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Furious |
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firejerm Member
since 2000-06-13
Posts 217Springfield, OH, good ol USA |
It seems that once again one of my works not only has been censored here, but removed completely. Some of you read and replied to my topic "Tears and Blood" and I thank you so much for your positive responses. It's a shame that the editors here are fearful of dealing with the actual life issues that we live every day. Suicide is VERY real, and it isn't the first time I've seen suicide and death discussed in prose throughout these forums. Some even more graphic than what I depicted, yet my work gets completely removed from this forum. I'm tired of this and I hope others will stand up for what realityphobics see has "Unfit" due to this, that, and the other. I suggested to the net nanny here that perhaps "Dark Passions #3" the title should be removed because it truly insinuates material of adult and mature nature. If we're living in a glass house, we shouldn't be throwing stones at each other. I'm sorry that real life scares some of you, but I've noticed I'm not alone in my darkness here. I'm hoping you will support me in one of the basic rights given to us by our nations Constitution. I used no profanity, pornography, or anything else that strays from the realness of every day life in Tears and Blood. Angry? You bet I am, and regardless of what anyone says, I've been wronged here. See ya "Dark Passions". Jeremy T. Sellers are you sure this signature isn't graphic, it clearly depicts the loathing of death? 2/4/01 "Those little slices of death, how I loathe them." -Edgar Allen Poe |
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Dark_kisses_Within Senior Member
since 2000-03-21
Posts 680Kansas |
I agree with ya Jeremy. The piece that was taken out was very real. It didnt actually talk about cutting wrists ect ect. It was more of a *mind* thing to me. So many read poems in so many different ways. What the writer meant when writing it could be taken as something else by each reader. Hmmmmmm what to do what to do .... Mags |
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Scarlet Lady Member
since 2000-02-11
Posts 242Midwest |
I believe it is one thing to "glorify" a subject and another to "deal" with it. I felt your poem was appropriately dealing with it in showing the reality, but NEVER once glorified it in anyway. I really feel like this was a bad judgment call to yank this piece. I too have seen some very questionable poetry go untouched, while others were taken off? Puzzling....hmmmmmmmmm? I think that you are right concerning the nature of this forum being "mature". I know that I have many times had to write something differently just so I could post it. It would be a darker room if it were true to it's name and no censorship remained! I stand with you on this one, and hope they hear you and NOT shut you out! It will be a shame if they do! I for one think you have voiced the opinion of many here! |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
You know, maybe you SHOULD have the right to say what's fair to post here.. so...since this site belongs to Ron Carnell and he unselfishly pays for it, perhaps you should pay a monthly fee to have the right to post whatever you like. And in the meantime, could you revise the guidelines too, since Ron is busy now. ok..how much? Well..it seems fair that if you send Ron $1.219.67 a month, you can have the rights you seek... Ok, I apologize. That was snippy. I am truly sorry. I could delete it, but then I've lost my tirade. sigh.....it's Ron's house, we live by Ron's rules. If it was your house, you could set the rules...... again, I apologize...it's been a long day.... |
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Acies
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 2000-06-07
Posts 7665Twilight Zone |
If you remember when we joined PIP, we were asked to follow the rules of Passions and also asked to check each forums guidelines. We were given the choice to agree or cancel, and when we chose agree, I assume it means that no matter what, we do have to follow the guidelines. Most of the time, if a moderator sees a poem that possibly crosses or close to crossing the guirdelines, he/she does not pull the poem out right away. Other opinions from other moderators are asked then a final decision is made. If there are other poems that anyone sees to be inapproriate and possibly missed by a moderator, everyone in passions has the right to notify a moderator about it thus making us aware of it. I see no changes, wake up in the morning I ask myself, "Is life worth living or should I blast myself" TUPAC SHAKUR |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Your freedom of speech only extends as far as the point where it infringes on another's rights. Those rights infringed on here are those of the owner, Ron. As Sharon said, this is a private site. This is not governmentally funded, nor are the members asked to help in any way other than showing personal responsibility for themselves... something which you, Jeremy, have repeatedly failed to do. Ron's analogy is still, I think, the most apt: This is a home. In a home there are rules and guidelines which those inside are expected to follow. Here, I think, they are fairly lax. I disagree with some of them as well, but that doesn't change the fact that we're guests in Ron's house. As long as we're staying here, it's our responsibility to follow those few rules. Like Sharon said, Ron's paying the mortgage... until we cough up some rent, we are bound by the rules we agreed to when we signed on as new members. Some members are given numerous opportunities to follow those rules. We as a team are lenient almost to the point of inanity sometimes in stretching for those who, like recalcitrant teenagers, choose to keep pushing the limits and crossing the lines. Granted, some of us (myself in particular) might like to be a bit more harsh, but understand that the more caring way is probably a better one. That's why it annoys me to see someone repeatedly push the boundaries the other moderators and Ron have so graciously reminded them of. It makes it seem that there's no respect for their efforts. And that's another thing a home is based on: respect. Please show some, Jeremey, and abide by the very few, very loose rules we have here. If you make a mistake, as we all do from time to time, accept it and move on, trying not to do the same again. Failing that, there are plenty of other places on the Net where you can post your material indiscriminately. Know though, that there's a price - anarchy may sound fun initially, but wears on you after a while. Christopher [This message has been edited by Christopher (edited 02-04-2001).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Yep... what Chris said, if ya make a mistake...deal with it and move on. I too, wrote a poem which was NOT yanked by the way? But yanno what? I DELETED It...BECAUSE I saw later, that it could be misconstrued too easily. And as I've said a million times? I am all for free speech and will defend the bill of rights for anyone...however, I don't necessarily want everyone practicing their rights in my livingroom either. And? This is coming from one of those "recalcitrant teen-agers" that Chris mentioned. I do goof. ALOT. But in the spirit of community, I try to make amends. So...hugs to you, in that same spirit...and there ARE other forums out there. But they suck. LOL. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Well, your argument makes a number of false assumptions: First, the first amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." This is your free speech right, not the ability to say anything you want, anytime, anywhere. True, the history of this amendment is more complex than these words and very interesting reading -- why not do some research? Nevertheless, your rights have not been infringed upon. Second, your argument seems to be that your poem (not prose) is real and therefore should not be "censored" but how do you define real? You seem to argue that pornography and profanity 'stray from the real' but they seem just as real to me. Your argument means we can't delete anything because anything can be considered real as you construe it. The reality of your poem (of which I could contest on a number of points but I don't think you mean 'real', I think you mean serious) is not the issue. The issue is whether it conforms to certain guidelines which you agreed to. Certain moderators (myself included) felt that it did not. There are a number of places on the internet where your poem can be posted; feel free to post it there (if you want directions, send me an e-mail). Your next argument is that others have been allowed to post whose work, in your opinion, violates the guidelines and are "even more graphic" than what you wrote. Yes, this is a possibility but there is no conspiracy against you, it is a matter of different moderator opinions and the inherent fliexibility of the guidelines themselves. It's also possible that mistakes were made. It's also possible that decisions were made beyond a 'cut and dry' kind of approach. None of this really effects what happens to you (consistency is a moderator's worry because it deals with the image of this site and it's hard to maintain a 'cut and dry' approach as an individual -- try dealing with all the people who are moderators here).  