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Another Democrat For President?...God Help Us..Especially Kerry
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Another Democrat For President?...God Help Us..Especially Kerry |
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Toerag Member Ascendant
since 1999-07-29
Posts 5622Ala bam a |
Thanks to Franklin Roosevelt, a DEMOCRAT, he introduced the Social Security program..He promised: 1) That participation in the program would be completely voluntary, 2) That the particants would only have to pay 1% of the first $1400 of their annual income into the program. 3) That the money the participants elected to put into the program would be deducted from their income for tax purposes each year, 4) That the money the participants put into the the independent "trust fund" rather than into the General operating fund, and therefore, would only be used to fund the Social Security Retirement Program, and no other Government program, and, 5) That the annuity payments to the retirees would never be taxed as income. Since many of us have paid into FICA for years and are now receiving a Social Security every month..and then finding that we are getting taxed on 85% of the money we paid to the Federal Government to "put away", you may be interested in the following: Q: Which political party took Social Security from the independent "trust" fund and put it into the General fund so that Congress could spend it? A: It was Lyndon Johnson and the Democratically controlled Senate. Q: Which Polical Party eliminated the income tax deduction on FICA withholding? A: The Democratic Party. Q: Which political party started taxing Social Security? A: The Democratic Party, with Al Gore casting the "tie breaking" deciding vote as President of the Senate, while he was Vice President of the U.S. Q: Which political Party decided to start giving annuity payments to immigrants? A: That's right, Jimmy Carter and the Democratic Party. Immigrants moved into this country, and at age 65, began to receive SSI Social Security payment, made by us though and they NEVER PAID A DIME INTO IT!!! Then, after doing all this lying and thieving and violation of the original contract (FICA), the Democrats turn around and tell us the the Republicans want to take away your Social Security. And this is not the saddest part, the sad thing is, there are so many gullible people out there that many are believing it?....You can't cover up everything with Heinz (made in Mexico) pickle juice or other Heinz products made in Brazil and Central America unless the people looking at these things are totally blind.... |
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inot2B Member Elite
since 2000-09-18
Posts 2205Arkansas |
Thank you for the history lesson. I already planned on voting Republican, but this just gives me more fuel when I'm asked why. Do you have any suggestions on how we can change the Social Security program? |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Thank you, Toe. A lot of us older folks are aware of the history; but a lot of new, younger voters are not, and it will affect them as much in the long run. You've done a good service to the PiP community. |
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Michelle_loves_Mike
since 2003-12-20
Posts 1189Pennsylvania |
I've always been of this thought,,,,,, "Believing that the President runs the country, is like believing Ronald runs McDonalds." Michelle I wish all could find the true happiness I have found,,in the eyes of Mike |
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Toerag Member Ascendant
since 1999-07-29
Posts 5622Ala bam a |
That's why we need to pray for as many Republicans in congress as possible...BTW Michelle Loves Mike....your comment on the other post about..."Probably, it's easier that way...don't have to change letterheads etc., was hilarious...sounds like something I'd write...(that may not be a compliment...LOL) |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
I'd be a little more impressed were this original and not copied word for word. But, I'd be a LOT more impressed if any effort had been made to ascertain its accuracy. Myths And Misinformation About Social Security from ssa.gov This month we celebrate the Five-Year Anniversary of these forums. Celebrate? Poor choice of words, I guess, for I certainly see little enough to celebrate. Clearly, people understand others no better today than they did five years ago. Honest communication is no less rare. We are no less divided by artificial boundaries like nationality, religion, race or political party. Hatred and distrust still reign over better alternatives. We've grown older, but no wiser. The irony of an elected government is that people always get exactly what they deserve. Today, I find that especially frightening. |
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Larry C
since 2001-09-10
Posts 10286United States |
I hate it when that happens. Sorry Toe.  If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane, I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Ron, This is still one of the best places on the net. Believe it or not, I've been told by others that we've had some of the best discussions on controversial topics anywhere on the net. Don't forget that in Heinlein's future history, he simply labeled our time 'the crazy years'. Let's just hope that we don't follow the next step  . |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Ron, I'm very interested in knowing what you expected or what you hoped to create or achieve. I ask sincerely. I know at the beginning it was a poetry site...period. I assume that's what you were looking for. I think I remember you saying something about how much you had learned about poetry and writing from the members, including ballads, story-telling, free verse, etc. By inference that would mean (as was the case) others also learned from each other. It was succeessful at doing that. Our communication mainly consisted of what we expressed in our poetry. As the membership grew, however, so did the scope of the site. Non-poetic forums sprang up. Discussions, places to rant, to discuss world events came into being. Was this a continuation of your original plan? Did you feel that people from different countries, from all walks of life would somehow come to agree with each other in matters of religion, politics and international crises? I find that hard to believe. Have you ever seen that happen in any form of life, from kindergarten kids to the Congress? If that was your plan then I agree it failed as it was destined to do. If, however, your plan was simply to build a place, a home, where people could come together to share their poetry and camraderie then you cannot look at Passions as anything but an incredible success. Personally I would like to see it go back to being a poetry site but that's just me. So, before calling it a success or branding it as a failure, remember what you original goals were and whether or not they were achieved. If worst comes to worst, you can always....shrug.  |
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Janet Marie Member Laureate
since 2000-01-22
Posts 18554 |
Ron, it's unfortunate you've had to spend so much of your time wading through all the cyber BS that comes with a forum of this nature and size -- all the legalities and personalities--all the conflicts and meltdowns you've had to deal with...(most of us haven't a clue)...I can understand why you'd be "jaded" and feel as your above statement offers. But you--PIPS--we -- do have many reasons to celebrate. We may have not changed "mankind" or solved the world's problems...but you have built a place where many have found safe haven and connected with others on a level that could have never been touched if not through this medium...there are so many little victories of heart in between the lines on these pages. Beyond the locked threads and bannings...beyond the personal agendas and power struggles to have the last word..there has been countless personal discoveries and many have found a voice through their writing and sharing of poetry that other wise might never had been heard...and then there is the inspiration and growth as writers that many have found....then there is the friendships that grew from the reflection we saw in one another's words. As in all aspects of life...the negative seems to get the most attention...and I know your job requires that you have to wade through it all ... but...while some chose to fight or play games of selfish intent...others became poets and peacemakers...many became friends...some even found the other half of their hearts. And? because of this place--a moth got to see the ocean for the first time. You/PIPS have changed lives and humanity...one poet at a time..Happy Anniversary to you Ron.....and thank you...for more than you will ever know. |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
