Philosophy 101 |
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Fishing Lessons |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia ![]() |
While I have command of my faculties; Teaching a man to fish may be a great survival skill if you're marooned on a desert island -- but we live in a complex economic system. Given the fish analogy -- knowing how to fish is of little value comparatively and competitively because if the man doesn't have a boat, winch, net, fuel, liscence, and a means to deliver his fish to the marketplace -- he has little recourse but to fish all day long on someone else's boat, catch a lot of fish, and get paid in return a very small portion that is decided largely by the owner of the boat. Most of the time this will be an amount that would make obtaining a boat at some point an unattainable goal. Moreover -- the owner may or may not be a participant in the fishing process -- but takes a large cut for his 'rent'. That is a perfectly acceptable model -- but the axiom doesn't take into account the factors that there are more would-be fishermen than there are boats, or fish, or market -- nor does it consider that the owner will get to pass his boat on to his heirs -- who will have never done anything to earn it. The West was won on African slave labor, indentured servants, migrant workers, and Chinese rail and mine workers. Wealth concentrates. And then there's Marx and T.R. The age of Adams was long past discredited by the time Rand wrote 'Atlas'. But wasn't it a brilliant design that she would write it to appeal to the boat owners -- right down to her ideal of femininity? |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Well, the actual phrase is "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.", or something like that. The object is appeasing someone's hunger, not providing them with a means of livelihood. As far as the extras you have thrown into the mix, come to Venezuela with me and let's fish. There the fishermen use long strands of fishing lines, a hook and a glove on their hand. They twirl the line over their heads like a lariat, let it fly and then let the tide carry it out. When there is a tug on the line, they pull it in, wrapping the line around their gloved hand. No poles, no boat, winch, net, fuel or nets needed. (This, of course, doesn't apply to those fishermen who need a $20,000.00 boat, $500.00 fishing jacket, pants, boots and cap, and thousands of dollars in fishing gear) It's curious how we can set up our own barricades to excuse our NOT being able to do something instead of just doing it. ![]() |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Local Rebel: I am glad you still have command of your faculties. When I was in school, the faculties pretty much had command of me. As the grandson, on both sides, of Scots indentured servant girls who each worked seven years to pay their passage, and the grandson on both sides of Scots ship-jumpers, I don't know that they won the West. On the other hand, they all learned how to fish the hard way. Best, Jim |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Hey, don't knock those of us who have a lot of fun with a cane pole, some string with a hook, a cork, and some night crawlers. Yes, I bait my own hook, and yes, the cork comes from a nice bottle of Zin. It seems to me that the boats were the same for men and women in Atlas, where usually men got the big boats, and women were only a factor if it sank. Dagny Taggert was a powerful woman who had her own ship of dreams. BTW Jim, We're probably related. ![]() |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
So, Mike. The reason you haven't beaten Tiger Woods is what? reg; quote: Jim -- how could it have been done without them??? ![]() |
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Ron
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Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Yep. Capitalism sucks, Reb. Then again, we both know that everything else sucks more. ![]() Of course, the metaphor you're referencing probably shouldn't be taken too literally. We don't really need fishermen so much as we need people who know how to make a living. You know, as opposed to people who expect others to support them? The adage, I'm sure, was written in a time when most people could still be self-sufficient and live off the land. Or the river, I guess. Perhaps, in today's world, we could come up with something a bit more appropriate? "You can give a man a burger and feed him for a day, or you can teach him that flipping burgers isn't beneath his dignity and feed him for a lifetime." ![]() |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Yep, and if he's eating burgers he won't have to worry about living too long at that. ![]() The Libertine Capitalism that Rand aspired to did suck. Without a central banking system there was chaos. Without anti-trust and inheritance taxing, capital concentrated into the hands of the robber-barons. Adam's (and Rand's) natural aristocracy eventually destroyed even themselves. If everyone got to start with the same capital, the same opportunity, the same talent, the same intellectual capacity, and got to collect 200 bucks for passing go that would be one thing. But you can't even buy Oriental Avenue flipping burgers. Mike complains about the way Bill Gates gets treated -- maybe he's forgotten that Bill Gates was an intellectual moocher. (Ask Steve Jobs for his opinion). Yet Rand would have it that only the government picks the pockets of the 'minds'. and, I think my mind just ran out.. |
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Ron
