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rene
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since 2000-04-24
Posts 113


0 posted 2000-06-01 01:33 PM


what is wrong with people deciding they just don't want to play the game any more?
presuming they have no dependants like children etc. and forgeting religious views such as the body is sacred etc. (because not every one has those views or views that are the same)

© Copyright 2000 rene - All Rights Reserved
doreen peri
Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812
Virginia
1 posted 2000-06-01 06:09 PM


well, i think there are several things 'wrong' with it. i'll list a few of them.

1- it's not fair to friends and relatives who will weep & mourn for days, weeks, maybe years and who may not be able to cope and get over it for a long, long time

2- someone will have to dispose of belongings belonging to the person who committed suicide and this isn't fair to them, either ... plus, there may be diary entries or mail the suicide committer might not want anybody to see ... hehe  

3- it could be messy and someone would have to clean up afterwards which also isn't fair

4- forget the body, but there's a reason for a person's spirit to be here and gifts the person has been given which should be used to their fullest extent and committing suicide cuts short the time available for changes to take place where a person may finally realize what he or she is supposed to do here on this big planet and never realize his or her potential which could have given he or she great rewards and joy and other people may have been effected and all that, in a positive way, so... it's not fair to do that to the world becuase people may be waiting for his or her 'gift' to the world which could be anything from a great cooking recipe to feeding the hungry

5- it may appear that this person is 'losing the game' at the moment because there are many overwhelming things that can happen to a person but... the 'game' is intricate in design and tomorrow circumstances will change and so will attitudes and therefore committing suicide 'today' will end all the endless possibilities of all the GREAT and BEAUTIFUL things that could happen tomorrow... so ... it's not FAIR to the person who makes the decision to commit suicide because he or she will lose out on a great deal in the long run.

6- someone might come up with a new microchip which will alleviate computers crashing and solve all the problems of transferring data where it could be intercepted and someone may come up with a cure for cancer and someone else may figure out how to transcend transportation problems and zap each and every one of our cells to a new destination and you could be on one side of the world one minute and then on the other side of the world the next without having to get on a boat or a plane or deal with lines and traffic congestion at the airport... and would anybody really want to miss that?

7- also, someone may come up with some kind of 'youth' potion or 'fountain of youth' and people may enjoy health, energy and sex with really great partners for many many years and... who would want to miss THAT?

8- and one day the person who decides to commit suicide may realize (but it will be too late) that THEY themselves were the one that was destined to stop world hunger or war or find a great cure for acne or write the most important novel ever written which would be read in English classes throughout all the major Universities in the world, or paint a painting that would have been revered or discovered a new atomic particle which would be the key to healing every disease humankind has ever known or... find out that they missed out on meeting a very very cool dude who would love them for themselves and who wouldn't judge them for anything or make them feel lacking in any way but.... he or she would have missed out and so... committing suicide would be a very very bad idea, all things considered

9- and finally... well there is no finally to this answer of mine... unless the person commits suicide and then there is a very big finally because it's all over and all the wonderful endless possibilities of life are dismissed in a wink ....

10- oh... an afterthought... about afterlife... because, unlike after dinner mints, i truly think an afterlife can alleviate bad breath and other disorders which plague humankind and the option to commit suicide would probably dismiss the possibility of an afterlife and what if... just what if... all of this is true and there really IS a GOD who loves every person so very much that each person is created as the spitting image of HIM and destined to enjoy the incredible attributes of some kind of glorious redemption and rewards??? what then??? well, then, the person who chose suicide would miss out and that just wouldn't be FAIR

so... that's my answer, and i'm sticking to it.

and for anybody out there, including you, rene... who is considering such a drastic action, i would plead with you to read over my ramblings here and then very quickly go seek professional help

because i am not a counselor... i only know that life sucks sometimes but it gets better... and sticking it out to find out all the GREAT things that can happen would be the FAIREST thing anybody could do for themselves and for the ones they love.

god bless....
i hope this helped even a little bit

please feel free to email me any time

love comes in bits and pieces. eventually the puzzle pieces fit together...

-doreen

rene
Member
since 2000-04-24
Posts 113

2 posted 2000-06-01 07:52 PM


okay, what about this,

1, if someone told me about this huge amount of pain, or just boredom they were suffering and were addamant that the best thing to do would be to step out, then i would be, if i loved this person, willing to go through my own personal suffering for the loss of them so that they would be free from pain.

2 well, thats not strictly true, in most cases yes but that stands as no argument if the person who was committing suicide had taken care before hand.

3 again, not strictly true, say for instance someone threw themself into the ocean or a furnace (see Gattacca!) then there woud be no clean up

4 talking about the purpose of spirit and intrinsic gifts is okay but it is only an opinion and im sure a suicidal person would not share it.

5 Quite true, tomorrow could be the start of a brilliant life, but it could also just get worse and worse.

6,7,8,9. well if i went to a casino and bet all the money i had on red on the roulette and lost i don't think i could convince anyone that the chance of lots of money was worth the risk of no money. also great things may happen but they may not so...

10,yes but if there is no god, what then?

i am not suicidal, r even slightly depressed, i am far too arrogant for that. but in a piece of writing i was doing suicide was involved and i thought, well whty not?

doreen peri
Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812
Virginia
3 posted 2000-06-01 08:20 PM


you said....

"1, if someone told me about this huge amount of pain, or just boredom they were suffering and were addamant that the best thing to do would be to step out, then i would be, if i loved this person, willing to go through my own personal suffering for the loss of them so that they would be free from pain."

i say....* my answer... you are just one person... each person has several hundred maybe thousands of people who know them/relate to them... plus.... you don't know the pain or mourning you would suffer, in advance... it's not worth finding out how strong you think you are*


you said....
"2 well, thats not strictly true, in most cases yes but that stands as no argument if the person who was committing suicide had taken care before hand."

I say *true. people can "tie up loose ends" before they pull their own plug. thing is, why take chances? LOL*


you said, "3 again, not strictly true, say for instance someone threw themself into the ocean or a furnace (see Gattacca!) then there woud be no clean up"

and I say, *death takes clean up no matter what the method*

you said, "4 talking about the purpose of spirit and intrinsic gifts is okay but it is only an opinion and im sure a suicidal person would not share it."

and i say, *suicidal people aren't thinking correctly... thus my previous discourse*

you said, "5 Quite true, tomorrow could be the start of a brilliant life, but it could also just get worse and worse."

to which, I say *every silver lining has a cloud*

you said, "6,7,8,9. well if i went to a casino and bet all the money i had on red on the roulette and lost i don't think i could convince anyone that the chance of lots of money was worth the risk of no money. also great things may happen but they may not so..."

and I answer, *life is not a gamble unless you don't feed the horse or exercise him*


you said, "10,yes but if there is no god, what then?"

to which, I answer, *if i were anybody, i wouldn't wanna take that chance*

you said, "i am not suicidal, r even slightly depressed, i am far too arrogant for that. but in a piece of writing i was doing suicide was involved and i thought, well whty not?"

to which I say, *indeed... why not? why not live? it's better than the alternative... and glad to hear this had nothing to do with your own state of mind... i'd be interested in reading whatever piece of creative writing you compose about this subject.... why not, indeed? why not explore all the endless possibilities! Ain't life fun?*

thanks, rene, for this very interesting question... hope i quashed the dilemma at least once... LOL

-doreen


Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
4 posted 2000-06-01 09:10 PM


"You can never lose, you can only give up"
--ex-girlfriend

Legally, I find it hard to argue a case against suicide.  Hey, I'm not a lawyer.

