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Join The Portland Peaceful Response Coalition Peace and Justice Rally October 3rd!
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Join The Portland Peaceful Response Coalition Peace and Justice Rally October 3rd!
| Announcements & Links |
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Join The Portland Peaceful Response Coalition Peace and Justice Rally October 3rd! |
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Mistletoe Angel 
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
 Hello! This is your fellow Mistletoe Angel speaking out to all you fellow poets for peace and justice, not only for those of you across the Pacific Northwest but to all! The Portland Peaceful Response Coalition has banded to stand in solidarity with all victims of violence, in the U.S., the Mideast, and throughout the world. Being the Junior Head of this wonderful campaign, it is my mission to get our voice out to every community, regardless of political or religious differences, ethnic background, gender or age. This message is for all who believe in a non-violent approach to peace and justice worldwide. Along with our weekly press releases and rallies at Pioneer Courthouse Square each Friday at 5 P.M, we together express our rich and colorful doctrines and beliefs in peace and justice, and through our fellowship, we've created an ever-growing movement in Portland. Whether thaumaturgy, serendipity or just being in the right place at the right time, our voices have reached the ears of many, which have now come together to this climatic event, which may very well is destined to be one of the largest rallies in Portland history. So, please, join us at our Rally & March for Peace & Justice, Sunday October 3rd at 2 P.M, on the North Park Blocks at NW 8th and Everett in downtown Portland. We will be marching to end the wars and occupations in Iraq, Afghanistan and the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Marching for the increased funding of health care, job creation, housing and education and decreased funding of our military, which would go to veteran health coverage and first aid rather than warfare. Marching to defend civil liberties and democracy which we have fought so hard to achieve for years, and nurture from the time our honorable Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. inspired us all and the Civil Rights Movement, and which to this very day we are still fighting to defend. I have said before I would do everything I can to help promote the peace and justice movement and work for a change of leadership come November. Consider this the climatic point of keeping my word! So, to all of you out there, I hope to see some of you, most likely Passions poets of the Northwest, come October 3rd, and, peace, love and harmony to you all! Sincerely, Noah Eaton . . . Join us for what may be a historic local event. If you have any questions or are interested to make a contribution, feel free to contact the following: ********************************************** Mistletoe Angel: noahandco@hotmail.com Official Web-site: http://www.pprc-news.org/ ********************************************** The following have volunteered to this event: Peace and Justice Works Iraq Affinity Group Women in Black Women's International League for Peace and Freedom Portland Labor for Peace and Justice Portland Catholic Workers Oregon Physicians for Social Responsibility Living Earth Portland Solidarity Love Makes A Family Peace Justice and Environment Committee of the Portland Mennonite Church Oregon PeaceWorks East Timor Action Network of Portland Portland Buddhist Peace Fellowship Americans United for Palestinian Human Rights Peace Action Group of the First Unitarian Church Jews for Global Justice St. Francis of Assisi Catholic Church War Resisters League of Portland North Coast Peace Coalition Reedwood Friends Church Peace and Social Concerns Committee Portland Area Rethinking Schools Justice for Mumia Coalition Palestine Children's Welfare Fund Portland Alliance National Organization for Women Portland Chapter Rainbow Coalition of Portland, Oregon Christ the Healer- United Church for Christ Families for Peace American Friends Service Committee Sisters of the Road St. Andrew Catholic Church Peace and Social Concerns Committee of the Multnomah Meetings of Friends (Quakers) Radical Women Freedom Socialist Party And our endorsers include: Veterans for Peace Chapter 72 Northwest Veterans for Peace Board of Peace and Social Concerns of Northwest Yearly Meeting of Friends PSU Progressive Student Union PSU Green Party Friends of Sabeel-North America Portland Radical Cheerleaders Local #2 Oregon Wildlife Federation Back to the WALL FiretheLiar.com National Lawyers Guild NW Constitutional Rights Center Left Turn-Portland Collective Eugene Justice Not War Send Sardo To Salem Committee ********************************************** Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you But if the bright lights don't receive you You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20 [This message has been edited by Mistletoe Angel (09-06-2004 08:11 PM).] |
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| © Copyright 2004 Nadia Lockheart - All Rights Reserved | |||
Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
I'll be there, Noah. Way to go, you are really energizing an entire community to seek non-violent solutions to worldwide problems. Proud of ya, dear poet friend. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Awwwwwww, thanks so very much, dearest friend! (angel friendship hugs) I really had nothing to do in starting the coalition to begin with, but on this particular rally, the biggest thing this coalition has ever done, I've been cited by founder William Seaman as a junior champion in getting this thing promoted. I have gotten No on Amendment 36 involved, OSPIRG, WASHPIRG and CALPIRG involved, the local Kerry-Edwards campaign involved, and am looking to get many others as possible in this as well. I want to get the Green and Libertarian parties onto this too. Though I haven't been here the last few months as much as I've wanted to, I have not rested on my laurels. Each day I do my homework and am just as involved as I was since the Bush Administration declared war on Iraq about a year and a half ago. I understand there are some supporters of Bush here, and I know who many of them are and many know what I believe, and have no intention whatsoever to bother any of them. I'm just doing my job, and speaking my voice, and I believe the true voice of peace, freedom and justice, in my heart, and conscience, comes out of the continuing non-violent buildings of foreign relations and goodwill, not in making war a foreign policy. I've been getting a lot of special treatment because I'm the youngest protester in the weekly Friday rally and this has made me the Junior Head in this campaign. In addition, they ask me to speak quite often weekly before each march. Last time I spoke, honoring all the protesters in New York City, and giving out special honors to those defending Johnny Cash's good name at Sotheby's where the GOP and the Mesh Association were with 154 multinationals capitalizing on his name when in fact Cash was never a Republican nor a Democrat, he simply was an advocate of silent politics for the downtrodden and untouchable, to Code Pink for their Shut-up-a-thon at Fox news headquarters, and to Billionaires for Bush for their three-mile Unemployment Line. This nation has spoken. By almost a 2-to-1 majority, Americans believe America is heading in the wrong direction. This consistent fact tells me that America not only wants change, it needs change, and I wouldn't have it any other way in marching for change. And I know some may argue back and say Bush tends to have the upper hand in the polls. Whether it's because of Kerry's lukewarm likeability rating or the GOP or Swift Boat Veterans for Truth successfully able to get their deceiving sound-bytes across, behind these polls, a majority are still unhappy with Bush. I beam with optimism. I beam with confidence. I beam with the purified hope we can stop beating ourselves up and at least make some progress with a refreshed new leadership. believe me, it is indeed quite a hard thing to do mentally voting for Kerry, who is often described as the lesser trouble, because I too am concerned Kerry would not end this senseless war like he should immediately, he doesn't strike me as a more empassioned or determined leader, and I'd very much rather vote for Cobb whose politics are the most refreshing of all. But believing that Bush is dangerous for our government and the majority are yearning for change, my hands may be tied, but I am willing to make this sacrifice for those 2/3 wanting at least some sort of change. Then, in fulfilling the wishes of David Cobb, I will take the stand for the truest party and work to help expand and enfranchise more Greens into the political landscape and hopefully we can adapt a new ballot system by 2008 that lets us choose-and-rank our candidates, by first favorite, second and third so the people win, as democracy is the people's government, and right now, the people have little role in the government. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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James_A_Fraser Senior Member
since 2003-09-03
Posts 972Out Making Anticlines |
We will be marching to end the wars and occupations in Iraq, Afghanistan and the West Bank and Gaza Strip. In other words, you will be marching in support of the people who did this: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/sep2004/russ-s04.shtml Sorry, can't make it. |
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Ratleader
since 2003-01-23
Posts 7026Visiting Earth on a Guest Pass |
Be sure you hold your big demonstration on 9/11, so people will be sure which side you're on. ~~(¸¸¸¸ºº> ~~(¸¸¸¸ºº> ~~(¸¸ ¸¸ºº> ~~~(¸¸ER¸¸ºº> |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Look, I don't want to begin a heated debate here. I'm just making an announcement, and I don't expect at all everyone will be attending. I'm just providing the opportunity for those like Midnitesun who want to attend! Besides, I don't see what those Chechen tragedies have anything to do with this argument. I mourn those 335+ who have tragically been killed there, half of them children, and my prayers go out to their families and to the hundreds of others who remain missing or injured. Anyway, we began forming this rally well before the Chechnya tragedy. We're against all violence...period. And we know better than to have a demonstration on 9/11. Each September 11th since the tragic day in 2001, we have mourned for the losses of approximately 3,000 innocent civilians and their families. We respect and honor these victims and their families, and don't want to add to the noise on this sensitive day. September 11th was living proof that hindsight is not always 20/20. We understand some believe war is a foreign policy. We don't. We believe the war on terror is just like the war on drugs, or it's just like handling the problem with a hornet's nest. If you take it down gently, it's less likely the hornets will sting, but if you beat it with a baseball bat, they're certain to sting you. In other words, this senseless war is only inciting terrorist instincts and encouraging violence. We believe in supporting our troops by bringing them home, and working again to resolve the problem just as we do with a beehive, handle the issue with gentle, safe precautions. Talk with them, strengthen international ties and communities, educate our children in respecting the differences of other cultures, etc. I'd be willing to discuss this more in the Lounge or The Alley. However, this is Announcements and I am not interested in debating who's on whose side here. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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James_A_Fraser Senior Member
