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Do we need to go to church?
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Do we need to go to church? |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665
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When i go down to visit my friends house we often sit while drinking tea and talk about all sorts of things, about the world and every kind of topic. We were discussing about religion, and i said that people do not have to go to church to recieve the love of God. He goes to church himself but i do not, and he totally agreed with me that you do not have to go to church to be loved uncondtionaly by God. I would defy anyone anywhere that i have as much and maybe more love for God than anyone who goes to church regularly. When my time on this earth comes to an end, i will be treated in the same way as a bishop or even a pope, because God does not descriminate. As each new day passes my love for God gets stronger, it has to because as another day dawns i become closer to the kingdom of heaven, as i get older and therfore reduce my chances of living, day by day. The point of having people like priests and clergymen of any denomination is something that is lost on me. Everybody at some time in their life has sinned, there is only one that is without sin and that is God.His immaculate love for his children is the purest and perfect form of love there is. Priests and clergymen are only akin to promoters of God on earth, but if you TRULY belivee in the word of the Lord you do not have to go to church. My love for God is total, i know that i do not have to even read a bible, because i am one of his children. He is my creator and my love for him knows no bounds, i look forward to the day when he welcomes me, as a shepherd would welcome a straying sheep within his flock and bathe for eternity within his immaculate love. Goldenrose. |
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muted
since 2004-01-15
Posts 2949Elapsing, Eclipsing, Evolving |
though my path is different than yours... i suppose church and the bible and such are there to teach...yes, of course love can be just as strong without these things..your faith is enormous  but knowledge is also important for understading further the history of your path. but no matter what, i believe, that if each of us live for a purpose, then that purpose will reward us in the end  but im only one voice  |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
You are entitled to your opinion just as much as anyone else Dawn, but my friend has talked to his priest and he says that you should NOT stay at home and refrain from going to church, but is he saying that because of HIS self interest?..ie ''he would say that wouldnt he..if nobody went to church he would be out of a job''...i think the word of the Lord..his teachings..and the life and history of the world are important....but why do we have to have someone telling us how to pray?..and what to pray about?....you might as well go to a library and read the bible there..you get the same spiritual upliftment. I think that if we realy thought about it we could TOTALLY dispense with churches and priests of all kinds and sell off all of their assets and give their vast wealth to the people who relay need it...not stick it in vast vaults around the world and horde it while people suffer and die...if all the religions of the world were not willing to give ALL of their money up willingly..they should be made to give it up...there are people who are dying from nothing more than hunger and starvation...and they need money to survive NOW..but the clergy will still have vast wealth tommorow, next week and for a long tike in the future....so i ask this..are they really representing God?..i trhink not, God cares nothing for monetary gain..or material riches..only Love and life.. ''Each soul is potentialy divine..the goal is to manifest that divinity'' |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I can't say what "we" need to do--but my humble opinion is not that "I" need to go to church--I need to become a church. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Hi everyone! Personally, I agree that you don't HAVE to go to church to find God. That's the point of Him.. you don't have to go into a place built by human hands, for just being in His creation can bring us into communion with Him. I think that the Bible is important.. I see it as the living Word of God. I do think that going to church can be good, however. Unfortunately, today it is hard to find a church that is truely good and uncorrupt... I guess I shouldn't say 'going to church', really. It's more about fellowship. Jesus said when there are two or three gathered in His Name that He is in their midst. I feel God just as much when I talk about Him to others, just a couple of friends, or even in the e-mail of a Christian friend from home. I do think that fellowship is important. Not nessisary, but important. Churches do good things, but I guess my point is that many of them are ran by men, and not by God. We know our own hearts, however. Oh, make me Thine forever |
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berengar Member
since 2004-01-02
Posts 86 |
