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Philosophy 101
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this was suggested by a friend to be brought up
| Philosophy 101 |
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this was suggested by a friend to be brought up |
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Crash&Burn Member
since 2001-01-18
Posts 119 |
There are people in this world we dare call mad, yet the truth of this confusing reality is that these are the only ones who are sane. They see the world with truthfull eyes for they cannot lie to themselves their reality is limited in their own view. This is why they'll never lie, never holding back on their urges. They can hurt others in their reality and we, who call ourselves healthy of the mind, the "right" people that should inhabit this world, decide to encarcelate those we call mad, on the charge that THEY are hurting others. Still I believe we must analize ourselves first, because by our singular use of words we are able to hurt and destroy more than one called mad, ever would. I see the darkness coming all is bleak… :odor: |
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Allan Riverwood
since 2001-01-04
Posts 3502Winnipeg |
A friend? Aww... *is touched*  Well I think that we should really look at how cruel we are being as a society as of late, as opposed to what the offenders are doing. We don't realize these people are, in some cases, simply ill and in need of help. We call them "mad," and "dangerous," and lock them away. It all goes to show the harshness of society towards people who are different. It is difficult to accept something that is foreign or strange to us. This is one of the most profound flaws in human nature. Hope to see more takes on this. ~Allan Stupidity makes the world go around...and people like us laugh. ~~Elizabeth, to Allan |
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Swamp¤Faeryie Member
since 2000-12-04
Posts 393fairyland....of course;) |
Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *see quote* there is a fine fine line between so called "mad" and genius. sometimes they even merge!! sammio much madness is divinest sense,and much sense the starkest madness~Emily Dickinson |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Are you sure you want this in the philosophy forum? Do you want me to transfer this to the Dark forum? If you want it here, you're going to have to start defining terms. Truth? Reality? "Right"? They? And that's just a start. Brad |
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Ina Senior Member
since 2000-10-09
Posts 1236Quebec, Canada |
Ahhhhhhh.........I loved it! O wow! this is my dream. Ok....im a quazi anarchist, right. and people call me mad, crazy everything. And your so right, that ppl who think they are "right" and all sorts of garbage like that, well they cause more damage then one "crazy" person, like me does. This is a definit elibary piece. Regina |
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Crash&Burn Member
since 2001-01-18
Posts 119 |
It's a simple prose writing and defenitions are to be interpreted by each person individually I believe this is what make a world interesting Sammio, if that is your name, I thank you you've come to the realisation of the meaning I wished to portay thanx for posting. I see the darkness coming all is bleak...  [This message has been edited by Crash&Burn (edited 03-07-2001).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Okay, I guess this is what you want. What is society as opposed to the individual? Why is a society wrong and the individual misunderstood? If mad and genius are the same thing, why do we make a distinction? All three are making huge assumptions here but if you want to discuss this here, I'm willing. I don't think you'll like it though.  Brad |
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Dopey Dope
Moderator
Member Patricius
since 2000-08-30
Posts 11132San Juan, Puerto Rico |
Nicely done here jorge........My thoughts on this are too elaborate to post....so i'm just gonna give you a pat on the back.  I was born myself, raised myself, and will continue to be myself. The world will just have to adjust. I'm in love with my shadow I admire it daily |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
If everybody can interpret it the way they want, then it doesn't mean anything. Because it means everything. Brad |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
and fix the spelling. |
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Crash&Burn Member
since 2001-01-18
Posts 119 |
well ok Brad I'll take your discussion on I wont be online much longer though but I'll answer your questions.....I am no saying all society is wrong so take heed in your generalization, and if you ask me why is a madman misunderstood all I can tell you is that these we do call mad are unplugged and mostly unaffected by this world we live in yet they still exist and are able to affect parts of society in ways we'll not always understand, since we cannot look and experience directly what this so called individual, comprehesion of his reasons to be violent or quiet or even pshycotic are yet beyond our comprehension. After taking the individual through therapy or other such mindless activities we, society, might get to comprehend just a little of what his intetions or purposes really were. So because society does not understand they classify them as mad also beleived to be beyond comprehension. Now about the being mad or genious this is more or less what I've already explained, you could think of anything but you, having a world around you, will be affected be what surrounds you in your deciscions yet if unplugged from the world with only one stream of thinking you will be able to realize much more because you are unaffected by what surrounds you. We make distinctions because we cannot understand, and we cannot understand we fear, society is not ready for something different because of the attachment to a so called nice and pleasant world of theirs were everything is good and right, because this subject integrates deep into society I wished to post this here I hoped I answered your questions. Oh and as for the spelling English is not my first language and I think you are smart enough to interpret correctly whant I'm trying to say so deal with it. I see the darkness coming all is bleak... [This message has been edited by Crash&Burn (edited 03-07-2001).