since 2003-09-03
Posts 972Out Making Anticlines |
They were murdered -- some of them raped on video beforehand, some with their genitals attached to blasting caps which were set off -- also on tape, and all within earshot of their parents.... by the very people your demonstration is supporting, the very people our war is trying to wipe out. I find that highly offensive, and I resent our little poetry site being used for such obscenity. These people want us dead -- the only policy that has caused them to attack us, is our policy of being alive. The only way to stop them is to kill them before they kill us. I'm sorry if you are unable to comprehend that fact, but it's a fact anyhow. I don't like it either, but that's the way things are. ~~J |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
James, being against the state execution of Timothy McVeigh doesn't automatically mean someone promotes bombing big buildings and killing people. It's not unreasonable to think that people like McVeigh need to be stopped, yet still believe that taking human life is never justified. Are you willing to drop a nuclear bomb on Cuba? If not, should we then assume you support Castro? You're trying to make connections that simply don't exist. |
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Cperazzi Junior Member
since 1999-12-13
Posts 34Texas |
It makes me sad to read the above reply but I will have more free time available to me that I used to spend on this site. Yes, I realize that I am merely a lurker and I won't be missed. |
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James_A_Fraser Senior Member
since 2003-09-03
Posts 972Out Making Anticlines |
Two straw-man assertions in one post. Interesting, but far from convincing. The people who did the WTC and the Russian school incident have announced their intention to end our civilization, and they have shown repeatedly that they do not and will never respond to any policy or overture on our part. Their acts in Russia and other places that Noah mentioned -- within the past week -- are a clear demonstration that they will continue with their plan despite anything we do short of killing them. War is how you kill people who have banded together to kill you. Opposing that is giving them exactly what they want -- a supply of undefended or weakly defended victims and time in which to plan their murders. In other words, it's supporting them, because it allows them to do what they intend to do rather than taking the only action which will stop them. "Supporting" doesn't have to mean approving of what they do -- no one in their right mind would do that. It only means failing to do what is necessary to end the threat. Negotiation doesn't work, as the Russians learned this week. Making concessions doesn't work, as Israel and Saudi Arabia have learned to their dismay. Being nice doesn't work, any more than being nice to any other serial murderer would work, let alone one with what he sees as a holy purpose. War works, ugly as it is. Just as you don't have to approve of them in order to give them de-facto support, you don't have to approve of war, to recognize when it is necessary. ~~J |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Actually, James, using your own examples and logic, war doesn't seem to work either. How many have the Israeli's fought now? And if you're really concerned about "giving them exactly what they want," the very last thing you would want to do is attack. Clearly, that is exactly what they want, in hopes disparate countries will unite against a common enemy. Or do you really believe their desperate terrorism is designed to actually win a war? Your distinction between approval and support is a valid one. Of course, doesn't that means you are also supporting them by giving them the attention and publicity they crave? Semantics can be fun, but at the end of the day support is still a loaded word in the context you used it. You might be more accurate, and certainly better served, by arguing that any course has consequences and you foresee ones you don't like. Reason tends to sway reasonable people more than theatrics will. While I don't personally believe in unconditional peace, James, neither do I believe in labeling those who do. The search for solutions shouldn't be declared over until the problem is either solved or clearly will be solved. We ain't there, for sure. |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
James, perhaps you should take a closer look at that list of supporters. How dare you suggest these people had anything to do with, actively or silently, in supporting the horrible tragedy in Russia. Of course, you have a right to your opinion, but that doesn't make most of what you wrote factual...except that this was indeed a horrible, tragedy, one more to add to all the others humans have perpetrated upon one another for so long. And all Noah is doing here is trying to bring people together to search for non-violent ways to end this kind of thing. And Ratleader? I am proud to say, I'll be there, God willing, to join hands and search for other ways to solve conflicts beyond war. I know where I stand, and am comfortable with it. Are you suggesting that anyone who goes and speaks out against war is for terrorism and murder? [This message has been edited by Midnitesun (09-08-2004 10:18 PM).] |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
 Look, the last thing I want to do is turn Passions poets against each other because of our political differences. If this escalates here, I'm going to request respectfully this thread be deleted. I'm basically and simply trying to make an announcement, say what we advocate and believe, and how we believe a future agenda can work. Whether how right or wrong we are, you do not speak for everyone, James, and neither do I. I made a fault like this before and now I study and learn from it in trying to be as fair as I can despite being a passionate independent liberal. James, I respectfully take your dissent in much more than just a grain of salt. Dissent is the most beautiful thing about America and what has shaped much progress here, not to mention leaves questions that have yet to be answered and thoughtfully discussed. I respect you for speaking, but please, I don't want the two of us to create a schism here in Passions. Passions in Poetry is the closest to a second family I've ever had, and I would be broken-hearted to see this family be polarized in sibling rivalry just as our nation is now. I would be more than happy in debating the issues with you in The Alley or perhaps in the piptalk Lounge. Here is not the place. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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milkweed Junior Member
since 2004-09-07
Posts 42fields of gold |
When people stop expressing their views, then we are really in trouble. Good luck, Mistletoe Angel. Because I am a pacifist, I will be there with you in thought. |
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James_A_Fraser Senior Member
since 2003-09-03
Posts 972Out Making Anticlines |
You’re right, Noah – this thread doesn’t belong here. My own feeling is that all political talk should be limited to The Alley or a forum like it, including the pap that is being posted in Open, much of which reads more like a bunch of re-formatted party press releases than actual poetry. To me, political wrangling is more offensive than obscenity, because it goes on and on, solves nothing, and almost invariably creates hard feelings. I don’t have any toward you. I think you’re being a model of forbearance here, and I respect your right to hold the opinions you do. I hope you always have that right, though if we lose this battle, the right to voice political opposition will be the first casualty after the right to have or not have any religion you choose. Ron – I’m supposed to be trying to sway people’s opinions? How silly. In a past life, I used to inhabit the political newsgroups. I’ve never seen a single instance in which a person from the center was able to change the opinion of someone on the left, and it very seldom happened with people on the right. So I won’t play that game. I’ll say what I think, and if maturity eventually changes someone’s viewpoint that’s fine, but I won’t expect it. Israel has fought endless wars, because they’ve been endlessly attacked, since the very day the nation was re-formed in 1948. They’re surrounded and outnumbered by something like 20-1, by countries that have the stated intention of killing them all, and most of whom hold up Hitler as a national hero because of his great success in doing just that. The fact that they still exist after nearly six decades is their victory, and it is proof that their wars were successful. Meanwhile, all their attempts at conciliation and appeasement have resulted in more attacks. True, the last thing you should do is attack, but the first thing you must do is defend, and sometimes defending means going into the enemy’s territory and clobbering him badly enough that he either can’t hurt you again, or loses interest in doing it because the price is too high. That’s what we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. Sure, they crave attention – and if they don’t get it by being wiped out in those places, they’ll get it by staging more of the spectacular attacks that make them look like conquering heroes. I DO believe in labeling those who want unconditional peace, because to me the words “I’m a pacifist” translate to “I’m a fool.” Of course war is the last option, but in this case it has been demonstrated that it’s the only option which has a chance of working now. We’re in a war of civilizations, and we are already losing by having failed to fight back for a couple of decades. Midnite – You’re putting up more strawmen than Ron did. Please don’t make fatuous overstatements and try to pin them on me. I don’t care if Neville Chamberlain himself has signed up. Failing to oppose fascist aggression is as wrong now as it was in the run-up to World War II, and the potential consequences now are even worse. I dare make that connection because it is true. That isn’t to say Noah’s people actively support the ones who have declared war on us, but it is to say that by attempting to keep us from fighting back, they are directly contributing to the killing of innocent people and the damaging of all our lives. There is a museum in Vietnam now, dedicated to the honor of the American peace activists who helped North Vietnam win that war (for what it’s worth, Mr. Kerry’s picture is there in a place of special honor). They were for peace, but they caused innocent people to die, and left others living in slavery. You’re right, it is a horrible tragedy, and it is up to us to stop that tragedy, because our enemies won’t. The way out, is through. Those who oppose the war aren’t necessarily for terrorism and murder, though it’s patently obvious that a few of them are. I hope a non-violent way can be found, but so far in the world’s history it never has, at least not that I have heard about. I don’t know of a single instance in which pacifism has stopped a war. There may be some, but if there are, I’ve never heard of them. ~~J |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
