»
Discussion
»
Philosophy 101
»
The ulimate addiction.
| Philosophy 101 |
|
The ulimate addiction. |
|
|
brian madden Member Elite
since 2000-05-06
Posts 4374ireland 
|
The ultimate addiction. NO not Passions, though that ranks as second maybe third behind Heroin. LOL Anyway to my point, Cigarettes...what is the point? At the moment a number of law suits are been brought against cigarette companies from people dying from related illnesses. Is there something, as a non smoker, I am missing? Personally I can only see the bad or negative points of cigarettes, they seem like kisses of death to me, and ones that not only effect the smoker but the person standing next to the smoker. When it is put into perspective I find it really shocking, here we have an addictive substance that is totally legal. It has no medical value or any other aim than to addict. I find this frightening, in fact it seems the same as selling heroin in supermarkets. I believe that it should be unlawful to sell cigarettes that contain addictive chemicals. The only reason that these companies can continue to addict large amounts of people is because of their power and the tax that the government earns from the sales. Can anyone justify the existence of cigarettes and Tobacco. What are your thoughts on this very topical matter? |
||
| © Copyright 2000 brian madden - All Rights Reserved | |||
|
brian madden Member Elite
since 2000-05-06
Posts 4374ireland |
Bumping this in case anyone wants to reply to the topic. "A frog, it cannot comprehend the sea Nor me happiness" Paul Draper-Mansun |
||
Elizabeth
Moderator
Member Ascendant
since 1999-06-07
Posts 6871Minnesota |
I can't justify the sales of tobacco products, but I can state my opinion. First of all, they are addictive, but everyone knows that. If people don't want to become addicted, they shouldn't buy the cigarettes. It's as simple as that. Second of all, if they buy a pack of cigarettes, become addicted, and develop a smoking-related illness, it's their problem, not that of the cigarette company. They made a conscious choice to smoke despite numerous warnings, and the fault is totally their own, I don't care what the jury decides. Look at any cigarette ad. They are all printed with Surgeon General warnings that distinctly state that cigarettes contain addictive substances and can cause diseases. Maybe you're right when you say that they shouldn't be sold, but while they are, at least there is the printed warning. Elizabeth Why ME??? |
||
|
WhtDove Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-22
Posts 9245Illinois |
As a smoker I don't see anything positive from it either. Of course it's the sale and the tax money, they're big and powerful. Just like alcohol, it's addictive, destroys lives, so why isn't it banned? That too is legal! I think the power and the money, and of course the acceptability it has among people is what keeps it going! PS Elizabeth...years ago they didn't have this warning on the packages. They claimed it was safe to use. Not until recently has it been discovered that people were dying from the nicotine, and it caused serious illness. I do believe they should be held accountable for that! [This message has been edited by WhtDove (edited 07-31-2000).] |
||
|
Elizabeth
Moderator
Member Ascendant
since 1999-06-07
Posts 6871Minnesota |
Being on the young side, I don't know exactly when warning labels were printed on cigarettes, but I have talked with my parents on this matter, and my mom recalls, from the '60s when she was young, the harmful effects of cigarettes were discussed even then. People are going to do what they want to do, anyway. Look at Prohibition. It stopped the sales of alcohol, but not the use of it. People made their own liquor, and that is what will happen if we again try to ban alcohol or cigarettes. Even now, with the effects known, people today continue to smoke, and others begin smoking. Either they are already addicted and can't quit, or they think it looks "cool" so they start lighting up. I'm not saying it's OK to smoke or drink. I myself don't do either. All we can do, especially now that the effects of the products are known, is not encourage the use of them. Elizabeth Why ME??? |
||
|
WhtDove Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-22
Posts 9245Illinois |
I agree Elizabeth we shouldn't encourage the use of them. Out of families that smoke or I should parents, the children will usually pick it up. I wish I had never started, seriously. It is an awfully bad habit. |
||
|
JP Senior Member
since 1999-05-25
Posts 1343Loomis, CA |