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Ina, Please get the terms right (or explain your adjustment). You are, from the comments you've made, most definitely not an anarchist. I might concede nihilist if I thought you understood the historical context of the word. Dopey, If your thoughts are too elaborate to post, why say that (wasn't that a thought?)? My guess is that your thoughts are too confused to post. Have you seen the lengths of some of our discussions? If you pat someone on the back before anything has been said, this is the wrong forum to do it in. Brad |
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Crash&Burn Member
since 2001-01-18
Posts 119 |
*waiting reply*........ I see the darkness coming all is bleak... [This message has been edited by Crash&Burn (edited 03-07-2001).] |
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Dopey Dope
Moderator
Member Patricius
since 2000-08-30
Posts 11132San Juan, Puerto Rico |
Thank you for your words of wisdom Brad....maybe crash&burn is a school friend of mine and I REALLY do not feel like typing this long message on what jorge will already know what I'll be saying. I just wanted to acknowledge that I read the post because he asked me to, and I think I have a right to do so.....thanks for reading. -Mr. Dopey- I was born myself, raised myself, and will continue to be myself. The world will just have to adjust. I'm in love with my shadow I admire it daily |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I'm trying to work while I read this so I understand time problems. Please, don't play this silly emotional game unless you actually mean it. I'll take you seriously but it doesn't end today and it may never end. If you have issues, then let's do it. If you are trying to one-up me or anybody else, do not think for one moment that anything you've said is convincing. If this is an emotional fervor thing, please just post it somewhere else (such things bore me -- and probably many of the (very few) regular posters here. Your comments also show me nothing more than that you are a typical American and that you know nothing besides typical American ideology). I'll stop the typos thing if you're serious. Do you want to do this? Brad |
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Crash&Burn Member
since 2001-01-18
Posts 119 |
I know nothing of typical american ideollogy because I'm not american and I haven't begon to explore the world as a full adult so I'm sorry if you find my defense unconvicing but that's all I have and as close to phylosophy as I comprehend because I haven't majored or studied it....I just posted a thought...and wished to hear what people thought of it nothing more so stop trying to analyze a thought so much...becasue that's all it is, oh and by the way I reccomend you see a movie Quills you'd like the character I think he fits you. Well unlike you time is different here and I am getting tired so if this is no to end today becasue you wish to pursue the argument go ahead I'll see if I get around to answer it some day. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
You mention that you're not a native speaker. Fair enough (I can't imagine making as few mistakes as you have, as quickly you have, if I were writing in Korean). Where are you from? Brad |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Did I say American ideology stops at the border of America? As a non-American, you should know better than that. Brad |
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Crash&Burn Member
since 2001-01-18
Posts 119 |
But you did not say your were talking of the world, you said american and I'm sorry but america is not the world last time I checked. About my English what can I say maybe I spend to much time in sites like these learing or watching to much TV, you tend to catch on quickly if you pay attetion |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I said you sounded like an American (a typical American actually). I did not mention the world (last time I checked you're thoughts didn't involve such a generalization as well). Don't play these games with me. I've been outside my own culture (America --California) for too long. Have you ventured outside yours? Are you from Puerto Rico? Um, has Puerto Rico seceded and nobody told me? Brad PS Are you arguing no American influence in your country? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Well, this little bout seems to be over. Crash and Burn, Was secede the right word? I did some quick research on PR and I'm not sure (Hell, I'm not even sure you're Puerto Rican yet). Guys (gender nuetral), Ask questions here if you want. I encourage you to understand what we're doing here. I encourage you to post ideas here. Do not expect to be validated, we want thinkers, not propagandists. C and B, You said I should begin the debate. What debate? I don't understand what you mean. If you wish to continue, it's your turn. If you wish to discuss these things, post them here. If you wish to assert unfounded axioms without repercussion, wrong place guys. Brad |