Serenity Great point. Should we attend church?? The church is nothing more or less than the community of Christians, it is not a matter of bums on pews, and the individual believer is like an ember in the fire. Take the ember (or individual) out of the fire (read church, the community) and it will either blacken and die, cut off from its nutritional source, or start another fire (depending, I suppose, on its vitality and the surrounding environment, including the presence of oxygen - read Holy Spirit, perhaps). Does this somewhat convoluted analogy help answer the question Goldenrose? |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Berengar: I like your analogy. If we answer Goldenrose's question in the affirmative, I believe the next question we need to ask of ourselves is what characteristics should we look for in a church? Finding the right church is certainly as important (if not more important) than the realization that we ought to go in the first place. Jim |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Do we need to share our poetry to be poets? And if not, why do we? |
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Janet Marie Member Laureate
since 2000-01-22
Posts 18554 |
*smiling at Ron's enlightenment* As always...I learn in the church of the wizard. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
 I go to the pasturelands to find my poetry; and while in the pasture I care for, I also find the hand of God. |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
You ask the question in your title, but don't ask it your reply. After reading your reply, I would of titled this thread, "We Don't Need To Go To Church" ~ Chuch = ekklesia = not a building, but a group of christian people gathered together for worshipping their lord. ~ It is better to keep away from the false churches rather than attend them. ~ According to the bible there are lost sheep on their own out in this world, just as there are sheep being led by false shepards. ~ If one is to proclaim to be a christian, I don't see how that person can refrain from gathering with the church on the Sabbath. "If this grand panorama before me is what you call God...then God is not dead." |
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berengar Member
since 2004-01-02
Posts 86 |
Ron, Good comparison. A church and poetry forum have many parallels; 1) a site of affirmation 2) a place where one can bounce ideas around, including (and, in a church, necessarily) interpretation of scripture - including taking valued advice from people well versed in poetic techniques, logic, hermeneutics or whatever. 3) a social conclave of people seeking similiar things 4) a place of occasional faction and controversy, where discussion is the key to resolution (or schism, if it comes to that). There are no doubt more. Opeth, If one is a christian - which you have of course made plain that you are not - then I would contend that one is a member of Church (the community of believers) by definition. This does not necessarily imply, however, that one attends A church on the sabbath - or were christians imprisoned in gulags and suchlike no longer worthy of the label?? |
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vlraynes Member Rara Avis
since 2000-07-25
Posts 8229Somewhere... out there... |
Karen?... Amen!  |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
"were christians imprisoned in gulags and suchlike no longer worthy of the label??" True! Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
Maybe i should rename my thread as ''Do we Need church'' per se...i let other people have their say, but to me i can see the point of going to church if you want to meet with people who share you religious views, but if you just want to gather in the name of the lord and have jesus's company coming amongst you...do as jesus did and go to the montains..use the churches ...all of them..cathedrals as well... to help the poeple without homes to go to...the rich of this world get richer and poor get poorer..if the church wanted to put itself on a better footing with the people it would redress this balance...but it does not..it carries on putting it's head in the sand i saying ''im alright jack'' ''dont come to us for money..we cannot live like kings AND give money to the needy''.... Again i say do we need curches...per se? Goldenrose. ''Each soul is potentialy divine..the goal is to manifest that divinity'' |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
quote: I would say that your assertion here is quite frightening, to me at least, Goldenrose. Who would you have to be the ones doing the "making" of these institutions to give up their wealth? And why stop there? How about businesses as well? And all proceeds that anyone derives from working for a living? It sure sounds like communism to me. I think a thorough reading of the New Testament will give you the sense that giving is voluntary, there is nothing forced about it, nor do I think you can find any justifiation within it that a forced taking of another's assets is permissable, by any stretch of the imagination. And any points that you do see that apply as a general life principle, as I've mentioned to you before, are always to be directed to ourselves personally, before we attempt to 'correct' anyone else. I think we all need to get our eyes off of 'others' wealth, and tend to our own matters as best we can. |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