Socially,
I think Doreen is right on the money.  It is selfish because the act creates sadness, burdens in others. If these 'others' allow suicide (because they don't want to be seen as selfish -- which I don't have a problem with by the way), this allowance can be perceived as encouraging. There is a fine line between accepting another's actions and approving, or being seen as approving, of those actions.  Whether we like it or not, our actions and attitudes influence and change others. You can try to alleviate your responsibility to others but it is always, already there.

Spiritually,
Well, you're going to find out anyway. Why not wait until it happens naturally or accidentally.

Individually,
Often enough, the question is not whether things get worse or that they get better, it is how you perceive them. This is an individual question that involves action to change oneself, not eliminate oneself. If someone is clinically depressed, then this is beyond his or her control and should see medical attention before any decision like this can be made.  Work on changing your mind.

Statistically (some of which I've learned from people here):

Suicide rates go up as countries industrialize.

Suicide rates go down in times of war.

Suicide rates go up in times of economic recession or depression.

Why is this?

I think that when one's own survival (or of one's family, coummunity, or society) is on the line, suicide is no longer an issue. When one's status, one's 'way of life' in that perceived society is threatened, suicide is contemplated. Suicide is contemplated when one believes that one's status, one's expectation of how the world looks at he or she is 'out of joint'.  This is a perception issue.

Of course, there may be cases where such an action is warranted (thus, my legal problems) -- continual physical pain or whatever but I'd rather see these as special cases, practical exceptions to the general rule that suicide is not an appropriate action to take.

Brad

MagnoliaBlue
Member
since 2000-05-12
Posts 367

5 posted 2000-06-01 11:35 PM


I think if someone wants to think about suicide, that is their choice...But what choice do the family and friends have?

Death is permanent.Suicide is one mistake that you can never apologize for or take back.

What might you become one day? Or your children or grand children?

MagnoliaBlue


 

Temptress
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-06-15
Posts 7136
Mobile, AL
6 posted 2000-06-02 05:14 PM


I've said it before, and I'll say it again. What is wrong with suicide, is that it is a sin. Our lives are not games. They are gifts from God himself, and are not to be toyed with as we see fit.  Suicide is selfish, and selfisness is not a teaching that God has told us to follow.  If there are no dependents then maybe those people are meant for other things that cannot possibly require one to have children or even spouses.  For my life I have a new thought...
Everything for a reason...That reason being God and his plan.


 Nothing can deter a poet, for he is actuated by pure love. Who can predict his comings and goings? "Thoreau"



Temptress
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-06-15
Posts 7136
Mobile, AL
7 posted 2000-06-02 05:18 PM


PS..
I know you said "forgetting religious views", but that is almost impossible.  What it sounds like you wanted to say was that anyone having any religious views should not respond with them because not everyone has them. I hope I'm making sense, and I hope you don't think I'm attacking you on this.  Religious point of view cannot be kept out of this, because God is the only reason for our existence.


 Nothing can deter a poet, for he is actuated by pure love. Who can predict his comings and goings? "Thoreau"



rene
Member
since 2000-04-24
Posts 113

8 posted 2000-06-02 08:13 PM


glad i am that you all took the time to respond to what i find an interesting question, thankyou. however, in all of your arguments against suicide i would ask you to show one that is not an opinion, religious belief or situational argument. i just can't see any. if someone i knew or even me myself were considering suicide apart from guilt triping them and saying that  other people who were not going through what they were wanted them to continue, i'm not sure i could provide a disuasive reason.

dp, thanks for your concern about my mental health but i'm sure it's much more likley that some grissly disaster will sweep me away rather than my own hand. but i have to say i was disapointed by you saying suicidal people are not thinking properly. you have to admith that this is a gross genralization.  think it is typical of our society to lable such people as irrational etc, when often the fact is that we have all screwed up this world and our own societies so bad that suicide may well be a better idea than to continue.

doreen peri
Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812
Virginia
9 posted 2000-06-02 08:32 PM


in 1996 when my father was dying of ALS (lou gehrig's disease) and a prisoner in his own paralyzed body... we (the entire family) actually discussed the option... for a short time... he was absolutely in his right mind and so were we... he decided to deal with the disease and we took care of him until he died... a noble, difficult and overwhelmingly painful experience, but... we were all so proud of him... and he was so proud of himself, i'm sure... at the end, he couldn't speak so he couldn't say but i know he knew he made the 'right' decision not to 'escape' from what he knew was coming... (during the exact same time he was dying, ted koppel of nightline was interviewing morrie schwartz, who was dying of the same disease... you may remember it ... later, the book 'tuesdays with morrie' and the movie came out)

so anyway, in THAT particular circumstance there was a rational, intelligent human being weighing the possibility of 'bowing out gracefully' by ending his life before he had to suffer longer... and he was thinking right... no question

but, in most other circumstances where people consider suicide, i truly believe they are under a great deal of stress and not thinking rationally about the fact that things WILL get better (for him, things were not going to get 'better'... he was going to die a slow death trapped inside a paralyzed body and sufficate... and being a nuclear physicist and one of the most intelligent persons EVER, he thought about the rational possibility of avoiding all that)... but not with most... MOST people who consider suicide are not in his situation...

AND... there are MANY more solutions to the sometimes horrible pain and agony of life than suicide...professional counselors are available who can be not only mentors but friends... medication is available to help 'pull' the person out of the depths of depression and pain....support groups are available... love is out there and people genuinely CARE about other people.... life CAN be a glorious experience and sticking it out to come THROUGH the painful times can have some glorious rewards... pain subsides and joy comes... as Thomas Aquinas said, "There can be no joy without pain"

but then again, maybe you're right, rene

all of this MAY be just my opinion not based on any fact. the only way to actually know is to talk to people who were suicidal and who are now enjoying a fulfilling life and find out if they are happy they stuck it out.... I'm sure there are websites available with people's testimonials to this and support groups all over the world where people will attest to the fact that they were very very glad they handled and rode out the pain and did NOT choose suicide... i would say that this would make my opinion not just an opinion, but fact

as for me? well, i'll keep what you say in mind because right now life SUCKS for me and maybe i'd be better off just calling it quits.



[This message has been edited by doreen peri (edited 06-02-2000).]

7
Member
since 2000-04-26
Posts 113
Amherst, MA, USA
10 posted 2000-06-03 07:30 PM


Philosophically, to me, there's nothing at all "wrong" with it. Wrong as in morality. The way I see it, if you don't want to be somewhere, it essentially wouldn't hurt anyone, and I believe that something is only "wrong" if it hurts someone.

Protagoras said that "Man is the measure of all things," meaning that we create all morality. This sounds like a very arrogant philosophy, but it's not if you take into account that you should respect other people's feelings. I think that there is no "judgement day," no karma or reward or punishment for how we live our lives. But that doesn't mean we should just go around doing whatever we want. Because, considering our culture, it would cause quite a bit of pain to others to just disappear and leave them wondering what they did wrong or what is happening to you now.

I don't like to use the words right and wrong, because that assumes that there is someone out there regulating our morality, and I think it comes from within. And if it comes from within, then if you feel that it is right for you to kill yourself, then that is not wrong. But it is hurtful, and if you care about the people around you, I don't think it would be right from within either.

7

P.S. I'm thinking pretty clearly considering I'm on Codine, huh?   I had elbow surgery yesterday, and the world suddenly seems a lot prettier. But the thing about this stuff is that if you want to act normal you can, but it's so fun to say the stupid things that come to your mind.

doreen peri
Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812
Virginia
11 posted 2000-06-03 09:38 PM


ok. i think you're both talking me into it. nothing wrong with it, right?

actually, might just be a good solution for me at the moment

thanks.