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Swamp¤Faeryie Member
since 2000-12-04
Posts 393fairyland....of course;) |
ooooh i am astounded at the abrasive atmosphere this post has taken on...geez louise,ever feel that someone is jumping down your throat with their beleifs? ouch this started off pretty harmless if you ask me.phew. Anyhow c&b some people get it,somepeople don't,i guess you could call that having an opinion.The people labeled as mad or weird are always the ones who know what you mean,but the others...well it's like 2 entirely seperate worlds. I am one of the so-called crazies. I'm not crazy,i'm just open to differnt things,and the experience fascinates me i've read alot about the connections between madness and genius/art and misery. And yes i do feel there is one,a strong strong connection!!And just so i'm not attacked for generalization i should point out i don't beleive all madness is genius,all genius madness,all art from pain,or all pain from art. Is that very clear? i just think there's often times a connection between them. It's phenomenal like god and the devil all inside one person,the ability to comprehend and create great things and the price of being outcast by society or plagued by a mental disability. Icould go on and on,as i have already in past posts,and i'm sure brad is sick of reading all this "crap",but like i say.....2 worlds. sam much madness is divinest sense,and much sense the starkest madness~Emily Dickinson |
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Allan Riverwood
since 2001-01-04
Posts 3502Winnipeg |
Brad- I don't think the powers of a Moderator allow you insight into one's belief system. Regina made one sentence, and from that you think you can tell her entire set of principles? Well I don't think that anyone has the right to tell someone else who they are. She is quite certain of her terms. All that she ~SAID~ was that she is often labeled incorrectly, or called "Mad," for what she believes. And how can this possibly allow you to assume anything about her? As for C&B, I'm sure he simply wanted a friendly discussion, and perhaps didn't choose the right forum for it, but that is no reason to treat him so poorly. Dopey likes people to know when he reads their things. And sometimes it is nice to know who is reading what you post, even if all they say is "I read it. Seems like a good point." Now three good friends of mine have all been subject to your cruelty here, for no real reason whatsoever. I'd say you owe them an apology, but if I were them I wouldn't waste my time listening to one so instead I'll just say that I won't be returning to YOUR corner of Passions in Poetry for a very long time. Thank you, I've said my piece. A good, long reply. Hope you enjoyed it, my friend. ~Allan Stupidity makes the world go around...and people like us laugh. ~~Elizabeth, to Allan |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
The "powers" of a Moderator do not allow me to do much of anything. I question much of what you ask (cruelty? I disagree. Are you sure you want to connect the two?). Again, I will tell you that none of you are truly ready for this forum. I don't believe I have been cruel (unless you believe that cruelty means disagreement). You are afraid of this because you haven't thought about it enough (Oh yeah, that's right, you're teens. I'm supposed to be nice to you. Sorry, the game stops here!!!!). I was a teen and I remember looking for a place like this. A place that isn't going to play with you, that isn't going to tell you nice job or you will understand someday. You begin now. I remember it and what you ask me to do is silly. If you wish to argue, no problem. If you wish validation -- wrong forum. When I was a teen, this is what I wanted (It's why I know what I do). Perhaps you need to reconsider what you actually mean? Stop playing games people, and start using your brains. The buck ends here. Brad |
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Allan Riverwood
since 2001-01-04
Posts 3502Winnipeg |
I'd like to discuss this with you privately. Do you have ICQ, AIM, (or does the word "america" scare you too much?) MSN or anything? Or shall we simply swap emails? I would really like a private conversation with you, outside of Passions, if you don't mind. Set hostility aside, and as you would have it, speak with our brains. The buck stops here, but just in the walls of the forum. ~Allan Stupidity makes the world go around...and people like us laugh. ~~Elizabeth, to Allan |
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Allan Riverwood
since 2001-01-04
Posts 3502Winnipeg |
I would really love to await a reply (no sarcasm, I would) but I have to be going to bed now. Please email me at least, Brad. I would really like to speak to you. Stupidity makes the world go around...and people like us laugh. ~~Elizabeth, to Allan |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
The game has begun. If you don't get the e-mail, please tell me here. Brad |
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fractal007 Senior Member
since 2000-06-01
Posts 1958 |
