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Art equals pain
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Art equals pain |
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Swamp¤Faeryie Member
since 2000-12-04
Posts 393fairyland....of course;) |
Anyone noticed the way art and depression or shall we say "mental-un-health" are connected? Why is it that some of the greatest artists whether they be composers,poets,or painters have been afflicted with things like bi-polar or manic depression,some were even what society calls "stark-raving-mad". I roll this thought around in my head often. I do beleive there are of course some artists who are incredibly gifted,but look at art as simply something to toy with or a purely intellectual pursuit. In short there must be happy artists. But the expression happy artist has always seemed somewhat of a paradox or oximoron to me. For the rest of us crazy and unhappy artists art is what John Lennon once said "all art is an expression of pain". It strikes me that,for myself that it almost seems i was given a peice of perfection,a great gift to be able to draw and paint and see the world from an open minded artist's point of veiw,i was given that incredible ability to create,and yet it almost seems i'm paying for that gift and paying the "rent" with my sanity and my happiness?!!*^ Anyone been having similar musings?have any profound thoughts to add to this? "All art is an expression of pain."~John Lennon |
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xEmperorEmber Member
since 2000-03-28
Posts 136tx |
Beautiful Frustration Its all the last drops of life from a person who thinks that they are already dead. I like John... "The biggest ocean can not stop a man from drowning" - Paul Watley |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
I don't know if this is anything close to a "profound thought" (I think it is only an observation), but it seems to me that suffering and hardship are among the human conditions that inspire the artist to paint and the writer to write. But inspiration is just as often a result of positive experiences (love, parenthood, a good rock concert, a big piece of chocolate cake, etc.). I don't think mental un-health is connected to art ... I think mental un-health (and mental health, for that matter) is connected with a human being human (an expressive creature). Paint or poetry are merely the medium of expression for the painter and the poet ... and these things tend to last longer than a hole punched in a wall.  Jim |
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Swamp¤Faeryie Member
since 2000-12-04
Posts 393fairyland....of course;) |
i like that xemperor....a lovely phrase i beleive i'll write it somewhere and remember it,and jbouder i think you and i are each half right,you have a point,but i think i do too,it all depends on how you loo at it i suppose. Much of what you said was very true.Some inspiration IS very positive,i guess i'm just thinkg from inside a dark mind =] "All art is an expression of pain."~John Lennon |
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fractal007 Senior Member
since 2000-06-01
Posts 1958 |
I've found that art is a very spiritual thing. I don't know if I'm off on a limb here, but I think this: As a Christian, I often find that I pray more when I'm in a VERY bad situation than when I am not. As a poet(or at least one who is aspiring to be one) I find that I write my predicament down in verse or prose when I can think of no other possible way to deal with it. So, I agree with Lennon - art does seem(in my life, anyway)to be an expression of pain. I usually don't take that road to the paradise of pure creativity, unless the world I'm experiencing is just too painful to keep my mind inside of. However, I do not hold to this truth in every kind of art. Unless, of course, there is some subconscious pain that I deal with when I write less painful poetry. Any of you who have seen my more spiritual poetry, have observed that I do not always write depressing poetry. My poetry ranges from happy songs of praise to God, to depressing nightmarish pictures of the future. However, it does seem that I do write depressing poetry more often than I write happy stuff. Thus, as with any rule and regulation, there are exceptions. However, the said rule seems to describe the majority of the phenomena it describes/presides over. |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
I think Oscar Wilde might well have loved you.  Hmmm...after having scanned what the others wrote I have to go a little further here. Inspiration comes in many forms that is true - positive and negative... If writing comes solely as an expression of those then in a sense they are not affecting us. The two states effect our writing, but to a level our writing is detached. IE - we feel something...write from that feeling and there you go. Done. You move on to the next emotion. Yet sometimes, people get trapped in one state from which they can write 'well' - (principally melancholy/depression.) Their best writing seems to come from this state...therefore, in light of this opinion I feel that perhaps pain becomes an expression of art. The pain is craved to create the art - and sometimes it goes further - and the pain is created to create the art. Sad thing that - perhaps I'll write a poem about it K |
