Americans are from Mars, Europeans from Venus

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Brad
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since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

0 posted 2003-02-08 04:57 AM

I think most already understand my general stance so I'll just post two or three telling quotes and leave it at that for the moment. The mere fact that I chose these quotes already tell you my opinion:

http://www.nyobserver.com/pages/book1.asp

Some good reasons why:

quote:
The anger we're seeing today is the product of two years of gratuitous unilateralism. After the attacks on NATO, the International Criminal Court, the Kyoto Protocol and the Geneva Convention, just to name a few, the administration has no political capital to call on when an issue like Iraq comes up.

But this probably won't happen:

quote:
He says the United States should "begin to show more understanding for the sensibilities of others, a little more of the generosity of spirit that characterized American foreign policy during the Cold War. It could pay its respects to multilateralism and the rule of law, and try to build some international political capital for those moments when multilateralism is impossible and unilateral action unavoidable." Some of Mr. Kagan¡¯s friends in Washington may read those words and conclude that he¡¯s been living in Brussels too long.

How many are still interested in Afghanistan:

quote:
But what happens after we use our hard power? Is America prepared to spend the money on peacekeeping that the Europeans are? Is it fair to say that hardened British peacekeepers who have worked in Northern Ireland, Bosnia, Kosovo and Afghanistan are from Venus? And what about the foreign assistance that¡¯s needed after a war in the Balkans, Afghanistan or Iraq? Who will be the big spender then?

And perhaps most telling:

quote:
Why does the United States spend less per capita on foreign aid than any other developed country?

[This message has been edited by Brad (02-08-2003 05:09 AM).]

Balladeer

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1 posted 2003-02-08 10:20 PM

LOL! An article quoted from James RUbin, Clinton's Asst. Secretary of State, knocking the Bush administration....what a surprise! Next thing you know Carvell will have something bad to say about the administration, too!!

Balladeer

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2 posted 2003-02-08 10:30 PM

If quotes from others are supposed to prove a point, allow me to introduce this one from - not a member of the administration or even a Republican - but Gordon Sinclair, a highly respected Canadian journalist whose words here have been introduced into the Canadian Congressional Record....

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.

You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those.

Stand proud, America! Wear it proudly!!"

Brad
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since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

3 posted 2003-02-09 02:48 AM

Except it was written in 1973. Ironically, it actually helps make my case as one of the above quotes stated:

quote:
He says the United States should "begin to show more understanding for the sensibilities of others, a little more of the generosity of spirit that characterized American foreign policy during the Cold War. It could pay its respects to multilateralism and the rule of law, and try to build some international political capital for those moments when multilateralism is impossible and unilateral action unavoidable."

Now, the quote is from Robert Kagan, not Rubin (It's from the book he's reviewing).

Kagan's credentials should stand up to your scrutiny:

quote:
Robert Kagan is a contributing editor at The Weekly Standard, the must-read magazine of the neoconservative movement. For years, his policy views have tracked those of Paul Wolfowitz, the Deputy Secretary of Defense, not to mention a cadre of other top Pentagon officials, most of the Vice President’s staff and a handful of political appointees at the State Department.

Michael, calm down a bit. I know your angry at me, but I'm really not a rabid anti-American (though I'm not exactly pro- either). I am however anti-unilateralism. Maybe I'm irritating, I don't know, I know I'm not perfect, and, yes, it is frustrating to try to explain my point to younger Koreans at least as much as it is to Americans, but this endless rhetorical posturing has just got to stop.

I think I'm trying to point out important points, not because I think we can shape policy, but because we are both citizens of a representative republic. It's our responsibility as citizens to grasp what's happening.

Unless you want to talk about changing the name of Christmas again. I lose it on that one.

[This message has been edited by Brad (02-09-2003 03:02 AM).]