Smoking... addictive? Yes. Unhealthy, obviously. Then again, so is alcohol, sugar, prescription drugs... all of which are legal, and accepted. Drink has killed more people than smoking ever has, drink has cost more in related health costs, lost production costs, and other labor related losses than smoking will ever cost. Yet, alcohol is readily available, it's use perfectly acceptable and heartily encouraged. Perhaps if it had a stronger odor someone would treat it like they do tobacco.... Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn. JP "Everything is your own damn fault, if you are any good." E. Hemmingway |
||
|
brian madden Member Elite
since 2000-05-06
Posts 4374ireland |
Thanks to everyone for the comments, the main ones I wish to address at this point are JP's comments JP anything in excess is damaging. Alcohol can be addictive but in the habit forming sense sure it kills brain cells and has many adverse effects but two things first it is a habit forming addict like shopping and two there is no such thing as passive drinking except among students maybe, but seriously, my main grips about smoking are: 1. it has no positive effect on the body, no reaction that is pleasing (ok a person who is addicted needs their craving to be satisfied but unlike drink or drugs there is no chemical reaction with the body.). 2. Nicotine, I think it is immoral to have an addictive substance in readily available products, what if there was addictive agents in asprin? Addictive substances should be taken out of cigarettes. There are a very hard drug to give up. Which brings me on to my next point. 3. Alcohol can be addictive in the habit forming sense and if you drink in excess regularly it effects your body. Cigarettes cause cancer, another point if people start smoking young then they will more than likely smoke for most of their lives, it is easier to buy cigarettes than drink. Also passive smoking, then there is the odour to clothes, breath, lungs (people who smoke often cough for no reason other than the fact that their lungs are covered in tar.) In review I disagree with your points that drink is the same as tobacco. They are totally different, I mean you could get into the points about alcohol violent behaviour caused by drink, drink driving etc... but my main point is that Cigarette companies are using people to make money by turning them into addicts. It is the greatest capitalist ploy. "Beyond all this good is the terror,The grip of a mercenary hand,When savagery turns all good reason, There's no turning back, no last stand,"I.Curtis |
||
|
sonjes Senior Member
since 2000-02-18
Posts 564North Carolina |
Since I live in North Carolina, I must respond to this... As I sit and type, I stare out the window to the farm down the road which is surrounded by fields filled with tobacco. In the fields are men working the tobacco. My guess would be that they are uneducated...I have seen these men in the grocery stores with their families buying food that they may not have been able to purchase without the tobacco farms...I stress MAY NOT. The bottom line is that North Carolina is largely an agricultural state. For generations, families have depended on their tobacco farms. Not to say that they couldn't live off of some other crop... But, the last I checked smoking is a choice.. Sometimes, you have to look beyond the big tobacco firms and look at where it all begins. humans are creatures of habit, so my only suggestion would be is to build yourself a time machine, go back to the founding of Virginia and burn all the tobacco fields before the English have a chance to reap their benefits. If you really want to blame someone for tobacco, blame the English Royal Family.  |
||
|
Erin Member Elite
since 2000-06-15
Posts 2527~Chicago~ |
Ok smoking and drinking do kill, but what about the other stuff that kills people or hurts them. Like the movie Erin Brockovich(misspelled???) look what happened there. I seen the movie a long time ago when it first came out so I cant really remember if it was because of the water in the town that was almost killing people. But people were getting really sick. Drugs~~~They kill people but they are still used. Being injected with needles can cause you to get AIDS. But these people that are so addicted even if they do get help they cant stay away from it. Alchol~~~This is one subject that I can really relate to. Not me. But my godfather died from drinking so much. And you know what I will never follow in the footsteps of him. He drank so much, and for the last months of his life his skin was yellow, his eyes (the white part) was gray and he looked horrible. But I mean if people really want to stop doing it they could. But they choose not to. And if they cant do it themselves who said that they would listen to anyone else. There are so many different ways people can die these days because of what they are putting in their body. And its not up to me to make them quit. Its their choice and they need to be willing to do it. Sorry that I rambled on and on. I dont even know why I did it. But thanks for listening to what I had to say!!! |
||
|
serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