Brad: I agree with you with regards to concerns about propaganda. But perhaps we should start a new thread here, because I have a slight disagreement with you. "Oh yeah, that's right, you're teens. I'm supposed to be nice to you. Sorry, the game stops here!!!!). I was a teen and I remember looking for a place like this." I find this rather offensive in its implication. Perhaps I am reading you wrong here, but are you saying that teens are incapable of thought and conscious comprehension beyond simple teen things? Perhaps its this autism of mine, but while I was a teen[well, I guess I still am, since I'm 19 right now] I often thought and read about astronomy and debated with people about things such as evolution, church and state separation and the such. Maybe that's not intelligent stuff to discuss. I dunno. Of course, I'm not exactly a normal teen as I've already told you, with the autism and all. I suspect that you may have certain stereotypes, however I do not wish to label them on teens in general. Instead, I will post my own life's rebuttals of them. 1. Teens think about sex often and this clouds their rational thought. OK, firstly, let me just say that these are my own wordings here. In my life sex has been nothing more than an archaic evolutionary mechanism for propagating this species. Because of this, it has become about as important to me as a dirty blank scrap of paper on the floor. Sure, feelings of lust often crawl into my mind, but I deal with them in a rational manner. My rational stand: The human race has no need for further defense through propagation. I therefore see no need to assist in such a defense. Besides, my genes probably aren't all that special anyway. 2. Teens always try to cause trouble Actually, I must confess, I was cynical of most fellow teens in my youth. I felt as though I was the only one who didn't want to cause trouble. This was most likely some form of mild delusion. 3. Teens don't have any good ideas or thoughts. I had better ideas and thoughts than some thirty year olds when I was 14 years old. They actually acknowledged this. So, although I may not be able to compete with someone of great intellectual standing, such as yourself, I don't have a stupid mind, nor do I expect you to treat me nicely. I expect you to treat me as someone who is trying to unravel the answers to big questions. Being treated nice has nothing to do with this. Perhaps I have been wasting my breath here, but I felt that this needed to be said. Maybe I will end up falling into the same category in your mind. Maybe I already am there... Although I felt it rather odd to see a poem posted in the philosophy forum, I still feel that a philosophical discussion on things such as the individual as opposed to society is quite warranted, considering the forum at which this piece was posted. "If history is to change, let it change. If the world is to be destroyed, so be it. If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh" -- Magus |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
My concerns with teens are relatively small. I am interested in what people think. If you wish to say something, say it. Do not pretend that something is cruel because you disagree, that something is horrible because you disagree, that something is somehow wrong because you disagree-- start thinking, please. Start planning your thoughts. Please start to ask me questions if age really matters here. Right now, I don't care how old you are. Brad |
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Allan Riverwood
since 2001-01-04
Posts 3502Winnipeg |
I didn't get the email. Please note my address is wayfinder00@hotmail.com which means the last two characters are zeroes, not Os. I've seen people have trouble with this before. Thanks for your time. See you when I do. ~Allan Stupidity makes the world go around...and people like us laugh. ~~Elizabeth, to Allan |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Your address doesn't seem to work (5 times)but mine does. Your turn now. You want to talk, it's your turn. Brad |
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Allan Riverwood
since 2001-01-04
Posts 3502Winnipeg |
Okies.  Stupidity makes the world go around...and people like us laugh. ~~Elizabeth, to Allan |
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Allan Riverwood
since 2001-01-04
Posts 3502Winnipeg |
It's in the mail. Hope this works.  Stupidity makes the world go around...and people like us laugh. ~~Elizabeth, to Allan |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
In a sense, this thread brings up the question of why this forum even exists. I mean, why would we want a Philosophy forum on a site that is obviously dedicated to writing? In what way are the two linked? Philosophy was, in fact, one of the original five forums created at Passions, predating both the Adult forum (which was the first one created after we opened) and Teen (the second one created, just a day after Adult). And, just as Adult and Teen were different sides of the same equation, Philosophy 101 was created to help balance another of our original forums - Feelings. The Feelings forum represented the emotional side of our nature, while Philosophy represented the rational side. That's not to suggest the two can ever be entirely separated, but if you stop to think about it, those are really the only two things we ever explore in our writing. Feelings and thought comprise our entire Universe. Learning to feel is easy (though hardly simple). From that first moment we escape the womb, and probably long before, our senses and emotions are linked in a dance that quickly defines our nature. We hurt, we hunger, we find relief. We love. Learning to think isn't as natural to us as feeling, but it defines our nature just as much as emotion. Some might argue more. Rationality, after all, is perhaps the only thing differentiating us from animals, who otherwise share our more