Ron- I would, first of all, congratulate you on five years. For a website to be valid after 5 months is rare enough. Five years without major corporate sponsorship, or something to sell at half price is almost impossible. Secondly, I don't think that you are being fair to yourself, the site, or to the people who inhabit it. You have over 2,000 members, some active, some not and- for the most part- they get along just fine. Getting 20 people into a room and not having personality conflicts is rare. As for people not understanding each other any more clearly now than they did 5 years ago... I believe that statement is both a littel too hopeful and almost impossible to achieve. You have people from all over the world (USA, Australia, The Netherlands, Canada, The UK, and more) and from all social backgrounds, and all types of governmental beliefs, religious beliefs, social beliefs, and such. It's hard enough to get 200 Republicans, Democrats, Liberals, Conservatives, school teachers, Marines, bus drivers, bums, whatever in the same room to agree an anything. Getting 2000 people, many of whom have very strong, long set belief systems to see eye to eye is impossible. Five years ago, the world wasn't in the state of turmoil that it is now. There was no unpopular war for the US to be loved/reviled/who cares about. There was no strangely contested US election for people to argue over the winner/loser/cry baby/thief about. There was no modern instance of Americans being killed wholesale outside of the Middle East. Spaniards weren't being killed in mass quantities. Dance Clubs in indonesia weren't dangerous for anything except drunken brawls and angry boyfriends. Now... I do believe that, in part, this forum has been able to bring people with vastly divergent views of the world (Misletoe Angel and myself as an example) and has allowed them to share those viewpoints. Sometimes the discussions get heated, and occasionally one side or the other (usually both) has bad info, however those varying viewpoints are respected and DISCUSSED instead of agrued. Examples would be religion, politics, elections, wars, terrorism, movies, music, gay rights... all of which have been topics in the discussion forums. While it is true that the current conflict that is going on in the Middle East and elsewhere has divided the world, and that (even on here) neither side is giving ground, the same thing happened in your war. Americans were reviled world wide for being in South-East Asia... nowhere more than here at home. And neither side was willing to give ANY acceptance to the other side. Not only that, discussions were mostly severely heated, with name calling, violence, and even the memebers of the military- who did not want to be there, and who had no major agenda other than making it home and not failing the man next to them- were attacked and made to feel as if they were evil. NO war is ever popular or without extremes in opinions. On the blue pages, those discussions are made with a sense of respect for the opposition (ok.. not always, but usually), and a willingness to allow the varying viewpoints. There are rules for the debate that are followed (mostly) or the reprecussions are immediate. You have also provided the world with a safe place to share their thoughts and writings. I belong to a few other writing sites, and yet Passions is the ONLY place that I will allow my kids to read, much less post on. None of the other sites have the support that Passions provides. Yes, we are still separated by all of those things. To think that one site would change things that drastically in so little amount of time is expecting too much. Look at the accomplishments, and the progress that HAS been made, and be as proud of yourself as we are of these pages. Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again... |
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RSWells Member Elite
since 2001-06-17
Posts 2533 |
Well you convinced me....I won't be voting for FDR (or Clinton)........ But gee, haven't Democrat presidents bailed us out of every fiscal nightmare Republican administrations have put us in? I suggest you all adjust to Kerry, things are bad for Bushco and can only get worse. Besides as "poets" would we not prefer a leader who speaks the language (even if in monotone?) Neither of these parties have the right to run our government but there isn't time to form a viable 3rd party. I recommend all switch to "independant" voters so none of the millionares in D.C. can count you like sheep. |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
RS- a question... The economy with President Carter was a total fiasco. He was a Democrat... who was it that bailed us out of that??? Another Democrat??? If I remember right, I think it was a Republican. And since when is the US Economy in trouble now? The stock market is up, housing starts are up, housing purchases are up, minority housing and business ownership is up, the Consumer Price Index is up, consumer confidence is up, unemployment is down, interest rates are down (and being risen to SLOW DOWN the economy). Where in this equasion is the proof that the economy is bad? A Democratic president DID preside over the economic recovery of the 1930's, however... let's look at that a second... The "Crash" of 1929 happened only nine months after he took office. It is a well known fact that it takes an average of 2 years for ANY president's economic policies to start taking effect. It is almost an impossibility for a president to take office, get all of his nominees approved by congess, get them up to speed, and passing major changes to the economy to a hostile (opposition) congress in only a few months. In 1931 the President presented to Congress a program asking for creation of the Reconstruction Finance Corporation to aid business, provide additional help for farmers facing mortgage foreclosures, banking reform, a loan to states for feeding the unemployed, and expansion of public works. However, the economic challenges in Europe (over which he had no control) and the Democratic opponents in Congress who sabataged his initiatives for political gain, didn't make things easier. In this case, it wasn't the Democrats that bailed us out of the Republican mess, rather the Democratically controlled Congress that may have caused it. For proof of this, I offer the fact that both Presidents Truman and Eisenhower appointed him to head commissions to re-organize the Executive Branch of the government, and their recommendations helped to spur economic growth. What language is it that Senator Kerry speaks that President Bush doesn't? And why should I prefer it? The only language that I can see him speaking is political expedience. However, rather than go through it all again here, I refer you to the other threads on this site that I have stated my views on that subject. Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again... |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
"This month we celebrate the Five-Year Anniversary of these forums. Celebrate? Poor choice of words, I guess, for I certainly see little enough to celebrate. Clearly, people understand others no better today than they did five years ago. Honest communication is no less rare. We are no less divided by artificial boundaries like nationality, religion, race or political party. Hatred and distrust still reign over better alternatives. We've grown older, but no wiser." Ron, thank you and remember please, that social change is always evolutionary in nature, not revolutionary. 5 years is but a drop sir... in the bucket of time... I celebrate the fact that there are enough people with ideals to continue to endeavor to create and maintain places where we as flawed beings can discuss, learn, and sometimes simply stomp our feet in two year old like behavior.. so.. I celebrate your courage and your convictions sir, and try to find in myself the qualities to emulate them. Ron |
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Michelle_loves_Mike
since 2003-12-20
Posts 1189Pennsylvania |
