»
Discussion
»
Philosophy 101
»
Death
| Philosophy 101 |
|
Death |
|
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Because I could not stop for Death --Emily Dickinson quote: I don't know if I'll have the time to get into this, but I can, I think, summarize my points easily enough: 1. Death comes. We have no power over death. 2. Coming to terms with Death is extremely difficult. It is impossible to imagine one's own death. 3. There are three figures in the above marriage: the Poet, Death, and Immortality 4. To marry Death is not to die, to die is to be Death's food. 5. Read the last stanza again. It is now over a century since E.D.'s death. She still speaks to us. |
||
| © Copyright 2008 Brad - All Rights Reserved | |||
|
serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
She's just my muse, is all... Death. I really do believe, that I said once before, that we lost something when we started trying to "tidy" it up. Tending to your dead loved ones was once a sacramental rite. After a little experience with it and a lot of thought, I think that's so. And I can't go without saying something about that Six Feet Under series. Because when Nate dies, and his brother washes his body, it's a beautiful scene, and I was very moved at how tenderly Anthony Michael Hall played that... I love this poem because Death is not the boogeyman. |
||
|
Seoulair Senior Member
since 2008-03-27
Posts 807Seoul S.Korea |
Brad, I made sure that this was the forum of Philosophy 101, not CA. The Carriage somehow gave me the image of Large Bomb. |
||
Falling rain
since 2008-01-31
Posts 2178Small town, Illinois |
hmm the last stanza is just prolly a councidence. But yes ther are some truth in this poem. XxZachXx |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
I tend to agree with Peter Kreeft's statement that unless one sees death as enemy, there is no entitlement to see death as friend or lover. It would be premature. That's because it is not death that is on trial, but ourselves. And death is just a veiled form of someone else anyway. The rider on a pale horse is just the broken image of a rider on a white horse. Stephen |
||
|
Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Circa 1850 a piece of land became available between the cities of Cambridge and Watertown, Massachusetts. The entire culture of England and The United States was preoccupied with thoughts of death, and had been for much of the past hundred years. One of the Giant bestsellers of the era, going through hundreds of printings and re-printings was a book of several hundred pages length most people today have never heard of. It was called Night Thoughts, by Edward Young, and it was a poem. But "Elegy in A Country Churchyard" touches on some of the same concerns in a more highly condensed and less morbid fashion. William Cullen Bryant is an American contributor to the same literature. Given the nature of the cultural climate, a quarrel broke out between partisans in either city for how to use the land. One group wanted to turn the area into a park; the other group wanted to turn the area into a graveyard. In the end, a compromise was reached, and Mount Auburn Cemetery was designed and landscaped. Even now, 150 years later, it's a place of haunting, extraordinary beauty in a clearly Victorian style. The Belle of Amherst, very much a creature of her time, would likely have images such as those in Mount Auburn Cemetery in her head, the round bellied horses, the well appointed carriage, and the rows of crypts set into the edge of a well proportioned oval mound, the edges of the cornices just visible from the evenly trimmed grass lawn that covered the top. Boston has buried Longfellow here. Mary Baker Eddy is in her own tomb. Boston being a town of apocryphal stories, it delights in confiding that Ms Eddy's tomb is connected by telegraph to the offices of the editor of The Christian Science Monitor. Some say telephone, and that he is to be the first to know the good news when she wakens. The story is of course untrue. The Cemetery is worth a visit, though, if you're in the area and you know something about the history. And in many ways it's a living reminder, such as is today more and more difficult to come by, of the working consciousness of a period in American literary life. It's a peek into the collective unconscious of the American psyche of the time. It reminds you that even the notion of death changes over a reasonably short period of time from one thing to another. That death to Emily Dickinson may have been a bit of a different thing than it was to Wilfred Owen, even fifty years later, when machine guns and mustard gas were making death an almost industrial process. It seems more and more difficult to separate out the actual fact of death itself from the thoughts and feelings we seem to have built up around it. I say this because I notice I've been responding to a thread about The Right to Die, and Death and Emily seem to be such a perfect pairing. Ham and eggs, strawberries and cream, Death and Emily. |
||
|
serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I've made my plans.  I'm gonna be a tree. A Serenetree or a Poetree? It doesn't much matter to me. I just don't want anyone to be able to say I was a waste of oxygen.  |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Bob, I wonder if we're reading the same article. It's in "Radiant Lyre" edited by David Baker. The other poem that is used to present, in my opinion, a rather weak thesis is Whitman: quote: At any rate, it seems your thoughts are echoed in another poet. |