common emotions. Yet, in spite of that, thinking requires effort. Without effort, our thoughts and rational mind cannot be divorced from our emotions, and what we "think" is too often just a mirror reflection of what we "feel." Is that necessarily a bad thing? It depends entirely on what you want to accomplish. Just as Feeling and Thought comprise our Universe, our purpose in communication is equally divided (though never entirely separated). We write either to share our feelings or to convince others of our beliefs. And, yea, that's a gross over-simplifications, but that's still the essence of writing. Feelings. Thoughts. When you post your words in one of the forums here, part of the reader's job is to discern your purpose. Surprisingly, that's usually not as difficult as it might seem. But this is one of those instances where I suspect purpose has been misread. Had I read Crash&Burn's words in the Prose forum, or perhaps in Teen, I would have assumed them an expression of feelings. "This is the way I feel sometimes, and this is the result of those feelings." I may or may not have ever shared those feelings, I might or might not be able to understand them, but at no point can I really argue them. Had they been posted in Critical Analysis, I might have suggested that "showing" is more effective than "telling," and that effective imagery is a useful tool for evoking emotion, but I couldn't very well debate the validity of the feelings. They exist. The problem, of course, is that I didn't read the words in Prose, Teen, or CA. I read them in Philosophy 101, which is expressly set aside for discussing issues that, by their very nature, center around rational thought. I have to assume, since the words are posted in this forum, that Crash&Burn is trying to convince me that mad people are sane and dangerous people should be allowed to continue hurting others. I actually believe there is some truth to the hypothesis, especially the last sentence he wrote, but that certainly doesn't mean I'm going to accept it at face value. I'm going to ask for clarification (let's define our terms) and probably want to express an opposing view. If you shut me down by saying the words should mean anything I want (oh, you're talking about angry people, not insane ones) or refuse to listen to my viewpoint, I'm going to feel you are breaking the rules that rational thought depends upon. I'm going to feel cheated. And, yes, rational thinking - or what we often call critical thinking - has rules. You may not agree with them, you may not even follow them, but unless you recognize their existence there can be no possible discussion. You might as well throw a German and a Swede in a room and expect them to communicate by sign language. Indeed, they will probably have more in common than two men, one discussing Feelings and the other concentrating on Logic. I'm quite sure the German and Swede will experience far less frustration, and probably less bruising. The first requirement for Critical Thinking is one Teens often have in abundance - skepticism. The willingness to question the norm is crucial. But it's not enough. Skepticism, by itself, just labels a person "Mary, Mary, quite contrary," and rarely convinces. It doesn't raise awareness, only hackles, doesn't bring about change, only frustration. Question the norm, by all means. But be willing, also, to explore where those questions might take you. Not incidentally, since I think we're all here to learn better ways to communicate, the best writing usually takes a healthy measure from both plates. The best writing shares emotion and convinces. |
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Swamp¤Faeryie Member
since 2000-12-04
Posts 393fairyland....of course;) |
okay,lemee get this straight,brad,you disagree. Then why not say "i disagree" and then tell us what exactly it is that you beleive,and if you must tear down our thoughts,please do it politely. Because it is my opinion that your being a wee bit hostile,and i think that's out of place here. |
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Dopey Dope
Moderator
Member Patricius
since 2000-08-30
Posts 11132San Juan, Puerto Rico |
Brad, you've been hostile since the beginning. Let me clear things up here......I am from Puerto Rico....I live in San Juan.....I stated in the previous post that C&B was a SCHOOL friend of mine.....meaning.....well lemme think here.......could it be that he's in my school? And where is my school BRad?? Could it be in PUERTO RICO? Wow......I think so. Ok so I think we've cleared the fact that my friend ISN'T a liar. I think we can also clear the fact that, yes I am being quite sarcastic. Oh but you know what? I'm just acting into accordance to Mr. Moderator here. You see Brad, I've read up on ALL the material on how to be a moderator....You are supposed to be a role model to us all. I think that from this thread all I've learned about being a moderator is that you can call people liars, be sarcastic, and quite hostile. I applaud you for your mature actions here on this thread. You claim that these are "GAMES"....sure I can see your philosophical stand point, but the world isn't out to get you, and by all means not trying to out smart you. At least not us, your fellow members here at Passions. We are your FAMILY.....look up....to the right......A FAMILY OF Friends....notice.......the words FAMILY and FRIENDS........so please....before you act hostile I think you should assess whether the innitial party (this being C&B) was hostile or not......and from the looks of it the answer is NO. Once again, your family friend Mr. Dopey aka Javier Eduardo Agosto and speaking on the behalf of Jorge Canals (C&B) I was born myself, raised myself, and will continue to be myself. The world will just have to adjust. I'm in love with my shadow I admire it daily |