Overall, your post doesn't seem to realize the historical situation in which these forums were formed in the first place. Understanding that might help you to see that we are all trying to create a comfortable environment for an incredibly diverse amount of people. This is difficult. Yes, suicide has been talked about but it is always a borderline topic (it's hard for many to stay reasonable on the subject even in the dicussion forums). It gives moderators headaches and, personally, I disagree with suicide poetry (on the internet as a whole, they are very common) because it detracts from the aesthetic value of a poem. What value might be gained in reading poetry as poetry is drowned in a sea of knee jerk responses to the issue -- they're not reading your words, they're reading the issue. So, I guess the question comes back to your 'real' argument. Do you want to be read as a poet or as a reporter? Brad [This message has been edited by Brad (edited 02-04-2001).] |
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Dopey Dope
Moderator
Member Patricius
since 2000-08-30
Posts 11132San Juan, Puerto Rico |
Short and sweet: we live by the rules we die by the rules  I was born myself, raised myself, and will continue to be myself. The world will just have to adjust. I'm in love with my shadow I admire it daily |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
There are several issues here: Your poem, your constitutional rights, and the "character" of Dark Passions. I have very little to say about the poem. You depicted a person with emotional stress who chose to deal with pain by taking their own life, thereby promoting suicide as a viable solution to life. Very simply, I will not allow my resources to be used to suggest harming a human being is ever the right answer. I have even less to say about your constitutional rights, except to suggest your should read what is written in the Guidelines about that very subject. Better yet, read the Constitution. I do, however, have a few words to say about the third issue, about the character of Dark Passions. We have one forum that is password protected, the Adult forum. That's not necessarily because I believe kids and teens shouldn't read the more mature, sexual material posted there, but rather because I believe that choice should be reserved for parents, not made by some guy running a web site. Does that mean that Adult is an open, anything-goes atmosphere? Absolutely not. The very first poem ever removed from Passions was one posted in Adult, a post suggesting rape might at times be merited. There is no place at Passions for words that promote or incite hate and harm - even if it's self-hate or self-harm. Not Adult. Not Open. Not Teen. And certainly not Dark. I'm going to tell everyone a little secret that only three or four people know. Dark Passions "almost" didn't make it to the new server. We're short of Moderators in there right now and that forum, more than any except perhaps Teen, seems to desperately need moderation. Everyone in the discussion to keep or close Dark agreed it served a valuable purpose, but not everyone was able to effectively argue whether that purpose was worth the headaches it too often brings. These forums originated because a handful of people, probably less than a dozen, were sick and tired of the sensationalistic garbage they found elsewhere. We wanted to post and read poetry that dealt with the realities of this world both realistically AND responsibly. As others joined us, we made it very clear we intended to preserve our standards. And, frankly, I had always presumed those who stayed here did so not in spite of our standards, but rather because they felt the same way. Was I wrong? Do we have a whole forum filled with people who believe hurting and killing, or promoting hurting and killing, can somehow be justified? Is that why Dark Passions, more than any other forum with similar levels of traffic, is so difficult to moderate? Maybe Dark Passions, simply by its very nature, doesn't fit within the framework of our philosophy at Passions? |
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Craig Member
since 1999-06-10
Posts 444 |
I’ve seen ‘freedom of speech’ and cries of censorship so many times in these forums that I’m beginning to wonder if Ron should apply for sponsorship from the United Nations. To echo what’s already been said - Freedom of speech doesn’t exist, it doesn’t exist on the street, it doesn’t exist in the workplace and it definitely doesn’t exist in these forums. You have the right to say whatever you like, wherever you like but there are prices to pay. If you chant racist remarks in the street you’ll be arrested for breach of the peace or inciting a riot or you’ll get punched in the mouth. If you tell your boss he’s an incompetent oaf who couldn’t organise a knees up in a brewery you could get fired or punched in the mouth. If you post something that is perceived to be contrary to the guidelines in any forum at Passions it’s going to get pulled but at least you aren’t going to get punched in the mouth. There are plenty of places on the web that allow post of any type, Ron has decided that this isn’t one of them, if you can’t respect that then why not use your freedom of choice and post your poem somewhere else? |
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Elizabeth Cor Senior Member
since 2000-10-13
Posts 879Over the river and through the woods |
There are many issues I see pass through The Alley that I am contented to sit back and watch. Arguments are made, points are sealed, and everyone’s quarrelling muscles get flexed. Wonderful. What I see MUCH too often are members that insist upon bashing either A) other members -- which may be a favored past time to some, but seems a waste of time and effort to me -- or B) Moderators and/or Ron. And, you know, that kills me… Ron is constantly being portrayed as having this totalitarian position. As though he LIVES to beat poets into submission with word filters *gasp* and posting guidelines *OH, MY!* and Moderators to enforce those guidelines *Help, Toto!*. I believe the position has already been avowed, quite proficiently, that we are visitors to a private site, and that aforementioned guidelines are clearly stated when a membership is granted. Now, fellow member who agreed to all the declared suppressing decrees of Passions, what I think you fail to understand is not the guidelines themselves, but the incentives behind them. I assure you that Ron and fellow moderators are not “realityphobics” *scoff* (oh and if we’re bringing up that word, let’s bring up another: presumption). In fact, I think they have a better sense of “reality” than you, Jeremy, if you’re ranting about free speech. I’m sure that if Ron could whisk away all rules and regulations without fear of harming the quality of the forums, then he would. One of the reasons this site has kept its exclusive status is BECAUSE of the restrictions placed on its members. If we were given free reign, I’m almost positive that Passions would degenerate into the crap that a lot of the unrestricted sites are. We have to take into account the entire spectrum of eyes viewing these pages; given that, this is a family-oriented value system. And that’s just great. Hey, I would be THRILLED to rid of that *asterisks* word filter, if I knew that everyone viewing my posts were mature enough to handle my.. uhm… well, hey, I talk like a trucker… but let’s not get into that now … My opinion in full: I’m GLAD it’s there. I wouldn’t want my eight-year-old child wandering into the site if the full of Ron’s instructions were not imposed (please note that I use this example because we DO have a member who is eight years old). Instead, I would feel comfortable letting them browse with me (through all Open forums, sans Adult) and sharing what we find. Isn’t that a nice feeling, Jeremy? *awww* Okay, so the purpose of this enormous