||
|
Seoulair Senior Member
since 2008-03-27
Posts 807Seoul S.Korea |
Physical Death is the reality. History (oral, picture, paintings, words, architectures) of value to human beings do live as certain time and in certain group of people. I can't say that it would be eternity because take Emily as an example, half world population may not know her at all as live or death. Unless you preach her poems as someone else preaches Bible. quote: Here you mean physical death. quote: This, some or a lot think like this. it does sometimes depend on your religious system. quote: This is poetic talking about death. (concept of death changed) quote: Here, again, death meant physical death but to die meant something else. one may say anything in poetry but can't always make it practically logical at the same time. quote: You are absolutely right. Her words talks, and always to the listening ears. To make those death worth of living in eternity, is the burden of lover's love and worthy, patient teaching. |
||
|
nakdthoughts Member Laureate
since 2000-10-29
Posts 19200Between the Lines |
First, I love Emily Dickinson~~ "Death comes. We have no power over death" I am not so sure about having no control, maybe not over the exact moment. As I prepare to go to my favorite Aunt's funeral this morning, she had the ability to pull out all the tubes and the ventilator on Wednesday and wished to be sent home to die rather than prolong it. She was taken home Thursday afternoon where we were able to spend her last hours with her although by then she couldn't respond to any of us, though the hospice nurse said she probably could hear us. She passed away shortly after midnight into Friday morning...she chose to die sooner than later and on her own terms. M |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
My great-grandfather knew exact place, date and time of his death to be five years before it happened. The judge told him... |
||
|
Seoulair Senior Member
since 2008-03-27
Posts 807Seoul S.Korea |
quote: I heard before that one should not judge dead people. Obviously he is still living in your heart. So do you want to share some stories of his life? Balladeer? |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Well, I still don't really have time to get into this, but I said: quote: nadthoughts: quote: I just don't see how this is power over death. Isn't it simply the acceptance of death's power? Mike said: quote: I don't see prediction as a form of power. Changing what was predicted might be, but then of course you have a false prediction. Do you see the dilemma? But doesn't saying one does have power over death sound hollow? It does to me. Hmmm, Karen thinks I should try to be clearer so let me try this scenario on you guys. You know that the sun will rise tomorrow at 5:41. Does that give you power over the sun? You know that the sun will rise at some time this weekend so you go to the beach to watch the sun rise from the ocean. Does that give you power over the sun? Oh, I almost forgot, you live in California. |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Wouldn't resurrection indicate power over death? |
||
|
Seoulair Senior Member
since 2008-03-27
Posts 807Seoul S.Korea |
Stephen, That along would scare our Sir Brad to death.  |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Well, I guess so, but I'm not sure where you wanna go with that. God aside (I wasn't including the Almighty in that 'we'-- only humans), are you thinking of something like the teleport thought question? |
||
|
Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Death itself has power over itself, for it eventually evolves into life again. |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I'm sorry Ess, you've lost me there. That death has power over death is a tautology. That it/he/she evolves into life means it's no longer death. Is it so difficult to accept? Am I using the wrong words? Am I making a mistake here? And so it goes. |
||
|
Seoulair Senior Member
since 2008-03-27
Posts 807Seoul S.Korea |
I think Sir Essorant was talking cosmologically. Not physically or biologically. That...then... the death dose not exist at all. And Sir Brad, Your poem will be talked forever. So spent time on that, sir!!! |
||
|
Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Exactly, death defeats itself by becoming life. |
||
|
Seoulair Senior Member
since 2008-03-27
Posts 807Seoul S.Korea |