okay, one more and then I will quit (gotcha, hee hee) ...and I am not here to justify the existance of cigarettes, more to quibble on what is the ultimate addiction...this is a better question for me as I have been addicted to just about everything...so I have to say, the ultimate addiction is the one that demonizes you personally, that thing that each individual reaches for in order to control or acheive personal power...be rid of that need, and the substance becomes inconsequential...and I typed that so easily blowing smoke all over my screen, but isn't that what the great mystics and visionaries have all stated, albeit in language of difference? |
||
|
JP Senior Member
since 1999-05-25
Posts 1343Loomis, CA |
Can't stay but wanted to let you know that your take, Brian, on alcohol use and effects is inaccurate. I will elaborate later today when I get home from work... Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn. JP "Everything is your own damn fault, if you are any good." E. Hemmingway |
||
|
brian madden Member Elite
since 2000-05-06
Posts 4374ireland |
Ok thanks to everyone who responsed and for their various opinions. To just to reflect or clarify my main grip is that Cigarettes contain nioctine an addictive sunstance, Ok grand let people make the choice to start smoking, it is their decision however the age limit should be raised. Here it is 16 for Tabocco and 18 for alcohol. Back to the main point in my agruement. It is not free will or free choice if your body is addicted to nioctine. How many people have tried to give up somking? it is not so easy. I think it is immoral and injust to have addictive substances in Cigarettes(we all know that these chemicals are there). Back to the point about jobs and how Cigarette companies supply jobs so does factories that makes guns, weapons and even the illict (herion) drug dealing. They all supply jobs, but that is moving away from my main point. JP in my mind there are huge differences between cigarettes and alcohol. Do I drink? yes. I drink in excess, rarely. MY limit is usually 4 pints (once a month at most) and sometimes 1 pint at the weekends. As far as I am aware alcohol has not addictive chemicals, it is habit forming in the same way as shopping, sex etc. Does drinking in excess damage the body? yes and it can lead to death. As I said my main point is the fact that adictive chemicals are in cigarettes. "Beyond all this good is the terror,The grip of a mercenary hand,When savagery turns all good reason, There's no turning back, no last stand,"I.Curtis |
||
|
Elizabeth
Moderator
Member Ascendant
since 1999-06-07
Posts 6871Minnesota |
I don't know what exactly is in alcohol, but it surely is addictive for the effect it brings on (getting a buzz, getting drunk, etc.). Maybe when you state it like that, cigarettes shouldn't be on the market as they do have addictive substances. However, many people are able to quit. There are also many people who smoke only occasionally. Elizabeth Why ME??? |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
If someone tries to take away my caffeine (equally addictive, though substantially less harmful), we'll be moving this thread to the Alley. Guaranteed. Not incidentally, most experts would agree that a psychological addiction is worse than a physical one. Rid your body of the addictive substance (withdrawals) and you rid yourself of the addiction. I've seen a number of different instances of that and it's not pretty. But it is quick, often a matter of days, rarely more than a few weeks. A psychological addiction, on the other hand, can often last a lifetime. Which is why most programs stipulate a recovering alcoholic can never have another drink. Oh, and most physical addictions are also psychological. Including cigarettes. Go three days without a cigarette and you no longer have a physical addiction to nicotine. But many will tell you the "desire" may linger for years. |
||
|
Butterflies_dont_cry Member Elite
since 2000-03-06
Posts 3733Michigan |
Dusting off my medical books......lol In discussing this with a few doctors I felt the need to share something.....there is in fact something in nicotine that works as an anti-depressant...this is why the drug Welbutrin and Zyban work so well to quit smoking.....they are anti-depressants and thought the exact reasons are not known (as far as I know) there is a connection...so along with the physical addiction there is much more to it in my opinion...and NO I don't feel this is an excuse for smokers to use (I quit smoking with Welbutrin) but it does give some more information on the reasons why.....maybe  |
||
|
JP Senior Member
since 1999-05-25
Posts 1343Loomis, CA |