Balladeer

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4 posted 2003-02-09 07:25 PM

Yes, Brad, you are right...I HAVE been angry - not something I care to admit because I don't know you that well to allow you such power...yet I have indeed had my buttons pushed by your words and attitude. Recently a poet posted a poem "The Dogs of War", villifying Bush and the other leaders of the administration. Does that bother me? Not in the slightest. He has a beef with Bush..he writes about it. He has that right. You should see some of the things I wrote about Clinton. Your posts, however, give the impression that your problem and insults are aimed, not at a person, but at America as a country. Yes, when backed to the wall, you say your problem is with the administration but you attack America as a country. You go over years and years of everything you think America has done wrong. You speak of Castro. I don't know how old you are but that was in my time. Castro was the darling of the world when he appeared on the scene. I watched him on the Ed Sullivan show. Everyone loved him. I'm certain that, if he had stood on Ed's stage and said "I will be a cruel dictator in Cuba, eliminate all personal freedoms, and rule the country with an iron fist" people might have had a different idea of him but he didn't. All of that came afterward so to Monday-morning quarterback and throw that into America's face as a huge failure is not realistic. You have spent a lot of time listing all of the bad points but have given no space to the good ones. You have said nothing about all of the good America has done in the world, all of the generosity and help we have shown other countries or any positive influences and differences we have made in the world. Reading your words gives the impression that we live here with no rights in a police state controlled by a gestapo-like FBI who watches our every move and at any time men in trenchcoats can whisk away neighbors in the dead of night, never to be seen again. I could expect this from a foreigner whose only source of information is state-controlled news agencies but, as an American, you know for a fact it is simply not true. You paint America, not Bush, with an evil brush and create a biased canvas filled with quips and innuendos. You may claim that is not your intent at all but read your posts...it's all there.

I know you live in a foreign country. So did I, for many years. How you can look at the way some of those people are forced to live and not think of all of the freedoms and opportunities and general safety you were allowed to grow up in and still not bless America for what it is, I cannot understand. Disaagree with individual leaders? Oh, yes. I will speak against idiots like Clinton and Gore until my dying breath....but you will never hear me speak against America. Yet that's what I hear from you. Perhaps it is because we are part of a community here with poets from many countries, many who have never been to the United States to see how we live, talked to the average American family or hear our outlooks on life first-hand. I would hate for them to think that your personally-altered views of this country might have some validity since, as an American, you should know. That would be a shame.

You are correct, though. The bickering should stop and I shall. Feel free to write anything about our country you wish. America does not need me to defend it. I shall go back to other safer topics to discuss....like religion...or Christmas.

Brad
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since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

5 posted 2003-02-09 09:54 PM

I don't really know where you've gotten most of that and I don't really have the time right now to address them specifically. However, you said:

quote:
How you can look at the way some of those people are forced to live and not think of all of the freedoms and opportunities and general safety you were allowed to grow up in and still not bless America for what it is,

and

quote:
I could expect this from a foreigner whose only source of information is state-controlled news agencies

This is the problem I have. I lived in Japan for four years and have lived in South Korea for seven. Neither of these comments apply to either country. Now, if I point this out, or if you think about it for five seconds, you'll see it. However, I believe the base assumption of many, of most, Americans is to condescend to the rest of the world.

I'll explain how I think this works for Americans who hate America later.

Two anecdotes:

The last time I was in America, a friend looked at me and said, "Brad, come back to the real world and get a real job!"

A British friend of mine shared this story with me:

He was in San Francisco and mentioned to an American guy that he was going to British Columbia for the weekend. The guy looked at him quizzically and my British friend said,

"You know, in Canada."

"Where's Canada?"

Again, five seconds of thought can cure this but I don't see that five seconds. I don't have a problem with America, I have a problem with Americans who don't take that five seconds.

Balladeer

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6 posted 2003-02-09 11:07 PM

I also lived in Japan where I taught in a Japanese high school. I saw the children growing up, their lifestyles, their homelives, their opportunities and I can assure you that, to me, those comments certainly do apply. I also lived in Venezuela for seven years..a beautiful country. Mountains, deserts, a wealthy country with oil and a host of natural minerals, progressive and modern - but, if you were in trouble, you did not call the police. In auto wrecks the fire dept or police, whichever arrived first, would strip the victims of their jewelry and wallets first. If you were smart you did not engage in any political discussions. There is a game some play there. There are many motorcycles and sometimes people in cars have sawed-off broom handles that they try to tip the motorcycles over or stick them between the spokes while driving. You didn't wear jewelry or expensive clothing, like tennis shoes, in public because you would be robbed. The traffic was insane because no driving laws were enforced and there were long lines no matter where you went. I was cut in a baseball game one time and taken to the hospital. I was placed on a stretcher in an outside hallway next to an old guy covered with blood. After an hour of me bleeding non-stop, the doctor came out and said they would take care of me then. I asked about the old man and the doctor said that he was a hit-and-run victim who had been laying there for 8 hours already and could wait a little longer. After seven years I returned to the states and, on my first night back, I was sitting in a Pancake House restaurant at 3 AM. The waitress was pleasant. I looked out of the big plate glass window to see a basically empty well-illuminated avenue, clean of debris. Occasionally I saw a police car pass by. I remember smiling and thinking "Thank God........."

