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Paging Brad
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Paging Brad |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738
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In another thread, you said, "I once wrote the idea that all writers (and by extension thinkers) secretly want to become extinct." This interested me. Could you perhaps expound on that for me (or, if it's already available in another thread, at least direct me to it?) Just bumblebee grazing, thinking again, and you sparked my curiousity. Thanks in advance.  |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
shhhhhh.... (I think he became extinct)  |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
“Alvarez's classic book, "The Savage God," examines the religious, sociological, philosophical and literary aspects of suicide through the ages. In pagan Rome, suicide was habitual and considered an honorable way to die. In the Middle Ages, suicide was regarded with revulsion as a mortal sin. Dante, in his "Inferno," consigned suicides to the seventh circle of hell, below the burning heretics and murderers. Later on, the Romantics associated premature death with genius and they admired people who ended their lives while they were still at their artistic peak. Throughout history, mankind has viewed suicide as everything from an unforgivable crime of self-murder to the sad act of a person for whom living has become intolerable. In a more personal vein, Alvarez discusses the fascinating poet Sylvia Plath, with whom he was acquainted, as well as his own depression and attempted suicide. The section on Plath is superb. Alvarez was fond of Plath and he admired her work greatly. He reveals in a clear-eyed manner how the forces tearing her apart were stronger than those holding her together. "The Savage God" is an absorbing look at a subject often spoken of in whispers. Alvarez points out that people who lose parents at an early age are more likely to take their own lives. He also examines in depth the strong and mysterious link between creative genius and the impulse toward suicide. "The Savage God" is a work that sheds welcome light on the human condition in all of its complexity, yet Alvarez never presumes to provide easy answers to questions that are ultimately unanswerable.” http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393306577/qid=1100510951/sr =2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/104-1639118-9779910 |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
I personally suspect that any "positive" views of suicide in history have been marginal at best ... that is if we don't make the mistake of confusing suicide with martyrdom. (but I'm open to correction on this). Stephen. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
I'm not Brad ... But be assurred that equating his reference to extinction with suicide is about as far off the mark as any could go. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Quick definitions (extinct) adjective: of e.g. volcanos; permanently inactive (Example: "An extinct volcano") adjective: of a fire; being out or having grown cold (Example: "Threw his extinct cigarette into the stream") adjective: no longer in existence; lost or especially having died out leaving no living representatives (Example: "An extinct species of fish") |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Stephen, In the case of the Japanese you would be wrong. They have a very strong cultural admiration for suicide having little or nothing to do with martyrdom. John |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
John, give me something to go on ... Give me some references. I'm still quite skeptical of what you're saying. The only suicide that I remember as honorable in Japanese culture was one in battle. Didn't they believe it more honorable to die by one's own sword, than by their enemies? If so, that's a far cry from someone despairing of life and just ending it all. Stephen. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Wow. I always get so much more than I ask...but Ron is right, of course. But I am also interested in the suicide metaphor as applied to the arts, but I'm still hoping Brad would expound on his extinction theory for me. I see a vast difference in that one too. (I promise, Brad, laughing, this time I will not bite. It just has something to do with a little project I was working on, as an aside.) But when I have more time, John, I'll be sure to follow up, so thanks. (Sorry folks, serenity has the "new house" blues these days, so I am rather "hit and run" as I discover the idiosyncracies of a newly "renovated" cough-cough-choke home.  Maybe I'll try out my new dishwasher--izzit possible to trip a breaker and flood the house too? groan, I'll save that one for the alley... )More later!  |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Stephen, You’re comment was: “I personally suspect that any "positive" views of suicide in history have been marginal at best ...” Read about the 47 Ronin. http://victorian.fortunecity.com/duchamp/410/47ronin.html John |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Personally, John, I wouldn't interpret that as positive, though I can see how some people might. More importantly, though, I wouldn't interpret it as suicide. When a convicted felon allows himself to be strapped into the electric chair, or calmly walks into the gas chamber, it's typically not because they want to die. The Ronin were simply given a choice in how they might be executed, and they chose the path they felt was the least disagreeable. We now return this thread to it's original owner ... |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
um, thank you, although I don't mind the side topic. And I would have e mailed Brad, but he never answered me before, so...shrug and chuckle. sigh Honestly, I just wanted to know what he meant by that, but I'm willing to listen to what others THOUGHT he meant while I wait. I've been known to be persistant. (or izzat stubborn?) |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Ron, “When a convicted felon allows himself to be strapped into the electric chair, or calmly walks into the gas chamber, it's typically not because they want to die.” It was a little more painful than that. They knew what they were doing and the price . They surrendered themselves shortly after their act and having paid homage to their dead avenged lord. They were not considered criminals in the usual sense, (their way of death was intended to recognize that). To the Japanese it is one of the great stories. John P.S. Over the fields of last night’s snow— plum fragrance Okano Kin’emon Kanehide |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: John, the ritual suicide I read about was a punishment. Other than that it was a means for a Samurai warrior to avoid a more dishonorable death (at the hands of his enemy). That's a far cry from "honoring suicide". If it were really honored in that culture the way you suggest, it never would have been commanded as punishment. From my estimation, it was not seen as particularly honorable or desirable, but rather LESS dishonorable than other fates. Still a negative view of suicide, though perhaps less negative than that of the West. Stephen. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
John, Ron's right. This thread has been hijacked. Extinction does not suggest suicide, unless you want to say the dinosaurs all slit their wrists, or took a voluntary leap into the nearest volcanic crack. But suicide is actually a very interesting and needed topic of discussion. And since you're so good at starting multiple threads .... why don't you start one, so that they can go on talking about whatever it is that this thread is really about. What's it really about again? Stephen. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Gee, uh, well, no. It wasn't about suicide. I don't have time to go into the whole idea but look at it this way. A lot of people can and do quote Shakespeare without ever having read a play or a sonnet, without even knowing that he wrote what they are saying. It's the extinction of 'the author', not the extinction of the person. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Sorry, guys, but any thread suggesting suicide is anything but the symptom of disease that it is will have to be started on a different site. There are too many real people suffering from real depression to allow their trauma to be trivialized with speculations. If you want to play with a loaded gun, I'd appreciate you taking it out of this house. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Agreed, Ron. And yes, it was far from the reason I asked. (check your e mail?) I won't pursue my question again, unless you agree that my reasoning is indeed benign. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
You talking to me, Karen? Uh, you talking to ME? If so, I have no problem with your question (which I knew was never about suicide any way). FWIW, I largely disagree with Brad's thesis. I agree the idea usually (hopefully?) is larger than the author, and I recognize that time has a way of privileging the former over the latter, but I don't believe that phenomenon is ever a real goal, conscious or otherwise. Brad, I think, has simply stumbled on a new way to romanticize man's very mythical unselfish nature. The I in Idea should always be capitalized. 'Course, I'm willing to listen to more than a ten-second explanation, too. He might change my mind yet. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
Stephen, Will respect Ron’s wishes. You start the thread and let us know where. John |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Thanks Ron. And Brad? Looks like you have ten seconds, dude. Um. No pressure.  |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
John, I too will respect Ron's wishes. And I don't know of any better place than here to start a thread ... so we'll shelf it. Stephen. |
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