StarrGazer
Senior Member
since 2000-03-05
Posts 679
Texas
12 posted 2000-06-04 03:25 PM


Ok just my  thoughts on suicide... Haveing been there  and tried it, it's a permanent  solution to a temporary problem. I can understand why people sometimes feel the need to end it, but I can also argue all the reasons one should not.  Suicide and depression seem to go hand in hand  I'm always thinking of ways to end things but then there are so many reasons not to and one of them always  seems to occur to me at the right moment. In the end it all boils down to a personal choice there is no right or wrong but if someone is seriously contemplating suicide they should talk to a  doctor or even a good friend and  tell them how they feel and get help.
rene
Member
since 2000-04-24
Posts 113

13 posted 2000-06-04 07:42 PM


dp, i hope you dont kill yourself. i mean to me you are just letters on a screen so to me it wouldn't make any difference really. however you don't fit into my idea of suicide not bieng wrong. firstly i know you have emotional dependants, from reading your poems i can tell that people here know you and care for you. so if you do kill yourself, it will be wrong, in my opinion. this is clearly an opinion you hold as explained in your previous messages so for you to kill yourself now would be foolish and actually quite weak. that is not just a personal opinion of mine but it is what i have gathered through the information you put forward of your beliefs. also don't let yourself be talked into things, if you have read what has been posted and considered it in view of your own situation and decided you fit into the argument that says suicide is ok then well, fine, your choice and i would support you. but i am nearly totally sure that is not what has happened so think a bit more if you had already decided. i would say, that considering suicide in a, well i guess half hearted way, was a good thing to do because it reminds us of how easily we can be plucked from existence. anyway, do your own thing, may or may not hear from you soon,
rene

doreen peri
Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812
Virginia
14 posted 2000-06-04 08:56 PM


ok rene.
i'll think about it.

The thing is, when you put such strong words out to tell people that it is 'OK' to commit suicide, then, what do you expect? Someone may actually take you seriously.

Think about that.

And thanks so very much for your comment,

" i mean to me you are just letters on a screen so to me it wouldn't make any difference really. "


and

"anyway, do your own thing, may or may not hear from you soon"

You don't even know me. what if i were a drug addicted teenager who has problems in school and at home and low self esteem and was sitting here reading all this with a bottle of pills sitting next to me? What if i'm just ME and i happen to be a human being and in a distraught state of mind actually considering suicide and you tell me it's an ok thing to do and then come back to tell me i'm just a name on a screen and it doesn't really matter anyway?

Do you care?

Nope.

I don't think so.

So, bottom line is, if you don't care about PEOPLE don't write words which indicate that you couldn't care less about whether they live or die.... if you really don't care, you are in no position to tell people they shouldn't care about their own lives, y'know?

Some people might take you seriously.

And believe it or not... this is a public forum and many people of many different age groups in many different life circumstances read this and...

you have a responsibility to not post arguments glorifying suicide.

Right now, your comments which i just quoted have really made me angry and i'm upset, too, that anybody would think that it was OK to NOT care about a fellow human being.

As for me... well, who the hell cares?

If i didn't believe in free speech and lack of censorship, i would request this topic be deleted from these forums.

But since i do, i will just say that i hope people think twice next time about posting strong arguments which could negatively effect someone in a weak state of mind...

a mental state which i hope you don't have to visit one day. (because, even though i think your postings here were VERY irresponsible and even though YOU are just a name on a screen... i realize that BEHIND THAT NAME ON THE SCREEN IS A HUMAN BEING WHO DESERVES RESPECT, LOVE, COMPASSION AND DIGNITY...!)

I truly hope that you don't find yourself in a state of mind to consider suicide where the feedback you get from other human beings is... "It doesn't really matter. Go ahead. I'll support you in it. It's your choice. Who cares anyway? I don't even know you."

We all have a moral obligation for not negatively influencing each other... of course this is my opinion... but then again, i am just a name on a screen and it wouldn't matter to you one way or another.

-doreen
(a real person who actually breathes, thinks, and feels and who is NOT just a name on a screen, whether you give a s*h*i*t or not)


StarrGazer
Senior Member
since 2000-03-05
Posts 679
Texas
15 posted 2000-06-04 09:25 PM


Doreen,
     I hope you were not serious in your statement, as I've said I've been in that  position and I know it is not a fun place to be... and I have to agree that  it seems that Rene's remarks say in a way it's okay do it you don't matter anyway which is not a  stance I'd care to support... It's not okay think about the impact your actions will have upon others who know you!!! It's true you may just be a name or a number to me BUT there are others close to you that will be affected by your actions
I hope that no one was negatively influenced by these threads I don't think that in any way they were a statment saying that it is okay to commit suicide and I pray that if any one is contemplating such an action they seek help
If anyone needs to talk about these feelings they can email me shancrider@icqmail.com as I may not have the answers but I'm there to listen ...

7
Member
since 2000-04-26
Posts 113
Amherst, MA, USA
16 posted 2000-06-04 09:50 PM


I think... maybe I shouldn't have spoken so coldly and philisophically without noticing that there are actually people here taking these posts as advice. As this is the Philosophy forum I took it as a purely hypothetical arguement... but if you are thinking about suicide, please note my later comments on how it would affect the people around you. Whether it's "wrong" or not, with all morality subtracted... at least think for a while, about who you will hurt.

It's not weakness. It's a solution in your mind, and who is to tell you it is a bad one? But knowing how our society reacts to this particular solution... at least give that a good consideration, and decide if you care enough about your loved ones to save them the pain.

Best wishes,
7

doreen peri
Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812
Virginia
17 posted 2000-06-04 10:05 PM


Starrgazer, your response was compassionate and caring... what i would expect of another human being... and i do thank you for that

the point is....

when people publically argue that suicide is OK, not knowing their audience and the state of mind of their audience, then isn't that perhaps a bit irresponsible?

you, starrgazer, have made a point here that i made in my original statements in this thread... if for no other reason... it is NOT OK because of  how it will effect others

You just said in your last post, "I hope that no one was negatively influenced by these threads I don't think that in any way they were a statment saying that it is okay to commit suicide and I pray that if any one is contemplating such an action they seek help"

WELL, I HOPE SO TOO!!!!!!!

I hope the same and I applaud you on welcoming people to email you and thank you for what appears to be sincere concerns for people in general and for me and my welfare.

I'm ok. honestly. I am not suicidal.

But who knows? maybe the next person who reads this thread may be influenced into thinking that it IS OK.... and that's NOT OK!!!!!

People walk a tightrope when discussing these issues, especially when they present arguments in a public forum that make suicide a valid solution. Suicide is not a valid solution for anybody. Ever.

And people should be accountable for what they proclaim.

If this thread DOES influence just one human being on this planet to believe that suicide is OK... then shame on all those who made those kind of statements.

Who knows who's reading this?

Thank you again for your concern, Starrgazer, and again... I am fine and not considering suicide.

I am still upset and angry about Rene's comments which clearly dismiss me as a person... and therefore clearly dismiss every other person who may be reading this... and possibly could be persuasive to some people to go ahead with such a dire, destructive, and tragic act.

I for one, wouldn't want to have their blood on my hands.

Please people... THINK... before you type what's on your mind! You can call me opinionated or call me whatever you want...but I feel that ALL PEOPLE HAVE AN ULTIMATE RESPONSIBILITY FOR EACH OTHER and it just isn't RIGHT (yes, i do believe there IS a 'right' and a 'wrong') to tell people it's ok to commit suicide.

It's called "social responsibility". What happened to that????????

and again... to repeat myself... rene's statements to me that didn't matter to her anyway because i was just a name on the screen were totally irresponsible.