You use an example of one dumb American who did not know where Canada was to make some kind of point? If so, I don't get it..

At any rate, enough has been said. You have your insights - I have mine. Life goes on...

[This message has been edited by Balladeer (02-09-2003 11:10 PM).]

Stephanos

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since 2000-07-31

Posts 3618
Statesboro, GA, USA

7 posted 2003-02-10 07:46 PM

Balladeer,

A nation that is never self critical is making a fatal mistake. Pride goes before a fall. Much of the patriotic furor I see reminds me of Ancient Rome, which was also blind to it's own coming demise. I say this not as a hater of America, but as one who loves America very much. I was born here and never lived anywhere else. I have to say that all in all, though I don't agree with him on every point, Brad is not anti-American. He makes some points which should at least be considered before pigeonholing him.

Stephen.

Balladeer

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8 posted 2003-02-10 08:55 PM

Stephan, I appreciate your viewpoint. Believe me, I have seen the other side of the coin. I have lived in several countries - not as a tourist but as a resident. I've learned their languages, their customs and their ways of life. I have also seen the "ugly" Americans, the tourists who come and act as if they own the world, as if their needs are all that matter. I wanted to strangle every one of them. They took no time to learn or respect the customs of the local residents...they were loud, boisterous and demanding and made me ashamed to be an American. I have also seen the lack of desire to understand the world. I had to smile at Brad's comment about the Californian who didn't know where Canada was. I'm from a small farming town in Missouri. Once, when I returned home for a short visit from Venezuela, one of the old farmers at the local bar said "Venezuela? Is that in Africa?" LOL! So it is not an isolated case. In many parts of the US, people do not study other areas of the world. In European countries, children learn several languages due to being bordered by so many countries. They learn English because English is a dominant language in the world, especially in technology and movies. They are experts in geography. The US is isolated in a geographical sense. There are no attached neighbors surrrounding the country - yes, Canada is there but they look just Americans and even speak English. Americans, especially in the Midwest, have never needed to have a "world" education. They just continue to work their farms with the only knowledge of Korea, Japan and Taiwan as places that make lots of trinkets. I would like to grab them by their collective collars and scream to learn about the world but I doubt they will...and that is a downfall to them. I have also seen what other countries think of the United States...good and bad. I have agreed with them on many points. Yes, America has weak points along with strong ones...perhaps it's partly blamed on the self-sufficiency we have enjoyed and the lack of interest in other cultures except as curiosities. That is also detrimental to us and may be very damaging in the long run. Brad could very well be experiencing some of the same things I experienced. Once in Venezuela a newspaper reported that two men got married in California, the first gay marriage performed in the US. All I heard was "Is that's what happening in the states? The men are marrying each other now?"...as if that one isolated incident defined the normal....and I was supposed to explain it to them! LOL! Not easy...Everything that appeared in mewspapers about America or Americans I was put in a position of having to explain, or excuse or justify.

No, I don't call Brad anti-American even when he claims to be "not pro-American". I have simply not agreed on the way the message has been stated...the claiming to have no rights, innuendos about the FBI, claiming that voting is useless anymore - subjects that are simply untrue which he well knows. I did not accept it from residents of other lands and I won't accept it from an American...it leaves me no choice but to speak out against it, which I have done.

I shall now, like a old soldier, fade away...

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

9 posted 2003-02-10 09:07 PM

But where did I say those things?

Please show me where and I'll most happily recant or explain what I meant.

Balladeer

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10 posted 2003-02-10 09:25 PM

I don't believe in a democracy
that only works for the criminal

I don't vote anymore
electoral college
flordia
confirmed my suspicions

I am using my
last freedom to write this
-if that still exists

knock knock
FBI
can we speak to you?

Brad
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since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

11 posted 2003-02-10 09:29 PM

I didn't write that.

Oh and by the way, ignorance doesn't bother me. We are all ignorant about something or other, no way out of it. No, it's that Americans are proud of their ignorance. That's what bothers me.

Balladeer

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12 posted 2003-02-10 09:41 PM

You didn't write that???? Brad, those are direct quotes from your poem America...you didn't write it?