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Sock Junior Member
since 2000-11-27
Posts 10Australia |
Well I dabble in painting and writing as well, and when I am depressed the creative juices just seem to flow from me. I think it is due to my great need to express the sadness in some way. Pain and depression is much easier to express in an image/words than happiness - I find it easier anyway. To me most of the GREAT artist that have become famous are that way not just because they are great at what they do, but because the people who read their writings/paintings can connect much easier with pain/depression. After all we all have bad days!!!! Well I've babbled enough. See you around |
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Swamp¤Faeryie Member
since 2000-12-04
Posts 393fairyland....of course;) |
fractal- i agree with your words that every rule has some exception,i have found that to be true throughout most parts of life. I too am a religious person and although i'm very much appreciative of creation and the beauty of it,which may be part of why it disturbs me so to see what humans have done to the earth and theselves,we were not made to be the low life form that we have become. severn- i think i love oscar wilde!! haha, i liked what you said "thepain is craved to create the art - and sometimes it goes further - and the pain is created to create the art." often times i find myself creating my own pain,for the sake of the art, for some reason darkness has attached itself to me like a parasite i cannot detach without loosing something,and at the same time it's almost my destruction. odd thing,life. sock- perhaps you're right,mebe the pain is easier to express. The strange thing is i beleive that art is one half expression of pain and half appreciation of beauty. Sometimes it's even an expression and appreciation of the beauty of pain. What a mouth full!! But pain does have a beauty to it,granted mebe it's a twisted beauty,but there is something lovely about it one way or another.What am i trying to say here? Well look at monet,monet was obviously someone with a capacity to express beauty,and mebe it's just me,but one painting in particular,i can't remember the name of it,but it's done in shades of blue and cool colors with just a tad of yellow and red and it's a woman standing in the grass,in the wind with a parasol,and to me that painting always expressed not just beauty,but also a melencholy,forlon mood. So which is what and who is which??¿ "All art is an expression of pain."~John Lennon |
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Craig Member
since 1999-06-10
Posts 444 |
It’s a tempting proposition to buy into but I’m not convinced, I’m not saying that Art isn’t affected by the artists state of mind, I’m just a little worried that the human propensity for scandal has magnified the connection between Art and depression. The stereotypical artist is a strange creature, given to massive mood shifts self doubt and an inability to maintain lasting relationships, s/he is a windswept soul fighting his/her muse protected by only a lace trimmed shirt and a blood stained kerchief. Is this the reality? Or the perception of reality propagated by the titillating biographies of a few well-known artists? Let’s put it another way - if you take all the people who post poetry at this site how many would fit the above description. How many are just your average Joe cursing the queues at Burger King, trying to bring up screaming kids, working 9-5 in some office or factory producing widgets or wotnots without a depressed moment or thought? I believe there have been and always will be depressed artists, in the same way (and numbers) that there will always be depressed people, I think it’s just that the happy artist just isn’t as interesting as a depressed one, so the spotlight falls on the few instead of the many. By the way John Lennon’s quote would be equally profound if you substituted ‘pain’ with ‘life’ or ‘love’. Thanks for the chance to read and reply [This message has been edited by Craig (edited 12-30-2000).] |
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fractal007 Senior Member
since 2000-06-01
Posts 1958 |
Craig: LOL, I agree with you. Here in Canada, we have a show called "Life and Times". It's about various famous Canadians and their lives. The show always starts off with this depressing music mixed with violins and stuff, showing in the background, various manuscripts that look as though they've been written by the hand of some deranged individual who felt that his/her life was at some sort of epiphane or else just an end. The so-called "inner turmoil" and various other catch phrases which are often associated with artists, are either overrated in our culture, or else are a reflection of the definition of art. I tend to sit on the fence - it's probably both. I've even had the embarrasing experience of catching myself using those same poetic expressions when talking about my own work as an ameteur poet. You know - discussing the battle inside me, the "fierce storm" and various other metaphors. It is true, I do have my own "inner turmoils", but who doesn't? I think that many people seem to think that art is only good art if it comes from someone who lives some sort of inner hell every day. At least, this is the vibe that I get a lot from the various documentaries and things that I read, about poets. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I think Craig and Fractal007 are on the right track. The question that bothers me is are we now determining great art by the artist's life (perhaps we always have?)? It's interesting to see if this specific attitude transcends culture; historically and geographically, I don't think it does. Was Milton a better poet because he went blind? What if Shakespeare wasn't as good looking and had no love affairs as in the movie 'Shakespeare in Love'? Does this diminish the achievement? Just some thoughts, Brad |