Kinda funny how the replys got way away from what I gathered was the topic at hand,,,did i miss something? Michelle I wish all could find the true happiness I have found,,in the eyes of Mike |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Two points: First point: Yes, it would have been better had Toe cited his remarks with quotes since they were not his own. Here is some additional reading on the history of SS: http://www.ssa.gov/history/fdrstmts.html#signing Second point: Ron, both 'Deer and Cpat made some good points in their comments. A lot of us have some understanding of what you wished to have transpire with the creation of this website; several hundred/thousands more of us have no clear idea, but are tremendously grateful that we have located a website where, even with a few altercations now and then, generally in discussion, that there still is "this place" where we can "come home", hang up our hat, coat, take off our shoes, and enjoy our family of friends. I know it becomes irksome, let alone tiresome, to forever be the "bouncer". Yet, a lot of ideas are exchanged, a lot of ideals swung to another side; we are forever being given different ways in which to alter our viewpoints, or stand by our own values and mores. And in the rarest of exceptions, we've not waged war on any other member. If we do come to a stand-off, we try to wish our adversary a good future, and go off in another direction. Yes, I know...I always try to see the silver lining. Well, Passions IS my own personal silver lining, in so many ways. Thank you Ron, for putting up with your houseguests.  |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Yes, thank you very much, Ron. No, PIP is not perfect, as pointed out recently in another thread. But I don't know of any community that is. It may not have satisfied all your original expectations but times change and realities evolve. I don't expect you could ever have anticipated the growth and diversity of your membership. That alone foretells of a changing environment. You can be damn proud of your cyber home. I know I speak for the vast majority of us in saying that I have truly enjoyed being here for over four of its five years. I have grown in many ways also. Thanks, Pete |
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Toerag Member Ascendant
since 1999-07-29
Posts 5622Ala bam a |
I've received several emails requesting I delete this post, from friends, many that supported what I posted but asking I delete, and, being I don't really give a rat's butt, I am deleting... [This message has been edited by Toerag (05-26-2004 08:19 PM).] |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
For what my 2 cents may be worth, Toe, I don't think it has a thing to do with WHAT you believe, or the TOPIC you chose. I think, rather, it's more likely about 2 main things... 1: Copying something word-for-word and pasting it in here. I think we all know by now that's technically plaigerism and as such, a no-no. 2: The tone. If you'd have approached this topic without a condescending attitude and a closing statement that basically says "anyone who believes in democrats are idiots", it'd would have probably been fine. We've managed to discuss MANY things in these forums responsibly and with respect to others. From gay marriage to politics to religion - all hot topics that somehow managed to be responsibly explored without demeaning others. This post can't say that. Instead, it's wholly one sided (because republicans always make wise choices and have no black marks on their record book?) and insulting to people as a whole. In my opinion, it doesn't matter whether it's a discussion or poetry, there's no place for those instances of attitude here. |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
Christopher- Although your comments were well spoken, I submit that they were a might off-base. It was not wholly one-sided. RSWells took the Democratic side of life. Granted, he was the only one, however this thread isn't all that long. Also, there were many other topics that were discussed that were not quietly and respectfully debated. There is one on the pages now that fit that bill. There haev also been members who have been banned for their part in discussions that got... "snippy". As for toe's part, he did inadvertantly plagerize (sp?), however I don't feel that he was condescending or that he was making the statement you feel he was. And it's not just because I happen to agree with him on most issues. I also hold Noah in that line, and he and i NEVER agree. Just my thoughts. Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again... |
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Toerag Member Ascendant
since 1999-07-29
Posts 5622Ala bam a |
First of all..thanks Ringo...whether or not you agree with all I wrote on my now deleted post...I do appreciate your reply...and Chris....I don't know what you've read...or where I called anyone that would vote for a democrat an idiot?...I don't understand why any one would vote for Kerry, but never called anyone an idiot..I stated that it was sad how many people have been so easily misled about Social Security and how the Republicans were going to cut this, medicare benefits etc., in fact, in Detroit prior to the Bush/Gore election, house to house door hangers were spread thru out many parts stating this exact thing...and many older folks were in tears...and plagerize..or however in the hell you spell it?....It wasn't meant to be...and, I think you know it wasn't...but I understand more now than I did before I came to the discussion side of this forum..and think Balladeer hit the nail on the head with his post...and,.if it distresses and disappoints Ron that much perhaps poetry is all that should be offered..Afterall, most wars and such are because of religion, politics etc...(Not oil as some liberals professed this time)....I've been here for many years...think Ron's created a wonderful site...I just now learned however to stay away from some of these forums... |
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inot2B Member Elite
since 2000-09-18
Posts 2205Arkansas |
I will not make anymore comments except for the poetry section from now on. If this is just for poetry then Mr. Ron make a rule that nothing will be permitted except poetry & comments about poetry. |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
I am actually a little distressed to hear members saying that they are going to be staying away from the discussion forums. By censoring yourselves, then the opposition (whichever side that might be) has won, and you hve given them too much control and power over your life and your thoughts. And I say that with the full rememberance of what I said to another member this morning on that same subject. With very few exceptions, I actually enjoyi seeing what various people have to say about the world in general. It gives me, as a writer, a bigger view of the world than I could ever get by mere research alone, or by discussing with the people in my neck. It also gives me ideas about characters, and such. Plus, I am just crazy enough to be interested in how people think in general. I hope that the two of you will reconsider and not deprive the world of your thoughts, however, I understand if you don't. Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again... |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
blame the "woes of the world" on a specific party, call those who might believe in certain things gullible, add words like theiving and lying, and i hardly think it qualifies as a non-inflammatory post (i was pointing at the initial topic, Ringo, not the thread as a whole)... and i think it's fair to infer that you're suggesting anyone who'd support any of the above an idiot? i believe that you didn't realize it was plaigerism, Toe, but seeing that it is, well that's how it goes? don't get me wrong on any of this - note i haven't stated my views. for what it's worth, i look at the upcoming election not as a choice of the best canidates, but rather a choice of lesser evils. Kerry, Bush, we could sit here all day typing in negative things about both personally and even more about their respective parties... and find that at the end of the day, we're all just stumbling along, hoping that we make the right choice for us and our country. to me, as a person, it's irritating to have someone bash on another's best effort, when their's are just the same; best efforts that don't always pan out gold. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Now Christopher, I don't see how you can say "best effort" in a discussion of politicians. The only "best efforts" put out by politicians is to keep their own party in power. I can't say how sick I am of both major parties without doing it in MC, BCD even. Let's bring back the Bullmoose Party  |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
This conversation is making me flip my Whig!!  |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
actually, pete, i wasn't talking about the politicians... rather, those voting (or not) for them  |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Yanno what? I'm so sick of all of this, I think I may actually vote. how's THAT for frightening? |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
The fact that you choose to vote is the best thing I've heard all day. Albeit it's early...  |
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Toerag Member Ascendant
since 1999-07-29
Posts 5622Ala bam a |