Brad
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since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

13 posted 2003-02-10 10:14 PM

I've never written a poem called 'America'. To be honest, it's too big for me to even think about writing a poem about America. Besides Ginsberg's already done it.

Curious though, is it, perhaps, Brad Majors?

Give me a link?

Balladeer

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14 posted 2003-02-10 10:22 PM

Well, I must confess that there have been few times in my life where I have felt more foolish and apologetic than I do now. Yes, it was Brad Majors and somehow in my mind I had associated that poem with you. All I can do is stand with hat in hand and apologize for such an incredible screw-up.

Believe me, I am one American who is NOT proud of my ignorance...my apologies to you.

Brad
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since 1999-08-20

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Jejudo, South Korea

15 posted 2003-02-10 10:45 PM

Of course, of course. These things happen.

It's funny though. The only way I know how to fix these things is to keep talking. If we agree to disagree, if we say you have your point, I have mine, it only escalates the problem.

Don't suppose you want to go back and look at the article again?

Balladeer

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16 posted 2003-02-11 12:17 PM

OK, out of deference to my screw-up I have re-read it in the most unbiased way I know...

"The anger we're seeing today is the product of two years of gratuitous unilateralism. After the attacks on NATO, the International Criminal Court, the Kyoto Protocol and the Geneva Convention, just to name a few, the administration has no political capital to call on when an issue like Iraq comes up."

I have to plead ignorance here because I cannot bring to mind the attacks on all of those organizations he is referring to. If there is any info around I would have to see it before making an evaluation.

As far as NATO is concerned my opinion is that it is, and always has been, a fairly worthless organization, high in ideals and non-existant in substance...much like its predesessor the League of Nations. It has made investigations, passed rules, issued warnings but not enforced anything. One would think that it would have a wealth of power with so many countries aligned together. It hasn't worked out that way as Hussein has made crystal clear the past decade. I can certainly understand their concern with a man like George Bush coming on the scene. Politicians are used to their own brand of speech, low on substance but always polite and never demeaning. Here comes W riding on the scene like a Texas cowboy shooting from the hip pointing out that, if they do not enforce the rules they pass, they are worthless, that if they do not join in the enforcement of their rules he will do it without them and they can go play in a sandbox somewhere. This attitude goes against all of the "Speak politely in Political Circles" handbooks and they don't know how to handle it. David Niven would be shocked. The flip side of this is that I don't think Hussein quite knows what to make of it, either. He has gotten so used to jerking the watchfob chain of every politician in NATO and getting away with it that Bush worries him...the loose cannon who is telling NATO to join him or get lost, that he will do it himself if necessary. This is a first. I think that is the main reason that he is slowly giving in to concessions...George W is not blinking. Personally I applaud it and feel that's exactly what NATO needs to have said to them. Maybe it will wake them up and send them on the way to being what they were supposed to be. Yes, of course that type of attitude will spawn a flurry of negative comments from the old school that diplomacy is simply not handled that way. They will condemn Bush for his lack of diplomatic sensitivity and his "cowboy diplomacy". Fine with me. Bush is showing that he will not be fooled, he will not be coerced and he will not accept anything less than results. Hussein is trying to use the same old "bait and switch" tactics that have worked so well in the past and Bush ain't buying. If that makes him "insensitive" to the European community then so be it. I don't think it does. I think that secretly they are applauding him and urging him on while still trying to maintain the aristotical posture they are supposed to assume. I happen to admire him for his steadfast and unwavering stand.

Brad
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since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

17 posted 2003-02-11 04:04 PM

What is striking is when you compare Dubya to his father (Clinton was not a strong internationalist). Now, Bush Sr. wasn't against using strong language as well. At one point in Japan, he simply asked if you wanted an American presence there or not. The Japanese government immediately said that they wanted us to stay, but this rhetoric is the same sort of no-nonsense approach that you applaud in Dubya.

Why such a difference in reaction then and now?

Part of the problem is 911. Ten to fifteen years ago the big thing was Japan bashing, Japan was trying to rule the world through unfair business tactics. They were mindless automatons who lived in rabbit dens; dangerous, unfeeling men who bought our land, our movie studios, even our women, but not our rice.

In this context, the direct question made perfect sense for the Japanese were arrogant. Many really did think for a moment that they had it all figured out. Kaifu questioned American ethics, Nakasone laughed at American soldiers who couldn't afford to leave their ships, and somebody, I forget who, said that America's problems stemmed from too many blacks and hispanics.