I should like to stick to your announcement Noah. I have seen you grow so much in this last year, and you are such an intelligent young man. What you believe in you own, and its yours alone. You have always stood tall in it, and wear it well. Good luck on your march for peace, and perhaps if these marches took place in every single city, it would also put an end to at least part of the violence by letting the world know we are sick of it. Unfortunatley there have been religious wars and wars of greed since the beginning of time, and in some cases war even is supposed to be a good thing they tell me economically for us. I am not for violence of any kind, but then again, I am also not one of those mothers who have seen their child blown up either, and I think quite possibly my stance would change to protect my own flesh and blood. Anyway, no one has to ever apologize or defend what they think in the free world, at least not yet. Good luck to you and bless you for at least doing "something" for what you believe in. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Why are you participating in this thread then? Why say what you think if not to affect change? Why condemn and, in turn, face condemnation if you believe all it will do is create animosity? Perhaps there are reasons why violence seems to often prevail over talking. quote: Being a pacifist doesn't necessarily translate to unconditional peace, James. Any more than being a war monger translates to not having justifications. The fool is the one who thinks he can kill an idea by simply killing the person who believes in it. quote: LOL. When two pacifists meet, James, the result rarely makes it into the history books. You might want to read up a bit on India's recent history, though. Say, circa 1915 to 1948? Unfortunately, peace rarely seems to work unless at least one of the parties actually want it. I don't have to completely agree with Noah to recognize the importance of allowing people like him to have a voice. Because, unlike you, James, I'm not entirely convinced I already have all the answers. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Awwwwwwww, thanks James! I do believe The Alley is the right place to have deeper discussions like these. I do believe political poetry in Open is good too because we are entitled to freedom of speech and I think the title of the thread "Open" explains a lot, as long as it isn't blasphemous or hateful. I've been posting political poetry there since this month began, but what my poems like that do is not so much cry for answers, but ask questions and have a line striking contemplation. I do encourage you very much, James, if you have political pieces, to post them in Open also. I believe we do need to hear from both sides to prevail. Awwwwwwww, thank you Sharon! You are such a special friend! (angel friendship hugs) I understand what you mean, and I understand some are afraid any minute we could have another September 11th if no action is taken. I just believe personally the best way to stop terrorism is to get to the root of the problem, get to the psyche of the terrorized mind. I'm not saying it's an easy thing to accomplish, but it is doable. I've heard what some have said that they want to kill innocent people and such, but I think often we forget terrorists are human after all and perhaps they're yearning for something non-material, and if we try and listen, perhaps we'll make out something we haven't heard before. That's what me and the PPRC believe. Some may say that's utopian-thinking, but I believe fighting fire with fire only spreads licks of flames. (hugs) God Bless You Sharon! I love you all! Love, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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James_A_Fraser Senior Member
since 2003-09-03
Posts 972Out Making Anticlines |
"Anyway, no one has to ever apologize or defend what they think in the free world, at least not yet." Well Mysteria that’s half true at least – but this thread is a pretty good demonstration of what someone goes through if they think like me, and dare to say what they think. Ron— “Why are you participating in this thread then? Why say what you think if not to affect change? Why condemn and, in turn, face condemnation if you believe all it will do is create animosity? “ Because you came into the thread and attacked me for daring to state my opinion – that’s the only reason. If you hadn’t, I wouldn’t have said another thing. Noah and I respect each other’s opinions and our right to hold them, something that you apparently do not. I thought at first that you actually didn’t understand what I was saying, but now it’s becoming fairly clear that your actual motive was to disrupt and start an argument. One other person who started out in this thread has a policy of leaving any discussion you enter. I’m beginning to understand why, and I think it might be wise for me to do the same. “Being a pacifist doesn't necessarily translate to unconditional peace, James. Any more than being a war monger translates to not having justifications. The fool is the one who thinks he can kill an idea by simply killing the person who believes in it.” As you know, being a pacifist means giving concessions to an aggressor in the hope that appeasement will buy peace. When the only thing the aggressor wants is for you either to die or to submit to what amounts to slavery for yourself and all generations after you, pacifism means something else entirely – suicide. “You might want to read up a bit on India's recent history, though. Say, circa 1915 to 1948?” I presume you’re talking about Ghandi, and probably not his little hobby of sleeping with five-year-old girls. His methods were non-violent at first, but they were anything but pacifist. He and his followers aggressively pursued a policy designed to shame opponents into granting what they wanted. That only works with an enemy that is capable of shame, and it’s been demonstrated repeatedly that for those who have declared war on us now, shame isn’t a factor in the equation. He actually set the stage for much of the trouble we now face. After consolidating his power, he forced India’s religious minority, at gunpoint, to move from India proper into a place now known as Pakhistan, and the hatreds that were spawned then contributed directly to the climate that has led to the religious fascism we are faced with today. ”Unfortunately, peace rarely seems to work unless at least one of the parties actually want it.” Are you pretending that America doesn’t want peace? Surely not. In each of the conflicts that Noah mentioned, one side does desperately want peace, and the other side has repeatedly rejected it – as you know. “ I don't have to completely agree with Noah to recognize the importance of allowing people like him to have a voice. Because, unlike you, James, I'm not entirely convinced I already have all the answers.” Your pretense of neutral objectivity is insulting. Since joining this thread you have taken one side only, and you’ve attacked virtually everything I’ve said. I’m the one who stated a position, and when challenged, gave my justification for holding it, then when that was attacked, gave further reasons why I think as I do. Those with the opposing opinion haven’t offered the slightest justification for what they believe, yet you continue to attack me and now resort to making rude personal remarks, while so far you’ve given them a pass. If this were an actual discussion, they would already have given some line of reasoning that supports their position, but they haven’t and you – the supposedly objective third party -- should have been the one who asked for it. You’re right, one side in this clearly thinks they are unassailably right. Unfortunately, it’s the side you’re on. If a convincing justification were offered, I'd change my position in a heartbeat. Noah -- I’m truly sorry this is being done to your thread....you never intended for it to be sabotaged in this way, and neither did I. You’ve got a heart of gold, my friend! ~~J |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Before I entered the thread, James, you already *had* said another thing, reiterating your first. Both of your first two posts, before I called you on it, were attacks on others for believing differently than yourself. I would never had posted at all had you simply said you thought a different way was better. That's not what you said, however. Instead, you accused others of supporting terrorism, resorting to sensationalism instead of reason. Had Noah come back and attacked you in return, perhaps calling you a baby killer as was so common in the Sixties, I might have asked him, too, to justify his position. He didn't, and I applaud his class. In truth, you and I are probably in much closer political agreement than Noah and I. But that's never been the point in this thread. Noah didn't ask for opinions on his invitation, let alone ask for attacks for issuing it, but you felt compelled to offer up both. YOU turned his announcement into a debate, making your apologies to Noah most appropriate. We all have opinions, James, and I respect yours just as much as I do Noah's. What I don't respect and won't tolerate are personal attacks on others. |
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James_A_Fraser Senior Member
since 2003-09-03
Posts 972Out Making Anticlines |
But you make them. True, I did give a response to Noah -- thought I owed him that, since my first wasn't self-explanatory. But it was you, with your strawman assertions and your personal attacks that kept me in the thread. Not that you will have noticed, but my apology to him was for what you did. I felt sorry that a genteel person like Noah had to see it in something he started. Nothing I said in those first two posts was a personal attack. I characterized what people were doing as giving de-facto support to an enemy of this country. That's strong, but not personal -- certainly not personal in the way that your direct insults to me were. But that won't be a problem now. I'm outta here. ~~J [This message has been edited by James_A_Fraser (09-10-2004 08:12 PM).] |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Actually, Noah, it sounds like a wonderful organization. "with all victims of violence, in the U.S., the Mideast, and throughout the world." That is indeed a worthy endeavor. Three years ago thousands of people per year were being killed in Afghanistan, daily public executions in the soccer stadium. For the past decade tens of thousands of people were being murdered in Iraq. There have been over 250 massive grave sites uncovered containing over 300,000 bodies of ordinary people murdered by Hussein's regime. Who knows how many more there are? It is estimated that over 200,000 children per year under the age of 6 died each year Hussein was in power. That doesn't exist now in either country. For your organization to recognize the suffering of these people is very admirable and I wish you the best. I would also expect your group to honor George Bush, who was responsible for putting an end to these two murderous regimes. The alternative, of course, would have been to allow the atrocities to continue against the victims your organization is rallying for, which I'm sure your group would not have wanted to have happen. I wish you the best.... |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Sometimes people can recognize their own behaviors and correct them, giving threads like this at least the potential to do more good than simply deleting attacks would do. Sometimes, sadly, people can't. I didn't attack you anywhere in this thread, James, but you clearly don't know what a personal attack is. Five years ago, I would have taken the time to explain. It wouldn't have done any good, I know, but I would have tried. Today, it's simply easier to take you at your word and be content that Noah and others who don't always think as you do will be safe from verbal mistreatment by you. Pity. I had hoped for more. But I will settle for no less. quote: Mike, don't you mean, "One alternative, of course, would have been to allow …"? Either/or situations paint a black and white picture that rarely represents the real world. I don't pretend to know all the alternatives, and certainly don't know the best one, but I would hope our leaders don't think they do, either. We need to continue looking.  |