I wrote what I wrote, as was sent to me....I've viewed the website Ron posted.....(in such a kind way for all to see)....and it does prove some of what I wrote was untrue...but not all...but look at Carter's record, Johnson's record, Clinton immorality, lying and stealing...and I guess I just took it for the truth...it did stand to reason....Ron has a wonderful site here, but seems to think he's going to change the world when he added these additional sites...sorry bud, nobody can do that....but you have a fine site regardless...I admire you for what you've offered us, though I don't believe you in some respects, as in, You would hold anyone with spite if they saved you from torture and unbelievable atrocities if you were a POW....that's just not true...I don't think you're superman....and even if you were...if they held kryptonite against your perfect body, you would beg for help or mercy...My comrades and I have had S. Vietnamese, fellow Americans kiss our feet before we could stop them for their freedom...and you would too...regardless of what you say from the leisure of your home....it just ain't so with any human being I've ever come in contact with...I'm not calling you a liar my fellow vet....just a dreamer....Peace..vote from your heart....and remember one thing...Iraq was not for oil..(regardless of the liberal media)..though should be used to pay the expense, (but you can't put a price on American Human lives)...and if Johnson was President, we'd lose this war too....because, as he stated: in regards to the Hanoi Trail, (as we called it)..."We will not kill women and children to accomplish our goals,(THOSE BRAVE CONG'S HUMAN SHIELDS), even at the cost of American lives".....But I know many a soldiers, with tears in their eyes that shot kids running up to them with grenades for candy, because our spiritually motivated enemy taught them the GI's would reward them....sad, but it's the truth of war.....but for a reality check...anyone that disagrees with my thoughts...don't do what I did....look it up..investigate...check what the Democrats did as far as taxes, give away programs, and SSN or their ideas for such....then decide..and if you've worked your arse off, paid for college, worked seven days a week, you shouldn't be entitled to the Social Security you paid in, just be penalized with more taxes.....My last post here on these pages....Hope I didn't offend anyone...but if I did, remember, I'm Toerag...I don't care about a whole lot of anything these days.... Oh...one more thing Ron...there's nothing wrong with being a dreamer...if it wasn't for dreamers, we would be riding horses to work, reading under candle lite....and wouldn't have antibiotics...nor your site... [This message has been edited by Toerag (05-27-2004 03:58 PM).] |
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Larry C
since 2001-09-10
Posts 10286United States |
I'm with Balladeer I'm Whigged out! If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane, I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again. |
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*Alli4000*
since 2004-03-21
Posts 3188The World of Poetry |
I know I'm only 13 and can't really vote or anything but I do know what's going on in the world. Look at what Bush is doing to the economy and the whole war in Iraq. One of my mom's good friends died over there. I think Kerry should be the next president and so does my family. Bush has been one of the worst presidents and so was his father. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
The economy is better than it has been in years, even for the "financially challenged" people like me. Taxes are down, unemployment is down, consumer confidence and spending are up, new housing construction is up, and first time home ownership is up, particularly among the lower income folks. There are more good things happening in Iraq than bad, not to downplay the tragic loss of life and injuries of those in the armed services, whom we can never repay for their sacrifices on our behalf. I think Balladeer posted that earlier, not sure which thread. And it's true. Straight from the mouths of those who are over there and know all that is going on, even though it isn't being widely reported here in our infamous 'conservative press'. Despite Bush's shortcomings, I have more confidence in him than in Kerry to do what I believe needs to be done for the security of our country, which I think is the most important issue in this election year. Even if the economy weren't on the mend, I think homeland security should be our top priority at this time. |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
I'll add my two cents worth. I've grown both older and wiser since joining the Pips family, while the world's politicians seem to have gotten stupider by the minute. Perhaps they should put down the war games manuals and read poetry? Yet even here, we often find ourselves in battle. But hopefully we will all still be at the round table tomorrow, sharing our thoughts about how to achieve unity and peace on this, the only liveable planet in this universe. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Maybe we can wait until the Islamists put down their weapons before we put down ours? It would really be nice if they came to their senses and adopted a civilized attitude of 'live and let live' and let us and the rest of the world alone. I don't see it happening, though, unfortunately. |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
So, the Israelis can wait till all the Arab peoples put their weapons down, and vice versa? And with gangs, the Crips can wait till the Bloods are quiet? and terrorists worldwide can wait till the roots of terror no longer exist? Does this mean we humans are doomed forever to tit-for-tat world responses, always using aggression to stop aggression? Toe, I'm wondering if you have completely forgotten Tricky Dicky when you question the honesty and moral standings of Democrats? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
As someone once said, Kacey, if the Palestinians put down their weapons there will be peace. If the Jews put down their weapons there will be no Israel. If you don't believe that then please point out the suicide schools in Isreal where children are being taougth to blow themselves up for their God and country. Your comparison of Crypts and Bloods is out there. Also, pointing fingers at others does not absove responsibilities....Clinton tried that with Thomas Jefferson |
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Titia Geertman Member Ascendant
since 2001-05-07
Posts 5182Netherlands |
Politics and religion are supposed to bring safety, peace and comfort to all people 'round the world, but unfortunately they've only managed to bring insecurity, war and discomfort sofar. I wonder why. Only thing I can come up with is: It all comes down to Power and the 'I am right and you are wrong' thought, isn't it? I have a proposition To all blue pages Pippers If you want to argue Put on your easy slippers Settle down in a cosy chair Feet up high, a drink in reach Try to hear the words being said Try to value the value in each I know, I'm sketching Utopia 'Cause some won't play along But don't say 'it is' or 'must' It's to Power them words belong And if you think 'that silly Dutchie' Doesn't know what she's talking about You're probably right but say if softly Don't yell it out to me too loud If you want to disagree Disagree in rhyme 'Cause poetry is first issue here Has been all the time I'm off, before you throw my two dimes back at me  Titia Like scattered leaves...my words will flow |
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Toerag Member Ascendant
since 1999-07-29
Posts 5622Ala bam a |
Titia...could ya throw in another thirty cents?..I need to call Balladeer to borrow another $200 bucks? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I wouldn’t characterize it as tit for tat, Kacey. It takes both parties in a conflict to agree to put down their weapons. It will do us no good to cease our activities when the opposing side has no such intention, no matter what we do. It would be suicide. We have to defeat them, period. The Islamists have been attacking US interests off and on for over 30 years (if you don't count the problems that Thomas Jefferson had with their pillaging vessels and slaughtering ships' crews on the high seas during his presidency) long before we went to war, and they've been attacking Israel since its inception. Balladeer is right. Additionally, the PLO's charter calls for the destruction of Israel; still to this day their objective is "to drive them into the sea." It's never been changed or amended since the PLO was formed. Funny, though, the 'deified' UN and some others don't seem to have a problem with that, but do seem to have a problem with Israel having nuclear weapons for its defense, the only free and democratic society in the Middle East, surrounded by avowed enemies. Arafat has had many opportunities for peace. He's proven that he would rather continue blowing people up. He is the real enemy of the Palestinian people. He keeps them in poverty and feeds them a steady diet of victimization and the glory of dying in suicide attacks, instead of making something