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fractal007 Senior Member
since 2000-06-01
Posts 1958 |
Brad: What exactly characterizes a typical American in your opinion? "If history is to change, let it change. If the world is to be destroyed, so be it. If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh" -- Magus |
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Craig Member
since 1999-06-10
Posts 444 |
I think there are opportunities for discussion in almost everything we write, say and do this thread is no exception. The original post seemed to me to be an open question on the ability of people, deemed sane by societal standards, to cast judgement on people who are different. It questions whether a person separated by madness from the knowledge of self can attain a better understanding of his/her surroundings. It also raised questions about whether madness and genius are related. The perception, often proffered as an excuse for eccentricity, that madness and genius are separated by a very fine dividing line is, if societies definitions of each affliction are taken to be true, grossly exaggerated. However examples of this potential symbiosis are offered in the form of cases where people exhibit the symptoms and mannerisms society prescribes to the mentally afflicted yet who also exhibit amazing brilliance, albeit within narrowly defined fields. Which are they mentally retarded or examples of genius? My own view is that they are both flawed and gifted in the same measure as those people deemed to be sane, the only difference is that the distribution of genius is more focused in one than the other. Following this line of argument leads to the inevitable (but not necessarily correct) conclusion that genius can, in some cases, be construed to be close to madness. On another note, Brad, you said earlier in this post: “If everybody can interpret it the way they want, then it doesn't mean anything.” I’m a little worried with this statement, on a couple of levels. The first would be that it seems to fly in the face of one of the mainstays of poetry, in fact it’s about the strongest argument I’ve ever read AGAINST poetry. The readers interpretation of a poem in my opinion, even when seemingly at odds with the authors intention is one of poetry’s greatest strengths. I’d go one step further and say that without the readers ability to fix his/her own reference points and inferences on a piece poetry as we know it wouldn’t exist. The second level is that this statement seems to suggest that individual ideas or opinions based upon personal interpretation have no worth. That only one interpretation is ever ‘right’ and any deviation is wrong by default. If there’s only one way of interpreting everything why do things change? Why do people discuss things? Why do people hold differing beliefs and views? I feel a little happier believing that ‘everybody can interpret things the way they want, that it could mean anything.’ Proving it of course is a different matter. Thanks for the chance to read and reply [This message has been edited by Craig (edited 03-08-2001).] |
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Crash&Burn Member
since 2001-01-18
Posts 119 |
I thank you all for posting on the subject even if at times it did deviate from it's original topic. I’d like to also thank those who were able to interpret my original thought and were able to explain it on better terms than I ever could seeing that I’m still just a teen. Personal note to Brad: Try to be more open to ideas, this was just to be a friendly discussion no hostility required. Next time you wish to analyze every minuscule fact try to also take into consideration our thoughts and ideas because we are entitled to them. Once again thank you all and I wish to have the pleasure of witnessing such a strong argument towards a single thought in order to preserve it, not kill it. I see the darkness coming all is bleak... [This message has been edited by Crash&Burn (edited 03-08-2001).] |
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fractal007 Senior Member
since 2000-06-01
Posts 1958 |
Crash&Burn: QUOTE: "Try to be more open to ideas, this was just to be a friendly discussion no hostility required. Next time you wish to analyze every minuscule fact try to also take into consideration our thoughts and ideas because we are entitled to them. " I cannot allow this one to slip past me. I apologize if I sound harsh, however, I do know where you are coming from. I have felt this way before. However, I was not warranted in feeling that way, not in an intellectual setting such as this. You are indeed entitled to your own ideas. However, others are entitled to "analyze every minuscule fact" as you've put it, with regards to those ideas. That's part of freedom of thought. And just for the record, in writing these words, I am not regarding you as a "teen to be handled" or anything else of that nature, but as a fellow thinker. You must keep in mind that analysis and thinking are often quite vastly different realms from those of emotion. Mixing the two can result in sloppy thinking, such as the half wit evidence put forth by people like new agers, for their findings on things such as astral projection. They don't hold up against a serious scientific analysis, but they sound nice, and that's all that matters to them. As far as hostility is concerned, Brad's comments on you being teens and so forth, seem to be the only hostile things I've seen him post here. I've already talked to him about that. Picking things apart is essentially what people do here. Analysis is the name of the game in philosophical understanding, knowledge and pursuit. At least, that's how I see it. However, I am sure that philosophy can be seen in much more different lights. However, emotional appeal has little room in a logical discussion. "If history is to change, let it change. If the world is to be destroyed, so be it. If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh" -- Magus |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