-dp

7
Member
since 2000-04-26
Posts 113
Amherst, MA, USA
18 posted 2000-06-04 11:25 PM


I do not wish to get involved in a flame-throwing battle, but I would just like to remind everyone that the question simply asks people's opinions, and it is only fair to allow people to state those opinions when asked. And if that opinion happens to be that suicide is OK, that opinion should be respected as much as anyone else's. However, I haven't read any posts here that seem to encourage suicide. There are a few people who say it is a personal choice, but while it is a social responsibility to help each other, it is also a responsibility to yourself to take other people's opinions with a grain of salt. I most certainly take responsibility for what I have said, but there is a certain amount of responsibility that should be taken by the reader as well.

And if anyone reading these posts is contemplating suicide, I hope you seek professional help instead of seeking answers from a bunch of babbling poets on the Internet... I think we all care about each other here but there is some help we just can't give through... well... words on a screen. It will save you and your loved ones from a lot of pain if you make the decision to help yourself.

Truthfully thine,
7

Elizabeth
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Posts 6871
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19 posted 2000-06-05 09:49 AM


Um...I think the idea here is that when people argue for or against suicide, they are thinking of what THEY would do. I know, because that has been my stand--that it's ok for "someone" to kill themsleves because "someone" is tired of everything, all the while putting myself in the place of that "someone". If someone I cared about was suicidal, I would be one hundred percent against it and arguing accordingly. I would not dream of saying, "Sure, go ahead. It's your choice, and who am I to block your path?" And this is all from my personal experience. I guess people promote and glorify suicide because it is what they want for themselves, and they don't want to be told what they can and can't do in their own situation.

The bottom line is that suicide is wrong. Even if you have the idea that no one cares and you have nothing--well, no one has no one. There is always someone or something that will be affected by your going.

Elizabeth


 And this I say to you: why? Why? Just tell me why, so I can understand. Why?



serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

20 posted 2000-06-05 10:44 AM


I have lost seven people in my life---three of which were brother and sisters from the same family...doreen, I'm with you in your anger here.  Witness first hand the devastation of a family and you will know that there is no such thing as taking your own life.  They took their loved ones with them...It was spiritual MURDER.  It will soon be the anniversary of my cousin's death--she took her own life on Father's Day, and now her father has been drunk for 15 years.

Pain?  Perhaps theirs did go away...but the pain they left behind will never be undone...

AND THAT CANNOT BE PHILOSOPHIZED AWAY.

[This message has been edited by serenity (edited 06-05-2000).]

Elizabeth
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Minnesota
21 posted 2000-06-05 11:12 AM


And also, if someone holds the opinion that suicide is OK, and we all just sit there and respect that, 'cause hey it's their opinion, that is just passively okaying something we know is wrong. If someone came in here and posted the "opinion" that it is perfectly acceptable to bring a gun into a school or a fast-food restaurant or whatever and open fire, I think we would all pretty much agree that it was wrong and we would all state so. Why is suicide any different? Because someone is killing themselves as opposed to taking the life of another person? It used to be the case, and maybe it still is, that someone who attempted suicide and failed was put in jail, because it was murder. While I agree that people should be able to hold their own opinions, I think this goes beyond just a personal opinion. This is a matter of right and wrong, and if we play ideas like this down...

WE ARE SAYING IT IS OKAY TO COMMIT SUICIDE. This can even be stretched to the point of encouraging someone to kill themselves, because we are telling them it does not matter either way.


But it does matter. If one of the members here killed themselves, we would ALL be affected, whether we realize it or not. That person would not be around anymore, to post and read and participate, and that in itself is an effect.

Our words (believe it or not!) have an impact on those who listen. It's said that the pen is mightier than the sword, and it very well can be, especially in cases like right and wrong as this one is.

Elizabeth
< !signature-->

And by the way--all that I have stated is coming from someone who has contemplated suicide, so I know firsthand. If I were in that condition while I was reading this, what kind of impact would it have on me? Think about it.

 And this I say to you: why? Why? Just tell me why, so I can understand. Why?




[This message has been edited by Elizabeth (edited 06-05-2000).]

doreen peri
Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812
Virginia
22 posted 2000-06-05 12:32 PM


7-
This isn't a flame throwing battle. It's more important than just people parlaying their opinions. Yes, the reader has responsibility, sure. But, especially BECAUSE of the subject matter, there may be readers who are particularly interested in the question because they are in a situation where they themselves are thinking of this very question in regards to their own lives... and who may not be able properly discern their own responsibility to weigh the points of the argument because of their depressed and confused state of mind.

Elizabeth and Serenity.... thank you both so much for finding this thread and responding. I couldn't have said it better... you both have stepped up to the mic and asserted your responsibility to speak on this subject and to take a stand. Words are very very powerful, indeed. Comments on this subject matter should be carefully thought out prior to being penned. People today all too easily say there is no black & white, there is no 'right' or 'wrong'... all there is.... is opinion, they say. To me, that's very sad. Again, thank you both for speaking out. For a while there, I was feeling totally dismissed... not only for my comments, but as an actual breathing, thinking, caring human sitting here typing. Again, thank you both.

Serenity, I was very sorry to read of your losses to suicide and how devestating it has been to the family. Your statement about 'how this cannot be philosophized away' was right on the money. God bless.

7
Member
since 2000-04-26
Posts 113
Amherst, MA, USA
23 posted 2000-06-05 01:31 PM


This has turned into such an emotional discussion that I don't think it belongs in the Philosophy forum. Does anyone agree? All I know is that I come here, to this specific forum, to find *philisophical* questions and state my opinion in a rational way. I am truly offended that there are people who don't think that's OK.

Everything we believe is a product of our culture. We believe suicide is bad because that is how we have been brought up. But in some cultures it is different, and life is looked at differently... and I don't think anyone is trying to push their beliefs on anyone, except for those who say, quite closed-mindedly, "this is wrong and this is right and anyone who says differently shouldn't be allowed to speak." It is hard for people to talk about this sort of thing philisophically when it is such an emotional topic, so if there are people here who want to look at it as anything other than a rational, hypothetical argument, I suggest they take it elsewhere. I don't have the authority to command that, but it would certainly make me a lot more comfortable.

To the people who have contemplated suicide, I am glad you are still here to talk about it. And I urge you to try to find help if you consider it again. As so many of us have, I have been through it, and I'm happy that I gained control of my life again. I don't think you have to worry about any of these posts triggering a self-destructive act, because it is made very clear by almost all of us that we do not think it's OK. If someone asks a question however... all sorts of responses should be expected.

With a grain of salt,
7

Elizabeth
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Member Ascendant
since 1999-06-07
Posts 6871
Minnesota
24 posted 2000-06-05 02:03 PM


7-you say that the reason we believe suicide is wrong is because we have been brought up that way by our culture. I beg to differ. The reason I think suicide is wrong is based on the simple fact that it is wrong. There are plenty of things that society and culture say that I do NOT agree with. If we are not taught morality, how would we survive? If there is no right and wrong, then people would be free to do as they choose with no consequences whatsoever. Take all the murders and other crimes that go on today. Is it okay for murderers to up and decide to kill someone? Should they be allowed to walk the streets doing as they please? I think not. And it is not just because "society says so" that I believe that. It's based on the simple fact that when someone makes a choice, they have the responsibility to take on whatever consequences come with that choice.

After you stated that everything we believe is nothing more than a product of the culture we live in-therefore implying that there is no real "right" or "wrong" because everything we believe was spoon-fed to us and we did not choose to think that way for ourselves-you go on to state that those of us who consider suicide should seek help. Why do you say that, if the belief that suicide is wrong is just someone's opinion? You're talking out of both sides of your mouth there. Either you think something is wrong and shouldn't be done, or you think that it doesn't matter and it's a matter of personal choice.