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fractal007 Senior Member
since 2000-06-01
Posts 1958 |
Maybe the work of art is much more heartfelt if people know that it comes from an actual experience of pain. Perhaps people respect the art more if they know that it was a difficult thing to produce. We see this all the time in things such as the Olympics. We always hear stories of the "national heroes" who have overcome so much in order to get to the Olympics. So, I think that what I might be getting at here, is that people see much more inspiration in something that comes from someone who lives a life of pain. People see that these "inner turmoils" can be surmounted. However, I am slightly worried that the pain and stuff that so many people go through may, if concentrated on too much, desensitize the public. I know that in my own expierience, I have thought that something is not worth writing down unless it can invoke some large "tearflood" or "sigh tempast" in me. Thus, I fear that I may sometimes fall under my own term: "sorrow junkee". |
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Moon Dust
since 1999-06-11
Posts 2177Skelmersdale, UK |
I always thought that things like depression and other mental states for any other profession was a bad thing, but for a artist its a good thing for inspiration. What i'm saying, when I'm depressed I Write so much more, than about the good things. And i'm in total agreement with John. Life has got to chnage, Nothing stays the same, Soon it will be time, For me to move on. |
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mark woolard Member
since 2001-01-02
Posts 143 |
Art=Pain: when i was sixteen, my shrink told me about a book called "Touched With Fire" by Kay Redfield Jameson. it documents, explains and refreshes the suffering bi-polar mind by correlating "this fine maddness" with the mood/emotional disorders of artists throught the centuries. my mom (god bless her) purchased it for me, and it changed my life by putting the pain in perspective, allowing me to harness the maddness. several years later, the maddness is no longer a destructive, over-dramatic, woe-is-me suicide note. rather, my maddness is a friend who is welcomed with open arms every time it decides to surface. to say the book will "cure" a bi-polar victim is rediculous. i imagine other cases must be a hundred fold more severe than mine. however, i reccommend it to all sufferers of pain who wish to dissect the monster. check your local library, internet or bookstore. . .fire can be constructive if you know how to harness it. .mark woolard. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
I think that the idea that good art comes only from painful experience is bogus. However the association of a poetic mind with a depressed, demented, or eccentric personality is made by many people. The reason? Expression of negativity and macabre thought is simply vogue these days. Does that necessarily mean it has any more virtue than other moods of expression? No. I think actually what is modish or fad-like usually has less to be valued. It has always been so. But the real test of poetry (or any other art) is genuineness. Is someone really expressing their heart with a purpose, or are they using their artistic medium as a garbage can? Or worse are they exagerrating their sullen moods to get recognition? It is one of my pet peeves to read "verbal vomiting" passed off as good poetry. It bugs me even more that the average poetic community at large embraces them just because of their over sated outpourings of ill feelings. They often do not just express pain, but they do so in an artificial and attention-getting kind of way. Don't get me wrong, some of my favorite writings are expressions of pain. To express pain is part of the human experience. It also has it's virtues in that we can identify with the artist because his pain may parallel our own. We feel that the artist can relate. Okay, see there...I DID say something good about expressing the darker side of emotions. I just don't like the lack of balance especially in our generation of writers who came in on the coat-tails of the pioneers of surrealism and introverted expression (with not much connection to the outside world). It just seems pseudo to me. So yes it is a myth that the depressed mind yields better art. Art has expressed just as many glorious, good, and uplifting themes in the past just as skillfully. It's just that a certain mindset won't admit it! Maybe that thought is not depressing enough to acknowledge! I'll get off my soap-box now! Don't mean to offend. This is my opinion. Very thought provoking subject! |