It seems I have a number of issues to address here: Fractal: I'll discuss the typcal American in another thread. Craig: I'll address your concerns about interpretation in another thread. On the teen issue: I don't think I was critical of teens. I am, and was, critical of the idea of a teen. I don't think we should create a category that allows irresponsibility to flourish and, at the same time, demands to be heard and treated as the rest of us. To my mind, it has to be one or the other. The moment you label yourself as a teen (the age is unimportant) you expect to be looked at in a different way, you expect to be treated in a different way. Teens and adults categorize in exactly the same way but if you feel a part of this thing called teenness, you set yourself up for stereotyping and then cry foul when it is actually done. At the same time, you use the same stereotyping to avoid conflict and disagreement. I agree that stereotyping is wrong but I felt that you were using the category as more of a way out of a discussion than as a way to discuss anything in this thread. This is what I saw when C and B said I am not 'a full adult'. I actually give teens more respect by not allowing you to get away with, "I'm only a teen." In my opinion, this denigrates, demolishes, any real opinion you have even before you say it but it's not the "teen" part, it's the "only" part. I thought I was being polite when I said I don't think this is the right forum for this. I have read very little so far that tells me my initial feelings were incorrect. When I say, I don't think you've thought this through yet, that you are appealing to emotion rather than intellect (silly games), this should have been your cue to discuss these issues with me. Instead I am called hostile and cruel. Why is this? Because I am wrong? Perhaps I am. Show me I am. All too often politeness is used to avoid thought. All too often the 'right to an opinion' means the right to say something without repercussion, without disagreement. Ironically, the 'right to an opinion', therefore, squashes another's right to his or her opinion. If you reread what I wrote, you'll notice that I asked several questions, that I encouraged participation, that I complimented C and B. Not one of those questions was answered directly (Dopey answered one sarcastically -- one can almost here the 'duh' -- but doesn't seem to realize that I was trying not to make assumptions here. I did make one mistake here (Okay, maybe I made more than one). When I said the post sounded like a typical American I originally had, "even if you're not American". Somewhere along the line that part got deleted (I thought it was still there for some reason) and that might explain part of my 'hostility'. My second mistake was not addressing the issues of the original post (I was reacting more than acting) but I was really trying to avoid that because I believe it to be incoherent or, at best, nothing more than an extrapolation of a cliche. I believe that cliche is wrong and dangerous. If I take the original post seriously, and I do, I am forced to tell someone this. How does one do this without stepping on people's toes? Crash and Burn, to his credit, did try to explain his post but he ends the explanation with "I think you are smart enough to interpret correctly whant I'm trying to say so deal with it." How do I deal with this? He is referring to my typos complaint but what he is actually showing me is that he doesn't care what he says, he just wants to say it. If I don't get it, so what? Fair enough, he has a lot of friends who 'get it' but to me this is simply a microcosm of the 'they' in the original post. I don't like assumption and assertion, I don't think many of you do either, but you can't beat assumptions and assertions with more of the same. It quickly degenerates into rudeness (on both sides) if you take things seriously. If you do take this seriously, please read my disagreements with the post and the explanation. If you don't, what does it matter what I say? Brad |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Ina, I'm not making fun of you. I'm trying to e-mail you seriously. I don't know what the problem is. Perhaps I'm having problems with accessing hotmail.com? Brad |
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Allan Riverwood
since 2001-01-04
Posts 3502Winnipeg |
Did you get my email, Brad? Perhaps it is something to do with your email... you should contact someone about it. If I had your eyes, I'd be blind. For I can only see out of my own. ~~Carly Van Dort |
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Acies
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 2000-06-07
Posts 7665Twilight Zone |
Seems like this post is getting more replies here than the double post in teen, so I'll just lock the post in teen. Crash, I hope you understand that it's against guidelines to double post. "So long as men can breathe or eyes can see, So long lives this, and this give life to thee." W.S. |
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