quote: No. We have no power over the sun or the turning of the earth. But we have power to hide from it. As for "power over death", you know you made a smart statement and you prepared lot to say but have no time. What is exactly "power over death"? since you said She still speaks to us then you must wait for me to say, "it is the poem." Our power over death is through poem.(or other writing). But then you would say " she is physically dead. isn't she? so poem can not make her live forever." Power over physical death by my understanding can be 1. to make death happen...the war 2. to stop death happen...those frozen body in NO Tank ( or to stop a car) 3. To make death go slow 4. to make death go faster 5. To make death disappear at all....No way to do it and this is what you meant, right? or, when you have time, explain your "power over death". |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I really wish I could admire her as a poet but I just can't. Her near-rhymes grate on me... away - civility chill - Tulle day - eternity in one stanza she rhymes ground with ground and in another abandons any attempt at rhyme or even near rhyme at all.. ring - sun She gives the impression that she rhymes whenever it's easy for her, near rhymes when she doesn't have the desire to put in any extra effort to make rhyming words match, and forgets rhyme altogether whenever she wants to say something without putting in any effort to rhyme at all.......and she mixes all of these techniques in the same poem. I realize it is considered sacreligious to knock the "masters" but i simply can't respect this lack of professionalism. |
||
|
Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Balladeer, Where I grew up, in Ohio, it wasn't uncommon for folks to pronounce "tulle" the same way they pronounced that other fabric, "twill." I've been in a couple of other places where the pronunciation was the same way. You might also consider that Miss Dickinson wrote these poems specifically to please herself and not an audience. She did apparently publish 12 poems during her lifetime in a local magazine, and she was in many ways interested in publication, but these poems she never made any attempt to see into print. You may criticize her for not playing by team rules, but she wasn't playing the team game. She was playing solitaire. It was other folks who came along after her death who decided to make a big deal out of her. Your quarrel should be with them and not her. Heck, the first versions of the poems of hers they published weren't even well edited versions of the poems in the first place. They were "corrected." E.D. couldn't care less about what either of us think about her. I find some of her stuff a bit slow, personally, but don't mind the half-rhymes or the somewhat churchy Hymn-like stanzas. She seems to be making a point of playing-off the formal and exact rhymes because the things she was saying were in that same way a bit off-kilter and didn't fit into the strictly ordered world of that particular rhyme scheme or stanza format, an the skewing is a pretty effective way of showing that. As is her refusal to insist on clear subordination of themes, which she indicates by her use of dashes rather than standard punctuation. For people who insist that the world must be presented in only a limited way for it to be real or recognizable, she can be very difficult. You, Balladeer, have a wonderful sense of how things ought to be, and it serves you very well in many ways. It gives you a firm sense of what is right and what isn't, and what's good and what's bad, and that's been useful for you for a long time. It's been good for your character. E.D. has very little overlap with that point of view. I think you first rush of upset is at the craft of the stuff, but I wouldn't be surprised if your antipathy ran deeper. I'm not saying mine does as well, but I'm saying that it seems understandable. I'd be curious to know if it's only the craft that bothers you, or if it's her world-view as well. As a by the way sort of thing, I stumbled on a book on craft that you might like to check out if you haven't seen it already. It's a much more traditional look at stuff than Hugo and is more concerned with metrics and the sort of stuff you enjoy playing with, and it seems rock-solid as far as I remember from my occasional studies. This one's called The Ode Less Travelled by Stephen Fry, the English actor. A lot of fun. Best From BobK. |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Honestly, I'm not quite sure what to say. My guess, like the sun, is that when I say you/we/I have no power over Death, you hear you have no power and that disturbs you. quote: In a war, don't you do death's bidding? The point is to kill or be killed, either way death wins. quote: I suppose that's how the action is justified, but I'm not sure how this gives you power over death, you're frozen. quote: How does death comes slowly in a plane crash? quote: Assisted suicide? Again, such acts are in Death's service. You haven't been given power, you are giving power away. quote: Sure, but all of the above assumes that we have more control over something that can come at anytime, at any place, in any form. I don't know, perhaps we have to personify Death as a means of dealing with it (the poem), but everytime we talk about controlling death we pretend to have knowledge that we can't have. This foreknowlege is either right and can't be changed or wrong. Either way it means no power. That's why we have the second part: Death comes. Still, I don't see how this excludes hope. Mike, Ten years ago, I would have agreed with you. I don't think she comes through very well in anthologies. Reading a collection of her poems however does kind of 'open' her. On the technical side, she is still very conservative as far as I can tell. I don't know if this is true, I haven't read every poem she wrote, but it has been said that all her poetry can be sung to 'Amazing Grace'. |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