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James_A_Fraser Senior Member
since 2003-09-03
Posts 972Out Making Anticlines |
I would have said the same words to you, Ron -- though of course I wouldn't be able to make the implied threats. You were insulting and condescending all the way through this thread -- including this last reply, which was rude enough to draw me back in after I'd decided to leave. I'm sorry you're unable -- or unwilling -- to look at yourself clearly enough to see it. Like you, I tried and failed. From now on, unless somewhere along the line you apologize for having treated me this way here, I won't give you the chance. When you enter, I will leave. I won't make a big deal of it, but I won't be there. ~~J |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Please everyone, let's not fight or argue who started what. What's said is said, so let's leave it there. Balladeer, yes, we do mourn the great losses in the Middle East under the Saddam regime, the war-afflicted life in Afghanistan, as well as the genocides in Sudan, etc. We come to an agreement that the world is safer without tortured minds like him in power. We just differ in believing the type of appropriate action used in ending these regimes. We have already said we don't believe in violence, period. PPRC stands united believing that George Bush, himself, and his Administration, is responsible for the losses of over a thousand of our own young men, tens of thousands of untold casualties of innocent civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, and tens of thousands of injuries in-between. The point is simple. We denounce violence as a solution and war as a foreign policy. We believe there are non-violent alternatives to resolving conflicts like the mass murders and terrorism from repeating themselves, and we believe violence will only encourage and fuel its recurrance. We must strengthen international ties and relationships. We must promote education. Somewhere I believe there will be a compromise. Though many of us are voting for Kerry this November, and it is a very difficult vote to make, for we understand Kerry is the only candidate capable of defeating Bush this November, and he himself would have voted for the war resolution. Should he be elected we will take the next step and hope the majority of the party's delegates (95% have said they are against the war) can shape Kerry up at the shoulders and encourage the closure to this senseless war, where we will be doing our part in calling on him determined to end this war just as he did in Vietnam, and see if he's the same man that came back from Vietnam and gave the enthralling Winter Soldier hearing speech. We have many political party chapters working with us, from the Democratic to the Green to the Libertarian and Socialist, and we're not about throwing punches, we're about throwing voices and ideas. This is not merely a rally, it's a forum in motion, promoting alternative ideas to the public without the use of mass violence to resolving these conflicts worldwide. And in approaching those who disagree, like yourself, we don't want to sling mud, for it only tears the community further apart. You have the right to hold dear to your opinion, we are merely just exercising and promoting other options. Some, may say, our ideas are utopian. Well...I believe the "reformation of the Middle East" with military action is arguably even more so and here in America, the land of opportunity, I believe there will be this very moment when others will hear this calling and we can begin to make this fantasy a reality, for the good of both of us. The Bush Administration has said loud and clear they're "not turning back" despite a majority of Americans believing America is heading in the wrong direction. We say "Let us help and try and find the right direction then, is that too much to ask?" Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you But if the bright lights don't receive you You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20 |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
How I wish you were right, Noah, that there are non-violent ways of dealing with terrorism and monsters like Hussein, Milosovich and others but I don't see it happening outside of fiction novels. Evil is real, Noah. Evil exists. When you find a way to reason with the unreasonable, negotiate with those whose main interest is to murder and rule, please let somebody know. The fact remains that more lives have been saved over the past three years by the actions of George Bush that by any other head of state in our lifetime. Should you state that you are for the rights of people around the world and against the man who has saved hundreds of thousands of them from torture and murder, that would be extremely unreasonable. If you applaud the fact that the murderous rule of the Taliban and Hussein is over and berate the man who ended it, you have abandoned logic. If you bemoan the loss of 1000 American soldiers and ignore the saving of hundreds of thousands lives in the two countries, you are not marching for the people of the world. It would be much more honest just to all it an anti-Bush march as opposed to giving it another name, Noah. In reality, I believe you know that's what it is....and there's nothing wrong with that. They have the right to march for or against anything or anyone they want. It would be preferable if they were honest about it, however. |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
http://www.no-nukes.org/voices/vfp104.html Noah, a link you may appreciate, if you hadn't read this before. if you scroll to the 'next page' from the opening link: Dear President Bush: Our son is one of the victims of Tuesday's attack on the World Trade Center. We read about your response in the last few days and about the resolutions from both Houses, giving you undefined power to respond to the terror attacks. Your response to this attack does not make us feel better about our son's death. It makes us feel worse. It makes us feel that our government is using our son's memory as a justification to cause suffering for other sons and parents in other lands. It is not the first time that a person in your position has been given unlimited power and came to regret it. This is not the time for empty gestures to make us feel better. It is not the time to act like bullies. We urge you to think about how our governement can develop peaceful, rational solutions to terrorism, solutions that do not sink us to the inhuman level of terrorists. Sincerely, Phyllis and Orlando Rodriguez |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Peaceful and rational solutions to terrorism, which is neither peaceful or rational....that would be a solution that the entire world would like to see, Kacey. It would be interesting to see what kind of rationality those folks, or anyone, would use in dealing with Bin Laden or any terrorist groups whose sole intent is the destruction of non-Muslim or democratic countries. Anyone can say, "Do something else." Unfortunately no one seems to be able to come up with what that "else" could be.... |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I'm curious, Noah, what your organization intends to do about police officers in America? If you don't believe in violence, period, it would follow that you don't believe the police should carry guns or, for that matter, even night sticks. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Thanks for the asking of clarification, Ron. We don't have any particular agenda on police relations. But it is a very worthy topic and I will suggest putting it up for conversation at our next weekly rally. Police in general do an honorable job. I was much impressed by how the protesters behaved in New York City. With the small exception of Jamal's assault on that police detective William Sample and the third-degree burn that cop got in watering down that flaming dragon float, it was a very peaceful time for demonstrations and the police. Though I wasn't quite thrilled about the block-in strategy the cops used in bringing foot units from behind, motorcycles from the front and cars from the side and netting them in with orange plastic, then arresting thousands simply for being inches within the sidewalks and deporting them to Pier 57, where there is chemical spillages and asbestos, I believe overall the police did a good job. Some nightclubs were used and I don't like nightclubs (you have to understand I'm a softie to all kinds of weapons) I'm not quite sure who proposed Pier 57 being the point where protesters would be imprisoned temporarily, but the police I believe are not in fault here. There is police brutality, and I believe it is wrong. Overall, I think a majority of police officers are well-disciplined. You can chase and apprehend a suspect without firing a single bullet or pushing someone head-first to the rough ground. As in any occupation, there will always be some more rotten eggs in the batch that abuse their power, and I just hope those types of people can find what it is they're looking for or they can learn from others in their profession. Anyway, we make sure we only get non-violent, respectful groups involved. We have Portland Indymedia on our side interviewing each group and making sure they're well-disciplined and those who are more aggressive or verbal we sometimes consider leaving out of sponsership. We also have a police unit working with us each rally on Friday, for we believe in this sensitive time where the fear of terrorism is great, they have a right to do their job and make sure some newcomer doesn't end up being a violent radical who shouts obscene words and threaten others who have different political opinions. There are people like that too and that is why we're specifically named a "peaceful response" coalition. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Balladeer, I believe just about everyone that will be attending this rally are not supporters of Bush. So, yes, though our rally doesn't specifically read as an "anti-Bush" rally, we do believe Bush is dangerous to democracy and the peace process. We believe we are being honest. "Anti-Bush" is a strong and severe label, to some it may sound the world is better without Bush. Bush is a wronged leader, but there's a place for everyone. I prefer now to say this rally is for "non-supporters of Bush", not for "anti-Bush". The reason why we went to Iraq in the first place was not because of Saddam Hussein being a horrible man. It was because some believed they had weapons of mass destruction there. Bush has admitted himself they have not found weapons of mass destruction, but defends the war just because Saddam was bad. A single loss is a tragic thing. I don't deny Saddam was responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths. I also believe it doesn't justify the right to kill tens of thousands in the process of removing him and his regime from power. From March to November 2003, an estimated 37,000 Iraqis were killed. That number may well be approaching 100,000 now. It is an achievement to have Saddam out of power, but there could easily have been a well-thought out alternative strategy to spare the thousands of innocents who've perished with Saddam's men. I'm not the man with all the answers in any way, but I believe some kind of Social Service mission could have been carried out for instance, to arrest and apprehend Saddam and his top aides. I consider the more common instances of terror-related incidents in the past two years compared to a whole decade ago, the violence in Iraq this month being the worst since May, and the new worldwide poll showing that 30/35 countries by an average of a 2-to-1 margin wanting Bush out of office, in that in many eyes Bush has done the reversal in claiming to liberate by encouraging and inciting terrorists in vowing to continue fighting. I understand you believe we are actually winning the war on terror. I think the opposite. That's OK, I respect your dissent and I do understand both these views are common. I stand by my opinion that Bush has been more incarcerating than saving people. I stand by my opinion Bush is not speaking for the people of the world when by as much as a 5-to-1 margin in 35 countries the people disapprove of him. And considering the indisputable fact that EVEN after the GOP convention, EVEN after the Swift Boat ads, a majority STILL believe America is heading in the wrong direction and therefore I believe it is up to everyone, including myself, to try and find alternatives in hoping to identify the direction that will lead America the way we want to. I'd be willing to discuss this more in the Alley or elsewhere. I don't want to go far off course here as this is an Announcements forum and I only chose to respond here because I felt your comment was relevant to the thread. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Thank you, Noah, and I neither wanted to make this a big issue here but I was interested in what the goal of your organization really was. I had not heard of them marching for the victims of Iraq before the US invasion, not even when Hussein gassed thousands of them, nor had I heard of them marching for the estimated one million facing genocide in the Sudan nor any marches for any large group of innocents in countries all over the world faced with murder, genocide and ethnic cleansing.....yet, here before the election, they decide to march. To me, that makes their message fairly clear. "but I believe some kind of Social Service mission could have been carried out for instance, to arrest and apprehend Saddam and his top aides." I believe that had been tried many times, Noah. peacefully, and also with attempts to get him out of power by assassination. That's one reason why he had dozens of doubles. That's why he never left the country and that's why every one of his mansions were instructed to prepare three meals a day just in case he showed up, since no one was ever told where he would be on any given day. If you think Social Service missions would have done the trick then God bless you. What do I know? I'm just an exterminator. Someone calls me to get the rats out of their house I go kill them - I don't try to reason with them or convert them. I don't believe Ron's point about the police was how they treated the protestors - rather, what do you feel about police being armed, period? If you are against violence of any kind, should police be able to use it in defense of the law? Are there actually times when the use of force and violence are necessary to protect the innocent? If your answer is no then all police should be disarmed and replaced with social workers. If you say yes, then you might want to rethink your group's views, especially on a more global level. It's a good question. Regardless of your group's main intentions I know that you personally will be marching for your convictions and what you honestly believe in....I'll salute you for that, Noah.  |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Noah, just let me know when you are ready to run for office, so I can offer my support. You have brains, courage, a shout of truth backed up with numerous examples, not to mention conviction, and a fantastic vocabulary...that's a combo rarely seen in politics. But Noah, shouting obscenities at rallies, though crude and unnecessary, is not a violent act in and of itself, and should not be a used as a censorship condition in any public rally. I'd rather see NO rally than to go to that extreme. These are volatile life and death issues that generate great emotional heat, as evidenced by this thread and the opinion pages of every newspaper in the world. People are being slaughtered, and I, for one, will tolerate verbal bombs every day if need be in order to find any peaceful solution to stopping the real ones. Thank you, for standing up for your convictions, always with great courage and class. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Kacy, you're right, and let me explain what I meant to say there. Last Friday there was a man who came up to us and said he would physically abuse any protester and attempted to rush towards us to beat up a more elderly protester in our rally. Then, one of our fellow protesters who was passing through from Spokane started shouting a tirade of F words and attempted to start chasing after him to engage in a fist fight. Will (the captain of the PPRC) and I used the megaphone, helping mediate the situation and saying "This is just the kind of bad karma we've been talking about, we are a peaceful coalition and when others may shout out at us, we blow them kisses back. This is not example to how we demonstrate!" So, you see, sometimes there is bad karma and I don't need that, you don't need that, we don't need that. We welcome all kinds of signs with strong statements that are non-violent against the wars and the Bush Administration's policies, we have a drum unit and powerful chants to work with, and we welcome everyone in the crowd to throw their voice as loud as they can. So, you see, THAT'S what I meant by obsceneties. It's not so much what anyone says, it's what people could do in an act of itself. In case we have those like the man from Spokane who wants to brawl with those on the other side of the political spectrum, we don't need that. But, Kacy, rest assured censorship here is at a very minimal level, the only censorship being the use of fist as a demonstration. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Whatever those "main intentions" may be in your mind, I appreciate ever so much our discussing this. I believe we need both sides to prevail and somewhere along the way I feel with my heart we will find a middle ground, and it is discussions like this that make such an event more possible. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: I don't think it's incumbent for us to find middle ground in all things Noah. There is ground enough for all of us. Peace is harder to win than war. |
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Earth Angel Member Empyrean
since 2002-08-27
Posts 40215Realms of Light |
Noah, you are a man who walks his talk and you do it with class and integrity. I have much affection and admiration for you. If there were more people like you on this planet, there WOULD be world peace. Peace, Love, Light, & Harmony, Linda |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
*********COALITION LOG********** Just less than two weeks away from this major demonstration that will certainly become one of Portland's more memorable activism rallies. Anyone crossing through Friday can join us over at Portland's Pearl District, the very site where most of this rally will take place, between five and six P.M. We will be leafleting information and promoting to the public our calling, our voice for peace and justice. UN Secretary General Kofi Annan has now come out to declare the war on Iraq as illegal. We will be using his example, along with the millions of others in America and worldwide as our chance to make a powerful statement against these misguided and criminal policies those who misled many into this war. Over seventy local and regional organizations have now added their support to this demonstration, and to all of them, me and the PPRC would love to extend our thanks. We love you all, you rock! The past week has proven to be a tragic week for both our young men and women and the people of Iraq. Among the tragedies were a dozen civilians killed by a rocket fired by a helicopter into an unarmed crowd in downtown Baghdad. I understand Mazen al-Tumeizi, a correspondent from al-Arabiya, were among the fatalities, to become the unfortunate sixth Arab journalist to be killed in harms way of this senseless war since the capture of Baghdad over a year ago. Sixty-one other civilians were injured in this attack, and during the past week dozens of others died in suicide and car bombings, only one of the incidents killing as many as 47 and injuring 114. The message is clear. This is a war we cannot win. In war, there are no winners, only losers. Together, we must unite, work together to find alternative solutions of non-violence in diplomacy and resolve our differences through understanding. I quote Audre Lorde: "It is not our differences that divide us. It is our inability to recognize, accept, and celebrate those differences." Each moment is now. We must dissolve our fears, only then will we truly be free. As Jim Morrison advised, "Expose yourself to your deepest fear; after that, fear has no power, and the fear of freedom shrinks and vanishes. You are free." Let us live free now and pursue alternative solutions in mediating the threat of terrorism, the fear-mongers, the drama in our everyday lives. Let us live, and rise for peace and justice. Amen. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
*************COALITION LOG************** With our major rally just barely over a week from today, we are eagerly anticipating what is already promising to be an effective, colorful march, with dozens of wonderful groups taking part in building one strong voice for peace and justice. It has also come to our attention that there is another serious issue we will proclaim and educate to the public that is sneaking between us as we speak. There is a bill currently sitting in the committee on armed services, a Rangel/Conyers bill, titled the Universal National Service Act of 2003, a.k.a H.R 163. Apparently, taking advantage of the public's attention glued on the elections, the Administration is quietly trying to get these bills passed now to require ALL men and women ages 18-26 to be forced to participate in a two year period of national service in a military or civilian capacity as determined by the President, who will be reported to service March 31, 2005. Should this pass, the mandatory draft can begin June 15, 2005. There is pending legislation in the House and Senate (Twin bills: S89 and HR 163) which will time the program's initiation so the draft can begin as early as spring 2005, just after the 2004 presidential election. In A January 8, 2003 statement by Congressman Pete Stark, he adds, "for those who conscientiously object to war, the bill assures that any military service would not include combat. Otherwise, there would be no preferences, no deferments, no chance for the well-off or the well- connected to dodge military service for their country, as did our President." Reforms aimed at making the draft more equitable along gender and class lines also eliminates higher education as a shelter. Underclassmen would only be able to postpone service until the end of their current semester. Seniors would have until the end of the academic year. Also, crossing into Canada has already been made very difficult. In December, 2001, Canada and the U.S. signed a "smart border declaration," which could be used to keep would-be draft dodgers in. Signed by Canada's minister of foreign affairs, John Manley, and U.S. Homeland Security director, Tom Ridge, the declaration involves a 30 point plan which implements, among other things, a "pre-clearance agreement" of people entering and departing each country. These active bills currently sit in the committee on armed services. Stark boldly has proclaimed, "If our nation is to go to war, it is only right that all Americans share in the sacrifice of war." Let this not become a sacrifice we'll have to make! Please send this message onto all the parents and teachers you know, to everyone, and let your children know it's their future, and they can be a powerful voice for change! Also, please pass this on to your mailing lists. We MUST take action, and protect our youth from the heinous, horrible sights of war! We'll be addressing HR 163 across in our rally, under a campaign which I've titled "Fire Exit 1-0". The 1-0, of course, is borrowed from the Vietnam era, where draft dodgers by the thousands resisted going into that senseless war. It is the other common term for "conscientious objector" where a draftee could apply for 1-O status if they could prove that serving in the military went against their religious or moral beliefs, and if approved, a 1-0 status was given to being excused from military service. Of course, that status was rarely granted during Vietnam, and will quite likely not be given should this draft take toll. Let's hope we don't even have to be draft dodgers and dodge this draft from ever passing, for the sake of our children, for the sake of our loved ones. Already in this illegal, immoral and senseless war, let us not get all our children involved in this quagmire now. Stop the draft! End the war! Stop the draft! End the war! Onward to Fire Exit 1-0, my friends! We'll see you a week from this Sunday! God Bless You, and peace, love and harmony to you all! Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you But if the bright lights don't receive you You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20 |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
 I went downtown today, to Powell's. It was so quiet downtown. Perhaps, the action next week will liven everything up on Sunday? I still plan to attend, dear friend/poet Noah. I will email you on Saturday, to make some arrangements, hopefully to meet you there and shake your hand, finally.BTW, I now have my Kerry/Edwards sign in my front yard, and my bumper sticker.  See ya, "Sunday In the Park?" |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
*************COALITION LOG************** The Portland Peaceful Response Coalition is proud to co-sponser "What's Really at Stake in November and Beyond?" at the Smith Center Ballroom at Portland State University tomorrow evening (Tuesday, September 28th) at 7:00, featuring three very special voices. Portland's own nationally syndicated columnist, Norman Solomon, founder of Global Exchange and Code Pink, Medea Benjamin, and, if that wasn't enough, the most famous wistleblower in US history, the man who released the Pentagon Papers, Daniel Ellsberg, who are on an eight-city tour of the Pacific Northwest, and are dropping on in here! "What's Really at Stake in November and Beyond?" is an evening devoted to the issues, including US foreign policy and the undermining of the US Constitution, about the declining economy, record deficits and the plundering of the country's wealth. Other co-sponsers include the Portland Alliance, the PSU English Department, and the Center for Social and Environmental Justice at Washington State University Vancouver. Please stop by, this forum is available for the general public to enjoy! A $5-20 donation is suggested, though there is no one who will be turned away for lack of donation. After all, knowledge is food for the soul! Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you But if the bright lights don't receive you You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20 |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Noah, I sure wish I could go Tuesday night. I've heard Daniel Ellsberg speak, so I know you're in for a treat. It would be nice to have Katharine Gun speak too, as she is another recent 'whistle-blower' whom I respect. FYI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katharine_Gun |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
**************COALITION LOG**************** So here we are, tonight, likely facing a crucial moment of truth in which way this election may head with the first of three presidential debates kicking off tonight in Miami. No matter if Kerry or Bush prevails on this nerve-wracking evening, which could possibly determine who will be elected, our intestinal fortitude will not quaver, for we are aware of Bush's illegal, senseless war, his failed economic policy, and, most importantly, his assault on democracy at large. Bush chooses to continue seeing Iraq behind rose-tinted glasses, citing the buildings of new schools, hospitals, the generation of new electricity for the Iraqi communities, the new jobs being created in Baghdad and beyond, and their forthcoming elections. He believes we are actually winning this war on terrorism, when, in fact, failing to use peripheral vision, the violence has only gotten worse. In the past 24 hours, 34 children were killed in car bomb attacks where U.S troops were handing out candy at the opening of a sewage plant. Seven others hae died and as many as 153 wounded in this blast alone. These blasts have officially set the record of car bomb attacks in a single month. And if that wasn't enough grief for one day in Iraq, northern Iraq faced tragedies of their own, with insurgents killing six there, U.S troops bombed another target in Fallujah and killed three more, four died and seven were wounded in an attack on the Tal Afar police chief's convoy, another two dead in Sadr City firefight and a multinational forces soldier killed outside of Baghdad. On top of all that, ten more civilians working for an electric company named Jibel were kidnapped by the Islamic Army in Iraq. British hostage Ken Bigley continues to cry out to Tony Blair to do the right thing and send him and their young men and women back home, which Blair has yet to make that courageous move, who has just admitted himself there are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. The tears go beyond the deaths and injuries themselves. Two days ago, it was reported Army National Guard Specialist Darren Matthew, who served in Iraq and came home, testing positive for uranium contamination, suffering frequent headaches, blurred vision, blackouts and felt burning when he urinated. His wife got pregnant shortly after he came home and gave birth to a daughter on June 29 who was missing three fingers and most of her right hand, showing the continuing devastation and contamination of Iraq. Anxiety and tears are everywhere. Rumsfeld has admitted himself in a radio interview that the violence in Iraq has gotten worse and even expects it to get even more worse in approaching the Iraqi elections. Democracy is a beautiful thing, unfortunately when the CIA is playing favoritism with pro-U.S candidates in Iraq and seeing to it they win, while U.S. officials are pressuring Afghan presidential candidates to drop out of the race against the U.S backed Hamid Karzai in Afghanistan. Democracy is "of the people, by the people and for the people", let the people decide themselves! No matter how much Bush preaches in this foreign policy debate tonight on conditions improving in Iraq, we know the truth. The sad truth that the violence is only escalating in Iraq as inevitably thought among us since before this war ever began. The truth of Bush's irresponsibility and impatience which has costed us over a thousand lives of our own young men and women and tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians. The irresponsibility of the Bush Administration failing to acknowledge the warnings by the CIA National Intelligence Council before the war in two classified reports in January 2003 that an invasion of Iraq would increase support for political Islam and would result in a deeply divided Iraqi society prone to violent internal conflict. This report was written by the exact same group who wrote the newly released classified National Intelligence Estimate which predicts Iraq will fall into civil war if the security situation doesn't improve. Bush chose once again to ignore the warnings and described the conclusions as "guesses" by the CIA. Irresponsibility has proven to take even greater leaps. A newly released report from the Justice Department has revealed the FBI has yet to translate more than 120,000 hours of recordings that could contain valuable intelligence on Al Qaeda. On Sept. 10, 2001 the National Security Agency intercepted messages saying, "Tomorrow is zero hour" and "The match is about to begin.", which would not be translated until after the September 11th attacks. For all we know, another attack is in the works and the plan is buried deep in that library of cassettes. Iraq may already be heading into division and civil war. The Financial Times has reported today that Iraq's oil-rich southern provinces are considering plans to set up their own autonomous state. Members of the municipal council of Basra have reportedly been holding talks with officials in the provinces of Missan and Dhiqar, which have more than 80 percent of the known oil reserves in Iraq. The three provinces have complained they are not fairly represented in Baghdad. Only one member of Prime Minister Iyad Allawi's cabinet is from this southern region. The irresponsibility of this Administration has resulted in these tragedies, these atrocities, this senseless war. And in this irresponsibility, a total of 2,368 attacks occur across Iraq in the past thirty days. 2,368!!! And the longer Bush does not come clean and take responsibility for what has happened, the more and more these disturbances will continue. As it is, a majority of Americans believe America is heading in the wrong direction. When over 50% frequently believe this in EVERY poll, it is clear we must move in a new direction. It is clear Bush is too stubborn to take responsibility, so we, of the PPRC, are proud to give another man a chance to govern this nation responsibly. A man, who, despite disagreeing with his early positions on Iraq, has said straight out he has a plan to begin sending our young men and women home six months into his first term and have them all back by the end of his first term if elected, while all Bush can say is "we'll stay here as long as we have to!" or "We're not turning back!". We are proud to help in the pursuit of a new direction America feels good walking in. We are proud to be voting for John Kerry this November! If you feel strongly as we do against this war, against other occupations, against the irresponsibility of the Bush Administration, and are for non-violent alternatives to solving foreign policy issues worldwide, we hope to see you Sunday at North Park in Portland! Peace, love and harmony to you all! Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you But if the bright lights don't receive you You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20 |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Noah, with all due respect, in post 38, you put almost verbatim an email hoax attributing the proposed draft to the Adminitration and President Bush. The allegations have been shown to be thoroughly false, though there is pending legislation in the House, written and proposed by liberal Democrats. So if your group is planning to protest that issue, put the blame on the right group: liberal Democratic Congressmen. And instead of relying on knee-jerk rhetoric and fear tactics, at least attempt to research the claims on both sides before spouting the Party Line. Alicat |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Thank you, Alicat! I actually did acknowledge the names of the two Democrats who proposed HR 163 in the original post as you have specified. I was not even referring to the draft rumor you have specified, which I have heard about a few days ago and though of course it remains a rumor, I still think we, as the public, must be prepared to act nevertheless in case it is, in fact, real. We have decided to drop H.R 163 from our Sunday repertoire though we'll still educate the masses in being prepared to respond should more official word come out. Consider this a fire drill in preparation of what may happen in the near future. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Sure thing, Noah. However, when I first read the names on that bill, before I researched and found out more about the authors of that bill, since the main pretext singled out the Administration (i.e. the Executive Branch), my first thought was that the authors were conservative, hawkish Republicans, since the Legislative and Executive branches are primarily Republican. See how easily that could be taken out of context? It would be far better to at least give {R} {D} or {I}, or some brief abbreviation of party affiliation when giving elected official names, if for no other reason than fairness. By the by, spokespersons for those two Congressmen essentially said the purpose of that bill was to 'shake things up', since they knew it would die on the Floor. That, at least to this simple soul, equates to someone shouting 'Fire' in a crowded theater just to see if the emergency response teams function properly. In short, extremely irresponsible. Allow me to say that I do respect your protests, and would use any and all violent methods to ensure you kept your right to peacable protest which your group would protest. If nothing else, it does make for a nice circular effect. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
You're right, Alicat! I should have specified the abbreviated party name of Rangel and Conyers. Let it be known that though I am voting Kerry this November, I am not myself a Democrat. I am an independent. I believe the Democrats have many faults as well. Since I've grown to understand politics more, I look back on the Clinton Administration and believe though he did a better job than any other president since I've been born, Clinton made many crucial errors. I blame the Clinton Administration for the 1996 Welfare Reform Act. It kind of set the stage for this constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, which I am voting against. It also, in my opinion, assaulted those closer to or in poverty, eliminating federal guarantee of minimal cash benefits to poor families with children, restricting aid to children with disabilities, and cutting benefits for those of legal foreigners. I also am quite unhappy with him not making a stronger stand on the genocide in Sudan and also, of course, the infamous 1996 Telecommunications Act, which is unarguably the root to all our current problems with de-regulation and the corporate climate. I have my issues with the Democrats as well. I disagree with Kerry on a number of positions, like I wish he would oppose the No Child Left Behind Act because of its impatience and assault on the public school system, the Patriot Act, and I am not thrilled about, until he gets all our men and women out of Iraq, to get 40,000 more troops in the service. In fact, I don't believe Kerry is being quite anti-war. It's difficult for me to vote for someone who is not completely against war, but I believe my vote is justified for him because Kerry actually wants to get us out of there, Bush has no intention to yet. The debate last night clearly proved Kerry believes this war is wrong, Bush thinks it was right, and the only thing Bush can use to defend the war, even after acknowledging there's no weapons of mass destruction, the claim that was central to this war, is that Saddam was a bad man. That's it!!! Because Saddam was simply a bad man! Also, there is far more than simply Iraq and our hard-earned money at stake. It's about democracy. This election will determine whether democracy will remain true to definition, that it is "of the people, by the people and for the people" and remains a peoples government, or, if it will only be a democracy by name, where "the people" will be treated secondarily and we're almost back to a patricians and plebeians type of framework, and will be governed by top lobbyists and corporate interests. I believe in the former. And that is why me and the PPRC are voting Kerry. Once this election goes by, I want to dedicate myself to attempting to see to it we don't face another election year just like 2004 and get the Green Party or an alternative candidate into the mainstream limelight. We can't procrastinate in seeking alternatives. We've got to get the ITC ballot enforced. We've got to allow third-party candidates to find a place in debates. We've got to pass a constitutional amendment or something to see to it ones privacy is respected, period, and that other corporations, etc. can't invade your three feet of personal space. Make sure no further media de-regulation occurs and we encourage diversity and indymedia growth. We've got to move beyond this rigid two-party system. I am Noah Eaton, Junior head of the Portland Peaceful Response Coalition, a proud independent voting for the Democratic ticket this November 2nd, and I approve this message! Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
LOL at your closing "I approve" statement, Noah. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Throughout our political history, there have been numerous 3rd and even 4th and 5th parties during primary elections: Senate, House, Governors, President. And despite what the 'sore losers' (my words) and detractors say, there really isn't any ban or blocking of alternative parties except by those who desire to keep the current two party system intact. During the last 60 years of lobbies, PACs, labor union bosses, special interests groups and politically motivated and funded groups, more and more has the system become 'he with the most money wins'. There have been a few anomolies though, such as Independants winning Senate, House, State, and Governorships. And though Perot and Nader had a strong following, they lost primarily due to voters not understanding them or not in agreeance with their proposed platforms and policies. And the main thing hurting Nader this time around was his multiple political banners he was running under, since states require a candidate to belong to one and only one party. Personally, I'm a moderate-liberal Republican: Republican since it is up to me to improve my own situation (i.e. I am neither owed or entitled to anything), and I have nothing against earning money, and moderate-liberal since I strongly feel there should be some assistance to help others get back on their feet when they can't pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. Cradle-to-Grave education and health care would be wonderful, but as Heinlein said, 'There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.' Somebody will have to foot the bill. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Hey Alicat, I'm glad you mentioned Nader. Let me tell you about our opinion of Ralph Nader. No one can argue that what Nader has done for the past 40 years in his civil activism role is commendable and example to how far a progressive voice can be carried. Nader has given to the community so much in the past four decades, from working as a lawyer in Connecticut, to his time being a consumer advocate, to forming the Center for the Study of Responsive Law and the Public Citizen and U.S. Public Interest Research Group, to fighting against corporations and fighting for environmental protection, that is beyond admirable. He is courageous and he is to be honored in that respect. Nader's positions on issues are also ones I overwhelmingly agree with. I applaud Ralph in defending Roe vs. Wade, how he's fighting for 47 million American workers by offering them a $8 minimum wage, getting rid of gay discrimination in full, that corporations should not be considered as individuals, treating hemp like poppy seeds instead of heroin, the reviving of energy policies, the ending of all logging in national forest areas, ending the war on Iraq, I am in great support of his policies! However, as far as his campaign is concerned, he comes off as naive. He must understand that this is a two-way race we're facing, and Nader himself knows he cannot win this election. He says he has a chance. Of course he does. EVERY man running has a "chance". But having a chance doesn't mean you will have any possibility of winning. Again, I disagree and denounce some tactics Democrats have used to keep Nader off the ballot in some states, as it shows unilateral, adversarial politics. All the same, when Nader continues to deny or fail to admit it, he, himself, has been involved in partisan politics in getting on some state ballots. The way he has chosen to defend and promote his campaign is what is bothersome, using the likes of Republican lawyers to compete against Democratic lawyers instead of his own integrity to find a place on a ballot. Nader's colleagues have worked with Peter Antonacci, George Meros, and, most notably, Kenneth Sukhia, a Republican judge who took a role in the 2000 recount then got appointed by Bush the following year for a federal judgeship in attempting to get on the Florida ballot is very troubling to me. All throughout Nader's long and rich history, partisan politics has never been his game, but seeing him work with the likes of those whose politics contradict his is very much out of character and, frankly, hypocritical. 