". "Vanity" was his favorite sin. *ahem* Just to get us nearer to "on topic" *cackle* |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Stephen, thank you for taking the time to explain your position. "We're pretty good people", I've felt my own heart say from time to time. Until I realize how utterly presumptuous that is. That is a fence that will always separate us. I happen to believe we ARE pretty good people and don't find it presumptious at all. I find it much more realistic than to believe we are unworthy creatures who should be constantly on our knees begging for forgiveness. If God really did create us in His image, I doubt he would use a derelict as his model. Show me a religion that preaches that Man is inherently good and worthy and I will show you a religions that will have me in the palm of its hand. Unfortunately the religions of the day prefer to have us buckle under the yoke of original sin, which we had no voice or choice in at all. I am not into self-immolation..... I do believe that cause and effect has been the greatest weapon in religion's arsenal throughout the ages. For anything bad that happens to you, there is a priest who will tell you exactly why you deserved it. They will even tell New Orleans that the hurricane was the price of a lawless, gangter-filled, den of bars, strip joints, casinos and crooked politicians.......when, in reality, the only problem with New Orleans was that it happened to be in the path of a natural occurance.....a hurricane. For those who can realize that, they can make a new beginning and go on. Those who prefer the divine retribution philosophy will be convinced they are damned by their Creator and spend the rest of their lives cowering in fear. I think the church prefers the second choice... |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
Again, Mike makes much sense. "... Church attendance was exposive immediately following 9/11. Was it superficial? Did it last? That's another question. But my point is that there are purposes, and reasons behind all such happenings that are connected with God's will. That's not always a bad thing, though the tragedy is no less of a tragedy." Stephanos, I hope you are not suggesting that God assisted with or would allow 911 to occur in order to increase church attendance. "Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself." |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
JCP, your hope is not disappointed. In the quote you used, I wrote that there are "reasons and purposes" connected with God's will. I only mentioned church attendance as a crude outward indicator of spiritual intererst and desire. And the importance of such things, even sometimes above temporal well-being, should be obvious to any casual student of the Bible. Commenting on the doll, which I haven't done yet ... I think there are some pertinent questions to be asked: 1) Can there be a distinction between crass commercialism, and using something like a toy in order to teach and share? 2) Can there be a distinction between doing something for political propaganda, and doing something out of a desire to share truth and beauty? (as you answer #2, remember that most people are not prepared to politicize the actual words and deeds of Jesus ... rather insisting that the original purity was corrupted by the political and ill motives) 3) Is poor taste merely a matter of opinion? Would a child feel the same way? And whose insight is more profound the child's or the adults? I'm not saying that I like the dolls, or even the idea of it. It's kinda cheesy in a way. But I think these questions are still worth asking. Stephen. |
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JesusChristPose Senior Member
since 2005-06-21
Posts 777Pittsburgh, Pa |
Stephanos, How can a Christian condone creating an image of the Lord? Was Jesus a white man with dark brown hair and a beard? There is a commandment condemning making the Lord God into an image. "Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself." |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Interesting fact.....there was a poll on MSNBC in which people were asked their opinion on the Jesus doll issue. The group that most overwhelmingly supported it were Muslim mothers. They claimed that it is a good idea to expose their children to the fact that there are other religions, what their leaders look like and what their philosophies are. They stated they would happily allow their children to have the doll. How about that, sports fans? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Mothers know best. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
That's perfectly all right for someone who seeks the doll and wants it. Taste is taste. But, as an act of charity it's a bit like being invited over for a dinner party only to find out you're being pitched Amway. Or, saving up for the Little Orphan Annie decoder ring only to find out the important message is 'Drink your Ovaltine'. Jesus is a prophet to Muslims and not a Deity. Draw a cartoon of Allah (or Mohammed). (Thanks Mike  but, the turkey was none too happy about the situation methinks!) |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
My first thoughts on this topic: No matter what we think as adults, any doll in the hands of a child usually suffers child love. That could mean lots of wearin' out hugs and sweet sticky kisses, or slight modifications such as a wild haircut and bows, magic marker faces, stolen clothes from another doll, a bit of chewing on the hands and legs, missing eyes, nose, ears, etc. you get the picture, and then there are the drastic modifications such as heads and legs ripped off, fire cracker or cigarette lighter abuse. reminds me of Toy Story. but I wonder what will happen to some children when some radical parents find their Jesus Doll mangled or less favored than Teddy. that really scares me. peace, Reg |
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