My argument can in no way be construed as communism..i am not saying that people should not worship God i am saying do we need to worship him in a church..if you read the start of this thread i clearly said that i love God as much as anyone else..if not more..i just do not see the need to go to church... To be communistic is to be athiest...they do not believe in God..so your claim that it is communism is seriously flawed.... I just think that the sort of power that church leaders exhert over people is far too much..this is one of the reasons innocent people do not report serious sexual allegations..they think that the priests MUST be right..if they are abusing them...because their power has become absolute....it shapes nations..just look at Ireland..everything that even their government do, has to ratified first by the church..they virually run Ireland..again i say ....you don't have to listen to a priest to truly believe in the word of God..i do not and i am the embodiment of a person at peace with Gods love and law... Goldenrose. ''Each soul is potentialy divine..the goal is to manifest that divinity'' |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I don't believe that one needs to go to a church to believe in or worship God either Goldenrose, not at all. But I also don't think that we should abolish institutions because we personally don't agree with them or personally don't have a need for them. Some people do agree with them and/or have a need for them. And aside from your not being an aethist, your views are definitely of a communistic flavor, in the seizing of other's wealth for the so-called betterment of society. But that being said, I in no way questioned your devotion to, and love of God. God deals with people on an individual level, I think, for the most part. He will have to reach those who are entrenched in the grip of mind-controlling institutions. I see our part as holding up the light to a better way. I don't see our part as destroyers of those institutions that we don't believe in. |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
"Opeth, If one is a christian... then I would contend that one is a member of Church (the community of believers) by definition. This does not necessarily imply, however, that one attends A church on the sabbath - or were christians imprisoned in gulags and suchlike no longer worthy of the label??" ~ Reread my reply. I stated that there will be lost sheep away from the flock=ekklesia. So, to answer your question... no. However, for those christians who are not separated from the flock, the holy spirit of God will enable them to know and understand the 4th commandment, and to keep it, of course. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
I thought I'd offer this passage to this discussion as well. John 4:20-21,23: Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Whereso you your religion bear a church is always kept right there. |
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sea_of_okc Senior Member
since 1999-06-15
Posts 568Oklahoma City, OK, USA |
One certainly does not need to go to church because God already gave us all the answers inside. But I will say going to a gathering of true believers is a good way to renew the spirit just absorbing the spiritual energy in the place. Sorry but any church with music like a funeral dirge and congregants that move about like extras from the Night of the Living Dead just doesn't do much for me. Also speaking with other seekers of the truth can help you see things in a different way and help you discover hidden truths. There is only one God and it one of humankind's greatest embarassments that we kill each other over what to name Him. Peace and love all |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
Denise..you are still insisting that my views are of ''a communistic flavour'' how am i being communistic when all i want is for the church to show the compassion that it says it has in abundance, and give all of its vast wealth to the starving and the sick?....If the church want people to give to the needy they should start the ball rolling...and when i said they should be forced to give their wealth...there are different kinds of force..for instance how about a democratic vote from all of it's parrishoners?. If all people who want to help make the world a better place are labled as communists....maybe you could argue that someone say like Mother Thereasa is also a communist..beacuse she gave all of the sick within her area everything she had...she is the example that all chuch leaders should follow...poverty...living with the people she is trying to save...with just the basic of clothes...not living in houses with priceless oil paintings on the wall...my goodness that is realy slumming it isn't it? The leaders of all of the worlds religions should follow Jesus and wear basic robes...not purple silk...and fine hand stitched clothing....the vatican alone could solve all of the world poverty problems at a stroke with all of their wealth..but i dont see the removal vans coming in to take their possesions ready for sale...it is just greed on a grand scale and if jesus came back to tommorow he would instruct ALL of the christian religious leaders to sell everything..but then he may be considered to be a communist for forcing them to sell their posesions...LOL.... I do not want to cause any fall outs here..my message is of peace and love for ALL of the people of the world, as humans how can we stand idly by and see other fellow humans suffer and die..when we know we have the wealth to help?..that is all that i am saying..... Goldenrose. ''Each soul is potentialy divine..the goal is to manifest that divinity'' |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Goldenrose- The fair distribution on wealth is, at its heart, a communistic principle. Maybe, first, you should remove the stigma from the word 'communist.' You seem so scared of that word, like its godlessness is going to infect you or something. But, seriously, when you talk about forcing people to give up wealth and distribute it mroe fairly, that's exactly what you are advocating. Also, I didn't think that having a certain economic standpoint automatically set you up as an atheist? And also- what's so wrong with atheists? One more point... why is everyone "defining" church as a congregation of Christians? There is more than one type of church, y'know. This thread is so full of assumptions it astounds me. |