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Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Yea? I'm guessing you never read my well hidden bio posted on the main site, Reb? ![]() My first job out of the Marines (actually, I started while still stationed locally) was flipping burgers, Reb. I had a wife, a daughter, and another on the way. Flipping burgers got me through college. And a third kid. After graduating, I managed another small handful of restaurants and restaurant chains for some few years, until 1981 when I returned to the classroom to learn a bit about this new fangled thing called computers. No more burgers for this kid! I didn't buy Oriental Avenue, of course, but I think I did okay. In my opinion, success doesn't depend on how much you make every week, but rather on how much you KEEP each week. If you have to make a living flipping burgers for a while (a long while in my case), you just have to be willing to live like someone flipping burgers. That's the hard part for most folk, I think. Oh, and of course, Gates was an intellectual moocher. Then again, so was Steve Jobs (ask the people at Xerox for their opinions). Ideas, even really good ideas, are a dime a dozen. The real results are in the execution. ![]() |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Well I'll try to do this with half-a-brain (which is probably giving myself more credit than I deserved when it was actually working). Yep -- I never read your well-hidden, well-writen bio -- but I certainly enjoyed it! That's a great story Ron. And your Veterans benefits enabled your rise from lowly burger flipping. Let's say someone doesn't have Veterans benefits (and not everyone can-- and under current circumstances I think it may be understandable why someone might not want to pursue that path) -- then -- they will need access to job specific training through other means -- or remain a burger flipper. In the current business climate -- I think you'd agree there is not the opportunity to begin a software company that there was in the eighties. And, there aren't that many kinds of businesses that can succeed with talent and sweat of brow alone my friend. On the other hand -- if the burger flipper is willing to flip burgers -- why should he have to live in the back of a 20-year-old station wagon (an actual burger flipper I know). Isn't the veil of ignorance the more rational self-interest? And --I agree execution is important - but a well capitalized venture with a mediocre idea beats an under-funded great idea any day -- if Jobs hadn't found an $80k angel early on -- it's difficult to say what turn your career might have taken. When Gates meets his expiration date -- there is no reason that his fortune -- made possible by the burger flippers and floor sweepers -- should remain soley in the hands of those who did not earn it. Rand's appeal to reason is only sound if everyone's paradigms of truth and intellectual capacity are equal -- and her conclusions are suitably tailored to appeal to her benefactors -- and let's not forget -- her heroine inherited! ![]() It's the gabapentin... I swear! |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Yep, she's allowed to have her views. I never said I admire her every thought, and she has flaws as everyone does. I may not be completely into hero-worship, but I look up to my Dad and my Granddaddy. I'm honored to have men like them to look up to. But there's some great ladies in my bloodline that helped keep them in line too. They all taught me how to be myself and to go out and get what I wanted in life. Don't depend on others for it. In fact, I didn't just go for the boats, I went for the trains, planes, surfboards, motorcycles, race cars, and my first car? 49 Ford. When everyone else was driving 80's models. The only problem I have is finding a Fish who can keep up with me. |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Actually, reb, you have no idea how many letters I have written to Tiger Woods challenging him to a match. Has he responded? Not once! Go figure... Truth is that I can enjoy my golf tremendously without having the ability to beat Woods. The "If you ain't number one, you ain't nothing" philosophy is ridiculous. You can only hope to be the best your own capabilities allow. A kid went up to Cassius Clay (at the time) and said, "If I was as big s you, I'd be heavyweight champion, too", to which Clay replied, "So what's stopping you from being the lightweight champion?" Or, in a phrase which may be more to your liking, "If you can't be a tree then be a Bush." ![]() John Galt inherited wealth? Reardon? That fellow architect in the other book? Gates? ![]() |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
laugh~ "If you can't be a tree then be a Bush." I'd rather be a briar patch. or Poison Ivy ![]() I think I'm a weed. |
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Drauntz Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905Los Angeles California |
Dear Sir Balladeer, "Actually, reb, you have no idea how many letters I have written to Tiger Woods challenging him to a match. Has he responded? Not once! Go figure..." ...you need to change your name first. A match between a Tiger and a Deer? be rational!!!! ![]() |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