paragraph. Said “realityphobics” understand that regulations are needed for a nice, clean atmosphere. And that applies to ALL forums, including Dark, and to certain subjects, one of which you have created a fuss over. Okay, let’s take that subject in hand and look at how it has been dealt with. You posted a poem with suicide as the theme. One moderator or another must have contacted you and took that post into the Moderator’s Forum and discussed the possibilities of elimination or tolerance. Somehow this seems… fair? And I mean, really, when is reality FAIR, Jeremy? But that’s beside the point… *sigh* I know that my tangents may seem to be scattering farther away from the “issues” that you’ve brought up… so let’s get back to those… I’m having trouble detecting what your complaint is because from what I can discern the issues mentioned can be solved, but not by ranting in The Alley. My assumptions as to what your pains might be (in question form, pretend it's Jeopardy… do you watch Jeopardy, Jeremy? Man with a mustache reading cards? Three other persons behind little blue podiums? Anyway...): Do you, as an individual feel that you have been singled out and treated unfairly? Do you feel a double standard has caused you grief? If so, I suggest you take it up with one of the Administrators. Along those same lines, if you have found other posts that you feel are just as, if not more graphic or explicit -- in whatever manner -- than your own, that have NOT been removed, I propose you alert one of the moderators of that forum and ask them to review stated material. If it is the guidelines THEMSELVES, however, that are causing you whatever anguish you seem to be suffering, I invite you to go elsewhere. There are many, many poetry forums out there that do NOT offer any form of censorship. Freedom of speech, Jeremy, go at it. No rules, no guidelines, no moderators. And no removed posts. But I think that for the warm, healthy environment created here, barriers are not a preference brought on by small-minded proprietors, they are a necessity demanded by the value that members place upon Passions. [This message has been edited by Elizabeth Cor (edited 02-04-2001).] |
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firejerm Member
since 2000-06-13
Posts 217Springfield, OH, good ol USA |
You are darn skippy I feel as if I've been singled out here. I've seen other individuals talk about far more in-depth, darker things than I discussed in my poem. Ron, HARDLY did I promote suicide. It is the interpretation of the reader, you chose to interpret it that way. It's funny, most of those who are kissing up aren't ones that responded to my poem. The feedback I received directly from it was positive, but boy let me stand up for myself and the poop really rolls doesn't it? I'm the Constitution was quoted to me, I needed a refresher on my history lesson, thanks. I don't remember seeing anything in the guidelines about reality and writing about it, being against the rules. Suicide was FAR from glorified in that poem. It was about a sad situation with an even more horrible ending. It would be safe to say that all the bed side baptists in here have been guilty at one time or another of being a hypocrite and I think that might be happening now. I'm so glad you are all perfect and chose not to deal with life. MA Miller...I think that is the handle, his stuff talks about thirst for blood, EXCELLENT writing, I love his material, but don't you think his stuff should be "edited" too? There is a difference between being "edited" and totally censored. You should redefine that in the opening message when it says "edited for content". It should say, "censored for content". Get off the train people. I came here to share my work with others and get their feedback, not to glorify death, which is a load of crock. I've seen and come close to death too many times in my profession to even possibly conceive the fact that it is glorious. You don't know me, you obviously don't know the themes behind my writing, so don't judge as you have. Jeremy "Those little slices of death, how I loathe them." -Edgar Allen Poe |
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firejerm Member
since 2000-06-13
Posts 217Springfield, OH, good ol USA |
oh and "warm healthy environment"? Have you bothered to read any of the stuff in there? We are all off center and in need of help. "Those little slices of death, how I loathe them." -Edgar Allen Poe |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Firejerm, I'll try to keep this one short. A)From your last post, you seem to be agreeing with Ron. Dark Passions is not a suitable forum for Passions as a whole and the stated guidelines. Is this what you want to argue? B)What does 'skippy' mean? C)It is our responsibility to judge and interpret. That may bother you but that is what it means to be a moderator or a reader for that matter. Even those that liked the poem are doing that. I'll be more than happy to discuss Ron's interpretation versus yours by e-mail. Your interpretation does not negate another's by the way. D) You mention that I and a few others did not comment on your post. This is true but you effectively barred me from doing so by specifically arguing against critiques in your profile. If someone didn't like the poem, they can't say anything about it. You have effectively said to us that if you have something critical to say, don't say it. This is why I work in Critical Analysis. E) You are not being singled out. This has happened before and it'll probably happen again (often without public knowledge). You posted a rant here and we are responding. Some of us, however, get a little annoyed by the same misunderstood rhetoric again and again. F) Drop the reality thing. Bad things are real and good things are real; one does not have precedence over the other except in your own mind (it's a misunderstanding of Realism -- see C). G) Let's see. Bedside baptist and "on the train" -- two more labels to place before my ever growing resume. This is hilarious! I hope Chrisopher and Craig (among others)find it just as hilarious. H) Okay, your angry. We all see that. Why not take a few days and consider your position? Thanks, Brad |
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firejerm Member
since 2000-06-13
Posts 217Springfield, OH, good ol USA |
I'm shocked you actually took the time to look at my profile. However, I have received some disagreeing opinions from some of the poetry I've submitted, and I've been able to take it in stride...except for this time. "Skippy" doesn't mean much, I don't want to be guilty of using profanity now do I? So I had to find the next best thing. You want to discuss something with me then I'll be more than happy to do so. This is the last I'm going to say on the subject...and now have to be concerned with anything further I post in the form of prose being scruitenized. |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
Hes, indeed - Your postings will be scrutinized. You have effectively flagged yourself with your own haughty and self-righteous attitude. I removed your suicide poem - because it wasn't appropriate for our forums. The thing that bothers me, is that you already knew it would be offensive before you posted it. We've dealt with you on the issue of our guidelines before. It seems you don't believe we're serious. Well, Jeremy - Believe it. You have two choices... (A) Continue to post with us, adhering to our (more than fair) posting guidelines just like everyone else... or (B) Take your attitude and your postings elsewhere. The option is yours.... and believe me when I say - I and the wonderful moderating team we have here WILL make sure that one or the other happens. [This message has been edited by Nan (edited 02-06-2001).] |
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Elizabeth Cor Senior Member
since 2000-10-13
Posts 879Over the river and through the woods |
 A popular snack at all Baptist cookouts. p.s.scruitenized??? [This message has been edited by Elizabeth Cor (edited 02-05-2001).] |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Brad's most definitely a "Bedside Baptist"  (think the alliteration was intentional Brad... we know how you hate it  ...) but I have to disagree about the "on the train" part. From what I've seen, Brad usually ends up underneath the train. C [This message has been edited by Christopher (edited 02-05-2001).] |
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Dark_kisses_Within Senior Member
since 2000-03-21
Posts 680Kansas |