If there is no right or wrong, there are no guidelines for human beings. Some things are acceptable and others are not, period. Maybe that's considered closed-minded, but it's how things are. There needs to be a boundary, otherwise you have utter and total chaos.

Elizabeth

P.S. Yes, when someone asks a question, they should expect varying responses. That does not mean they should agree with each and every one.


 And this I say to you: why? Why? Just tell me why, so I can understand. Why?



7
Member
since 2000-04-26
Posts 113
Amherst, MA, USA
25 posted 2000-06-05 02:21 PM


I personally was not arguing the belief that suicide is OK. I was simply defending the rights of those who do think so.

I think I'm going to stop replying here because every time I get involved in opinion topics... there's this odd phenomenon that happens when it becomes personal; it feels like I am being accused of being a bad person. There's this terrible feeling when I see certain words directed at me on the screen that proclaim a great deal of disgust or anger... it causes this miniature explosion in my heart and I chastise myself for ever speaking, for ever giving people access to my vulnerabilities. So, I'll do my best to explain myself here, and hope that there are no grudges held... because really we are all just trying to teach what we believe is helpful and good, and that is nothing to be angry about.

I don't think it's OK, but I don't think it's wrong. There is a fine line between morality and feeling. I don't think we were judged by a higher power, and therefore I think that people's right and wrong are all different. Only you can decide your morality.

BUT, I will say this again, just because we don't all agree on right and wrong doesn't mean we shouldn't respect each other. So if someone thinks it's not wrong to murder people, then that's their right to believe it. But it's when you begin to interfere with people's lives and feelings - all morality aside - that's when I would try to stop it. So, the reason I said that if someone is considering suicide that they should get help, was me stating my belief that it will hurt people and I do not want that to happen. Suicide is not something I support, but I support people's opinions, provided that they don't act on them in a way that interferes with my belief system.

It's really quite complicated, and I could go much deeper into it, but I can tell my babbling is not welcome in this particular topic. I will step back, as I often find myself doing once I begin repeating myself. Some people just can't be convinced, and that's OK. But is very important that we all get along, so I truly hope I have not offended anyone by stating what I believe are rational thoughts.

Truthfully thine,
7

rene
Member
since 2000-04-24
Posts 113

26 posted 2000-06-05 07:35 PM


dp, you have really annoyed me here. dod i say you were just words on a screen? did i say suicide is ok? no i didn't and don't ever presume to twist my words against my ideas. what i said was to ME you are just words on a screen, which you are. i don't know you , i have no contact with you except these words on this screen, i actually have no interest in you except these words on this screen which is why i am spending my time writing in a fourum instead of joining pen pal clubs. if it offends you that i have no interest in anybody personaly well, that really makes no difference to me, it is my personal choice to think that way just as it may be yours to feel some personal connection to each member of passions. so no, i do not think you are just words on a screen, i know that to some people you are a person with whom they share feelings, experiences and all the same things i share with the people i know. but when have we ever done anything but displayed and read each others words on each others screens? that is why to me you are just words on a screen.
did i say suicide is ok, no i didn't, did i say that i think it is ok in some specific circumstances? yes i did, maybe you would benefit from reading my post again.
also did i not say that it was obvious from your previous posts that you were not in the specific circumstance where i would find it ok for you to commit suicide, i said that you seemed to have emotional dependants who would be affected by your death. then i actually affirmed you as a human by acknowledging the gift that god is said to have given just to humans- free will. i said that in the end it was your choice because i would not be so arrogant as to tell another person what is right or wrong for them, i would only share my opinion.

Lost Dreamer
Member Elite
since 1999-06-20
Posts 2464
Somewhere near the Rainbow
27 posted 2000-06-05 08:36 PM


All right I am gonna try and state my opinion here, only because how devastating an event suicide truly is. It's desperation that brings one to it, yet most of the time they look for a saving grace. Someone to notice and convince them out of it, who are we if we say go ahead I understand, or if we fail to notice the signs all together. The delicate nature of the situation cries for professional help, but how many of these people would or could trust a stranger, they need that someone special to convince them they are loved and needed and things can get better. They need to know you as their friend or relative will be there to guide them in the right direction. What's the right direction? The one where you offer to carry them through their turmoil's, help them to see the beauty of life around them. Yes, I know they don't see it and maybe you don't either, but then you need to imagine it yourself for the aid of healing. Healing a lost soul who believes life has ended for them so why not just take their life. You can have a positive impact on the situation by showing that you care, sometimes that's all it takes. I say this cause I reached out to a stranger that I feared for his life, I was searching poetry pages on the worldwide web and came across his site. His poetry was very suicidal in content, very depressing, I went into panic mode. (See ever since a student in my son's math class who my son knew, and I even gave a ride home to once committed suicide and left a poem behind about his feelings, I have tried to be more focused.) I read all the poems at this young man's site and decided I would E-mail him and tell him how important he is and how many people in his life love him, now I did not know this person, but God forbid I would take the chance of not trying to persuade someone to stay alive. Than I prayed that this person did not already try the act of suicide. It turned out he didn't and we became friends which than led to me being his Cyber Mom. It was not easy I spent many nights talking to him for hours when I could have been spending time with my husband or just something more I preferred to do, but everytime he instant messaged me I felt I had an obligation to talk to him. I knew he needed to talk if he did message me so I listened and tried to help when I could. He actually is an amazing young man with more faith in God than I even have at times, but he was going through a down time and needed someone, and I turned out to be the someone that mattered. So the next time you want to tell someone it's all right to take their life, stop and think if there's something that maybe you can do that could change their mind.
doreen peri
Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812
Virginia
28 posted 2000-06-05 09:23 PM


Ok, rene, now I'll quote you  and explain how I interpreted your wording. I'll preface and  end this by saying that if I have misinterpreted, I apologize. But at least you'll be able to see how I came up thinking  that you seem to be supporting a person's decision to commit suicide if that's what they choose to do.... a stance which I consider irresponsible to all those who may be reading this.

Also, before I start, I'd like to say that you were not the only one who made comments here which argued that in some circumstances, suicide might be OK... you were the only one who asked me how I came to believe I understood what YOU said... so, I'll answer you.

rene: "dp, i hope you dont kill yourself. i mean to me you are just letters on a screen so to me it wouldn't make any difference really."

doreen's interpretation:  To me, that says I am just letters on a screen and if I committed suicide, it wouldn't make any difference, really. Isn't that what it says?

rene: "however you don't fit into my idea of suicide not bieng wrong. firstly i know you have emotional dependants, from reading your poems i can tell that people here know you and care for you. so if you do kill yourself, it will be wrong, in my opinion. this is clearly an opinion you hold as explained in your previous messages so for you to kill yourself now would be foolish and actually quite weak."

doreen's interpretation: First of all, I don't understand what the first sentence means. What is your idea of suicide "not being wrong"? That's a double negative and I didn't follow it. However, reading on, your logic seems to go back to MY original argument that it was wrong to commit suicide because of how negatively it would effect loved ones. It seems that you're going back to MY feelings about it.

AND yet, previously, you said,

rene: "if someone told me about this huge amount of pain, or just boredom they were suffering and were addamant that the best thing to do would be to step out, then i would be, if i loved this person, willing to go through my own personal suffering for the loss of them so that they would be free from pain."

doreen's interpretation: And this says to me that it doesn't matter whether my loved ones would be hurt so therefore how could I be "foolish" and "weak"?  Perhaps I read it wrong. I dunno.

rene: "also don't let yourself be talked into things, if you have read what has been posted and considered it in view of your own situation and decided you fit into the argument that says suicide is ok then well, fine, your choice and i would support you."

doreen's interpretation: This says to me that if I, as a reader of your words, decide that what I've read here demonstrates the suicide is OK, then it's ok with you and not only that, you would "support" me in my endeavor. To me, yes, this says that it COULD be ok to commit suicide as long as I believe it's what I want to do to myself. And I consider this irresponsible wording because someone could believe that if they think it's ok at the moment they are reading this and considering it, then it IS.