No worries, Drauntz. I was only lion ![]() |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Just popping in here to groan. ![]() |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: I doubt, considering his intellect and ability and work ethic, that the reason that Ron didn't make it in the Photography business or as commercial artist was because he sucked or because Olan Mills was better. In fact -- I'll bet he furnished his clients with a much better product than Olan Mills ever aspired to. I also seriously doubt, that you don't want to have more money than Bill Gates -- or win the Masters. If you reach for the stars eh? And Who is John Galt? Who took John Galt's dream away? Do CEO's really decide to share with everybody in the company equally? Every corporation I worked for as an engineer made me sign an agreement as a condition of employment that anything I invented (aka designed) was property of the company? Why? Because that's what they were paying me to do -- and thier investment in the tools and facilities for the reasearch involved were expected to bring proprietary technologies. The sale of which would yeild a profit for the shareholders. The real Galts -- men like Tucker, Hughes -- sure they had their pockets picked by the government -- by men who were installed into government positions to represent thier competitor's interests -- not 'the people'. Shall we have a conversation about K Street? And, without the sacrifice of Francisco's entire life and fortune -- there is no John Galt -- it seems, he lived his life for another man. The true irony? Rand laughed. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Hmm..interesting. Loved the bio on Tucker, the car and there was a movie, but yeah, hate the way they were shook down so to speak. Do you think Howard Hughes overcame that or earned things a bit differently? the Galts of the world... Ever been to the Biltmore Estate in Asheville NC? Wow. Not all Galts are from the same cloth, hear tell Mr. Vanderbilt basically went cuckoo in the end and hated the place? So as far as inheriting, he nearly ended it with himself. But, what a legacy and piece of architectural art he left behind. I've been there several times. sighs...I have an appreciation for the Gilded Age, because there was still some sense of celebration in refinement. Now there seems to be many gaudy attempts at it. i'll just remain humble and plain so I don't mistake it all. ![]() |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
I don't know Regina... Tucker and Hughes both lived by the sword, so to speak, equiping the U.S. Military with materiel for WWII. Myself -- I loved the STYLE of the 30's, 40's and 50's -- but, I couldn't have stood the society. Colored only/White only. The signs were still up when I was a kid and my school didn't get desegregated until I was in third grade or so. It kind of makes the plights of rich white men, um, pale -- in comparison. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
so true. I think those times in our American history are most sad and shameful. I just wondered about Hughes since he wasn't well accepted within the social circles of his own interests. I also wonder if that makes a difference when money is of no object, because we all assume that money buys everything, even acceptance. (that is if one could overlook his peculiarities) Fish school. ![]() |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
also seriously doubt, that you don't want to have more money than Bill Gates -- or win the Masters Then your doubts are in grave error, reb. I've never given a thought to having more money than Bill Gates. The Masters? Sure, in a daydream I would like to win one but I have never even considered putting in the time and effort to be good enough to make it a reality. Tiger did. Why would you think I would seriously want either of those things? Because that's what people are supposed to want? Believe me, many don't. I'm perfectly content to have what I have but then I've never professed to be a Rand character. ![]() Reach for the stars? Anyone can dream of it. How many dedicate their lives to it, study for it, work towards it, get the education necessary for it? Reaching takes more than sticking your hand up in the air trying to grab something. Who said Ron wasn't a success? If he put everything he had into it, who would you or I be to say he wasn't successful? Is the bottom line on the bank statement the only measure of success? When Rand's character was asked that, if there were an afterlife, what would she want her peers to say to her upon her arrival, she answered, "I would like for them to say 'well done'." who took John Galt's dream away? No one.... |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Hughes could have received top medical care now Regina for his OCD -- but I don't know if Trump would be a fitting analog or not -- Trump doesn't aspire to anything except opulence and more of it like our scandal ridden CEO's: quote: This behavior more mirrors addiction than irrational self-interest -- but then there is the other dimension of those who are well suited for the tasks of commanding an industry -- they have anti-social personality disorder - aka sociopaths. It's highly unlikely that Taggert would ever come face to face with exactly who and what he was because men like him have no consciense. They are exactly like criminals. But as Twain would say -- it's in their make. Sorry Mike -- I'll have to catch you on the next sitting. ![]() |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Not a lot of time, but two quick points, if I may, Reb. First, we probably shouldn't forget that a CEO is, when push comes to shove, just another employee. And I've never seen ANY company that didn't have an ongoing problem with employee theft. Not every employee is a thief, of course, but not every CEO is either. Second, I