Good grief! Does the childish acts need to continue here? Anger is one thing but to degrade and make fun of another is down right childish! I really dont think Jeremy is *flagging* himself here. I believe he had a *gripe* and decided to act upon it. Thats what Alley is for,correct? So to put a red flag on his poetry because of his concerns is singling him out. I have read many others in this post that have deeper attitudes than just Jeremy. I have been in this forum for some time now and so far I love it. I, also have had some concerns about some of the *editing* done to my poems. Yet I talked to Isis about them and we got them worked out. So, see? Not everyone is the same nor are we *perfect.* Making fun of someone that is in the state of anger or feeling he is being bashed upon is just childish to me. Being the *Pros* that you are should just answer any questions without the need to make fun of them. When this is done is just makes that person even more angry. ( I know I dont like being made fun of, do any of you?) I am not writing this to start a *riot* on myself of having anyone else jump on Jeremy. I just wanted to make my opinion known about the degrading actions taken by some that I have read here. It saddens me to see so many still acting like they are in grade school, when clearing they aren't. I have also read MANY good points here on this subject and I clearly understand them. Yet the *childish* writes just threw me off somewhat. Okay there's my 2 cents worth  Mags Ohhhhhhhhh BTW... what I got from this poem was so much different, I guess. To me it was a story about a woman that needed help and no one was there to reach for her hand. It made me realize that we need to look deeper and see the pain some people feel even if we dont see it on the outter level. Anyways, thats what I saw. |
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Scarlet Lady Member
since 2000-02-11
Posts 242Midwest |
HEY MAGS.........YOU GO GIRL!!!!!! |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Dark_kisses_Within Jeremy, like everyone else, has had more than ample leeway. We rarely give anyone grief over a first "offense," and then only when it's in the extreme. We're not "pros" here, we're just people. As Brad stated, subjectivity and constancy is something that's difficult to come by when dealing with individuals. So when that leeway is abused, we people have a tendancy to become riled. Personally, I don't like being called names. But I don't mind being made fun of... I'm used to it. If someone breaks the rules, whether intentionally or not, we tell them and deal with it to the best of our abilities. We are more than willing to reasonably discuss the issues, but when someone insist on refusing to see logic... it makes it difficult. If the issue is dropped, the member hears no more about it. However, when someone posts a complaint in a public forum, we have the same right to respond as he does to post the accusatory complaint in the first place. This is old hat - we've been here many times before. Jeremy is hardly the first, nor the worst. Look through some of the old Alley posts way back to near the beginning of the forums and you'll see that everything which has been said here, has been said before. C |
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Dark_kisses_Within Senior Member
since 2000-03-21
Posts 680Kansas |
C, You made the statement that you dont mind being made fun of, correct? Just because you tolerate it still doesnt make it correct. Being a moderator ( your choice by the way) is like any other form of leadership. New people enter this forum and we must go over the same subjects again and again. Not everyone is the same nor do we all think alike. So therefore the subjects must be delt with by each person. I work for the DOC (Department of Corrections, for those that dont know) and YES I understand how the same topics get a little mind boggling. But as I have learned ... each person is an indiviual and must be treated as such. I am not saying what Jeremy posted was right nor am I saying it was wrong. My point is .... the childish acts of laughing at his comments and his concerns. Being in a leadership type environment has many headaches, I am sure. But to do the best you must like what you do. If being a moderator is such a *pain* , then why be one? I am grateful there are so many or else we wouldnt even have a forum here. But laughing at comments made or suggestions spoke makes me wonder how serious and caring this forum really is. Just MY thoughts, Mags |
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Colin Senior Member
since 1999-06-05
Posts 596Callington, Cornwall, England |
In sport, you play by the rules or it's a foul and you get penalised. If you foul severely enough you get sent off. In poker, you play by the house rules. Here, Ron is "the house" so we play by his rules. Simple eh? Colin. p.s. Elizabeth, I really hope that's not a jar full of Skippy The Bush Kangaroo!  Suburbia is where the developer bulldozes out the trees, then names the streets after them. - Bill Vaughan |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
You're right - each person is an individual, and should be treated with the respect due them. However, when people fail to listen to reason, and throw logic out the proverbial door, then it's all but a useless gesture to repeat yourself. If you're familiar with being in a position of leadership, then you also know the importance of rules and guidelines. If, for example, you didn't have any at your workplace, what do you think would happen? And I highly doubt that you dole out the amount of leniency found here. When the rules are broken, there are consequences. We, as a group (it is a very rare occasion when a post is pulled on the word or opinion of a single moderator - almost always there are two, and more often three or more) decided that the poem in question was not within the framework of Passions' spirit and guidelines. We pulled it. That, 99% of the time is it. This time however, the person in question chose to attack those who were simply doing their job as they saw fit. No one was singling Jeremy out. You don't have access to the Moderators' forum, so you don't see what goes on there. The others however, when shown why we've taken action accept it and choose not to have it publicly displayed. For that reason, their issues are not brought to light. Jeremy decided to bring his into the open air, and at the same time claim that he was being singled out. Not the case - he merely is one of the few who chose to complain about it. Fine and good, but we have the right to respond. If you think it's childish, then so be it. I don't recall making fun of anyone but myself in this post, and Ron, Brad and Craig have all covered the mature aspects. For what? To be derided and told they were "Bedside Baptists?" Personally, I have little tolerance for people who opt to call names instead of visit logic. To do so implies to me that their arguement is little more than a temper tantrum, which I have no patience for. These people, the moderators, work hard - much harder than you know, to make this the best environment possible. I don't get along with all of them, but I believe every single one of them cares about Passions and enjoys doing what they're doing. We're all people doing the best we can for a place we believe in. This system seems to work too, for 95% of the LARGE population that visits here. It's when people demean us and question our motives that we get upset. You have no right to barge in here with no more information than you have and call BS on anyone here. You are ill-informed and therefore unable to present a point of view other than emotional. You are certainly more than welcome to do that - far be it from me to stop anyone from expressing themselves. But if you're going to start making accusations, be prepared to deal with the repercussions. Christopher |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
firejerm....see the "brush with fame" thread. I GOOF alot. Sometimes things are hard to call. That's what the moderators are there for. So...we move on,yes? Yes. |
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Dark_kisses_Within Senior Member
since 2000-03-21
Posts 680Kansas |