This statement about supporting me in my decision to go through with suicide was your main statement which led me to believe that you think suicide can be OK. It's a personal choice, it said to me. Perhaps I read it wrong. I dunno.

rene: "but i am nearly totally sure that is not what has happened so think a bit more if you had already decided. i would say, that considering suicide in a, well i guess half hearted way, was a good thing to do because it reminds us of how easily we can be plucked from existence."

doreen's interpretation: I thought your comment to "think a bit more" was very kind, actually. But then you said,

rene: "anyway, do your own thing, may or may not hear from you soon,"

doreen's interpretation: I honestly thought this statement was a total dismissal of me as a person. "do your own thing"? "may or may not hear from you soon"? C'mon rene... do you really think that would be a responsible appropriate thing to say to someone who just actually MAY be considering suicide? You clearly state that you don't know me and don't care about me and that's your choice not to build friendships or get to know people personally here at Passions. And that's fine. Yet, then you turn around and say you KNOW that I would not be the type of person to do it. Well, if you don't KNOW ME, then how the hell do you know what's on my mind?

Plus, my main point in all of this is that you can't possibly know EVERYBODY on the worldwide web who may be reading this and words stating that you would support someone if that was their choice were irresponsible, IMHO.

That's all. Now.... let me again say that if I have misinterpreted or misread ANYTHING that you wrote, I apologize. It wasn't my intention to start an argument. My intention was to show that taking an argumentive stance to support someone's possible pending act of suicide is not a good idea and is dangerous.

I will end this post and won't post on this topic again. My final comment is that perhaps this type of question should not be posed at all in a philosophy forum or any other public forum where misinterpretations could ensue and where people's lives may be effected.

Perhaps this type of discussion is best left to those who know each other well.


[This message has been edited by doreen peri (edited 06-05-2000).]

Rosebud1229
Senior Member
since 2000-04-05
Posts 1813
North Carolina
29 posted 2000-06-05 10:37 PM


To me personally, I think suicide is just an easy way out. Also do you know how many people commit suicide just as a means for attention. So much for attention after your dead. Why not put your energies into life and make something of it. If not to help others then to help yourself. I think when a person wants to kill  themselves its more about not feeling like they have anyone who cares.  Start thinking about life and focusing on how many die each day and how many babies that never even make it into this world that never even had a chance. Yes suicide may take away the pain, but then again it also takes away the joy of everything including life.

 

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
30 posted 2000-06-05 11:40 PM


Doreen said:

"I will end this post and won't post on this topic again. My final comment is that perhaps this type of question should not be posed at all in a philosophy forum or any other public forum where misinterpretations could ensue and where people's lives may be effected."

No.  Your argument could be applied to any situation and is tantamount to foreclosing all conversation, all communication whatsoever.  Misinterpretation is a fact of life.

People's lives are influenced by ideas, belief systems, and philosophies all the time and there is no way anyone can control this. As I read through this thread, by far the majority of people are adamantly against the practice of suicide. Why do these posts 'not count' in your system of thinking, Doreen (Oh yeah, that's right you're not posting here again)?    

The answer is never to quiet people but to argue, persuade, debate them. You won't always win, perhaps, but you will have the opportunity to attempt persuasion.

The only way a true plurality of ideas can exist is by allowing the most controversial ideas the same space as those that most people agree with.

The only reason I would even think about closing this thread would be if this moved from adamant and emotional disagreement (which I'm not particularly comfortable with)
and into personal threats or attack against someone else. Again, misunderstandings are common place (even among close friends) and the answer is more talk, not less.

I agree with Rene that this question is a hypothetical. It is an attempt to discuss the legal, moral, social, and spiritual basis for our opinion on suicide. However, opinions never come out of thin air and are always based on the historically, socially situated individual. The anecdotal evidence placed here is just as valid as statistical or logical arguments.

But I wouldn't mind if everybody cooled down a little bit before posting again.  

Brad

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

31 posted 2000-06-06 04:13 AM


Thank you much, Brad.  And I certainly wouldn't want the intensity of my opinions to stop others from voice.  I got a little emotional.  That happens after seven funerals...forgive me?  

But seriously...my emotional reaction to this argument stands as testimony to the effects THAT I KNOW...suicide is not a solitary mission, nor is life...

Much love to you all.  Would it be too trite to say, "PEACE"?

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
32 posted 2000-06-06 04:36 AM


Thanks serenity.  

I just wanted to add that some topics are indeed off limits for this forum. I try to follow Ron's rules and could not, in good conscience, allow certain issues to be entertained here. About ten popped into my head as soon as I posted my above comment.  Actually, I think most of those 'taboo' issues are really only 'mock' stances intended to shock rather than stimulate thought and speculation.  I honestly believe that any serious philosophical concern is allowable in this forum.

So don't try to test me, okay?      

To my knowledge, suicide is allowable. It reaches for the very core of liberalism, individualism, and the contradictions within those particular 'isms'. However, if Ron decides that this isn't appropriate for this forum, then I will most happily take the proper action.

Thanks,
Brad

doreen peri
Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812
Virginia
33 posted 2000-06-06 07:40 AM


Ok. I lied. I'm posting again.
A short one this time. (the crowd lets out a sigh of relief).

First, the key words in my last statement were "public forum", Brad. In my opinion, this type of subject for purposes of philosophy MAY be better left to University level classrooms. That's just my opinion. I may be totally wrong. I adamently agree with your statements, "Misinterpretation is a fact of life. People's lives are influenced by ideas, belief systems, and philosophies all the time." Exactly. That's why I apologized repeatedly  if I misinterpreted anything here.

Brad, you also said, "The answer is never to quiet people but to argue, persuade, debate them. You won't always win, perhaps, but you will have the opportunity to attempt persuasion." I TOTALLY agree, which is what I was trying to do.... debate and persuade.

Brad, you also said, "The only way a true plurality of ideas can exist is by allowing the most controversial ideas the same space as those that most people agree with." Another statement I would totally and adamently agree with.

I never proposed closing the thread. I only said I wasn't sure this type of forum was the proper place for this type of argument. I am no philosopher so perhaps I shouldn't have posted in this forum to begin with.

You said, "As I read through this thread, by far the majority of people are adamantly against the practice of suicide. Why do these posts 'not count' in your system of thinking, Doreen". They counted a great deal!  I responded to several people telling them I agreed with them and thanked them for posting. But I wasn't debating with them. One doesn't debate people who agree with you.

So, if I've riled anybody or upset anybody or misinterpreted anybody, I will apologize again (how many apologies do I have to post here?)

And I also apologize for letting the subject matter effect me emotionally. Maybe I'm just not too good at debating hypothetical issues. As I said, perhaps I shouldn't have participated in this forum to begin with.

Brad said, "Your argument could be applied to any situation and is tantamount to foreclosing all conversation, all communication whatsoever." I never meant to imply anything NEAR that. Without conversation and communication, what's it all about?

I'm just a bit (ha! a bit??) overly tired. Have been under a lot of stress and battling depression. Please excuse me. (Whoops, i guess I lied again. This one isn't really short is it?).

Carry on.


[This message has been edited by doreen peri (edited 06-06-2000).]

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
34 posted 2000-06-06 09:44 AM


Doreen,
Thanks. I definitely thought you were hinting in that direction. Guess it's my turn to offer an apology.      