had to smile at one of the questions in your quotation: "When you're already a multimillionaire, why do you need more?" I smiled because I have to strongly suspect that many Third World families, subsisting on the equivalent of a few hundred dollars a year, probably say much the same thing about Middle Class America. We already have SO MUCH, and yet it seems as if we're all scrambling for just a little bit more. Isn't that pretty much symptomatic of the human condition, though? When we have everything we could ever possibly want, we either stop breathing or very quickly find something else to want. It doesn't necessarily have to more of the same, of course, but up to a certain point, that seems to be almost inevitable. Why does a Middle Class family have to have two or three cars? I think it's pretty much the same reason the wealthy might have two or three houses. The more one has, the more one needs to support it. At the end of the day, the rich are the same as the poor. They just have more money is all. ![]() |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
*shiver* up my spine, here. all this talk about Corporations and CEO's is chilling me cuz I remember, all too well, what it was like working for them. there was some high times, but more often than not the air was filled with bloody fear and greed. There were bowls of anti-depressants in the "green room". Thankfully, there is always a window, somewhere, where one can get some fresh air. I'm a sucker for rags to riches stories, like the one LeeJ posted in announcements. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k08yxu57NA I couldn't be happier for this man, but I'm worried at the same time. I hope he never loses his humble heart. what he has, you can't teach, but it can be taken away. Sighs. Media Moguls. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Ron, Motivation is quite a bit more complex than that. The unchecked motivation for revenge, for example, is so strong that a person will give up everything to obtain it. Also for love. Neurotransmitters take over. That doesn't mean that self-interest isn't still present -- but rationality is a hard thing to come by when you're really ticked off -- or just aroused. That doesn't mean that I don't buy Maslow's intent -- it's just that subsequent studies have shown that the real motivations don't come in any specific hierarchy. It makes sense that people may care more about surviving than art -- but, not more than status or revenge, or schadenfreude. Giving our reward-center in the brain what it wants is ultimately what motivates. The personality types that are suited to making the kinds of decisions that many CEO's have to make -- especially the ones that have to climb from the bottom to get there -- are willing to do things to get there that most 'normal' people aren't willing to do. On the other hand -- studies have shown that our reward center responds to paying taxes (involuntarily) -- but that voluntary charity donations do produce a stronger response. (in normal people) Twain was more right a century earlier. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Mike, quote: On reading his bio the apparent bar Ron set for himself was avoiding starvation. quote: Are these excuses Mike? You wanted to be a Rand character. You've said you tried -- couldn't do it. What do you think about that attempt tended to drive away your friends? Is it possible your poker buddies don't really want to win either -- but just enjoy the game? Gambling addicts -- they aren't really about winning are they? It's just the thrill of the risk that they're addicted to -- win or lose -- the game is the thing. I hope you don't take this the wrong way -- it's really only my intent to get people to stop beating themselves up for not reaching the stars -- which is what philosophies like Objectivism tend to do -- and why I prefer Twain to Rand. On the other hand -- it's also my intent to get people who have 'success' to be disabused of the notion that they are 'self-made' -- or that thier success belongs to them alone -- it doesn't. You may invent a confection better than ice-cream. How boring if there is no one to eat it. |
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Balladeer
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since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Excuses, Reb? What am I trying to excuse? That I'm not richer than Gates? That I haven't won the Masters? Those have never been goals of mine so why should I have to make excuses for not reaching them? Afraid I don't understand the comment. On reading his bio the apparent bar Ron set for himself was avoiding starvation I can't presume to speak for Ron and have no idea what the situation was back then but I find it highly unlikely that ron considered himself a failure in that department. He may have lost his money. He may have been facing starvation. It would appear that we have different definitions of failure. It is my belief that, when a man does everything he can possibly do to reach a specific goal, he is a success, no matter what. Did Ron do EVERYTHING he possibly could for years to achieve that specific goal? Only he would be able to answer that one. Of course you have to understand what "everything one can possibly do" signifies. It's not simply opening a store, putting an ad in the paper and, when no customers come, say "Well, I tried." Thomas Edison failed hundreds of time to create the light bulb. When asked how he endured all those failures, he replied, "Those weren't failures. I discovered hundreds of ways NOT to create