I'm back. Ron made good points regarding physical and psychological addiction. In fact, many experts in the field will agree that the psychological addiction is itself the worst part of the deal. As a recovering alcoholic and a smoker I would most earnestly agree that the addiction to alcohol is by far the most insidious and devastatingly difficult addiction to deal with. I smoke out of choice, I enjoy it. It does not bother me to go without smoking, fortunately, it does not appear that I am 'physically' addicted to nicotine... but it is a daily, nay, an hourly struggle to not go out and get something to drink. The substance 'alcohol' is in itself an addictive substance, no one has to add anything to it to make it so... Enough of that part... started to bore myself... why has smoking been so villified and drinking has not? Discomfort mainly, it is easy to pick on something that smells, that many people find obnoxious, something that is very noticable when one indulges... drinking is far less blatant, which is funny since it is absolutely the most deadly and costly of all the addictions. Alcohol related incidents have killed more people than smoking could ever do (including questionable deaths attributed to second-hand smoke). Alcohol related illnesses have cost billions in health care costs, trilliions in lost production costs (few people call in sick on Monday morning after a long weekend of smoking  )Alcohol related behaviors have destroyed more relationships, families, friendships, etc. than smoke could or would ever be able to do ("my wife left me because I smoke..." NOT). Finally (yeah I hear y'all... Thank gawd!)... the phyical effects of alcohol are by far more detrimental that smoking. The majority of damage to the body, caused by smoking, is reversible upon the cessation of the behavior. Sillia (sp?) grows back, lungs purge and regenerate, breath odor dissipates... This is untrue for alcohol related damage. Brain cells do not regenerate, damage to the liver is unrepairable. Well now... glad I got that out of my system... I need a drink....  Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn. JP "Everything is your own damn fault, if you are any good." E. Hemmingway |
||
|
Rosebud1229 Senior Member
since 2000-04-05
Posts 1813North Carolina |
I would just like to reply as a stores clerk it is getting harder for younger people to purchase cigerattes though I know there's always a way. The shame is when it's the parent's that make it accessible for that young person to even start. I myself am an xsmoker, it's easy to quit. RIGHT! it is i've quite three times so addictive very! what would be nice is that they would offer more incentive for ways for people to stop this harmful habbit. I've seen and I know many people have people that go into the hospital with difficulty breathing but yet still continue smoking. The age as far as here for smoking is 18. One thing that is being done is advertisement is beginning to change as far as less promotions trying to make it seem like this is something sexy. I know I myself had to quit cold turkey which was not easy but it is possible. I smoked for fifteen years. If you never started don't start because your health and not to mention the cost is going sky high. |
||
|
Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Humm, throwing in quarters for two cents worth... I'm lost as to how this is a philosophical debate... and at first, Bri, I thought you were sharing my hubby's soapbox...and then I saw you're NOT a smoker... As far as addiction goes: yes, cigs are a NARCOTIC! 50 years ago a dentist told my Mom to "inhale, but not into your lungs" the cigarette smoke to help alleviate a toothache! Suffice to say, she got hooked. Both of my parents suffered from cigarettes...they are as habit forming as any drink or other drug. [I was lucky...the only child of three that didn't pick up smoking as a vice] Mother died from cancer... Dad from emphysema. Face it, tho: cigs and alcohol are big $$$. A drug is a drug. If you can make money off of legal drugs, they why not? I feel that the only reason illegal drugs aren't legalized is because then a person would be too stoned to go out and purchase more legal drugs. It's a lose-lose situation. Hey JP, I'll got out for that drink w'ya!< !signature--> Karilea When you want to be loved, look within...KRJ [This message has been edited by Sunshine (edited 08-25-2000).] |
||
|
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