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GG Member Elite
since 2002-12-03
Posts 3532Lost in thought |
Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. No we don't need to go to church to be loved by God. And to get to heaven what we need to do is to accept Christ as our saviour AND to live that out. Church is where we're to fellowship and also where we're to pay our tithes. Plus there's the whole added bonus of learning more about Him, maybe even of being convicted of something we may be doing wrong or something we may need to do. As for reading the Bible... well, Christ himself read the Old Testament and quoted it often. And the New Testament is about Him.. It is God's love letter to us and his instruction for how we're to live, it is God breathed, God inspired... Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. If its good enough for God then its good enough for me. If the Bible wasn't to read then He wouldn't have given it to us. As children of God we have to do more then just love and accept Him. We need to take up our cross and follow Him. (The Bible says this at least five times in just matthew, mark, and luke.) We need to be daily examples of Him and lights for Him. To spread the Gospel. Also as Christians we're accountable for where we make others fall or stumble. If a non-christian sees you not going to church then there's a good chance they'll say church must not be necessary and won't go, even when they need the conviction it could bring (through the Holy Spirit). True, I know, that there are few churches not entirely filled with hypocrites. But sometimes even the church is where we're to be the biggest light to. God bless. Always God's Girl, Alyssa He was a man of sorrows ...I am a girl of tears. [This message has been edited by GG (03-11-2004 03:35 PM).] |
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sea_of_okc Senior Member
since 1999-06-15
Posts 568Oklahoma City, OK, USA |
I understand where goldenrose is coming from and it is not communistic. The question is in an ideal world what is the purpose of the church? It is simply to take care of the flock. There should be no need for any mambers of a church family to go without the necessities of life, the church was always the first place for charity. Today so many religions are being run like businesses in competition with one another trying to fill thier seats and coffers. I believe the point golden is trying to make is wouldn't the money religions spend on grandiose buildings, fine furnishings, expensive clothing, etc etc better serve God's purpose for the church if it went to helping the needy? Why should leaders of any religion live like kings? They should live the same as the lowliest of the church's servants. After all, though Jesus was the greatest He lived the most humbly. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Goldenrose, my point is that you can't just decide to force any institution or any person to give up their wealth because you or I think that they should for the betterment of society. Well, you could, but that would be communistic. You can't force a display of compassion. Other's wealth is not ours to decide what is to be done with it. It is theirs. It becomes theirs when the contributions are given to them. And if the people in those institutions don't want to contribute any longer to those institutions because they think the money would be put to better use elsewhere, well, then they can just stop contributing to them. As for Mother Teresa, no one forced her to give up all that she had. That was her choice. She voluntarily gave up her significant family wealth and devoted her life to selflessly serving the poor and the outcasts of society. I think that's beautiful and I think it is Christ-like. But if it had been something that had been forced upon her, well then, where's the beauty or Christ-likeness in such a situation? We all have our different callings in life, as I see it. Some are called to live as Mother Teresa did, some aren't but are called to serve in other ways, and again, I think that someone's calling is between them and God, and not something to be judged by anyone else. Your compassion for the poor is commedable, Goldenrose. I just think you cross the line in your zealousness when you advocate the confiscation of other's wealth to meet their needs. Perhaps you should just ask what you could do with some portion of your money in the way of alleviating some of the suffering in the world, or maybe you might want to use your compassion to start some sort of organization to raise money (voluntarily from others) to help the poor. I'm sure if you channeled that compassion in a constructive way you could accomplish great things! GG, that is a verse that is used by many churches to compel attendance, and usually it is interpreted