a light bulb!" You are exactly right about gambling addicts....winning is secondary to the thrill. Do my poker buddies want to win? Sure? Is it their only goal? Nope. The comraderie, the recognition of being a "competent player", the armosphere....all of these are equally important. If one were to add up all the wins and losses by equally capable players for the year, the money won or lost would be negligible.....the 52 nights of comraderie and friendship priceless. You want losers? Go to Vegas or Atlantic City and you can pick them out every night. You want people dedicated to winning? Go to (I forget which) university where 8 students trained for years to break the bank in blackjack and then went to Vegas and did just that (for which they are now permanently banned from all casinos). What do you think about that attempt tended to drive away your friends? Great question there, reb. I tried to think rationally at all times, act rationally and make everything I did count....tough for a 19 year old soldier together with a battalion of other 19 year olds. there was no laughing at jokes I didn't find funny, no drinking just to get plastered, no "moral santions" given to mindless actions....the list can go on and on. I was as liked as Howard Roark or Francisco D'. In one part of Atlas Shrugged francisco asked Dagny if it ever bothered her that in school she had had no friends or popularity. She slapped him and he understood because he had felt the same way. It is a downside, and a big one. The biggest reason for my failure, though, was much more important. I had no purpose. All of her characters were driven to fulfill a purpose. I had none and therefore nothing to drive myself toward, nothing to dedicate my life toward achieving. Without that, the attempt was meaningless. Guess what? I still don't, in terms of financial gain. I can live with that...even if it means I'll never be John Galt. ![]() it's really only my intent to get people to stop beating themselves up for not reaching the stars -- which is what philosophies like Objectivism tend to do In that case, you don't get the point of Rand's philosophy at all. Rand did not advocate reaching the stars. She only advocated TRYING to reach the stars....trying to do the best one can do based on their abilities. It does not condemn those not willing to try. It simply advocates lead, follow, or get out of the way. For those who would beat themselves up for not becoming richer than Gates, they can blame their own irrational view of reality and not Objectivism. Religion encourages that all men be holy, which no man can fully attain. Do you then condemn religion for causing people to beat themselves up for not achieving sainthood? it's also my intent to get people who have 'success' to be disabused of the notion that they are 'self-made' -- or that thier success belongs to them alone -- it doesn't. No intelligent successful man worth his salt would claim that their success belongs to them alone. Success relies on many thing including chance, luck, right place-right time, and a host of intangibles. However he realizes that his success was made possible by the fact that he initiated it. He put out the effort to make it possible and to give the intangibles a chance to come along. As Lee Trevino once said, "It's funny but the more I practice the luckier I get!" So, if your two goals stated here (1) getting people to stop beating themselves up and (2) disabusing self-made people of their "all mine" notions, relax and have a beer. They are taken care of. Lastly, success is never boring ![]() |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: That was a bit tongue in cheek, Reb. The studio was actually more than mildly successful and I sold my interest in it to my partner after two years for a nice profit. He kept it going another five years. I sold the studio for the same reason I eventually got out of Commercial Art. I discovered, first, that the emphasis was much more on commercial than on art, and -- much, much worse -- I realized I was personally much better at the commerce than I would ever be at the art. I still remember the precise moment my career as an artist ended. My downfall was Pablo Picasso and the realization I would never be THAT good. I was still young enough, naïve enough, and idealist enough to be unwilling to settle for second best. ![]() quote: On the contrary, Reb, I believe we are all self-made, success or failure notwithstanding. If you want people to share the credit, Reb, you also have to be willing to let them share the blame. What you're suggesting is just another way of saying, "It wasn't my fault." I really don't think you can have one without the other. Taking credit is just the flip side of accepting responsibility. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Let's start there since we are in total agreement Mike, and, I'll add that invention is a process of happy accidents. Sometimes all you have to do is sit under a tree and have an apple hit you in the head. Granted -- one would have required a lifetime of preparation to understand what's happy about the accident when it happens. quote: Which man could have succeeded without a market? Without a Constitution of rights,laws, and courts? Without teachers? Without a central banking system? Public schools? Post-secondary grants, loans, scholarships, veterans benefits, a culture to give success context? Here's the test Ron -- was Edison's Lightbulb our (humanity's) achievement -- or was it Edison's? Or both? Was stepping on the moon Armstrong's achievment? Nasa's? Ours? A small step for a man, a