"You have no right to barge in here with no more information than you have and call BS on anyone here. You are ill-informed and therefore unable to present a point of view other than emotional. You are certainly more than welcome to do that - far be it from me to stop anyone from expressing themselves. But if you're going to start making accusations, be prepared to deal with the repercussions" WHOA!!! You sure got defensive here, now didnt you? I wasnt trying to hurt anyones feelings or anything. I was simply stating my point of view (LIKE EVERYONE ELSE HERE) but since I disagreed with you on the jokes made, then I see I am different. I didnt argue the fact of the rules made NOR did I complain about that. Since I work in a professional job, yes I know the limits and standards on keeping the rules. Once AGAIN, I didnt argue this fact! Rules of life... always be fair, consistant and non-judgemental. As I see you have taken what I wrote wayyyyyyyyy past the meaning. So be it for ME to barge in and enter this forum! |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Jeremy, you have a very valid complaint, which I feel has been adequately responde to, so I will not contribute my thoughts on the matter. I am here only to ask for discretion on behalf of those who have opted to state their opinions. As per the Alley guidelines, personal attacks will not be tolerated. Any further abuses will result in the offending post being deleted or edited. Thank you for your support. Alicat, Alley Moderator [This message has been edited by Alicat (edited 02-05-2001).] |
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Elizabeth Cor Senior Member
since 2000-10-13
Posts 879Over the river and through the woods |
If a person were to look back over the posts in The Alley -- from the very first to the very last -– he or she would most likely be amazed by how often this type of outburst happens. Is there like a three-week waiting period between each eruption, or something? "Oh, hey, things are looking slow in The Alley...release the instigators!"(not you, rock ). Ron, Moderators, I commend you for your patience, which is tested over and over again. ~ Beth P.S. Colin! That’s a jar of peanut butter, you goose! Crunchy, of course ... if only stupidity were painful. |
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mark woolard Member
since 2001-01-02
Posts 143 |
Edited due to guideline transgression. [This message has been edited by Alicat (edited 02-05-2001).] |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
I've been quietly reading this post...biding my time, wondering if I should say anything at all. I decided to before this post gets locked completely due to complete denigration and/or an insult fest. Jeremy. Look. We had that discussion awhile ago remember? Upon deciding I am not a complete nazi lol I had thought you had accepted that while Dark is labelled as such - it isn't a forum for suicide posts. Finito. The END. That's it. And truly - if you or any other regular Dark poster can't handle that - DEAL WITH IT. Or leave maybe. Because, this kind of discussion will NOT result in a shut down of the guidelines. Perhaps dark is misappropriately named. Quite frankly - Dark is my biggest headache. I FRET over it. Half the time I can't find time to read anywhere else because I have my hands full of Dark. Yet, to me it serves an awesome purpose. There is a close community there - people let out their hurt and receive understanding. Yes, suicide is a part of life. I understand the need to express it. It just has to be accepted that dark or any other forum here is not going to allow posts that GLORIFY or give suicide as a VALID option. You wonder why your poem stayed there so long before Nan removed it - simply because I was on a 36 hour journey over to America for a visit and my computer had crashed two days before I left. Rest assured - if I had seen it earlier it would've been in mods WAY earlier. Jeremy, although you are frustated - I really don't appreciate you insulting Nan or anyone else. It is much easier not to and you will be listened to with more respect if you don't make snide remarks. Maybe I sound like I am lecturing - but oh well... there it is. Frankly - I really don't think anything I or anyone else can say is going to make a tiny bit of difference to your opinion - so be it. You ARE entitled to your opinion after all. Please keep in mind that your opinion here will NOT change the way the guidelines work Jeremy. Like it or lump it. Dark kisses - lol...I agree that people should not be ridiculed when presenting an opinion - yet, that person shouldn't stoop to ridicule first if they want respect returned. That's all I have to say right now.  K |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
firejerm, Still waiting for that e-mail. Brad |
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Irie Senior Member
since 1999-12-01
Posts 1493Washington State |
OH MY! Uhhhhh....I think it's best I keep my "fly off the hande, loud mouth" shut! I'm out of here! ~Sheri "The things that come to those that wait may be the things left by those who got there first" |
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Skyfyre Senior Member
since 1999-08-15
Posts 1906Sitting in Michael's Lap |
Hmm. Where to begin..? Jeremy, allow me to assure you that you have not been singled out. You are not the first, nor will you be the last poet to have his work pulled from the forums (especially Dark) for content. Those of us who have been around for a while have heard all the rants about free speech, equal rights, and the evils of censorship. Heck, some of us have even been flag-wavers ourselves (yes, guilty -- LOL) when the heat of the moment and righteous indigantion seemed to warrant it. When the smoke cleared, however, some of us realized the greater implications of our irresponsibility -- and yes, that is what it is -- and apologized for acting like children who were told they couldn't have ice cream before dinner (yes, guilty again). The rest, who just couldn't seem to fathom the error of their ways, left. And Passions went on. Jeremy, I don't know you ... and I admit I never read the offending post. I'm not sure I would want to. Granted, I've written my share of suicide poetry, and even dealt with the reality once -- not something I care to remember. In short, all my poetry about suicide ended up exactly where it belonged -- in the trash, right along with the VERY BAD idea which spawned it. Yes, Jeremy, suicide is real ... too real, if you ask me. Not to mention very final. Perhaps your poetry is a way for you to reach out to others and ask for their help, or sympathy, or whatever it is you think you need. In a perfect world, that would be a wonderful thing ... but as I believe this post has demonstrated, the world is far from perfect. OK, Jeremy, so you're having a bad day. Or a bad life. You write poetry, you bleed your emotions into the words, you get your release ... and perhaps, you feel better. Your work has done its job, for you. Now, let me give you a hypothetical (though not unlikely) situation: I am a teenager who reads in Dark Passions because the poetry there closely resembles my current emotional state. I live in a home with a stepmother who hates me, I just found out that my boyfriend (who I swear I am in love with) is cheating on me, and I can't seem to do well in school no matter how hard I try. Maybe I'm overweight. Maybe my features don't quite fit the description "beautiful." Maybe any one of a million other things is going wrong in my life that makes me think that it might not be worth going on. Maybe, just maybe, I'm walking the edge. Oh sure, there's fear ... I mean, death is death, and there's no turning back, right..? If only I could work up the courage, it would be so easy ... And then I read your poem. Did it come straight out and say "Kill yourself, it'll be neat..?" No. But it was so moving ... so beautiful ... so ... well, poetic. Maybe, just maybe, someday Jeremy will write a poem about me. And so it begins. I am going to assume that you have a conscience, and that the above scenario truly frightened you. You may not care about your own life, Jeremy, and if such is the case, I pray that you have those around you who do. I hope someone can show you that suicide is not the answer. In the meantime, I ask that you not give that hypothetical "me" one more reason to add to the many I already have ... because you never know, it might be the last one I need. Sorry for the drama. Linda |
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Dark Enchantress Senior Member
since 1999-07-27
Posts 1258meet Morgana |
Oke now children let's cut the crap. Look, Jeremy you should be more respectful of the guidelines that you agreed to and also civil. I mean let's not get into the petty insults. Instead why don't we all try being a little understanding. Being a moderator isn't easy. Dealing with poems like yours (and my own) are difficult to deal with because as someone earlier stated...they're borderline. And as for everyone else...be a little understanding to the issue. Everyone needs to take a deep breath and simmer down. Having your poem removed can boil anyone's nerves. BUT...we also need to move on. So, shall we? I am no one if not myself. Angel of Darkness [This message has been edited by Dark Enchantress (edited 02-13-2001).] |