Talk to you tomorrow,

Brad


fjones
Member
since 1999-06-07
Posts 98
MS
35 posted 2000-06-07 11:29 AM


Any action you take always effects someone.
This is a fact of life. Are you later held accountable for your actions? Well you may not know for sure until it's to late. I'm almost sure you can't come back from the grave to rectify past actions.  

Faye

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669
Michigan, US
36 posted 2000-06-07 11:46 AM


I suspect my response may surprise a few people, especially considering the rather strict guidelines Passions has about suicide in poetry and prose. And, yes, in discussions, too. Before I talk about suicide, per se, I think it worth a moment to talk about why those guidelines exist.

There are two reasons we have guidelines.

The first is to avoid the utter garbage we all know exists for no reason other than to gain attention. While I welcome an honest exploration of almost any subject, I don't respond well to manipulation and shock value. It doesn't make me think, as the writers of that genre often claim. It just makes me mad. And it is rarely, if ever, honest. A bit over a year ago, myself and a handful of like-minded people decided we frankly didn't want to read any more of it and these forums were created. It was our sanctuary from sensationalism. Our membership has grown a tad, but I have always operated under the assumption that everyone who has since joined us appreciates that freedom from excess as much as did the earliest members. The first reason for guidelines, then, is very selfish and fairly simple. The second reason is more complex.

When doctors swear their Hippocratic Oath they are actually making two promises: To help people and - first and foremost - to do no harm. Were everyone who frequents our home as strong-minded as most of you, there would be little need for guidelines. If all of the teens and young people had parents who would take the time to discuss and explore what young eyes read here, there would be little need for guidelines. Were critical thinking still taught in our schools, there would be little need for guidelines. But lacking those criteria, as we most assuredly are, many of our guidelines are in place to help insure we do no harm. I don't believe people are stupid. But I do think some are often misinformed and highly impressionable. It's great when we're able to help people. And, judging by my email, I think we do that far more than many of you might believe. But, like a physician, we must be careful that our efforts to help cannot cause inadvertent harm.

There have been people over the past year who have argued that poetry glorifying suicide and other self-destructive behaviors should be allowed and even encouraged at Passions. It is cathartic, they say. It gives the writer the one thing they most need - someone willing to listen. And, perhaps most convincing, they contend it allows us all the opportunity to offer a helping hand to those who most need our support.

I wish we could help every troubled soul. Unfortunately, we're not really trained to do that. Listening isn't enough. We're writers, not therapists. We're poets, not professionals. The only valid answer we can offer is advice to seek help. Real help, not glib answers. To try doing more is to risk doing harm. Our very efforts to listen and be there for someone could encourage them to push for more, to push harder, to go beyond that final step from which they cannot return. I'm not a professional, but I do believe that encouraging troubled people to depend on others - on us - is the wrong answer. It takes training and experience to know when someone can be dependent and when that dependence should be severed. By trying to help them, we begin a process we haven't the training to control. Does that mean we should ignore them? Of course not. But I think our help should be limited to repeated attempts to get them into the hands of trained professionals. To attempt more is to give them only the semblance of what they need and encourage them to "get by" without real help.

A person in the midst of suicidal depression is dry tinder, and I'd hate to think a poem on this site glorifying suicide - or even an honest discussion exploring the moral dilemna of suicide - might be the match that sets them ablaze. The guidelines against suicide poetry were my attempt, however futile, to both prevent the propensity for glib answers and to insure no one would be encouraged to take there own life. The guidelines are there to to insure we do no harm.

I have always felt largely justified in disallowing poetry that encourages one person to hurt another. I think as a society we have the right and duty to dictate what one human being can do to another. I am, however, far less comfortable with trying to dictate what one human being can do to themselves. Suicide is a very personal thing. One could argue it hurts other people (as many of you have argued in this thread), but any choice we make has that same potential. By and large, suicide is a victimless crime - and to my mind there is no greater oxymoron in our society.

But does that make it right?

When I was 19 and stationed in San Diego, I found myself abruptly called home on emergency leave because my birth father was diagnosed with cancer. The Red Cross acted very swiftly, yet by the time I arrived in Michigan, he weighed less than a hundred pounds and had lost all semblance of human thought. He was 43 years old. That was my first brush with the big C and, for the next two decades, my only brush. In 1994, my doctor told me he had found a large, tennis ball-sized tumor in my bladder. The doctor was a GP and he immediately made me an appointment with a specialist - for a week hence. I'm sure that week would have been Hell for anyone, but I think it was worse for me than most because of my own ignorance. I was almost exactly the same age as my father. The only thing I knew about cancer was from witnessing his death. For those seven days I was forced to wait, I KNEW I was going to die. It wasn't just fear or worry, it was absolute knowledge, because that's all I had ever seen. I didn't consider alternatives, because I didn't realize there were alternatives. It's difficult, now, to describe my certitude because, in retrospect, I realize how foolish it was. But there was never a question in my mind during that week. I was going to die.

And, yes, I considered suicide. I had seen the pain my father faced. Even more importantly, at least to me, I had seen his complete and utter loss of dignity. I fully expected the specialist to put me in the hospital, never to exit. So I thought, very seriously, of avoiding that inevitable conclusion.

Obviously, I didn't. What I didn't know during those seven days, what the specialist explained when I met him, was that 80 percent of all bladder tumors are benign (as was mine) and most of the remaining 20 percent are treatable. Medical knowledge had come a long way in the 25 years since my father's ignominious death.

But that's certainly not the point of my story. The real point is that, even though I personally think suicide is both a copout and a moral quagmire, for much of seven days - I seriously considered it. And I think that's typical of the way suicide can sneak its way into our lives as an option. Humanity is composed of three interlocked building blocks: The mind, the soul, and the heart. What we believe, either intellectually or spiritually, doesn't become a reality until those beliefs are put through the test of emotional fire. I could cite a hundred instances, nay a thousand, from the man who doesn't believe in killing until faced with defending his small child to the atheist who turns to God on her deathbed. Until faced with that test of emotional fire, until we are held captive by overwhelming emotion - the belief system we've built throughout our entire life is little more than a wish and a want. We hope we will do the "right" thing. But we can never know.

While I dislike generalizations, I think it's safe to say that suicide is typically an emotional decision. Looked at intellectually, it makes little sense. Looked at spiritually, it makes less sense. But those in the throes of depression look at it neither intellectually nor spiritually. They are enslaved by emotion, feelings so strong and profound that the mind and spirit seldom have a chance. When we try to counter those feelings purely with intellectual arguments, we are going to lose. When we try to fight depression with strictly spiritual doctrine, we are going to lose. We must make a person feel better - about themselves and about their life - before mind and soul can be brought back into balance with a heart run amok.

"What is wrong with suicide?" isn't a valid question, especially if you're unwilling to accept opinion as a valid answer. (Everything, of course, is an opinion and everything is based on situational evidence. As a devotee of mathematics, I can unequivocally say that two plus two equals four is both an opinion and situational. The only place in the Universe where certitude exists is within our minds.)

Perhaps a more useful question would be to ask "When is suicide not wrong?"

Here is the seven-year-old, convinced her parents no longer love her because they've taken away her shiny red tricycle for seemingly no reason. She feels miserable, worse than she's ever felt in her whole life, and the week her bike will sit in the garage, unused, seems like a vast eternity to her young mind.

Here is the nine-year-old, left bereft by the too-early death of her mother, ignored and ridiculed by a father battling his own grief. She cries every night, wondering how she can possibly face the morrow without the love and understanding of the only person who ever cared about her. The one thing that overshadows her pain is the anger - at God, at the world, at a father who should have been the one to die.