giant leap for mankind? People used to come to me, companies, in the process of launching new products -- with the product in design phase -- show me the concept and then ask me to invent (design) something that would produce it at an economical price-point. I'd bid the jobs with a cartoon concept -- If I won the bid -- then I had to start hammering that concept into the constraints of reality -- time, money, and physics. Very seldom did it look the same when I got done with it as what was sold at the begining of the process -- point being -- it was always a process of work, knowledge, and lots of LUCK! But still -- even when lucky (and good) -- it had no context without the need to make the product. The product had not context without a market. quote: On page one you said; quote: This is where the rubber hits the road guys. Mike -- you say, if I may paraphrase, that if someone is just willing to try -- that is success -- but Rand's capitalism doesn't reward trying. There is no consolation prize for attempting to build the perpetual motion motor. And I'll pick this up in the Einstein thread later.. |
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Ron
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Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: And what man could have failed without the same? You essentially blur the distinction between George Washington and Adolph Hitler, Reb. If neither man can have succeeded, then surely neither man could have failed. They were the same. And society fares no better in your imagined world. If Edison's accomplishments were not his own, if they are to be claimed by you and I, then I'm afraid you and I have to also lay claim to the accomplishments of Jeffrey Dahmer. If we are all to be inventers and geniuses, then we must all also be murderers and sociopaths. quote: Without a market, Reb, there never was a product. I think, as an engineer, you are perhaps confusing the thing with the need (perceived or real) that every product must fulfill to even be a product. Edison didn't invent a light bulb. He devised a solution. Of course, what you're actually referencing, Reb, is the need for an infrastructure. The man who invented the wheel didn't have a lot of infrastructure behind him, Newton and Edison certainly had a great deal more, and you have still more yet. Success isn't diminished by the need for an infrastructure, Reb, but rather is defined by it. The wheel, Classical Physics, the light bulb, and yea, hopefully even the products you design, are all accomplishments that extend the existing infrastructure. That's hardly an indictment of individual achievement to may way of thinking. quote: But you could never win a bid in your reality, Reb. After all, that would be a success and something you would clearly have to share with me and Mike. ![]() |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
If society/the economy demanded mass murders and megalomaniacs then Dhamer and Hitler (you brought him up Ron -- you lose ![]() I'm not confusing the tool with the need. As I've said many times -- people don't want drills -- they want holes. Nobody wanted a light 'bulb' -- we wanted light. Every bid that I won was yours and Mikes Ron -- because it fulfilled a part of your infrastructure. When I made a buck and went to the store and bought a can of beans the farmer who produced the beans, the factory workers who made the tractors, combines, wagons, trucks, that were necessary to produce that can of beans -- the fuel company that went to the ground to get oil and coal -- the people who pulled the ore out of the ground and turned it into iron - the chemists who made the plastics -- the tool makers and engineers who produced the tools -- the people who made the can -- the truck drivers that drove it to the store -- the advertising agency that told me about the beans -- the people at the store where I bought it -- the computer programmers who provided software to keep track of all that data -- the revenues paid to the local, state, and federal governments -- all won that bid and made a buck. (with apologies to Zig Ziglar for mangling his speech from 30 year memory). |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Zig Ziglar? Now that was a long, long time ago. ![]() |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Zig Man Ziglar? Wow. I haven't heard that name in eons. quote: Now hold on. I tend to try to keep my feet planted firmly on the ground with a level head, while I admire the stars. If by chance I do something that catapults me to the top of whatever mountain of responsibility it took for me to get there. I'll be a bit closer to the stars, but I'll never forget the valley from whence I came and how easy it might be for me to roll back down into it. It's irrational to beat one's self up in the game of success. Causes over achievement, early burn out, the need for stress and anger management courses, heart attacks, divorce and detachment because people are married to their jobs. but mainly, that's how some struggle with delusions of grandeur which goes against Objectivity. That type of behavior resists reason and the focus becomes success at any price. I'm glad I didn't succeed at some of my cockamamie ideas. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
