»
Archives
»
Open Poetry #31
»
Thawing [haiku]
| Open Poetry #31 |
|
Thawing [haiku] |
|
|
choshi Senior Member
since 2004-01-01
Posts 1184New York |
Dear friends, I deeply appreciate your kind thoughts and ongoing responsivity. I have revised the following as I believe it has too many images and thus confuses the intent: Rain swollen; the song of the rushing stream pierces bare mountains. To: Thawing; the song of the rushing stream pierces cold mountains. |
||
| © Copyright 2004 Paul C. Cooper - All Rights Reserved | |||
|
Seymour Tabin Member Empyrean
since 1999-07-07
Posts 31720Tamarac Fla |
choshi I like, well done. |
||
|
Ludo Junior Member
since 2004-01-29
Posts 23 |
I love this. The imagery and coldness; which you convey so perfectly, is amazing. |
||
|
McLean Member
since 2004-01-05
Posts 484state of marital bliss |
Choshi~ In reading the first version, I really enjoyed, but confess that the second version seems much more strong and precise in effect. You are a wonderous poet, my friend! McLean |
||
muted
since 2004-01-15
Posts 2949Elapsing, Eclipsing, Evolving |
i like this version as well..but... you exchanged "bare" for "cold".... both can convey literal winter/cold, exposure/vulnerability.... i was more partial to "bare" because it left a "human quality" to the mountains in my opinion...like the loss of the leaves of the trees on the mountain left it bare/vulnerable/cold/exposed... i just thought it was a richer description using "bare". also changing "river swollen" to "thawing" just seems to drop some of the images to me... "river swollen" envokes images of "being larger than oneself", or "pregnancy"...things like that..and its a lovely thought imagining a river carrying life (pregnancy) to a bare (vulnerable,exposed) mountain...a rush of new life replenishing the mountains lush cover for spring... ok, so im rambling, i just prefered the old one to the revised one (but i am not a critic, i do not know much about haiku, i just like reading it).  somethings are meant to be left the way they began, regardless of form. but still, always a pretty scene Paul  ~Dawn |
||
|
choshi Senior Member
since 2004-01-01
Posts 1184New York |
Thank you McLean, I believe the strength that you feel is because this version is truer to the actual experience...~P |
||
|
choshi Senior Member
since 2004-01-01
Posts 1184New York |
love this. The imagery and coldness; which you convey so perfectly, is amazing... Thank you Ludo, it is nice to be meeting you welcome.... |
||
|
choshi Senior Member
since 2004-01-01
Posts 1184New York |
I like, well done. Thanks Sy, very much appreciated |
||
|
choshi Senior Member
since 2004-01-01
Posts 1184New York |
i like this version as well..but... Dawn wrote: i just thought it was a richer description using "bare". also changing "river swollen" to "thawing" just seems to drop some of the images to me..., or "pregnancy"...things like that..and its a lovely thought imagining a river carrying life (pregnancy) to a bare (vulnerable,exposed) mountain...a rush of new life replenishing the mountains lush cover for spring... ~Dawn, I am deeply touched and inspired by your extensive and deeply sensitive critique and observations. They are more than appreciated. Thank you for your time and thoughtfulness. I agree with much you are saying. Especially: "...."river swollen" envokes images of "being larger than oneself"..." Also: "bare" for "cold".... Yes exactly! I wanted to strip the hunman quality...the cold and freeze has been so long, deep and intense up here along the Hudson. But there is a richness in the first version missing here. Very productive dialog [for me]  ~Paul |
||
|
Krawdad Member Elite
since 2001-01-03
Posts 2597 |
Forms have rules, in spite of what some here may contend. And while breaking some rules falls within the poetic norm, one cannot break them all, at once. So, let's look at a couple of rules. I think we can dismiss the 5,7,5 count, as that has never translated well into english (though I habitually strive for it anyway). The seasonal reference is not well established in your first version (negative points). It could be raining in any season. In your second version, you double the reference, unnecessarily (thawing and cold). Your first version can be read smoothly, like a sentence (more negative points). Better to have a two-part, or split, or counterpoint, or focus-background observation as you do in the second version (PLUS points). On the whole, your second version is a better haiku, in my opinion. I do wonder, however, about "pierces cold mountains". A song can be piercing and cold can be piercing. I'm not sure what you are seeing or hearing or feeling with this line. Another version comes to mind: Thawing Songs of rushing streams echo through mountains. (hope this helps) Kraw' |
||
|
muted
since 2004-01-15
Posts 2949Elapsing, Eclipsing, Evolving |
listen to Krawdad, cause thats someone who knows what they are talking about!my few words were very much "an un-educated guess"! looks like me and google going to be doing a bit of "study"...LOL |
||
|
choshi Senior Member
since 2004-01-01
Posts 1184New York |
Hi Kraw, Nice to be meeting you. Thank you for your extensive and informed comments. They are most appreciated...Let's go through them together: "Forms have rules, in spite of what some here may contend...." Agreed and I feel that a failure to adhere to minimal rules has been a diservice to the intention of traditional haiku of which I am a stumbling student...