Here is the fourteen-year-old, struggling with his differences, friendless at school, mocked by those few he respects. No one understands his pain. No one is even willing to listen, but instead offers him only platitudes and advice that it will soon get better. It doesn't get better. Life, once simple, once good, becomes a series of disappointments and disallusionments. He is alone and knows that is how he will spend the rest of his life. It's their fault, for not listening, for not caring. They should have to pay, if only with their own guilt.

Here is the sixteen-year-old, watching silently from a distance, as the only boy she ever loved laughs with his new girlfriend. She knows they are laughing at her. Everyone is laughing at her. There is this terrible pain in the pit of her stomach, a knot of tension so real it pervades her every thought, her every breath. If only she were prettier. Smarter. More popular. Then he would still be with her. But she is none of those things, can never be any of those things no matter what she does, and the pain and humiliation get worse every day.

Here is the twenty-year-old, sitting with a near-empty bottle of vodka and the memories of the wife and child he drove away. He knows he has problems. Drinking too much. The jobs that never last more than a few months. The anger he directs towards those he loves. The only thing in his life he ever did that was "right" was to marry her when she became pregnant. And, now, even that is being taken away.

Here is the thirty-year old, walking the dark streets with fear in her eyes and an even darker certainty this night will end as have all the rest. She had dreams once, and followed those dreams as everyone always told her she should. But they never told her the cost of failure. They never told her life could be a series of disappointments and heartaches, one misplaced step placed after the one before it, until there was no where to turn and no way to turn back. They didn't tell her how much it could hurt.

Here is the forty-year-old, his life half spent, trapped on a path he never chose. He didn't realized the years would slip by so quickly, that the daily struggles to just survive would become the sum total of his entire existence. He no longer cares about his meaningless job, if ever he did. His family is just the anchor that held him in place for so long. He's young enough to remember the dreams of his youth, but too old now to begin chasing them. Is this all there is? Is this all there will be - for another forty years?

Here is the fifty-year-old, walking up the steps to his second mortgage, his hand trembling as he reaches for the door. His wife knows something is wrong the moment she sees his face, but she never guesses just how wrong. Downsizing, they call it. Early retirement, some joke. But he knows it for what it really is - a man who no longer has any value. Who is going to hire an old man? Who is going to pay the bills? Who is going to look through his mirror in the morning and convince him there's any reason to get out of bed?

Here is the sixty-year old, sitting in his shiny chrome wheelchair, the smell of new plastic drowned beneath the odor of the colostomy bag hanging at his side. The house looks different after all those weeks in the hospital. Smaller. His wife reorganized the furniture, widening the pathway from their bedroom to the TV, the only path he ever follows any more. It was just one of the many, many adjustments she's made for him. He is no longer a husband, not in any real sense of the word. He's just a burden. And, according to the doctors, this will continue for another ten or twenty years, until the degenerative disease takes his mind as well as his legs.

Here is the eighty-year-old, standing naked in his bathroom and staring at the indelible ink patterns the shower refused to touch. The radiologist will touch them up this afternoon anyway, religning the bulleyes so the deadly radiation can better be aimed. The treatment will last only seconds, unlike the interminable drive to and from the hospital, his daughter making small talk as she weaves through traffic, trying to pretend nothing has changed. Tomorrow they'll make the drive again, this time for chemo, for the clear plastic bag of lethal poison that will slowly drip into his viens. There's a twenty percent chance these trips will grant him another two years of life, instead of the few months he'll have without them. His daughter thinks it's worth it.


The gamut of problems we face in life seemingly spans from birth to death. And, for all I know, perhaps beyond. In spite of the myths, in spite of the illusions we sometimes see from the outside looking in, there is no "and lived happily ever after" for any of us, at least not while we still draw breath. We all face obstacles, those which are temporal and those which truly end only with our passing. Most face their problems, some by remembering better times, some by reaching out to a greater force, all by finding a path that leads to hope. Most of us learn to cope. Most. But not all.

Some, whether right or wrong, find they cannot cope. Overcome by grief, frustration, lonliness, fear, anger, hopelessness - they simply surrender. Sadly, coping is something we must do 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Giving up can take only moments. Are those who abandon all hope morally wrong? Always? No matter the situation? There was a time when I thought I knew the answer to that question. I'm no longer so certain. And I might suggest that until your own convictions are tested in the fires of crippling emotional overload, you probably don't know either.

And you know what? I don't think it matters even one iota.

It does no one any good, either them or especially me, to sit in judgement and try to determine whether someone's actions are "right" or "wrong." That's not my job. And until I'm able to take an afternoon stroll across Adam's Lake, I'm not really qualified either. What I can do, what I must do, is instead judge my actions. What I do in response to others is the only thing that matters, the only thing I can ever label right or wrong.

Allowing others  to make their own decisions - and their own mistakes - is both a wisdom and a copout. The difference lies less in the results than in your own motivation. Do you grant freedom and promote growth? Or do you absolve yourself of responsibility?

None of us would watch a child run into the path of on onrushing vehicle and tell ourselves it was, after all, the child's deciscion. Most of us would stop the blind man from walking over the edge of a cliff, the city-slicker from wandering into a nest of poisonous vipers. Ah, but those are people making mistakes, you whisper. We're not usurping their freedom, and they will surely thank us for our intervention. But what of the sibling abusing drugs, surely just another kind of suicide, or the drunk friend crawling behind the wheel of a car? What of the teenager picking up her first pack of cigarettes, or the aged aunt unable to put down her last pack? Are these individual exercising freedom of choice? Or are they, like the child, mistakenly running into the path of an onrushing vehicle? Do we try to help people? Or do we shrug our shoulders and walk away, allowing them the "freedom" to self-destruct?

I firmly believe that every human being is ultimately responsible for their own actions. Whether you take your life or ruin your life, you and you alone are responsible. Not your parents, not your teachers, not the government, not that mythical creature we call society. And certainly not me. I refuse to feel guilty for what you have chosen to do. That is true whether you are a stranger I've never met, a close friend, or even my own sister. But if I accept that you are responsbile for your actions, then I must also accept I am responsible for mine. I won't feel guilty if you take your life. I will feel guilty if I don't make an effort to help you survive.

When is suicide not wrong? Frankly, I don't know. Nor do I know anyone who does know. But I do know it is always wrong to turn our back on those who would destroy their lives. It's wrong whether you do it through apathy, through hate, or through some misguided notion about freedom of choice. Trying to help someone isn't usurping their choices (ya ain't gonna stop them if they don't wanta be stopped). Trying to help them is offering them more choices.

Moon Dust
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 1999-06-11
Posts 2177
Skelmersdale, UK
37 posted 2000-06-07 06:14 PM


Ok since you've had a lot messages on this I keep it short. Which is what I think suicide is more than whats wrong with it. But its a spur of the moment thing a nealy was for me.
Thing is when your doing it, you don't think right or wrong you just feel hypnotised at the freedom it can command at least thats what I thought.

 We are all poets, its just some people dont know it yet.

JP
Senior Member
since 1999-05-25
Posts 1343
Loomis, CA
38 posted 2000-06-09 01:40 PM


Well said Ron.

A clear, insightful and delightfully compelling discussion.  Have you written a book? I would love to curl up and read you for hours....

Anyway...

"Am I my brother's keeper?"  Indeed I am.
"Am I my brother's jailor?"  Indeed not.

 Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn.
JP


Robin Goodfellow
Junior Member
since 1999-06-29
Posts 26

39 posted 2000-06-12 04:16 AM


[sarcastic rant deleted]



[This message has been edited by rcarnell (edited 06-12-2000).]

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669
Michigan, US
40 posted 2000-06-12 05:01 AM


I don't know what it is about this topic that incites one member to call another "sick," or to respond with sarcasm and disdain - but it's over. Now.
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