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Swamp¤Faeryie Member
since 2000-12-04
Posts 393fairyland....of course;) |
Well.....i would have to say jeremy,that i did not veiw your poem as offensive...it was a sad sad story,and i would also have to say that i did not think it glorified suicide,the overwhelming message was in y perception 'sad story,how awful!!'. I too posted a poem a short time ago that i did not necessarily veiw as glorying suicide or self injury,but it was deleted.It's true that it depends on how the reader takes it,it may not always be as the writer intended,but that's life right?? When that poem was deleted i was mildly disappointed,but not really surprised,to me,it's a given,anything ANYTHING dealing with suicide or self injury is automaticly subject to scrutiny. And as a 'dark(er) artist' you have to just naturally expect that here. Please don't feel you're being singled out,just be more careful in the future?! Just because you or i don't veiw blood and tears as glorifying suicide does not mean that someone else couldn't read it and say it does,there is an open space there,you have to admit that looked at from a certain perspective it COULD be construed as glorification,that's just part of life ya know? sammi Do i contradict myself?Very well i contradict myself.I contain multitudes.~walt whitman |
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Irish Rose Member Patricius
since 2000-04-06
Posts 10263 |
[This message has been edited by Kathleen (edited 02-15-2001).] |
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Greeneyes617 Member
since 2000-11-22
Posts 329Arkansas |
Ok. I have read all of this...twice....Why does the word "Baptist" keep coming up?? Please explain. |
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Trisha4_u Junior Member
since 2000-06-13
Posts 28 |
Christopher said-> ( We are more than willing to reasonably discuss the issues, but when someone insist on refusing to see logic... it makes it difficult.) ?? Did anyone give Jeremy the courtesy of contacting him before the poem was deleted to explain why? Or was the poem just Removed and he had to find out WHY? Who percieved the poem to beyond the guidlines of what is borderline and what isn't? Did what you read strike a nerve? Many have said "the guidline have been stretched in many cases and it was difficult deciding what to do!" Example: the phrase "Oh God!!!" can be taken in many contexts...think about it! |
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Trisha4_u Junior Member
since 2000-06-13
Posts 28 |
Im reposting Jeremys poem for those of you who didn't get the chance to read it. To the moderators: This could have been my story a short years back..but instead of cut wrists...i used pills and booze! I didn't succeed! So delete me as a member if you wish but I see nothing in his poem the promotes sucided! What i see is a wake up call for the majority to reach out to those who are ALONE and in PAIN! Trisha Deleted by Poet deVine Jeremy T. Sellers 8:00 PM 1/31/01 [This message has been edited by Poet deVine (edited 03-01-2001).] |
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firejerm Member
since 2000-06-13
Posts 217Springfield, OH, good ol USA |
It's good to see that there are those who can read this for what the message actually is and not what some perceive it to be. It's also nice to know that people took the time to actually read it before nailing me instead of hopping on the piptalk bandwagon, and assuming what the masses were speaking of was truth. It means a lot to me. "Those little slices of death, how I loathe them." -Edgar Allen Poe |
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Trisha4_u Junior Member
since 2000-06-13
Posts 28 |
Jeremy..I posted my last reply after reading your poem for the first time. I read it after i read all the comments and replies here. Thank you for letting me view it. Maybe a few should go to Dark passions 3 and read the message by Ginner? Your poem was about a woman at the end of her pain...Very Alone. The note is a cry for Help! As so many times in life 'we" walk by those in the deepest of pain only to ask the question after they are no longer with us! "Why didn't she ask for help? I had no clue thing were this bad?!!" To which i ask..."Why didn't you notice her pain?" Simply.... people would rather walk on by someones else cries for help and then face it. Keep up the good work |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
I'm sorry, Trisha, but there is a little word you are ignoring here: GUIDELINES. I guess I am going to have to mindlessly repeat myself here: Part of Ron's policy is that poems which include the glorification and romanticism of suicide and/or offer suicide as a valid option to life's problems ARE UNACCEPTABLE. Now you can sit here and quibble over whether this poem meets that criteria all you want. The fact is - that decision was made previously in the moderator's forum. If I had moderating powers in this forum the poem wouldn't remain here. Kamla |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
I do have the authority, though I hate to use it, but I feel the poem is definitely against the guidelines so I deleted it. Please read the guidelines if you have any questions. |
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Trisha4_u Junior Member
since 2000-06-13
Posts 28 |
Severn...Thank you but I have ignored nothing. Okay so as the guidelines state...then why was a Very GOOD poem allowed to remain that told the tale of a young man in the middle of the VN war, who found himself in a situation where he had to befriend the enemy by sharing water and rations ....only to be forced to kill him later? Isn't the glorifying Death? |
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Elizabeth
Moderator
Member Ascendant
since 1999-06-07
Posts 6871Minnesota |
Trisha, would you mind providing a link to the poem you mentioned so others can view it? I would like to see it. |
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Trisha4_u Junior Member
since 2000-06-13
Posts 28 |
Which one Elizabeth...Jeremys or the one about The young soldier in VN? |
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Elizabeth
Moderator
Member Ascendant
since 1999-06-07
Posts 6871Minnesota |
The Vietnam one....I read Jeremy's already. |
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Trisha4_u Junior Member
since 2000-06-13
Posts 28 |
It is a very good poem by Hard Rock in Dark Passions 2 dated 7-18-00 on page 95. When i read this one last year it brought tears to my eyes. My BL did his 2 tours in VN in the thick of it all. There are many poems that talk of death... if you start at page 129 and read forth..well! So if the Guildline are that specific...I should think alot of the poems posted should be Deleted!!!! |
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Trisha4_u Junior Member
since 2000-06-13
Posts 28 |
On that note! I've said my piece. The powers that be might want to re-think a few things or choose to continue to ingore the obvious! Yes...I have had my finger on the delete button in a forum/club before. No... it isn't an easy reponsiblity to have, because no matter what you do some is upset at your choices. Then on the other hand, some enjoy the power trip and control! Hasta Trisha |
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Elizabeth
Moderator
Member Ascendant
since 1999-06-07
Posts 6871Minnesota |
Thanks for letting me know about it, Trisha. I read it and agree with you that it was very well written. If anyone else cares to look at it they can check here. /pip/Forum35/HTML/000879.html I don't think that Hardrock's poem, as you put it, "glorifies death." The situations described in his poem and Jeremy's poem are not the same. I've never been to war, but I can say with some certainty that in a case like that, you need to look out for yourself. Also, Hardrock's poem clearly describes the regret he feels at needing to kill the other man. The message in it is not, "Killing is a great way to solve your problems!", but rather about the horrors of war. I also want to point out that the first person who replied to Hardrock's poem was Poet deVine, an Administrator, who has been here since the beginning of Passions, and has always made good judgment calls. Oftentimes when a Moderator is considering deleting a poem, we ask the other Moderators and Administrators to review it and give their opinions. If something was inappropriate, she would most likely agree. I know that anyone who is suicidal is in despair and needs to be heard, needs people to care, needs an outlet. However, therapy is often the best thing for them. We at Passions care about each and every member here, but we are not counselors or psychiatrists. And our guidelines need to be followed-by everyone, whether they are depressed or not. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I am very confused here. What does another poem have to do with the one Firejerm posted? Firejerm has decided not to discuss his poem in private with me -- this shows me that he is not interested in the poem. He then contradicts his own argument. It may mean a lot to him but it means little to me. He argued interpretation and now he argues truth? The arrogance of what he said boggles the mind and shows no understanding of language, of his own poem, nor of Passions. What are people trying to say? Please be clearer if you wish to make a statement from now on. Brad |
