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A home without a wall, |
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| How to Join | Member's Area | Private Library | Search | Sanctuary | Login | |
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| Main Forums | Discussion | Tech Talk | Mature Content | Archives |
A home without a wall, |
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| The Alley |
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Critique |
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Professor Gloom Member Elite
since 2000-07-23
Posts 3082of Depression |
Ah the wonder of it, Critique Definition: 1 an essay or article containing a careful analysis of a literary or artistic work; review. 2 The art of criticizing; criticism Ron said we could bring this back up again, so as the Professor (and with a minor in English) I felt I should. Perhaps I am the one that caused this, Not that I remember any recent events where I have critiqued harshly, But I have been known to do it. Yes even to first time posts. When I do I am not doing it to run down the poet Rather to aid and nurture the poet. Although I do get carried away at time, such is the poet in me gushing forth, In fact I have been known to actually rewrite poems As a way of example. I know of one case where the poet I rewrote changed the critique message so I wouldn’t do it to their poem again. Which is what the message is there for, as well as that little check mark. If anyone ever things my critique is unfair Send me an e-mail, I’ll change the message. Maybe Ron should add a Cotton Candy area Where people only respond with sugar-coated fluff, But don’t expect me to post there I rather heard a well thought out critique in a kind manner Or the emotion that the poem gives to the reader. Too many poetry places are flames or fluff Here is a better environment Thanks for it Ron. Gloom |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: See, you were doing really, really well here, Gloom, until you inadvertently slipped into judgment mode. One person's fluff is another person's acknowledgement, just as one person's critique can often be another person's drivel. The idea, not just here in the forums but I think in all of life's relationships, is that we should all be able to get what we want, without pushing others to want what we give them. The only way that works is if we recognize other people's desires as valid, even when (as is usually the case) we can't understand those desires. |
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Tais Member
since 2004-01-28
Posts 92Ontario, Canada |
Hi, I hope I am not intruding with my opinion in this thread. I am new here, so I can only say what I think about critique, in general, but not the way it is given here. I haven't read nor posted enough to give my opinion of the way people critique in this site. About critique: -I don't have any English degree at all. I am a chemist, a teacher, an activist and some other things. -I love reading poetry. Some of them make me cry, some make me laugh, some make me think about life more, some make my heart flutter with butterflies and many more feelings. -I love writing poetry. The words are on my mind, the feeling is in my heart. So I write, edit, re-edit, and am proud of the final draft. But, I love opinon from the 'experts'. Their opinions on my work help me improve, and that's very satisfying. -I have feelings. So words sometimes hurt. For example: If someone tells me that I don't know how to write, or that I'm a lousy poet, I will get hurt. Why? It's because I consider them experts and I take their opinions on my work serously. I listen to them and try to learn. But how does one improve their writing, when someone says they are a lousy poet? I don't think, in this case, there is any room left for improvement...only the decision to stop writing then. That's only an example, I haven't seen it written anywhere. But words are important - choose them wisely. The experts in English know this, and know how to express themselves very well. I like nice comments. They make me feel good and feel that someone liked my work. It inspires me. But I also like critique. It helps me improve. But I think the problem being discussed here is: What's the difference between a constructive critique and an insult? Nothing, in my opinion, makes people more discouraged to write, than someone telling them they don't know how. It might be just the way it was said. But it *is* psychological. It does affect the writer in a negative way. I don't take things personally. But as I do tend to listen and take seriously, those who have expertise in a certain area, it does hurt and discourages to continue to write if they were tell me I don't know how. Just my feelings on this...I do want to improve but not be discouraged. I do like compliments, they give me inspiration. When I mentioned 'experts' I am referring to people who have studied a lot in their area, and know how to analyze other people's work. They are here to help, not to destroy. And I am sure that a lot of them do help and encourage at the same time. Tais  |
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Professor Gloom Member Elite
since 2000-07-23
Posts 3082of Depression |