With this kind of thing going on, it was natural to see this as a slap in the face. It is natural, I think on both the personal and political levels, to feel jaded when someone who you are helping, even if you only think that you are helping, even if you are only offering help, tells you it doesn't matter. Maybe it was time to leave. Now, nobody really believed it, everybody knew the question was for show, but it was the right time and the right place to ask such a question.

Conversely, after 911 we had the moral high ground, we had the world on our side, people wanted to help us. What was the line from the French woman?

"We are all Americans today."

Yet, the administration squandered this opportunity. They didn't just ignore it, they blatantly told Europe and the rest of the world that it didn't really matter if you helped or not, this is what we are going to do. If you want to come along, great, but don't get in the way.

Is it any wonder there is resentment right now?

It's not that simple of course. Anti-American feeling has been around a long time (and Clinton didn't do much to soften it either), but international diplomacy isn't about telling the truth, it's about getting other countries to do what you want. Dubya's dad was pretty good at that, but he lost the election. It would be foolish for Dubya not to recognize that, but it seems to me just as foolish to completely ignore the successes of his father. Many people point to the fact that dad didn't finish the job in Iraq, but I remember that day. I thought it was the right choice to stop then and I still think it is now.

We had and maintained the moral high ground.

Much of what happens next will depend on what happens in Iraq. As I've said before, if the Iraqi people see Americans as liberators, America will be in a stronger position internationally. If not, if this becomes another Somalia, we have no one to blame but ourselves.

A less abrasive diplomacy, a more united front, would be one way to lessen the blow if we've calculated wrong.

But nothing works better in diplomacy than success.

Local Rebel
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since 1999-12-21

Posts 5767
Southern Abstentia

18 posted 2003-02-12 12:18 PM

Um...you might want to substitute the UN for NATO in your last speech there Deer....

The funny thing about this thread is that Brad's observations (ie: 'I don't see people's living conditions or freedoms worse than in America (paraphrased)) actually make Deer's point that America does good (as in rebuilding Japan and South Korea.)

Deer's observations actually enforce Brad's point that we have a long way to go.

And just for the record -- no the FBI doesn't look up everybody's skirt because there are too many everybodies -- but -- with the homeland security bill and the patriot act they can -- and do -- look up anybody's skirt -- and anyone , citizen or not, can be held at any time without any rights whatsoever if the administration decides they are an enemy combatant. All of this may sit well with someone who likes Dubya and Ashcroft -- But would you want Bill and Janet to have those powers??? HUH?

I think there is also a disconnect between being patriotic about the nation of America and disliking the actions of the United States of America -- catch the difference?

[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (02-12-2003 12:31 AM).]

Balladeer

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19 posted 2003-02-12 12:44 PM

LOL! RIght you are, LR...too many abbreviations for this small mind to keep track of..

For those who consider themselves important enough (or unlucky enough) for the FBI to take an interest in, yes they would be concerned..the reality is that most of us are simply too insignificant to bother with.

Yes, there is a gigantic difference between being non-patriotic and simply being critical of US actions. One can be both - one should be both if moral interpretation dictates - however that would mean crossing party lines which it appears few are willing to do, at least publicly....and that's a shame.

Thanks for the correction

winston
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since 2002-12-19

Posts 204
NW of Eden

20 posted 2003-02-12 12:24 PM

Balladeer, hope you don't mind me saying this. Is what you wrote about Clinton in the Adult forum?

If it is, then am being deprived of my constitutional and democratic right to read it.
As an individualist artist, am not gonna have any kinda faith in any politicians.

It's amazing I won. I was running against peace, prosperity, & incumbency.
--G. "DUBYA" BUSH. June 14, 2001. Unaware of rolling TV camera.

Balladeer

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21 posted 2003-02-12 08:36 PM

No, winston, my Clinton endeavors never graced these forums, not even "Monica and Her Magic Harmonica"

There was nothing "Adult" about Slick Willie anyway..

winston
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since 2002-12-19

Posts 204
NW of Eden

22 posted 2003-02-13 07:56 AM

"Monica and her magic harmonica." LOL. I've got one that involves a cigar.

It's amazing I won. I was running against peace, prosperity, & incumbency.
--G. "DUBYA" BUSH. June 14, 2001. Unaware of rolling TV camera.

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