BobK, you are very right that, if she were around, she would care less of my opinion...nor should she. She is an icon and I am a nobody...and I don't mean that with any kind of sarcasm or ill feelings. Fortunately, we are all entitled to have our opinions and express them and I have done so, without rancor I hope. No, my "complaint" is with her erratic use of form only. I have admired her thoughts and views in many poems...this one, for example. The thought of not having time for Death and having Death stop by is a brilliant concept for a poem. Her imagination and word usage has my appreciation....her variations of ignoring structured poetry basic rules do not. For poets who do not want to be bound by rules or structure, that's why we have free verse. Combining the two in a haphazard way grates on me.....but that's just me. |
||
|
Seoulair Senior Member
since 2008-03-27
Posts 807Seoul S.Korea |
quote: I almost posted a comment on Sir Balladeer two hours ago about His( see the capital H)issue with free verse crossed over to E.D. Now he said it himself. Will you please loudly criticize those live ones and leave the dead ones alone. have you realized that she had no chance to rewrite and revise them? Be nice!  |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
LOL! As I said, sir, she has nothing to fear from me. She is an accomplished poet who has been read and loved by millions. I am but a pigeon perched on the statue of her reputation. I will not even criticize her methods, outside of saying they are simply not my cup of tea. |
||
|
Seoulair Senior Member
since 2008-03-27
Posts 807Seoul S.Korea |
quote: Stephen has given you the answer but you don't believe it. So, you believe that human has no power over death. Right? quote: My, you are too soft spirited on yourself. You simply wanted to dig her out and to teach her Iambic pentameter  |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Stephan has given no answer. He simply stated his views. I have discussed nothing concerning the point or meaning of the poem. I simply spoke of the construction of it. |
||
|
oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Bah, humbug. Or hubris. We don't have power over doodly-squat. And the things we do have power over are doodly squat. When you're hot, you're hot. When you're not, you're dead. Ain't much more than that to it, except for the fairy tales. Ducking, Jimbeaux |
||
|
Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
If one makes healthier choices and therefore lives longer I think that is living power over life and death. It is not enough power to live forever, but it is often enough to live longer |
||
|
Seoulair Senior Member
since 2008-03-27
Posts 807Seoul S.Korea |
Agree with Sir Essorant Vaccine, antibiotics, blood transfusion, organ-transplant, and all the modern medical equipment do prevent certain factor caused death. The POWER |
||
|
Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
No Balladeer, I wasn't talking about her reputation compared to yours. When E.D. died, her reputation was considerably smaller than yours and she had no reason to thing it would be revised upward. She knew the stuff that people were writing at the time and wrote back and forth with the editor of The Atlantic a few times in that more congenial era. If memory serves. She knew that she had not a hope in gaining any recognition for what she was doing and the Atlantic confirmed it. They agreed with you. Instead they printed Lydia Sigourney, the sweet bard of Michigan, who wrote at length in polished and regular verses about Indian Maidens. As far as E.D. was concerned, she was nothing, and she was writing for herself. She piled up about 1200 of these little poems in little hand sewn booklets which she crammed into drawers in her desk. This is the way she wrote because she thought it was right. This is the way she saw the world. When the chips were down, she went for what she thought were the most essential parts of the poem. She might have hoped for more readers; might have prayed for them, but she never saw them. It isn't you she is telling off, Balladeer, it is pretty much life as a whole. What's in those poems is the life she's chosen in as spare and as compact a form as she can make it. She's left out everything she can that she things doesn't matter. And that includes both of us. She doesn't need us; she never did. It's not because of fame, it's because she about the most self contained person you will ever meet. To tell the truth, I think it's a wonder that Death found an opening to get in, she was that private. |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Brad thought I was speaking of "The Almighty" as distinct from humanity, but was actually referring to an incarnational view. If Jesus Christ is both human and divine (as orthodoxy says) then his triumph over death is something we may hope to participate in. But like Jim implied, if some "fairy tale" isn't real, then it is mors vincit omnia, with no recourse. The only thing that I perhaps disagree with Brad about here, is when he says that the merely human prospect of death does not exclude hope. Hope in what? I do love this poem and its imagery, especially the last line. Stephen |
||
|
Seoulair Senior Member
since 2008-03-27
Posts 807Seoul S.Korea |