worthwhile of that society by implementing peace and utilizing his vast wealth for their betterment instead of for the terrorizing of Israel. The ball is in his court and it always has been. I've read comments here and elsewhere stating that Israel is the aggressor and oppressor. That's just not the case. One or more of the countries that surround it initiated every war that they’ve been engaged in. They have always been the one attacked, not the other way around. And now they have been put on the defensive again due to the intifada on its citizens, just as we have been, and have acted accordingly. But when they, and we, act in ways to attempt to ensure the safety and future of our respective societies from barbaric attacks, they, and we, are disparaged as the aggressors by the real aggressors and those who support them. And if anyone wants to try to convince me that I'm wrong about Arafat and the PLO, be my guest, by all means, but you'll first have to show me that they've changed their mission statement. That's the only thing that will convince me that they are interested in peace. Absent that, any arguments are meaningless. Peace should always be our aim, of course, and I'm all for it, but peace at any price is not peace. Peace with freedom is the only kind worth having. Freedom isn't free, we sometimes have to fight to maintain it. As Patrick Henry said, "Give me liberty or give me death." And as Benjamin Franklin said, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." That being said, I wish you all peace. The real deal though, not the counterfeit. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: quote: quote: And what is our mission statement regarding Al Qaeda, Denise? Seems to me it is strikingly similar. I am certainly not going to argue in defense of the PLO. But if I was, I would probably try to support it with actual historical data and relevant facts. Your post, Denise, offers nothing but assumptions. Why should Arafat accept peace at any price when you proudly declare you are not? Why should the PLO be willing to live with their Jewish neighbors when we are certainly unwilling to consider establishing diplomatic relations with Al Qaeda? Doesn't anyone have more than sound-bites cribbed from their favorite commenter? It's bad enough that no one seems to be questioning their assumptions, but most don't seem to even recognize when they have nothing but assumptions to present as evidence. Right or wrong can't even be argued until people actually are willing to think again. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Ron, The PLO Charter speaks for itself, I'm not making assumptions or quoting my favorite pundit, it's something that I have been following closely for years, and if you or anyone else cares to check out some historical facts, I'd recommend an excellent book called From Time Immemorial by a renowned investigative reporter, Joan Peters. It's jammed full with historical facts. It's a hefty volume, but well worth studying. It's definitely not light reading. I don't think that asking Arafat to allow Israel to exist and to agree to peacefully co-exist with her should be considered too high a price for him to pay for peace. How does one have diplomatic relations with the likes of Al Qaeda? Have they ever even hinted at the fact that they would like to have an open dialogue to discuss their grievances against us or the rest of the world? I don't recall it if they have. All I remember are hostage-takings, bombings and suicide attacks and airplanes flying into buildings killing innocent civilians. There can be no comparisons drawn between us and Al Qaeda. None whatsoever. |
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bbent Senior Member
since 2001-01-07
Posts 521Alaska |
sure been alot of topics covered in this thread.personaly even though this is primaraly a poetry site i'm glad to hear the opinions of otheres.i think people need and want to voice there thoughts on todays society and am willing to tolorate listening to others in order to voice mine.thought that's what america was about.i also think that privaledge here at pips has help people to accept and in some cases even understand todays wack world.ain't no different than it was thousands of years ago.human natures never been altered through political or religious wars.the masses are still a bunch of sheep generally willing to follow the highest bidder.what's in in for me?...personally bubba's big adventure reminds me of another yellow haired george who set out to disipline and educate americas hethen ignorant native population..heck,maybe a christian middle east,dependent on western welfare ain't such a bad idea.while were at it we can forbid them there evil hashish and opiat smoking vices ,introduce them to the joys of alcoholism and build big casinos to enjoy all that so called oil money in.Mc'Ds and coke for all.it ain't the politicians people,it's us to blame and seems to me a change in myself might be the only difference i or anybody can make. Live like it's your last day... Dance like nobody's watching... Love like you've never been hurt... [This message has been edited by bbent (06-01-2004 05:31 AM).] |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
The comparison wasn't between us and Al Qaeda, Denise, but between Israel and Al Qaeda. You think Arafat should allow Israel to exist in peace? Maybe we should then allow Al Qaeda to exist in peace. Of course, there's a whole lot wrong with my analogy, not the least of which is the British government hasn't given Al Qaeda our whole West Coast. And, yea, there are quite a few other differences, too. Really important ones. It's a bad analogy, used only to counter an equally bad generality. Again, I am definitely not defending the PLO, but rather arguing against your gross generalities and unstated assumptions. You're willing to condemn Arafat with absolutely no support for your stance, simply because it's what you've heard said over and over again. What do you think you would have heard had you lived your entire life in Jordan? You make it sound as if the PLO fights only because they are evil and enjoy violence, which is just plain naïve. They have reasons, too, and while you don't have to accept their reasons, trying to just ignore them serves no useful purpose. Ignorance isn't bliss, it's just the father of more ignorance. Why should Israel be given the west coast of what was once Palestine? How would you feel if you were forced to move out of Pennsylvania because that part of our country was given to someone else? What arguments can be offered to convince you that you should live in peace with those who took your home away from you? You are ignoring some pretty fundamental questions, Denise, when you hit us with a, "Oh, he's just wrong and should accept things and move on." Your conclusions may well be right, Denise. That's not my point. You've just given us no evidence in your posts that they're your conclusions. As stated, and especially as a response to Kacey's points, it just sounds like propaganda. |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
"i think people need and want to voice there thoughts on todays society and am willing to tolorate listening to others in order to voice mine.thought that's what america was about" Exactly, bbent. And that is what we are doing in this thread, hopefully with total honesty. To respond to some other comments; After living in Israel for a year, I do understand the delicate balancing act the Israeli government must do daily. I also remember many Israeli and Arab friends I worked alongside daily who did not support the political and social agendas that perpetuate the ME conflicts. That's not to say everyone agrees or is willing to stop the killing. I never saw so much bickering anywhere as I saw in the ME, except maybe here in this country. As for worldwide TERRORISM, it is far more deeply rooted than who owns/controls the oil barrels, who controls one city in the 'holy' lands. To blame all of ISLAM is to ignore CHRISTIANITY's historical misdeeds, and to ignore the war-mongering attitudes of some of Israel's political leaders. I cannot believe some can be so blind to the truths as to still believe the good ole USA is saving the world so that everyone can have their fair share of Earth's bounty. I know I'm rambling a bit here, but spent half the night repairing stalls that testosterone-filled stallions kicked in. But it's part of being human, I guess, to be imperfect in my understanding and replies, to not have all the answers. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Ron, Believe it or not, I'm not parroting something I've heard over and over again. I'm very familiar with both sides of the issue. I'm not ignoring any fundamental questions. I have put myself in the shoes of both parties. I am presenting my convictions on the issue after having considered all the available information. Again, I'd highly recommend From Time Immemorial by Joan Peters for anyone interested in the historical and political facts. It is the most in-depth, thorough, treatment that I've read on the issue to date. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: You're certainly not addressing them in here, Denise. Not when you present simplistic "us good, them bad" characterizations that only serve to dehumanize and not explain. It may be comforting to think Arafat "would rather continue blowing people up," but it's not realistic. Believe it or not, your enemies are usually motivated by the same things as you are. That, after all, is precisely the root of most conflict. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Why should the PLO be willing to live with their Jewish neighbors when we are certainly unwilling to consider establishing diplomatic relations with Al Qaeda? Ron, I would be interested in knowing your thoughts of how we would go about establishing diplomatic relations with Al Qaeda....and why we should be willing to. Do you consider it feasible to extend diplomatic relations to such a group...and why? |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