I can't believe I've missed this one!!! One of my favorite topics!!!  Yes, I am a smoker. Come this January, thirteen years, which brings me to my first point: I've seen more than one person point out the legal age for cigarette purchase in their area. In mine, it was 18. Do the math, I'll be 27 in January. What? I broke the law??? Oh my goodness, kids don’t actually follow the rules? I’m sure you see where my sarcasm is going. I grew up in a household of smokers and around relatives and friends of my parents who smoked. Whether or not the physical addiction was possibly created at this time I can’t say (though I do remember that I didn’t hack my lungs out the first time I took a full drag...) I can say however that it instilled in me the idea that smoking was “cool.” As it’s been stated, the physical addiction lasts a few days... the psychological addiction... well, I was in boot camp for three months. The first thing I wanted when I went out on leave was a cigarette. You tell me. Back to my point - The law means little, when it’s a cool thing to do. Laws are often and easily circumvented in situations like these. I know it was a simple matter for me to find “that” store which sold to minors. So this takes away some of the responsibility of the person smoking, since they were after all underage? No, but I think it certainly contributes to making the addiction that much harder to kick. To the addictive properties: Yes, nicotine is physically addictive. So is caffeine, alcohol, amphetamines (read sinus medication, Vivarin and other “stay-awake” pills, some drugs, illicit or not, etc.) many, many prescription drugs, of course the illicit drugs, and more. If you really want to get down to it, you can say that things like air and water are addictive as well. Physical addiction is “achieved” when the body becomes adjusted to something to the point of being “unable” to cope without it. The point then, would be whether or not the addiction is harmful. Yes, nicotine is harmful. Caffeine is as well, though less so. Alcohol, drugs, etc. - all harmful to varying degrees. But what about things like air and water? Yes, they too. I know that I inhale more carcinogens from stepping outside my office every evening than I do from smoking in an entire month. The pollution caused by the big cities, the distressingly large amount of traffic, etc. is by far worse for my lungs than smoking. Water these days, unless you purify it, has more chemicals than a pharmaceutical! What’s healthy about that? And these are things that affect everyone, not just those “nearby.” And then you have the psychological addiction... what here isn’t as well? Sex, drugs, cigarettes, soda, chocolate (oh yes, there are people who are addicted to chocolate), the internet, television, you name it. Virtually everything can be addicting depending on how you look at it. So here’s where I try to bring the philosophy into this. However in the interest of brevity (which I know is already out the proverbial window) I will limit it to one “small” area of discussion. Why are cigarettes such a focus in comparison to alcohol? I think it probably comes down to several reasons, and most of them rooted in that nasty portion of the world called the human psyche. The “symptoms:” Smell- Ok Brian, you tell me that to someone who hasn’t been drinking, that the odor of one who has isn’t distressing. Excessive consumption of alcohol seeps through the pores and causes the person to smell like an ill-tended brewery. I know, I’ve smelled it... it’s nasty! But, if you’ve been drinking, you don’t notice it. Same for cigarettes. Most smokers can’t smell that “bad” smell. Health- Cancer! Oooh. Sorry. First, not everyone who smokes gets cancer. On the flip side, many who don’t smoke DO get cancer. My grandpa on my dad’s side died of lung cancer... weird though, he never smoked a cigarette in his life. And not everyone is unhealthy. I can run two miles in under fifteen minutes no prob and I don’t run often. While many people I know who don’t smoke, or hell, even drink can hardly walk to the mailbox without breaking a sweat. Alcohol - Yes, it can be good in moderation. But as with so many things, moderation is a word, and not an action most people adhere to. When you count the amount of deaths contributed to alcohol... staggering. Yet I can’t remember the last news report which talked about someone slaying a group of children waiting for their bus because he was “smoking and driving.” Liver disease, brain damage... damage to families from people who react in drunken rages. Again, can’t remember the last time someone actually followed through on the threat: “If I don’t’ get a cigarette soon, I’m going to hurt someone!” And you know as well as I do, that’s simply the surface of the damage alcohol can and does incite. Morality- You know, I have an image in my head that the first person to discover the process by which one can produce alcohol, had a cigarette in his mouth. (I know, but I still have that image in my head...LOL) Smokers in some form or another have been around.. well, a long time. It’s not a new idea and in fact during older times was quite the fashionable thing to do. Today, well it’s stopped being fashionable. But alcohol is! Wow, is it ever! When California banned businesses from allowing smoking inside, did they also ban the sale of the alcohol? They wanted to prevent those inside the restaurants, etc. who weren’t smokers from being endangered by its affects. But did they stop the guy who drank too