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dreamer1 12 5 24 Member
since 2000-12-11
Posts 150crossing between |
I think that pain does inspire poets/artists etc. I'm not saying it's the only inspiration out there, and I'm not saying art equals pain, but I think pain equals art. As poets and artists, we express ourselves in art and poetry. Other people express themselves in their own ways, but for me, poetry is almost the only way. So basically, when we are going through a tough time in our lives, the pain we feel needs to be expressed in some way, and as poets and artists, we express ourselves in poetry and art. Inspiration comes from pain as well as other places. ....peace as a primary objective is dangerous because it implies that we would sacrifice anything for the sake of it.... Robert Kaplan |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I have no interest in debating the the therapuetic uses of writing but therapy doesn't necessarily make great poetry. Eliot makes the distinction between the 'the man who suffers' and 'the man who creates' but, again, I want to point out that the current idea of pain and suffering as a vehicle for great poetry is only a reversal of the 'only a great, virtuous man makes poetry'. This is a medieval notion. Nevertheless, I'm not convinced that genuineness is an aspect of great poetry either. Both arguments seem to commit what's called the biographical fallacy. When I get some time I'll try to relate two frauds -- one from Australia and one from America and rather recent. Why can't great poetry be the result of the words and the way they are used? Brad |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Brad, just a question... If poetry is only words and the way they are used, wouldn't that be reducing poetry to mere mechanics? I disagree with the statement that good poetry has nothing to do with genuineness. . . but the genuineness I am speaking of is a genuineness of expression. If the fad is to admire poetry which is sticky with the weeping fluids of pseudo-sorrow's jaded words (with the actual experience mostly exaggerated by the writers), and someone merely takes advantage of the trend and writes in this manner for an easy popularity, then no it is not good writing though the fickle taste of the populace says "this is good!". On the other hand if a poet writes with genuiness about experiences of pain and is true to those experiences then it may be good poetry... even if that person is writing from an imagined or exaggerated scenario of pain (perhaps writing as another character or not)... it is genuine in the sense that he or she is not writing with the motive of mere recognition. If a person writes for therapy only and doesn't really care about the artistic element and calls it poetry, he or she is not being totally genuine and it will probably show. The reader will feel like he is reading a private diary instead. Poetry is after all art. And art upholds certain responsibilities and standards. We live in a good time when we have streched our forefathers' bounds and forms, but it is bad when we take away any standards and say "what I say is poetry is poetry". It reminds of the modern artist who ripped a grimey urinal out of a men's restroom and named it something and called it "art". It actually resided in some sort of art museum/ display. I couldn't beleive it! I felt like he had the last laugh because somehow he passed an object to contain human excrement as art. And that's what many artistic mediums have become ... containers of human excrement, whether it is music, poetry, theatre or whatever. I'm not saying all expressions of pain are like this. I'm just saying I have seen this. |
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fractal007 Senior Member
since 2000-06-01
Posts 1958 |
I remember when I first learned about poetry[in a more indepth manner] in grade 8. The teacher told us that just about anything you write can be considered a poem. This was very misleading in my opinion. We also analyzed the poetry with the idea that poems can mean a variety of different things. I don't believe this to be the case - well at least not in the majority of poetry. However, I took both these ideas to heart, and it resulted in quite a bit of confusion for me when I studied poetry in the senior grades. So, it seems to me that we need a happy medium. On the one hand, we should adhere to the rules of grammar in poetry, but on the other hand, it is dangerous to stick to only the forms of our forefathers. If we do the latter, poetry will likely become an intellectual snob thing. It's already got a bad reputation for being this way, among many circles of youth. You know - the groans you hear whenever the english teacher says that the class will now do a unit on poetry, lol. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Stephanous, I'm not sure what you mean by mechanics. I don't mean a poem has to be reduced to a set form but that whatever form it takes should be integrated into the theme or meaning of the poem itself. I don't believe you can separate the structure from the content. What I think gets lost in a lack of attention to 'mechanics' are the subtler forms of pleasure that can be derived from poetry as an art form and not as a reflection of the author (that's there, but we don't have to concentrate on it). When we read through the words we assume a certain transparency to the language; a transparency that in many ways is an illusion. If you read the poem as a poem and not as a form of simply personal expression, you open up new avenues in enjoying the poem. Fractal007, Your eighth grade English teacher didn't quite get it right. Any form of writing can be considered poetic but not everything is poetry. I loosely define poetry by the use of line breaks -- this allows for a lot of variation though, just trying to set it apart from prose. It's not a perfect definition. What do you do with the prose poem or the letter poem but I find it useful because I think people look at something different from the beginning if they see a shape different from prose style. Before they even begin reading, they intuitively think 'this is a poem' or 'this is prose' and adjust their expectations accordingly. But is a shopping list or an index a form of poetry or of prose? I've read some really good stuff in these forms so I'm inclined to include them in poetry.But this doesn't mean they are good poetry. Does poetry have multiple meanings? I know some people who would argue that that is one of it's preconditions. On the other hand, one could argue that all language has multiple meanings depending on the context in which they are presented. Perhaps poetry is simply the type of writing that we are taught more clearly to read as multiple. Are there academic snobs. Sure there are. But there are also anti-academic snobs who already know how the world works, who seem to think that reading is a passive activity (I get it; I don't get it) rather than an active activity that involves work and training. Those senior classes weren't trying to teach you how to write poetry; they were trying to teach you how to read. Close reading is hard to do but it's fun. Brad |
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Swamp¤Faeryie Member
since 2000-12-04
Posts 393fairyland....of course;) |
well,what a lot i have to say after reading all that!! First of all i would like to point out that i never said all artists are inspired by pain,nor did i say that all pain gives rise to creativity. Although i agree that much art is an expression of pain,i do not beleive all art is such. I sighted the comment of John Lennon as a thought provoking statement,not the holy truth. Mebe he's right,mebe he's not,but doesn't it make a person wonder if there is corralation between pain and art? Craig- i'm not talking about the blues,i am not talking about being a little down,i'm talking about clinical depression. Bi-polar,manic depression,these things are not normal,they entail CHEMICAL imbalances,and they are NOT easy to fix,they are not imagined,and they are not sought. Some are born with it,it cannot be wished away. Perhaps i should have made this clear in my original comment. Of course i also beleive there is a connection between art and less severe mental pain,but mainly i mean clinical depression.I find any artist interesting. Say the word artist and my ears go up!! so to speak....terribly fascinating people ,i may be more able to relate to the "depressed artist" on a personal level,but art is art,and i love art. So from my personal veiwpoint i would have to disagree with the statement that the public finds a turbulent artist more interesting than a "happy artist". But that's just me,i have no idea what the rest of the world thinks. And btw,.....you're discription of the stereotypical artist.....well… Massive mood swings are a trademark "symptom" of bi-polar,not saying people with mood swings are bi-polar,that's bull,but....it is an indication listed on the psychologist's evaluation sheet,as is severe self-doubt during crash times,and an inability to maintain lastingrelationships is an unfortunate consequence. A person with bi-polar can be perfectly normal during off times,what i mean is the illness cycles,rapid cycling manic depression involves a manic phase about every two weeks which means euphoria absolute happiness and euphoria,then a massive crash into the lowest of the lows that can get pretty hard to deal with,it is indeed incredibly difficult to maintain any kind of normal relationship. But that's show business. Appreciate your point of veiw,=] Fractal- I know what you’re saying and I agree to a point. Society is a little caught up right at the moment in sort of a death culture. There seems to be some kind of black wearing punk movement on,where I am. What really cracks me up is that anything black on ebay is suddenly subject to the title “Gothic”,even if it does’t eve remotely fit the term,I don’t understand that,but a fad is a fad…lol. Lets face it the world is full of wicked things and darkness….some people just get a little carried away and forget to look on the proverbial bright side.You’re right,all people have “inner turmoils” of one kind of another,but you have to understand that having an ILLNESS like clinical depression is an entirely different turmoil,it goes much deeper,it hurts much worse,and you cannot control it!! I think that the current pain fad is