in such a way as to intimate that you aren't following God's will if you aren't at church for Sunday morning Bible study, Worship service, Sunday evening Praise and Worship (or Saturday, depending on the denomination), Mid-week Bible study and fellowship and on and on and on. To me the verse simply means not to forsake gathering together with other believers, no time or place designations. Remember, at the time it was written, there were no 'organized' institutions as we have today, such as the First Methodist Church at Fifth and Main. There were informal gatherings, mostly in other's homes. Now if someone wants to go to all the services offered at a local organized institution, that's fine. I just think that the verse is used heavy-handedly by a lot of them, in my experience anyway. In fact all (about 4 or 5 different denominations) of the churches that I have attended over the years have used it that way. I think they read more into it than what is actually being said. And you might want to do a study on the concept of tithing as preached in most churches too. Tithing was a part of the Mosaic Law and it never involved money, it was giving a percentage of crops and livestock, etc. (and they did have money back then!) and it never applied to the poor, and it was given only to the Nation of Israel for the purpose of taking care of the priesthood (the Levites, I think?) and not to the people of the other nations. It was really like their taxation. There is nothing in the New Testament Epistles to Christians concerning tithing. The only thing mentioned to Christians is to give voluntarily from your heart, to give to the poor, to give to those who teach you, and not under compulsion, and not letting your right hand know what the left is doing, etc. I think this is another topic that is mishandled and misapplied by most churches today too. And again, if someone wants to give 10% or more of their income (one church I went to said that it had to be at least 10% of your gross wages, before taxes, in order to be in compliance, otherwise you were stealing from God) that's wonderful. But I don't see it taught as a principle for Christians. And I've learned over the years, the hard way, that we have to question and study out everything that we are told before something can be accepted as a truth. I think a healthy skepticism is a great safeguard, especially in biblical matters. |
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GG Member Elite
since 2002-12-03
Posts 3532Lost in thought |
Denise, You're right that the verse is overused in a manner made to make people feel like they need to attend every single church event. That isn't my intention. I agree that it means we need to not forsake gathering together with other believers without specific time or place designations... but also think the point of the meeting needs to be for fellowship and teaching of Christ and His word. There are few times I know of that happens apart from at a church. And as for tithing, I agree with most of what you said there, too. I shouldn't have used the word tithing, maybe offering would have been more accurate, or at least a better explnation of what I meant by it. But I do still think we're told to give, whether it be money or some other fruit of our labor. As you said, the Bible says (in 1 corinthians 9) that we need to give to our teachers.. to Christian workers. Its an obligation. Not a tithing law bound by a physical letter, but maybe even more binding, its a spiritual administration. Even Cain and Abel were compelled to give to God before a law was in place demanding it. When Cain didn't give God what He rightly deserved, Cain was punished. And later, the laws about the priesthood and tithing weren't so much done away with but more so they were transferred to the eternal, immortal priesthood... Melchizedek, Christ (Hebrews 7). In what I get from that it means we're to give an offering, humbly (and cautiously as to make sure it is going for a godly cause) but also necessarily. So, show me the fault in that. I'm sixteen and still have alot more to learn... Always God's Girl, Alyssa He was a man of sorrows ...I am a girl of tears. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Yes, I'd definitely agree that the gathering together with other believers would have its purpose centered in Christ. Absolutely! And yes, Offering is a much better word to describe a Christian's giving. I would just encourage you to try to let go of that little word 'necessarily', because, and maybe even to your surprise, you will find yourself still giving and giving even more joyfully. I know it sure surprised me! Looking back, I never really gave 'freely' and 'joyfully' as long as 'necessity' was lurking in the background. And I'm not finding fault, Alyssa, I'm just sharing some of what I've learned the hard way through the years. And free of charge to boot! |
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GG Member Elite
since 2002-12-03
Posts 3532Lost in thought |
I should have been more careful with that last line 'show me the fault' too.. heh it looked proud and disrespectful, but I meant it honestly. I DO have a lot to learn still, and want to know where I'm too off on what I'm saying or how I'm translating things. God bless. Always God's Girl, Alyssa He was a man of sorrows |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I took it as an honest question, Alyssa, not as prideful or disrespectful. |
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