quote: This is equal to say that To sit in a flying airplane is not flying, to fly is to be the airplane's food. ? contradict right? |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: --A.E. Stallings, Archaic Smile, 1999 I'm tempted to leave that as my response, but I guess I can add a few things. You can also get out of an airplane. I don't see the analogy. The food metaphor was moving in the same direction as I think Ess was going. Death is dependent on life. No life, no death. (Is that something any sane person would want?) I, perhaps, have a blind spot because I do not see how life is the inevitable result of death. Life is dependent on death, most life anyway. That is clear, but I don't see how one eliminates death unless one eliminates life. quote: I see no reason that hope must be rational. And to be honest, it doesn't seem to be anyway. As far as living healthy and using new medical procedures, I know from firsthand experience (and I'm not the only one) that these, while wonderful and important, don't diminish in any real sense the scope of death. Only by implicitly narrowing the scope of death (small pox victims, lung cancer victims) does that imply any real power over the guy with the scythe. Look at the possum. |
||
|
Seoulair Senior Member
since 2008-03-27
Posts 807Seoul S.Korea |
Sir Brad, You keep jumping from concrete death /life to abstract death/life. Then I shall say that there is not death..only transformation. Do you agree? No you would not. Because you asked us to look at the deadly dead possum. But when you talked about ED, "she still takes" Does dead people talk? life is a process and death is a point. A point can be unlimited divided so it goes towards where you want to point at. So, what is your exact definition of death? |
||
|
Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Brad quote: That is because life and death, (Stephanos is going to be annoyed by this) are the same thing! But it sounds nonsensical unless you listen more carefully. If you wish to give the same thing only one name let us call it "fire" for now, which word I think is a worthy metaphor. Life and death are this same thing: the fire. But life is the fire when it is very bright, so bright that it is called "life". And death is the fire when it is very unbright, so unbright that it is called "death" instead. Both of them are the same fire, just one referring to the fire when it is bright and the other referring to the fire when it is unbright. Therefore if you take away the fire when it is called "death" then you no longer have it anymore to be called "life" either. [This message has been edited by Essorant (04-21-2008 11:29 PM).] |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Seoulair: Fair enough. But aren't you doing the same thing? Death with a capital D is a personification of something that happens. I simply said that we have no power over it/him/her. As long as we keep that personification, to help death along is not a form of power, it is a form of subservience. Doesn't that make sense? If you want to get specific, my point is that avoiding Death implies a foreknowledge of when you die. If you know that is going to happen, it can't be changed: you are powerless. If you can change it, then that foreknowledge is wrong, and you didn't 'know' you were going to die. Doesn't that make sense? I'm not trying to play games, I'm not trying to be obscure (I originally had obtuse here. I'm not trying to that either. ). I am trying to come to terms with the fact that death is the point of no return. And that maybe the phrase, "and Death, thou shalt die" is perhaps one of those things that we shouldn't be wishing for. Maybe whatever difficulty I am presenting here is the result of me finding it difficult to come to terms with that. [This message has been edited by Brad (04-22-2008 12:21 AM).] |
||
|
Seoulair Senior Member
since 2008-03-27
Posts 807Seoul S.Korea |
Dear Brad, I shall say that you are "right" again and wait I'll come back to beat you down. [This message has been edited by Seoulair (04-22-2008 12:59 AM).] |
||
|
Seoulair Senior Member
since 2008-03-27
Posts 807Seoul S.Korea |
quote: There goes abstraction again. Let Death merrily wed Miss.Hell and in Sunny palace they'll forever dwell. We, by the touch of a soft dove, shall live as immortal. quote: we can not lie to ourselves. There is thing called death but we shall not scare of it so it sure will loss power on us. quote: To drive or not to drive because the car is going to rot anyway? Logically, if I know death is there and it is not changeable. ..right. If I know death is there and want to change it, then I don't know if I'm goign to die or not..so illogical. 1 year old death/100 years old death Zomming as same in your eyes I year old death and human history Zooming as none in universe eyes. Then, life was not there so why death? If you do not acknowledge life how you talk about death? It is true that every human being physically disappeared. Big deal? Religion has religious answer and physics has different answer and and chemistry. If Miss.Universe had eyes, we merely in the blinking time so she would not see human as exiting beings. How pathetic we are!!....No. we are not. Being exiting is significant enough. Life is measured by stories but no time. why bother by death if Mr.Death him self were happy. Let him happy because all those life long waiting for his love...we shall give him mercy, right? Ah, your poet, I shall tie my tongue. quote: no, you are not playing games. I try to understand your thought (the logical) And we are trying to say physical death is not the final end of life. quote: why? this is the whole base of Creation and Salvation in Christian faith. And Buddha, even animal need to be blessed to become human being or great poets for next cycle. I can understand what you said. you really want to cut other's hope to become a better one? quote: It is very difficult. If I can not answer it , I'll joke at it. |