Yes!, and like you say, we can strive... The seasonal reference is not well established in your first version (negative points). Yes! That sent me running back to the drawing board !!! In your second version, you double the reference, unnecessarily (thawing and cold). True. However, thawing and cold have very different connotations. On the other hand, while not appropriate to pure haiku, a little conceit "ups the stakes" a bit. The cold here has been extremely intense and feels truer to the experience...I could w/ some time, which I won't, share doubles and even tripples in Buson, Issa and Basho... Your first version can be read smoothly, like a sentence (more negative points). Yes!!! Agreed. Thank you for pointing that out. I didn't even notice till now... Better to have a two-part, or split, or counterpoint, or focus-background observation as you do in the second version (PLUS points). I very much appreciate the subtlty of this observation and usually strive for two parts: Location and Action... "On the whole, your second version is a better haiku, in my opinion." Thank you, my friend. It's nice to feel that a re-write was worth the effort... "I do wonder, however, about "pierces cold mountains". A song can be piercing and cold can be piercing. I'm not sure what you are seeing or hearing or feeling with this line." Simply put, it felt good to say that...Of course, that is a bit too poetic for haiku, but, what the heck! I was needing to "break out" a bit having spent some time in a very repressive writing envoronment where no "rule-breaking" was permitted. Its very refreshing to be here in a more open and supportive environment and feel rescued from "haiku facism" Another version comes to mind: Thawing Nice! If we take our "pierce" I think we should also take out "song" Purely speaking streams don't sing...Also, I have truble w/ unpunctuated haiku, but that discussion will have to wait for another time. I am hungry now ...Once again, it is a pleasure to meet you Kraw....Choshi(hope this helps) Kraw' |
||
|
choshi Senior Member
since 2004-01-01
Posts 1184New York |
my few words were very much "an un-educated guess"! Educated or Un-educated, your sensitivites are keen and your comments come from the heart and are right on target! ...and I can see that Krawdad indeed knows his stuff ~P |
||
|
passing shadows Member Empyrean
since 1999-08-26
Posts 45577displaced |
both are great! |
||
|
Pilgrimage Member Elite
since 2001-12-04
Posts 3945Texas, USA |
Choshi, I do love the scenes you paint. Nan (Pilgrim variety) |
||
|
misao Member
since 2003-11-08
Posts 50 |
I love haikus! And this one I enjoyed Everybody loves a good japanese haiku!!  |
||
Mistletoe Angel 
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
 (smiles) Yay! I love it both ways, sweet friend, both show the serenity and smmoth course of nature which you so gracefully describe, God Bless You, we all love you so much! You have such a beautiful heart, sweet Paul, thank you for sharing! May love and light always shine upon you! Love, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you |
||
|
choshi Senior Member
since 2004-01-01
Posts 1184New York |
both are great! Dixie, you are just so very sweet ~P |
||
|
choshi Senior Member
since 2004-01-01
Posts 1184New York |
Choshi, I do love the scenes you paint. Thank you Nan... |
||
|
choshi Senior Member
since 2004-01-01
Posts 1184New York |
I love haikus! And this one I enjoyed Everybody loves a good japanese haiku!! Thank you Misao, good to be meeting you |
||
|
choshi Senior Member
since 2004-01-01
Posts 1184New York |
both show the serenity and smmoth course of nature Thank you Noah. You are so very warm and kind in your comments |
||
|
|
⇧ top of page ⇧ |
|
| All times are ET (US). All dates are in Year-Month-Day format. | ||