No, Mike, I don't consider it feasible. Or warranted. The question, though, would perhaps be better asked of Denise. The way we view Al Qaeda isn't all that different, after all, from the way the PLO views Israel. If it's not feasible for us, why should it be feasible for them? |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
http://www.jfjfp.org/campaigns.htm please read this article from Jews for Justice for Palestinians and Jews For Peace: http://ga3.org/jvfp/home.html Please don't limit your knowledge to the major media presentations or politician's spittal. Find out what the PEOPLE are up to in these countries. I hope the above links will help you see beyond the walls. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I think a more accurate analogy would be that Israel views the PLO the way that we view Al Qaeda. Arafat's actions speak for themselves, as well as does his PLO Charter. That is explanation enough for what I have said of him. The day he changes his mission statement will be the day that I elevate my opinion of him, and consider my current position to have become unrealistic. People with the modus operandi of intentionally blowing up or otherwise killing innocent civilians to further their political or religious aims are not motivated by the sames things as I am. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
I really really wish, that people would stop voting for a man simply b/c they are democrate or republican. There seems to be so many people fixated more on the party then voting for the man in nomination...and while I'm wishing, if I could have one more wish, I'd wish that they'd give us more candidates to pick from, why couldn't a blue collared worker run for the presidency? Perhaps he'd be more honest and do a better job? Not to be bought by large corporations...or business, but truely lead the country for the people, by the people. Yes, yes, yes, I know, I'm naieve. |
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Sudhir Iyer Member Ascendant
since 2000-04-26
Posts 6943Mumbai, India : now in Belgium |
quote: Absolutely right... in my opinion... I would add... "and be really sincere..." Regards Sudhir |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Do you have a reason for that, Denise? Or would you simply like to avoid any shades of gray? Still, if you want to go that route, a better analogy might be that Israel views the PLO the way the Colonists viewed the American Indians? quote: Were you to understand the opposing viewpoints, Denise, you would realize how meaningless such a statement is to anyone except yourself and others who already think as you do. The citizens of a democratic republic are responsible for everything that happens in their republic. They vote for the leaders, fund the military, and comprise the vast bulk of the troops who fight. The enlisted mechanic who works on a tank may never fire a shot, but he is far from innocent. How can the family of five who knowingly and willingly paid for the tank be any less guilty? When you send your sons to kill someone, the potential consequences won't always be confined to just the sons. There are no innocent civilians in this war, only soldiers doing vastly different jobs. We may not like it when someone else insists on defining their own rules of war, and we certainly don't have to agree with them, but painting our enemies in shades of black and white only insures we will never have a shortage of enemies. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
When someone's own rules of war involves training children to strap bombs to themselves, in order to kill themselves along with other women and children, I will certainly paint them in black, Ron, nor will I grant their tactics any respect by labeling them "rules of war". Let some of their leaders who are training the children to be suicide bombers assume that position themselves so that they may enjoy those fourteen virgins or whatever they preach is waiting for the poor fools they con....that's what I'd like to see - and never will. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
So the justification in your mind, Ron, is that there really are no innocent civilians, so it really isn't that outrageous when they are blown up, that they somehow deserve it because they are a part of a republic and it is just someone else's "rules of war" that should be understood and seen for what it really is, just varying shades of gray? I hope to God I have misunderstood you. Bal, it's 72 virgins. Geesh, why slaughter yourself and others for just 14, especially when they won't remain virgins for very long?! That would hardly seem worth it. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Mike, the same exact argument holds true in this or any other country. Seen any senators knee-deep in sand and dodging bullets lately? And, no, Bush falling off his bike doesn't count. Those who wage wars are rarely the ones who fight them. Of course, some would argue the only difference between an eight-year-old and an eighteen-year-old is ten years. Neither have the judgment to drink, it would seem, but both can be convinced to die for something someone else believes. Is it really a difference in kind. Or just in degree? Denise, the justification is not in my mind, which you would have already known if you made the effort to look at both sides instead of only your own. It's standard terrorist rhetoric, and while it certainly has flaws, it also has merit. Or do you really think you should be allowed to feel all safe and comfy while advocating and voting for war? Last time I checked, guys, only one man had ever walked on water and none have sported horns and cloven hooves. Israel, PLO, Democrat, Republican, Christian, Muslim, straight, gay, Bush, Kerry -- ain't none of them gods or devils. Their mistakes when they make them are mistakes, not evil intentions, and nothing will ever be accomplished by either worshipping or reviling someone we should instead be trying to understand. When you go down to the local Marathon station and pay $2.17 for a gallon of gas, you are simply exchanging one thing for another. And that's all politics is, too. The exchange of one thing for another. You want lower taxes? The cost will be the loss of services or higher interest rates to pay for a bigger deficit. Politicians simply decide what we will give up in order to pay for what we will get, even if the most important decisions are rarely about products and money. You want freedom? Privacy? Peace? Those all carry costs, too. You don't have to agree that a gallon of gas is worth $2.17, but no one can make an intelligent decision by looking at JUST the gas or JUST the money. No one can make an intelligent decision by "assuming" an issue is self-evidently wrong and the perpetrator is obviously just plain evil. If you don't look for and address the costs of an issue, you aren't really addressing the issue. If you don't try to understand both sides of an issue, then you really don't understand the issue at all. It's easier, of course, to just not think. It's easier to simply paint the enemy as an inhuman bastard, with no motives or reasons beyond that of a demon. Funny thing is, it doesn't seem to matter whether the enemy is a Democrat or a terrorist. Black only comes in one shade. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Ron, when the courts agree that there is no difference between eight year old and eighteen year olds except for ten years I grant you that point. Frankly I find that statement mind-boggling to suggest that an eight year old can have the same mental capabilities of decision-making and reasoning... ...and as soon as our leaders or generals order just one soldier to deliberately kill himself in order to kill civilians then I grant you the other point. Your point is well-made relating to sending soldiers into battle but has little to do with suicide missions where survival was absolute zero. It appears to me that you are saying whatever can be painted with a black brush is equally evil, almost as if to say no one has the right to claim the difference between good and evil because one man's good can be another man's evil and who is one to claim the other as evil just because it is different than the accuser's definition as good? That defense has allowed a lot of criminals to walk out of courtrooms and back onto the streets. In such case you would then have to claim that 9/11 would not be a condemnable action since it was just another's way of fighting their own particular brand of war and who are we to criticize just because they were actions we would not use? Personally I'm going to continue to believe that humans are born and grow with an inner knowledge of right and wrong, of good and evil and decency. Criminals and dictators will go against them by choice but they will know that they are doing so and simply not care. Fine for them but I will not be one to view such actions and not condemn such actions by granting them "understanding". The Emporer's New Clothes would never fly today because certain people (especially lawyers) would scream "Who are you, little kid, to claim he's naked?" Well, sometimes, people ARE naked and sometimes people ARE evil and their actions ARE condemnable by all laws of decency in this little existence of ours and to say 'who are you to judge?' is a weak argument. Now, as far as there being no difference between Democrats and terrorists....you may finally have hit on something we can agree on!! |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Ron, I have looked at both sides of the issue. I have attempted to delve into the minds of those who hate us. I do grant that they may have some justified grievances. Where I part ways with them is with the way in which they choose to handle those grievances. And I do wish you'd stop assuming that I am not thinking and not making an effort to see both sides of the issue, because it's just not true. The fact that someone may arrive at a different conclusion than another does not mean that one of them is not thinking or not making an effort to understand an issue. My thoughts on good and evil are like Balladeer's. I believe that there are genuinely evil people in the world. I don't think that eveyone who disagrees with me is evil, but I do believe that they exist. And, unfortunately, I don't think all the world's problems can be solved if we just attempt to 'understand' those who oppose us. Understanding has to be a two-way street for it to be successful. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
It seems to me what Ron was trying to say with the whole 8/18 year-old thing was that the situations aren't dissimilar in nature. There's no way I'm going to compare the severity of the situations- in one, young children are brainwashed that a 'glorious' suicide death will land them in heaven. In another, older adolescents and young adults are tempted with money for college which is otherwise almost impossible to pay for- believe me, because I don't qualify for federal aid, nor do many of my friends, and we're knee-deep in loan applications and debt- and also with a good, patriotic way out of a dead-end life if they've got nothing else going on. Now, the biggest difference is that I believe the U.S. military does do some constructive things, although I disagree with a lot of the fundamental foundations of it. Blowing yourself up... well, there's really no furture or productivity to that... it does nothing but destroy. However, when you sign that paper to join the Army, or Marines, or whatever other branch- you have to be willing to enter the destructive realm... you have to be willing to trade life for death- and that's where I think the similarity lies. Denise- even if you think that truly evil people can't be changed, how can we defeat them without understanding them first? That's like hunitng without knowing the animal's habits. |
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Toerag Member Ascendant
since 1999-07-29
Posts 5622Ala bam a |
I still believe that if we were to soak our ammunition in pork blood, all around the world...that terrorism would decrease by at least 75%...it's a fact...even if we didn't do it and said we did...it would work...with Palestine, Iraq, and most all terrorism...it worked before, it would work now...and if we stated that all body parts of suicide bombers were going to be buried with pork parts...it would decrease that cowardly act too....This isn't a Kosher site is it?... [This message has been edited by Toerag (06-03-2004 03:21 PM).] |
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Sudhir Iyer Member Ascendant
since 2000-04-26
Posts 6943Mumbai, India : now in Belgium |
"I still believe that if we were to soak or ammunition in pork blood, all around the world...that terrorism would decrease by at least 75%...it's a fact..." extremely arguable... but I am not arguing... ... |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Hush, what I meant was an understanding that leads to peace. That has to be a two-way street. Both sides have to be willing to live in peace and to cease hostilities. There has to be a genuine meeting of the minds to live in peace with each other despite any differences. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
It seems to me what Ron was trying to say with the whole 8/18 year-old thing was that the situations aren't dissimilar in nature Hush, they are extremely dissimilar. Being willing or prepared to trade life for death has nothing to do with being told to deliberately kill yourself - otherwise recruiting policemen, firemen or anyone whose duties involved the possibility of serious injury or death would be on the same keel as suicide bombers, according to your statement. Add the fact that they are children into the mix and it's worse. Please don't think there is a similarity.... [This message has been edited by Balladeer (06-03-2004 05:27 PM).] |
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Skyfyre Senior Member
since 1999-08-15
Posts 1906Sitting in Michael's Lap |
quote: No matter what you may believe, in modern politics you are never voting for a candidate; you are voting for his party. I'm not saying that a President has no power, but honestly he has very little power when he is a candidate and just about anything he says or does is with the permission or at the direction of his party. This also applies to re-election campaigns, though less so, so in essence the candidate is ALWAYS a candidate unless he is not running again. quote: One word here. Funding. You need money to make yourself known, and unless you're Ross Perot or some equivalent, you'll need the backing of a lot of dollars if you want any chance of getting the word out that you even exist. |
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Toerag Member Ascendant
since 1999-07-29
Posts 5622Ala bam a |
Sudhir...LOL...you're just not an argumentative kinda guy are ya?...That's good!!! |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Denise, my assumptions have to be made on what you've said or failed to say. Show me anything in this thread or any recent thread that indicates any recognition of Arab motive beyond "they're all evil." You keep telling us everyone is wrong, but you've made no effort to tell us WHY you think they're wrong. Back in high school debate, we were given issues to research but weren't told which side we would argue until we arrived at the meet. It was pretty much the luck of the draw whether your team would be pro or con. Could you do that with these issues? You say you've looked at both sides, so it should be easy. You don't have to believe it, but you should be able to convincingly argue why some have "justified grievances." Care to give it a shot? quote: Statistically, Amy, I suspect you'd find that relatively few people join the military only to help pay for college (especially since the G.I. Bill has been essentially emasculated). While I'm sure there are tons of individual reasons, I think the underlying foundation is often one of respect. Can you name any other decision a kid straight out of high school can make and be guaranteed almost instant respect and support? quote: The similarity is probably closer than most suspect, Amy. Boot camp is every bit as much about mental conditioning as it is physical conditioning. Watch a Marine raw out of boot, and you can almost see the bullets bounce off his chest as he walks down the street. He is invincible. quote: You can't easily compare soldiers to policemen or firemen, Mike, because the latter rarely face dangers directly controlled by themselves and they typically only risk their lives for the life of another. Soldiers, on the other hand, face danger because their