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Elizabeth
Moderator
Member Ascendant
since 1999-06-07
Posts 6871Minnesota |
Brad, on page 2 of this thread, Trisha started talking about a poem in Dark Passions that was about the Vietnam War, and said, "Isn't this glorifying death? Why is this poem allowed to stay and Firejerm's wasn't?" (that's not verbatim) I asked her for the link and she told me where to look, I read it and gave my opinion about it. |
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DancinQueen
since 2000-07-29
Posts 1092Kokomo,IN,USA |
i think its as simple as this: if you dont like the rules you can leave~ and dont let the door hit you on your way out u can complain all you want, but 99% of the members here obviously dont have a problem with following hte rules and guidlines. if you have a problem im sure there's a different poetry forum site just waiting for you in internet land. let your journey begin *dq ¤Sometimes the hardest thing to get over, is something you never really had¤ |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
I don't feel I have to defend my opinion of either poem. Hardrocks was difficult to read as it was difficult to live through. But it never glorified the taking of a life... |
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firejerm Member
since 2000-06-13
Posts 217Springfield, OH, good ol USA |
I think you are all hypocrites and are totally full of (edited by Alicat), Brad, you have never once approached me directly, and I say directly..I have email, icq, etc, about discussing my poem...I am more than willing. Somewhere along the line, many have "glorified death"...don't see why you are all so threatened by me, but it's interesting that those who have not read, keep replying about "guidlines". When you know not the subject matter. Maybe I should write about many of the cardiac arrests, trauma arrests, and violent deaths I've been on as a paramedic, or the fatalities I've been on as a firefighter, it would be the same as someone speaking of a war experience. You all make me tired (edited by Alicat). And yes, slice it anyway you want to, but I have been singled out. "Those little slices of death, how I loathe them." -Edgar Allen Poe Note: Firejerm, profanity, even when caught by the filter, is not permissable nor allowed as per forum and site guidelines. Thank you. --Alicat, Alley Moderator [This message has been edited by Alicat (edited 03-02-2001).] |
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Irie Senior Member
since 1999-12-01
Posts 1493Washington State |
Firejerm.... I noticed you said you could be contacted by E mail, Icq etc. But it doesn't seem that you have your email published in your profile. So, I'll ask you here.... Could you please email me the poem in question. I have not read it and would like a chance to do so. Thanks ~Sheri "The things that come to those that wait may be the things left by those who got there first" |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
"If hell does exist, it is here and it is now. I hope certainly the character in this poem isn't one who constantly complains and cries about the situation she's in and yet stays, aggravating her freinds...stupidity gives way to stubborness after a while. Sad, but good write!" Jeremy My dear friend, those were YOUR words, in response to one of my poems. Now, yes, I thought you missed the mark, and yes, I did think that you did not think. But I granted YOU, the entitlement of your opinion, even after it was obviously stated that this was a poem by me from a very personal perspective. To insinuate that all who agree with the administrators of PIP are hypocrites, and "butt" kissers--is to belittle our own opinions...There is nothing to agree upon. THE guidelines were decided by THE OWNER OF THIS FORUM, who welcomed you here, with the understanding that you would follow those guidelines. Now, I suggest, that if you disagree with how those guidelines are carried out, then become more active...so far? I have only seen you as reactive...and? this is not a personal attack---I DO NOT KNOW YOU. Nor do I consider this name calling. I simply feel this has gone on far enough. It was one poem. I trust you have more. Write them and post in peace, my friend. I too, write "extreme" poetry, and post in forums which welcome more extreme form. But in the meantime? (and I'm working hard on behaving... ) I understand, that when you enter someone's home? If the custom is to remove your shoes at the door? Then leave yer boots there.After all, Ron pays the rent. |
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fractal007 Senior Member
since 2000-06-01
Posts 1958 |
All: I've just been reading some of the responses in this thread. I agree somewhat that poetry that discusses suicide might be okay to include. However, this might be stretching things a little. For example, who's to say what is and is not an appropriate way to discuss suicide in a poem. In my humble opinion, a poem which discussed one's grief over a friend who'd been lost to suicide would not be inappropriate. I mean, I don't interpret the guidelines that way. However, if this poem said something to the effect of "good riddence" or "you did the right thing" then it would definitely be inappropriate. I don't mean to sound like an idealist or foolish romantic, but I have come to regard these forums as the Camelot of the internet. Everyone does things according to a set of moral guidelines[or at least I think they're moral]. I can have a discussion about some philosophical topic[take the discussion I had with a bunch of people about current mentalities regarding suicide as an example] and people will respect each other. If they don't agree then they'll say why in a civilized manner. I can go to someplace else, like a Yahoo club for example, and have the same discussion. However, chances are that it will be a discussion[assuming it's on one of the more open Yahoo clubs with tonnes of members] that a two year old could probably have a good chance of raising some interesting points. Why? Because half the people there will be sitting around crabbing about each other's characters and flaming each other. "If history is to change, let it change. If the world is to be destroyed, so be it. If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh" -- Magus |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I'm sorry that I misunderstood what I wrote. I asked you to e-mail me; I didn't realize that meant I should e-mail you. I have now done so. Brad |
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Trisha4_u Junior Member
since 2000-06-13
Posts 28 |
Elizabeth did you some of the other poems listed? Forgive me if i kill you. 6/21/00 The glock 6-23-00 The Gift of Death 6-14-00 pages 123-129 Bloodstain Talk of Death pg 121. This is were i stopped afer i found the poem War Is Waiting. |
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Trisha4_u Junior Member
since 2000-06-13
Posts 28 |
(shakes head) Some just don't get it Jeremy. Your poem was a voice ..of anothers Cry for HELP that went un-answered *a gift that you have* from seeing so much in such a short time. Be grateful for this gift. "Death i fear not!! What i fear is the blindness of others in life!" Folks as the saying goes.(edited by Nan) [This message has been edited by Nan (edited 03-02-2001).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Trisha? we get it...but it's not the point. You are busy defending j's free speech and completely ignoring Ron's right to decide the direction of HIS forum. NOW? somebody please...it's late or early depending on your sleep viewpoint...but explain to me...please? where is the deciding slant? where then, is a line drawn? Who's final responsibility is it? If not Ron's? Why are we still arguing this bogus crap? And jeremy? You know, this is not a personal affront to you...I've already talked to you about this, and will again,if ya like. I think you are a lovely thoughtful person. But? I have a home. And? I fight like a tiger to keep people from messing it up, BECAUSE I am ALMOST as crazy as Ron about inviting people over to stay. NOW SOMEBODY SUM THIS ALL UP? Or? I will be forced to go to Ron's (okay, not technically Ron's but couldn't resist the grin) reading list for gawd help me...entertainment...yukyukyuk...but hey? I do recommend anything by William Styron. Oh yes...and Trish? I loved your final comment, and understand, please, that this is directed at me as well--- "a" holes are indeed like opinions, in that everyone has one---but? unlike opinions? "a" holes are USEFUL.  [This message has been edited by serenity (edited 03-02-2001).] |