||
|
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
In the context of your explanation, Brad, we can add a multitude of other forces/elements that we have no control over (or, as you put it, no control other than to serve the personification of these things). Yet the focus is on death because of the mystery surrounding "what happens next." We don't personify the air we breathe or the gravity that holds us down. We understand these things (or at least think we do) and do not "care" about them, because we know our place within the framework that contains them. We personify and mythologize Death because we want to know what happens after we die. We aren't serving Death in any case - it is an event, not the result of some plot - it isn't even necessary for life to flourish. It just is. There's no mystery to death, no black hooded villian (or lover) on the other side of the veil; there is just a breakdown of tissue and self. As someone else mentioned, it is a transformation. And, if we weren't such vain creatures that required our "selves" to live on, we would accept our new part in the world after death as nothing more than distressed electrical impulses and molecules floating around to form with other molecules. But I'm in that kind of mood lately. I do like your poetic interpretation better. |
||
|
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I like your mood, Christopher  |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Brad: quote: Therefore its more reasonable to have hope than not? I think there's a difference between saying that hope is not limited by rational categories, and that it is irrational. Trusting an unmistakable "hunch", or trusting someone's character or word when others have raised doubt, doesn't always embody irrationality. Sometimes it is the sanest approach, despite appearances. But then there is plain old delusion, which wouldn't fit this redeeming description at all. I think we should ask whether our world-view is one that renders hope really delusional, or something more preferable like audacious or undaunted. Believe me, I have nothing against hope, and would like only to encourage it. For while the Christian faith has been slurred as an "irrational hope" often enough, its historical and experiential moorings are more substantial than merely Platonic or purely mythical systems which promise hope beyond death. So while it may require some obstinacy or doubt of doubters, it is not exactly a shot in the dark either. Essorant: quote: When the fire goes out in the dead of winter, shall you be comforted by "unbright fire"? Or shall you rather admit that the fire has ceased? Darkness is the absence of light. Cold is the absence of heat, that's why there is such a thing as "absolute zero". How might this apply to life and death? In the same way, might not death be the absence of life, and not merely a variation of it? Christopher: quote: How do you know? I think you would be more accurate to say that if there is a plot you are now unaware of it. Anyway, you guys are the ones saying "The End" right? quote: Seeing that you've never experienced life without the counterpart of death, how do you know that it isn't necessary for life to flourish? quote: If you've never seen beyond the veil, and don't believe any of the stories about those who supposedly did, how do you know there is nothing on the other side? Your inexperience of death (and beyond) would seem to fit the definition of 'mystery' to a tee. quote: But aside from vanity, denying one's own destiny after death could just as well be interpreted as false humility. I for one have known and seen individuals who believed very much in a life beyond death, who could not convincingly be called 'vain'. Also, with death as final leveler with no recourse, would it matter much whether one was humble or vain? I've heard many people question the idea of whether "consciousness" is any different than matter, in the sense that it cannot be annihilated. C.S. Lewis mentions this in "The Problem of Pain": "People often talk as if the 'annihilation' of a soul were instrinsically possible. In all our experience, however, the destruction of one thing means the emergence of something else. Burn a log, and you have gases, heat and ash. To have been a log means now being those three things. If souls can be destroyed, must there not be a state of having been a human soul? And is not that, perhaps, the state which is equally well described as torment, destruction, and privation?" And while he mentions this as it relates to perdition, I only mention it to suggest that if some believe that human consciousness simply ceases to exist at death, it would be quite unique in that regard. Everything else changes, while only the most intimate and amazing thing we know of, self and other selves, would simply cease to be. I know this would fall outside the realms of empiricism, but doesn't that seem somehow doubtful? Stephen [This message has been edited by Stephanos (04-23-2008 10:54 AM).] |