much, or even a little - just enough to impair his judgement - from leaving? Stop him from getting into his 2000 pound death machine to assault some one who wasn’t even in the restaurant? No, of course not. And why not? That’s the next reason and in a way, my answer: My “answer:” Money- And I guess with this, we should add power. Money begets power. Power, come down from the law makers and the “influential” people. The sale of alcohol is a BIG business. So is smoking, you may say. And that’s true. But the difference here is the result. (I WILL get to the money and power bit in a second, but first let’s lay some ground work for it.) Cigarettes produce a momentary high. To a smoker, it doesn’t feel that way, rather it has a “calming” affect. But in reality, it speeds up the blood and makes your heart beat faster, producing a small high. Alcohol on the other hand, produces a much more noticeable high. If done in excess, smoking will make the person ill if anything, but it will not produce a “higher” high. Alcohol on the other hand... well, the more you drink, the higher you get. (Though this too is a misnomer as alcohol But I wouldn’t get my hopes up anytime soon for having cigarettes “banned.” They may try, but it won’t happened. It was proven with the prohibition that banning an addiction doesn’t make it go away. Instead, it opens avenues for more illicit dealings, which in turn increases crime in general. (Like begets like.) Take a peek at the increasing populace of marijuana smokers. Even in my short memory, I can see the increase from then (when I was younger) to now. It’s almost more common to know people who smoke marijuana than it is someone who smokes cigarettes. I imagine it won’t be much longer until this too is legalized. In a way, I think the governments will have to legalize it. They not only stand to make a lot of money off of the taxes, they would also decrease crime inasmuch as that directly associated with it’s use and sales. I’m not saying it’s right, or anything like that... I just see it as something that will happen. And ok, I’ll shut up here soon. Please understand, I’m not saying smoking is good. In fact, I emphatically urge those who haven’t’ started not to! It is a nasty, dangerous demon which will haunt you. What I am saying though is that I think we should look at smoking as ”THE” evil in the world. Instead, look at it as one of the evils... and in my opinion, one of the lesser ones. Peace *puff* out - Chris [This message has been edited by Christopher (edited 08-26-2000).] |
||
|
brian madden Member Elite
since 2000-05-06
Posts 4374ireland |
Thanks to everyone for contributing to the debate. Ok picking up on mainly Christpher's points, I can't agrue with a single one only to add my own thoughts. I suppose alcohol is just as dangerous if not more so to the health. As an occasional drinker I should be relativly safe in the same way as the moderate smoker. I guess the point is that smoking is frowned up as it is everywhere where as drinking is mainly limited to pubs and clubs. Alcohol is seen as less addictive, but on the long term level it is in fact worse than smoking. I will state my main point once again I think that nioctine and addictive agents should be removed from cigarettes. Being totally hyprocrital I do not think that alcohol should be dulled or removed, I know without the kick it is useless, same for cigarettes, but I can handle my drink. I have moderation. Stricter laws should be enforced regarding drink and alcohol sale, maybe the same for cigarettes. "I concede relationships have left me weak Won't be here so I don't care Look for something worthy to replace my guilt" Mansun legacy |
||
|
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Brian said quote: What world do you live in Brian??? I know in mine, alcohol is everywhere smoking is and many where smoking isn't. Homes, beaches, parties, walks in the park, cars, restaurants, convienance stores... we even have a drive through liquor store. Maybe our focus could be less on what they contain and more on how they're used/abused? |
||
|
brian madden Member Elite
since 2000-05-06
Posts 4374ireland |
a little country called Ireland,LOL, sure we have plenty of pubs and homeless people drinking on our streets, drive through off licence? wow, never knew they existed. Scary thought. Alcohol is everywhere, in fact our country has banned cigarette adverts on television and bill boards. they are only allowed on magazines. And I think the restrictions on the adverts are tight, they never show people smoking in the adverts. Anyway I am bowing out of this debate I have said my piece and stick to my views. "I concede relationships have left me weak Won't be here so I don't care Look for something worthy to replace my guilt" Mansun legacy |
||
|
|
⇧ top of page ⇧ |
|
| All times are ET (US). All dates are in Year-Month-Day format. | ||