So why would people beat themelves up for not suceeding if success depended on so many other people, events, luck, the market, etc.? They can go to you to let them know it's not really their fault ![]() Rand's theory on capitalism does not reward effort without financial success? Again I will remind you of Howard Roark, her main character in The Fountainhead. Financial-success wise, he was a zero all the way through the book up to the end. He was a hero because he had a set of goals and ideals he would not abandon, even when he was offered millions to do so, even while starving. What about Halley, whose music was the most glorious sound Dagny had ever heard? He struggled for years in the "outside" world. His music was what made him a hero of hers, not how many times he topped the charts, like Snoop Doggy Dog. Even John Galt could have - and was prepared to - live out his days at the Gulch and would have if the national collapse of the country had not presented itself while he ws still alive. Her books are riddled with examples of characters who were not capitalistic successes but heroes, nontheless. People set up excuses for their failures? I certainly stand by that but I didn't and don't see how tht applies to my not winning the Masters, for example. ![]() As soon as you set up all your "failure" option on why you may not succeed (none of them being your own fault, of course) you have insured non-success. If someone were to come out with a book entitled "You're a Failure But It's Not your Fault, it would probably sell millions. I would do it but there are so many hours in a day, you know, and a man has to work and when I get home I'm too tired to think and the kids have the darn tv going all the time and I don't have any pencil;s handy to jot down notes...it's not my fault! ![]() |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: You really should have called, Reb. There were a few bids there I probably would not have accepted as optimally profitable. Ultimately, our net to the infrastructure could have been much higher had you but listened to me. You should have called. But that's okay, too, I guess. It's certainly not your fault you didn't call. Not in a world void of successes and failures. What say we blame that one on Mike? ![]() |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Don't blame me! Everybody knows he's a Rebel ![]() |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Inadvisable Ron. Analyzing a business on a product-by-product or project-by-project basis is misleading to the overall gestalt of the organization. Even a money-losing project can be beneficial to the enterprise if it absorbs overhead, thus supporting the margins on other projects. In an endeavor that is heavily dependent upon skilled specialists in particular it is important to keep thier hours in 'inventory' for future profit. Moreover -- sometimes it's better to take on a losing project with a new customer in order to learn how to make money off of him or her. Remember, Brad is the cute one. ![]() |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
All; quote: |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: quote: |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Yep. That's why I specifically said "optimally profitable," Reb. Sometimes you have to accept a deal where the profit is NOT money, but something less tangible. Trust me, Reb, programmers are no less expensive a resource to maintain than are engineers. I understand what you're saying. But that wasn't the point, was it? By not calling me on our bid, I never had the opportunity to make a decision. Ironically, Bill Gates hasn't called me about our company, either. ![]() Question: Do you want us to debate Rand's estranged protégé, Nathaniel Branden, Reb? Or are we to assume that everything you quoted from him also mirrors your own stance? Are you prepared to answer questions about the stance you and Branden are advocating? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: What you land on is up to the dice you roll Ron. If you buy it or not is up to you. If you put houses and hotels on it, up to you. You may win the game. I may lose the game. But you can't win if there isn't a game. We all own the board. Moreover -- Rand's fantasy that an elite class holds up the world is a blatant appeal to vanity. Do you deny the interstitchal nature of the economy. Doesn't the rising tide lift all boats? My chocolate is in your peanut butter. How can you have a discussion about Rand without Brandon Ron? Discuss away -- I' m up all night no matter how bad it hurts me --I have an EEG in the morning and I have to limit sleep. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Sure, Reb, but we don't generally get just one turn. Over the course of a lifetime, most of us are going to land on every single square. Usually several times. And, unlike board games, there's nothing to prevent us from both buying Oriental Ave. Is luck a factor? Absolutely. But, statistically, in the long run, we all have exactly the same luck. Contrary to popular opinion, Chance doesn't play favorites. quote: First, Reb, let me clarify something. I'm not a proponent of Ayn Rand so much as I'm a proponent of some of her ideas. Personally, I think Newton was a bit off center, too, but that doesn't change the value of the gravitational constant by so much as a decimal place. Addressing specific differences, especially in light of this particular thread, I believe capitalism is the ONLY economic system viable in any setting larger than a family, but I am NOT in favor of Rand's brand of laissez-faire capitalism. I think we need controls, lest capitalism run amok. However, I should quickly add that I typically advocate slightly fewer controls than necessary rather than risk too many controls. And, yes, of course, the rising tide lifts all boats. Just as the receding tide lowers them again. We are ALL