||
|
Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Hope is not rational in any case, I believe, Stephanos. In the story of Pandora, in at least one version of it, when Pandora opened the box all the evils of the world escaped except for one. Pandora closed to box in time to keep that one, the greatest evil, inside. That evil was hope. This was not exactly the version I grew up with, and yet it was. Somehow all these nightmares had escaped from the box and yet hope had remained inside in the version I remembered, and wasn't Pandora clever for having managed to retain it? I was selling the subtlety of the Greeks short. In looking at some Buddhist philosophy, it seems that one is as tightly bound to suffering by one's positive attachments as by one's negative attachments. It's simpler to let go of fear and pain and greed than it is to let go of hope or luxury or pleasures. And hope can be the entrance into one of the buddhist hell realms of suffering, experienced, not only in the future, but also, as buddhist hell realms tend to be, in the here and now. In this life. |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Bob, If hope is irrational, then why do those who have the most of it tend to get along best? I can accept that hope doesn't seem rational at times, but I cannot accept that it is therefore irrational. Perhaps the Greek Pandora and the Buddhist Philosophy you mentioned were speaking of something like delusion calling it 'hope'? Anyway, what you wrote reminded me of "The Shawshank Redemption" (one of my favorite movies) where the prisoner Andy is warned by his sidekick Red against the dangers of hoping. And though the rationality of hope is challenged throughout the story, it finally prevails. Anyway I think there's a reason that such stories resonate with us as they do. Stephen |
||
|
Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Stephanos, I don't know that those who have the most hope get along best. This seems one of the unprovable assertions people generalize about. Also you I think you assume that what folks hope for is as compassionate and good-hearted as what you hope for. To have hope says nothing about what the hope is for. I think because you are a good man you tend to think hope is for good things. Sometimes it is. As you know, hope for some things is a fairly certain sure request for unhappiness. Gamblers and alcoholics live in a world of hope. One may have compassion for them and still see that the hope is part of the illness they suffer from. It seduces them into despair and self loathing. I'm afraid I have to go with the greeks on this one. Faith may be a different story, I'm not sure. I think faith requires a practice to help bring it to fruition. Prayer or meditation in which you offer something of yourself. Hope—who knows? My best, Bob |
||
|
Seoulair Senior Member
since 2008-03-27
Posts 807Seoul S.Korea |
It is very interesting to think if hope is rational or not. "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."--Bible (NIV) If thus related, hope should be internal built and should be above reasoning. |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Bob quote: Bob, you're right. The object of hope, or the nature of hope is just as important. I am certainly not making a case for hope in some general sense. In the context of this thread, I was speaking mainly of the hope of life beyond the crematorium, the conviction that we were meant for more than oblivion. This is basically a "good" kind of hope, and one that humanity hasn't been able to shake. It is not unconditionally good however, being more of a sign than anything. And so you've brought up a good point: that even the most wicked person may "hope" for mere continuance. The desire to go on living can in fact represent nothing more than narcism. In a dim way, even an insect might desire to go on living. But I am speaking of a hope which, though not unacquainted with self-interest, is quite different than that. Have you ever seen "Shawshank"? Stephen |
||
|
Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Stephanos, quote: No, for sure I won't be comforted. But only because one and the same thing is changed, being chiefly temperature, of which "hot" and "cold", "bright" and "unbright" "light" and "darkness" are degrees and visions, manners and expressions. The reason one manner or degree of temperature seems to "cease" is only because it becomes a different degree. Nothing is truly "ceased", but is just continued in a different degree. |
||
|
Seoulair Senior Member
since 2008-03-27
Posts 807Seoul S.Korea |