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Kit McCallum
Administrator
Member Laureate
since 2000-04-30
Posts 14774Ontario, Canada |
You know … I've been following this thread all along, and am just shaking my head here at some of the comments I've read. I don't often respond directly in these types of threads, and am not going to address the specific poem in question, but rather, suicidal content posts "in general". I am an adult moderator in the Teen Forum, and though we have the largest share of these types of issues in this entire set of Forums, I can honestly say I have never had a similar issue continued, argued or the need to be defended to this length. These decisions are NEVER taken lightly. Most Teen members are incredibly understanding and even gracious in their response to this type of situation. They are made aware that no "one" individual made the decision, that a consensus was reached by a number of level-headed individuals, each with their own opinions and thoughts on life. I have personally "agonized" (yes, I said agonized) over the health and welfare of both authors and readers regarding suicidal content posts. I have contacted members to see if they are OK, corresponded with those genuinely depressed, and been so incredibly relieved when met with a kind and understanding response saying that they were OK and weren't aware that 9 years olds visit this site and may actually be influenced by what they read. To reference some posts that "may have slipped through the cracks" is irrelevant in my opinion. Some have slipped through the cracks in Teen as well … we are not perfect and may not catch every single instance. We are volunteers, and do the best job we possibly can to keep Passions a friendly, safe family-oriented site for our readers. Members using good judgment in posting, carry as much responsibility and weight as the Moderating Team. In my opinion, we are here for the same reasons everyone is … to read and enjoy poetry, not to argue and defend each little word, interpretation or judgment call that was responsibly made according to our understanding of the Guidelines. I for one, am grateful, and respect the guidelines and the varied group of individuals that assist in interpreting these guidelines that make this site a place we can all share in, and be proud enough to share with even the younger members of our families and friends. There are many other sites that do "not" care about that aspect, and that's precisely why I am "here" and not "there". |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
Serenity - I think you've summed up the matter quite nicely... I do have this to say - Anyone who becomes a moderator on this site MUST be willing to maintain Ron's standards of posting. Ron's personality clearly shines on these pages... He's brilliant, fair, kind, and humble - Quite a combination, isn't it? I don't think the words "power" and "control" are in his dictionary. The wonderful people who help by moderating here are similar - I've never felt a hint of anyone on a "power trip" here - and I haven't missed a single day since the inception of this wonderful place... As for "singling out"... Jeremy YOU have personally singled yourself out. No one did that for you. It's a combination of your own actions and your own attitude that have done it. It's also your own attitude that will determine your future here. You can make yourself comfortable and adhere to the guidelines, or you can continue to defy them. It's your choice. It'll be a whole lot less work for all of us if you play nicely... But we're quite prepared for you, whichever path you choose. I personally hope you opt to play nicely. We want everyone to be productive and contented members here at Passions. Nancy |
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Acies
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 2000-06-07
Posts 7665Twilight Zone |
I am totally sick of seeing this topic even come up to the top again. 1. I think we should close this topic: This is no longer a discussion, but more of an arguement. Because all the words that's being dished by the author are nothing but blame with the inclusion of profanity, I submit that this thread be closed for that reason alone. I feel that this thread being allowed to go on only feeds to this person's inconsiderate attitude. 2. I agree with Kit I agree with Kit when she said that bringing up topics that have slipped or been allowed before(as assumed) shouldn't be brought up for it definitely is not part of the issue here. And if you want a bettre understanding of this arguement, I recommend that you go read her reply. 3. The members in teen act better than this This thread has actually made me proud of the members of the teen forum. When a topic like this arises, it seems like they have acted in a more mature manner, they have shown more consideration and understanding, and they have most definitely been more behaved than this. Now, it makes me proud to be moderating the teen forum. They may be young in age, but when it comes to discussions of serious matters, they act more mature. ------------------------------------------------- And yes firejerm, you have been singled out. But the thing is, you did it yourself. I just do not understand why some people cannot understand that we have, to say the least, 9 yr olds that come and read our poems in pip. They're understanding of poems could be totally different than that of any adult. "So long as men can breathe or eyes can see, So long lives this, and this give life to thee." W.S. [This message has been edited by acire (edited 03-02-2001).] |
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firejerm Member
since 2000-06-13
Posts 217Springfield, OH, good ol USA |
*yawn* You know I let you all just keep talking for weeks about this. I was willing to let this rest until last night, but you all still keep pressing it. It's done, over with, you all got your way so be happy. ...and if 9 year olds are coming in to read this forum, they should be blocked. Not just because of what I write, but what others submit as well. That indeed should be against the "guidelines". You also don't have to worry about seeing me in Passions any more, so once again, BE HAPPY. My writing will be appreciated elsewhere, where it won't be constantly scruitenized. So keep on talking if you like, but it phases me not. Perhaps you are saying good riddens to bad rubbish, so be it...but I'll continue to "Talk Hard" Jeremy "Those little slices of death, how I loathe them." -Edgar Allen Poe |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
We seem to have come full circle. Firejerm's topic started with insults and ended in insults. There is little left to discuss. He was gone for 2 weeks, if you check the posting dates, and I didn't miss him a bit. I had foolishly assumed that he had let the matter drop and had resumed posting poetry. Seems I was mistaken. And Trisha, if you wish to discuss loopholes, I can look back to your first post, which was actually Firejerm's. Posting someone else's work is against guidelines, even with their permission. This was done to circumvent the posting limit, as Firejerm's reply to such said. FYI, this post can be found here. But I digress. This thread is now closed, to be opened under review by either myself, or one of the site administrators. For those who missed this forum's guidelines, I will repost them here: quote: Normally, I do try to communicate with the writer if an offense is found. However, this courtesy was waived earlier in this thread, if you care to go back and really read. Should you have any questions, feel free to email me at alicat23@visto.com or ICQ at 29300778. Keep in mind that any and all correspondence may or may not be shared with other moderators, so keep it clean. Alicat Alley Moderator [This message has been edited by Alicat (edited 03-02-2001).] |
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