superiors put them in danger, usually to "gain ground," and almost never to directly save a life. A fireman's risk is strategic, while a soldier's is usually tactical. The soldiers who stormed the beaches of Normandy were noble and brave, but none of them were rushing into a burning room to save a trapped three-year-old. Their sacrifice, which was statistical suicide during the earlier waves, was a tactic necessary to accomplish a greater strategy. The fireman can see his goal, while the soldier can only believe in his. In the same sense, I strongly suspect, that suicide bombers believe in theirs. Being told to deliberately kill yourself is, indeed, harsh. Being sent to your death without being told it is suicide is no less harsh, and any Marine in hard combat for more than a few months has surely seen it happen. Pawns must be sacrificed to control the center squares, and officers are trained to make those sacrifices. At the end of the day, dead is dead, and the only thing that matters is who sits where on the board. All of war is predicated on the notion that some ideals carry a higher value than does human life. That is as true for our enemies as it is for us. quote: No, Mike, I'm pretty much trying to say exactly the opposite. Toerags's condemnation of Democrats in this thread, as well as yours and other's in other threads, is very little different than Denise's condemnation of terrorists. And, that just can't be right. Toe maintains he's willing to "do anything" to save an American life, but presumably that won't include any Democrats. 'Cause they're evil. Just as evil as terrorists. That's the inevitable result of black and white thinking. Black only comes in one shade. The only way to avoid painting Democrats with the same broad brush as terrorists, is to look beyond the obvious. Does anyone truly believe their U.S. Senator is in league with the devil? Give me a break! Every American leader in every age always believes they are going to do the greater good at the least cost. You may not agree with their reasoning, but to question their motives leads only to gross contradictions. An evil Bill Clinton could not become President unless this country is either evil or stupid. People make mistakes. Mistakes don't mean a person is evil. Looking beyond the obvious requires actual thinking, but the result of examining motivation is inevitably a shade of gray. Democrats aren't black, Republicans aren't white, each is just a human being doing the best they know how. It is absolutely fine to disagree with what they think will be best. Even vehemently. The result of such disagreement will simply bring a darker shade of gray. Democrats are now gray and terrorists are black, and doesn't that make much more sense in a world of meaning and reason? Not really. Because once you are on the path of actually thinking, you should soon find yourself examining the motivations of the terrorists, too. And, yea, you're going to run into some more grays. Darker grays, perhaps, but still grays and not blacks. No matter how much you disagree with someone, it is always possible to imagine something darker. Pure black is as impossible to find in this world as is pure white. quote: I actually agree, Mike. Trouble is, everything I read in these forums seems to suggest they are also born with the innate ability to justify and rationalize anything as right if they try hard enough. How can hurting "innocent civilians" be inherently wrong when dropping nuclear bombs on Japanese cities was "necessary" to save American lives? Why does our sense of decency seem to twist and turn according to circumstance and need? I wish the only men in this world I had to face were the evil ones. Because the righteous ones scare the hell out of me. |
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Toerag Member Ascendant
since 1999-07-29
Posts 5622Ala bam a |
I beg your pardon Ron....I DID do anything to save anyone....including POW's, AND, not just ours...but the Cong....I confiscated knives and implements of torture from my own soldiers....(I may have waited a few minutes to do this if they were doing something to Clinton, or Teddy Kennedy, but that's beside the point...LOL)...Democrats aren't evil...they just tax the hard workig rich and offer no motivation to welfare recipients...and their records throughout history stink)...How dare you say I did what I did for Republicans only...?...I know that Thai stick was really good Ron, but surely you've come down from that by now? [This message has been edited by Toerag (06-04-2004 09:40 AM).] |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Well, Ron, I must say I have no idea what you are referring to concerning my linking Democrats and terrorists. To me that would be ridiculous. I can think of nothing I sai in this or any other thread that would indicate that, with the exception of my obvious (I would think) attempt a humor in my previous post. I would be very interested in knowing which statements you are referring to. As far as Normandy was concerned, there were certainly going to be deaths but it was NOT a suicide mission. I'll grant that I sure would not have liked to have been in one of those landing crafts waiting to jump in the water but soldiers DID survive, more than those who died, and as a result history was changed. How can you paint it as a suicide mission? It was a mission with a low chance of survival, I'll grant you, but there WAS that chance and many did. How many suicide bombers survive when they yank the detonator? Also, the soldiers were indeed fighting for a much nobler cause than blowing up a couple of families sitting at an outdoor cafe. I think even the French would agree to that At a time that world leaders are getting together to celebrate the events of an action that directly led to the defeat of Hitler and restored peace to Europe, I find it odd that you would compare soldiers and children suicide bombers or say something like:All of war is predicated on the notion that some ideals carry a higher value than does human life. That is as true for our enemies as it is for us. ..as if to say the terrorist regimes have ideals that are equally important as those who fight for freedom. How can hurting "innocent civilians" be inherently wrong when dropping nuclear bombs on Japanese cities was "necessary" to save American lives? Why does our sense of decency seem to twist and turn according to circumstance and need? Actually I'm surprised that it has taken so long for someone to bring up bombing Japan but I'm equally surprised it would be you. That's a very interesting slant, that it was a twist and turn of decency that caused that action. Well, who can say? All I know is that, at the time, thousands of Americans and allies were dying every week. With the advent of the Kamikaze pilot, Truman knew that Japan would never surrender militarily. He foresaw the war as continuing for an indefinite period of time, with tens to hundreds of thousands of soldiers and civilians dying as it continued. That was his reasoning he outlined for his actions. Was his evaluation wrong? No. Was his action acceptable? Who is to judge? He killed innocent civilians (although I believe you said there are no innocents) to save others. Only God and history can judge that one...and I believe history has ruled fairly. It's not that I disagree so much with many things you say but it's the comparisons that I find difficult to accept, as if there is equality between soldiers and terrorists, people who fight for freedom as opposed to those to fight to destroy, training men to fight as opposed to talking kids into blowing themselves up. I get the feeling that you believe there is justification to be looked for on both sides and neither should be criticized for whatever means they choose to employ, that noble causes on the side of freedom are no better than the noble causes on the side of terrorists. If that is the case, we will simply have to agree to disagree because I will NEVER give them that sanction... |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I'm sure I could argue the position of either side, if I were so inclined, Ron. But to me, the legitimacy of the position of either side is not the issue. The issue to me is the way in which one side has chosen to handle its grievances through acts of terrorism. I have a big problem with the PLO's mission statement in their Charter. How can anyone seriously believe that they want to live peacefully with their neighbor when it calls for their neighbor's annihilation, and when their actions attest to that intent? Peace can never happen until they change their intent toward Israel. To me, that's the fundamental issue that needs to be addressed before any other issue can be successfully ironed out. As long as the terrorists continue to attack Israel's citizens, Israel will act in defense of its citizens, and is justified in doing so. |
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