quote: Very true. But when we talk about visible light of human, we are not talking about on the standard of owl and whale, and so do on hearing range, and heart beat/per minutes. We do have cutting point on certain things based on their nature and our nature. And it is also true that Millions of 97F can not make a wood burn no matter how we claim ourselves hot.(Zeroth law of thermodynamics). So, matter and phenomenon is group and titled based their nature. There is no definite definition of life and you might say, to death too. But nobody wants to hire E.D to be a president of College, a baby sitter, or a slave because the biological change has made dead people lost certain characters though the atoms are still all there on earth if not stick on those space probes. my thought. |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
That's what I'm saying Ess, for every metaphor that you use to denote only a change of degree, there are five more to denote a sheer cliff of distinction. "Degree" is only our measurement of temperature. But you started off speaking of fire ... something quite different than our measurement of temperature. Stephen |
||
|
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
I don't know, Stephen, which is part of my response - I don't know any more than you do. I DO know that you can measure the physical affects on the body once it dies, can prove the breakdown of what was the vessel. What you can prove no more than I is what happens to the proverbial soul (especially since you can't prove its existence in the first place). I lean more toward the KISS philosophy - why invent some boogeyman who meets you on the other side of life and escorts you to some other means of existence, when to keep it simple, you can liken the soul's assimilation with that of your body? Funny thing is that I actually died when I was a child. I fell off my dad's van (no idea why I was up there, other than to guess "because it was there") and landed head-first on the concrete sidewalk. The impact was significant (understatement) and, following several minutes of blindness, my heart stopped beating. I was revived, and aside from a somewhat sketchy long-term memory, have suffered no long term negative effects. I don't recall much of that time, other than a few glimpses - waking in a hospital room (jello, I remember that) - a feeling of my mom holding me as we raced to the hospital - and an unfocused anxiety that may or may not be what I felt at the time. What I DON'T recall, is a tunnel of light, a man in a black shroud, or a feeling of peace infusing my bones as I began to be carried toward a different plane of existence. Conclusive proof? No, of course not. But then, I feel no need to justify the "reason" I was brought back. |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Really? |
||
|
Seoulair Senior Member
since 2008-03-27
Posts 807Seoul S.Korea |
What I DON'T recall, is a tunnel of light, Nice that you survived. You sure have another chance to repent. |
||
|
Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Chris, I was only pointing out that your agnosticism seems pretty knowing at times ... Like how you're sure that no one else can know either. But as far as invention is concerned, I totally agree. No need to invent. But since we have strange and obstinate historical data to contend with, that says God has revealed himself, it is no more "simple" to say that it was simply contrived. In fact that route leads to some pretty elaborate attempts at explanation But that gets into a whole discussion that exceeds the scope of this thread. Anyway, I'm glad they got you back. Brad, I'm pretty sure what you're talking about is congenital. Stephen |
||
|
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Hey, I said I suffered no long term negative effects... I didn't say the rest of you aren't still suffering.  |
||
|
Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Christopher, I'm unclear about the whole thing myself. I notice however when you filled in the place you're living you cited "purgatorial incarnation." I wonder to what extent this may be literally true for you. I can do this because I am a complete stranger and the question is an utter shot in the dark. My understanding is that only about 1 out of 3 folks who have had Near Death Experiences actually report any of the Kenneth Ring classic seven (It is seven, isn't it?) features, so your report shouldn't shock anybody. Myself, I'm quite unclear about the notion of death. I don't know how to separate the thing itself from the cultural aspects of it. I don't know how to deal with the mind-body problem or even if there is one. I am vastly stupid about the whole thing and getting more ignorant by the day as I get to know more and more. It's humiliating. I do know there's a new translation of The Tibetan Book of The Dead out recently that's supposed to be an improvement over the Richard Wilhelm version with the introduction by Jung, and that I'm saving up to get the thing, and squirreling away extra energy in my attention banks to be able to get through it. It's supposed to guide the spirit through the process of dying and into the next incarnation through readings over the body done over a period of 40 days. There is also an Egyptian Book of The Dead which I don't find personally as moving and several Christian guides to dying that or roughly of medieval origin. I have no information about them, other than they tend to emphasize the art of dying. I suspect there may be an art to it, though the opportunity for practice must be limited. A grim joke on my part, that. Yours, Bob K. |
||
|
|
⇧ top of page ⇧ |
|
| All times are ET (US). All dates are in Year-Month-Day format. | ||