a result,rather than cause of desensitization of the public veiwpoint. So many things today are just so far from the social veiwpoints of 200 years ago. Not that all the things then thought to be taboo did’t happen,but society as a whole set up guidelines as to what is okay and what was not okay. Today things like witchcraft,divorce,homosexuality and even pain itself has been accepted as everyday normal nothing wrong,where as 200 years ago !!!!!!!!!!! taboo taboo deluxe!! Now,I don’t have any wish to involve myself in discussions about whether or not these things are wrong or right,I’m just comparing public veiws now and then. I think society 200 years ago was fuddy duddy,but you have to admit the things happening today,that would be thought so scandalous then indicates to me,the desensitization of the public,whether they were right in being so strict or not,something has deffinately happened where we have created a monster. Violence,sex,on tv desensitizes our children,that’s obvious,and I think the entire culture has become bit by bit a little to free in certain areas. Mark- Just have to say thanks for sharing your veiwpoint,and although I’ve not been concrete diagnosed with manic depression (one of those mystery cases=) I love reading all I can on anything psychological,thinking about making it a career,and I’m going to check out that book!! Speaking of reading,why is it I keep reading personal accounts of people who have had accident of falling off ladders, injuring their brain somehow,and it ends up affecting the chemicals in their brains,and while the doctors are still trying to figure out what goes on in their brain they begin to draw/paint/write like crazy and suddenly become artists,taking an interest in art,when they had never done so before the head injury,and before long the doctors have diagnosed them with bi-polar depression? I have read at least 5 medical accounts following basicly the same lines as stated….so….what’s up with that? Interesting,no? Interesting that a change in the chemicals of the brain can bring about that kind of……artistic awakening? Veeeery interesting!! And as for poetry being good only if product of pain,well that's a fraud. Good poetry is good poetry,bottomline,you don't have to know anything about the author,the author's life,the author's "personal struggles",or anything about the emotion they were trying to express,to be able to recogize good poetry. Good poetry involves nothing but your opinion of what good poetry is.Dark art is no better than airy art,after all it's all art,and it is all expression. "All art is an expression of pain."~John Lennon |
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White Wolf Member
since 1999-09-18
Posts 371Somewhere in the vast wasteland |
Ok, I will put my two cents into this pot. Poetry and any other form of art, I believe, to be an expression of the heart. Whether it be happy, sad, angry, confusion or whatever, if is in the heart it can be made into an art form. When one loses his sight or goes deaf, if I remember correctly some of Bach's best pieces where done when he was deaf, or whattever happens to a person they tend to get a closer view of their own heart. That is why their stuff tends to touch us all the more because more of their heart is comming through. Get in touch with your heart and all of your works will be powerful. The White Wolf |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
White Wolf, But what does that mean? When you read a poem, can you tell if it was 'from the heart' or not? If you can, you're not reading the poem, you're being a telepath. Stick with the words. Brad |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
White Wolf: I will concede that there are times when the passion of a writer, a composer, a sculptor, et al. is easily recognized in a piece of their respective art form but I think you are making a mistake by dichotomizing the heart from the mind. For example, I think a good case could be made that Bach was passionate about his music. But I think a better case can be made that Bach was a musical genius who had a natural understanding of the mechanics of music and its effect on its listeners. Tempo, tone, pitch, the interaction of different instrumental sounds, harmony, melody, etc. In Bach's case, I think he could probably imagine the sounds in his head in much the same way as an experienced poet can "hear" the meter of a poem without reading it aloud. To paraphrase Pope, "Ease of writing comes from art not chance, as those move easiest who have learned to dance." Translating one's passion into words takes thought and discipline. More often than not, separating the head from the heart ends up becoming very messy.  Just an op. Jim |
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Tony Abbot Member
since 2000-11-18
Posts 209North Wales,UK |
No,Bach never went deaf,that was Beethoven.Bach possibly was blind in his last years.Was he a better composer because of it,no he wasn't,neither was Beethoven with his hearing problem.Both had already achieved a great standard with their work.What made them great artists was their large emotional range which is very common among composers. 'Humankind cannot bear too much reality' T.S.Eliot |
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