under exactly the same constraints, Reb. Sure, the successful stand on the shoulders of giants. So do the failures, though. Certainly we should give all due credit to the giants of the past, as well as to the contemporaries that support our efforts today. A restaurant can't exist without its vendors, and a restaurant on the local Restaurant Row is as dependent on the success of the other restaurants on the street as on its own marketing. No economy exists in a vacuum. I know exactly what you mean, Reb, and I completely agree. It does not, however, follow that we should attribute our success or blame our failure (and, again, you can't advocate one without advocating both) on others. That's just a cop out, in my opinion. We have to accept responsibility for our own decisions, and that's just as true of success as it is for failure. I acknowledge the dependencies, Reb, but regulated Capitalism bends over backwards to make sure we get to choose our dependencies. Those choices, I think, mean the difference between success and failure. (And good luck at the doctors, Reb.) |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Thanks Ron -- since they were just looking at my brain waves there's not really any chance of them finding anything! ![]() I, like you, am not against ALL of Rand's ideas, and my major point of contention is not so ironically, and almost predictably -- the same as yours -- that laizzes-fare capitalism is rational self-interest. In fact -- if I were an Objectivist -- I'd accuse Rand of 'evading' and being evil for it. Because, I don't personally believe that she believed what she was saying was true. I think she merely recognized that she could buck a trend and make a move into an uncontested field in a way that would resonate with the people who were most in a position to benefit HER. So, that was rational self-interest. I'm also not advocating that we take away, or fail to acknowledge individual success -- I am pointing out that we, as a collective share in that success -- because if it hadn't been for our need of light in the cold dark night (hey it's a poetry site) there would have been no impetus to make an electric light bulb. We, as a collective, gave him a patent that protected his individual acheivement so that Edison, and Edison alone (along with whomever might make a financial investment and take the risk that went along with it) could benefit from that achievment. But, when the time was up the time was up. The electric light bulb reverted to the property of us all, and the world. Of course, through good management he was able to turn that head start into the powerhouse that is still General Electric. Anybody feel like investing money in a company that does exactly the same things as General Electric? We don't, statistically, have the same luck though. In fact, it's more accurate that a histogram compiled of the entire population is going to be extremely multi-modal and surrounding those many humps we will see issues such as race, gender, and economic/social class emerge as the assignable causes. Now, anybody know a good solvent to get this crappy conductive paste out of my hair? ![]() |
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Drauntz Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905Los Angeles California |
make you head bald, sir Rebel. ![]() |
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Drauntz Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905Los Angeles California |
to Sir local rebel or whoever has answers The kind of economy what Sir Rebel talked about almost did not exist because which is base on everybody had equal consuming need and all the profit he earns will back to the investment market and the investment all profit from it. so 1. Do all the CEO's put their profit back to the market? if they all invest their money in America not globally.( or like some one invest ?$ for a picture of Paris Hilton) 2. Do all the CEO's try hard to keep the quality of product while try hard to cutting down the cost then to control the price? if they did not try to monopoly the market to rise their price as much as it goes for profit? 3. what is the effect of global free trading on American economy? If individual consumer all buy online much cheaper and same quality goods from other countries? 4. what is the function of Fed if they invest government money (tax) by Billions for another country's political stableness but end up causing more chaos. and the investment lost all its capital...like half built dam or half anything? 4. what do you benefit from Fed's ability to manipulate stock market? if the government is so scared that all the CEO's claimed bankrupt , then 100% unemployment..people will become mobs or if not that bad, several banks where your money is saved closed forever? The Fed sure would support their losing on the stock market.But do they do a fair investment after being saved by Government? (they all shall be begged by Government and also invest within in US). Is there any benefit, in general development of a society, of stock market down? 5.What if lots of money did not come back to the market like big bombs? do we benefit from that spending? the horse of Capitalism obviously needs a cowboy..a reasonable one as we wish due to human nature of greediness and selfishness. But it is quite marvelous and more advanced than the pig of socialism that every body wants to have cut but no body wants to feed it. do I know what I am thinking? no idea. [This message has been edited by Drauntz (06-28-2007 12:42 PM).] |
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