54% of the signatures he got to get on the Arizona ballot were from Republicans alone. Nader received grants from the Oregon Family Council in oregon, an anti-gay association, when Nader's politics contradict theirs. This campaign approaches seems to strike me as that he is actually trying to tear apart the Democratic party more than getting Bush removed from office, someone who he has been denouncing for a few years now. In that respect, we believe we can't possibly vote for Nader this November, one because this is a two-way race and a vote for him would be irrelevant, and two, supporting a campaign engineered by those whose politics contradict his own. In the end, Nader comes off as misguided, intransigent, and stubborn this election season. He should take the result in 2000 by more than just a grain of salt. Though Gore won the 2000 election anyway, even many Republicans have agreed Nader did affect the outcome in Florida, with over 90,000 votes going to him. Though Gore won Florida, there wouldn't even be a recount dispute if not for the Nader default. With that said, Florida may very well repeat itself again. In the end, I can forgive Nader for how he's been operating his campaign for presidency. Nader, overall, remains a breath of fresh air to democracy, and he represents the true definition of democracy as "of the people, by the people and for the people". His politics are what most of us I believe are yearning for and I commend him for continuing to hold them true. I just hope while we sympathize with him, Nader can do the same for a majority of more liberal Americans depending on Kerry to bring America in a new direction. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
A vote for Mr. Nader would not be irrevelent. According to the federal election commission, the percentage of total votes each party gets determines, in part, their federal funding for other elections. It's that type of negative mindset, with all due respect, that is keeping the 2-party system intact. Democrats and Republicans know that if they can convince people not to 'throw away their vote', they can keep the status quo intact. In short, ALL votes matter, though the effect of that vote may not be immediately felt or realized. As an aside, the 2000 election was the third time in American political history, if memory serves, that one candidate won the popular vote, but lost the electoral, and it is always possible, since some states have more electoral votes than others, and if one ignores the smaller electoral states, as was done in 2000, those smaller numbers add up, and can cost an election. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
**************COALITION LOG**************** Tomorrow, we kick off our longly-anticipated major rally in downtown Portland. Less than twenty-four hours from now, we're expecting as much as 30,000 to march in on the North Park at and around 8th and Everett. I, myself, will not be speaking at this rally, for we believe in having a diversity of speakers from the over a hundred local organizations taking part. I am being considered as a keynote speaker the next time around, sometime after the election. I'll be dancing and marching with the thousands of others, with their signs, masks, henna tattoos, tie-dye T-shirts and political paraphernalia worn on their shirts and sleeves. As the first debate proved Thursday evening, which Kerry clearly won, we can expect more of the same from Bush should he be elected another four more years. More war with no exit strategy in sight. More suppression of our civil liberties. More broken promises and slander. While Kerry had an impressive, groundbreaking performance which set out how his opinion of Iraq differs from Bush, laying out that there is indeed an alternative choice to Bush's ongoing war, filled with flavorful dialogue, research to back him up and empathy in his tone, Bush was inarcticulate, failed to respond to Kerry's points, looked flustered, smirkish and angry on camera, slow in speaking and bland of language, and, quite frankly, was left debating himself the final 60 minutes. On top of all that, Bush said eleven times during his monotonous soapbox, "It's hard work!". This sure explains a lot. If it is truly hard work for him, shouldn't we have someone who is more fit for the job, someone who simply just needs a soy latte and then can say, "I'm John Kerry and I'm reporting for duty!"? It's been over a year now since September 7th, 2003, when Bush asked for $87 billion more for Iraq, admitting for the first time that the war will cost many hundreds of billions before it ends. Besides the thousands of deaths and permanent life-changing and life-afflicting wounds and injuries, the $87 billion could have easily been spared for too many things that actually help for the better. This $87 billion is approximately nine times what the government spends on Special Education. Ten times what the government spends on environmental protections. Seven times what the government spends on Title I for low income schools. Eight times the total given in Pell Grants for college tuition. And...frankly...87 times what the government spends on after school programs. While Bush continues to "talk" our values, the way this administration has funded contradicts what he talks. And, in result, this war on Iraq has costed this nation approximately $7 million an hour. That's over a billion a week! In addition, it is costing each American family $3,400!!! In the meantime, more than a million have lost their basic health care and have nowhere to turn but emergency rooms and are then turned over to collection agencies when they can't pay the rising costs. In the meantime, over two hundred environmental laws have been rolled back while alarming rises in autism, ADD and cancer accelerate, while three times the level of mercury is being released into the atmosphere from power plants, while premature deaths caused from pollution by coal-burning power plants have risen to 24,000. In the meantime our scientists continue to be suppressed, and their reports distorted by the White House of dire warnings about climate change, stem cell research, the dangers of mercury and hundreds of other toxic chemicals, the dangers of depleted uranium, Agent Orange, mining, nuclear weapons storage, and the power plants themselves. Even as over 4,000 scientists including 48 Nobel Laureates have come out accusing the Administration of this, they continue to be blacklisted and harrassed, suppressed from releasing information to the public that is critical of the Bush Administration and its corporal contributors. In the meantime, right here in Oregon, Oregon has received a D+ grade in a report on its health and well-being of its children this year, down from a B- in 2002, the lowest grade for this state in 12 years, with an increasing rate of uninsured children, a rising unemployment rate, a lack of affordable housing and a lack of child care for low income families. The message is clear. Instead of funding these billions of dollars into America's children, into protecting our environment, into finally no longer making America the only industralized nation in the world not to have universal basic health care for everyone, the Bush Administration would rather spend these billions as blood money, fighting an albatross of a war that cannot be won. As we come out tomorrow to protest, to gather in this incredible rally, we will not only be marching against this war, against all occupation, against the irresponsibility of this Administration. We will be marching FOR increased funding in job creation, in health care, in education, in environmental protection, all the basics that make families and a country healthy and strong. We'll be marching for change, as volunteers for a silver lining. Volunteers for democracy. A majority believe America is heading in the wrong direction, and we believe Kerry deserves this chance in finding the right direction for America. God Bless You All, and we will be excited in seeing some of your familiar faces this Sunday at North Parks, yay! Peace, Love and Harmony, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
GRRR not only have I been vandalised by someone stealing my Kerry-Edwards sign during the night, I'm now having starter/engine problems with my car, and must take it back to the mechanic tomorrow...for the third time. Grrr. Sorry, I have no wheels available today to get back and forth to Portland, and 35+ miles one way is WAY too far for me to walk.  As they say, 'The best laid plans...' |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Hey, everyone! I'd just like to offer my belated thanks to all who cheered us on in spirit! All the arms we need is your own which send heart hugs our way, and literally millions I believe embraced us in spirit as nearly 10,000 marched together through the streets of Portland. As John Lennon said, "You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one!". In fact, millions across America and worldwide are yearning for a non-violent peace process. Millions more worldwide share our sentiments, and we are all truly children of God, siblings in spirit, one family of the Earth. We will continue to march, and are already preparing our next major demonstration for next year. Each Friday until then we will do what we always do, and continue to do so until this war in Iraq ceases, until this war in Afghanistan ceases, until these occupations in the West Bank and Gaza end, until true peace is made. We will be co-hosting the forthcoming Ninth Annual Children's Peace Fair at Augustana Lutheran Church, where we will be encouraging an environment of cooperative, creative and peaceful play among children of all ages. I have also been volunteering with Buckman Elementary in their after-school programs in Portland, promoting the ideals of peace through art, literature and dance. Jimi Hendrix said, "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." And we believe that in building communities, we can build relationships, we can build bridges between one another. To understand and know one another is to love one another, and in forming communities such as this, let the healing begin. Now, I'd love to share some pictures from the march to you all! I am featured in the snapshots holding up the "End The Wars" banner! I am the one in tie-dye!    Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you But if the bright lights don't receive you You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20 |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
Here are some more pictures!      Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
    Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
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Join The Portland Peaceful Response Coalition Peace and Justice Rally October 3rd!