Ron, thanks for the comment, I hope you realize that I was not advocating a forum, But tongue in cheek attempting to point out that diversity of opinion All flame or all fluff does not make an interesting place to post. I also was not advocating any changes to policy Things are fine as they are, problems can be worked out With communications. Tais, All comments are welcomed by me that are thoughtful, as yours are. I also am a chemist, that was my major and why I could only minor in English Those labs just took up too much time. And critique is very different than flaming, Flaming is telling someone you dislike the piece Critique is telling why you dislike the piece. Gloom |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
What is the difference between an insult and a critique? A critique can be discussed, an insult can be ignored. |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
 BRAVO, loved Brad's reply!I find there is a very big difference between critiquing and criticising. One is constructive, the other is generally destructive. One helps you grow, the other can make you shrink in fear if you are a reactive person who gives too big a hoot about another's opinion. I never object to critques of my work, though I rarely get them for some reason. HUMPH! I KNOW I have lots of room for improvemnet. BTW, I have a degree in English, but rarely feel competent to critique, and find criticising leaves a very bitter taste on my tongue. Some people just write to share, not caring about punctuation, grammar or form. that doesn't make their poetry or prose any less interesting, but it DOES frustrate an English major or graduate when they've endured yards and yards of red line marks on term papers, only to find out their work isn't any more popular than the person who MISSPELLS constantly and refuse to follow the "established rules" of English. LOL, I wish some people would lighten up a bit and learn to enjoy the content rather than the form, but for those who ask for critiques? LETEM HAVIT! |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Oh come on Brad - you know there are some who can't distinguish between the two...subjectivity and whatnot  K |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
If they don't know, they should ask. |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Nice idea but good luck? K |
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A Romantic Heart Member Ascendant
since 1999-09-03
Posts 5496Forever In Your Heart |
It is not a matter of knowing what is critique or criticism, but if the poet request for it or not....and if the poet explains what kind of reply they want.(common sense tells you from this written inside their critique box"If you don't have anything good to say then don't say anything at all") to me they are not asking for ANY critique or criticism..why is it so hard to not RESPECT their preference.....and reply accordingly...or not reply at all.... Open your eyes, open your mind, open your heart, let me come in and show you love.....~ARH [This message has been edited by A Romantic Heart (01-31-2004 06:23 AM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
But you gotta admit that this is a little ambiguous when placed in the full context: A Romantic Heart encourages Constructive Critiques: "If you don't have anything good to say then don't say anything at all" Of course, it's clear now what you meant, but, but 'good' here could mean something quite different than you intended. To be sure, I'm not blaming you. My critique box was off for six months or so without realizing it. To those who knew me, it didn't matter of course, but it's certainly possible that some new guy refrained from a really good, scathing critique because he or she was actually trying to follow the rules. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I suspect that's because the only distinction between an insult and critique is not an external one. I discuss insults frequently enough (wasted, seemingly, a few hours yesterday doing exactly that) and routinely ignore critiques from people with too little information to judge, so I'm afraid Brad's sound bite is a little too simplified to suit me. After all, good insults can be just as useful as good critiques, and bad critiques just as useless as bad insults. The only consistent difference I've ever found between the two is intent. And that's a tough nut to crack. Most of my life has been spent guessing, not just as to other's intentions, but very often even guessing as to my own. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Oh, c'mon Ron. I think you're just jealous of my newly developed skill: Brevity. Okay, maybe it's not all that skillful. The key word is 'can' in both clauses. Still, it might be more accurate to say that critiques can be discussed, declarative statements can be ignored, but that doesn't sound as nice. |
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Paula Finn Member Ascendant
since 2000-06-17
Posts 5546missouri |
Ok I know I don't get here very often anymore, and I try to read as much as I can so I don't even post many replies. But to me, and this is how I feel about me as well, I write from my heart...no its not always or even close to perfect, its just what I feel. I can't critique myself and I sure as heck don't feel qualified to critique anyone else. So I do reply with "fluff" replies...so what? There is a forum here for poets who choose to have thier poetry critiqued. Otherwise I think if you can't say something nice you shouldn't say anything at all...just my opinion |
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bslicker
since 2000-12-04
Posts 2321state of mind |
gosh i think that i need to go back to school and get my english degree, so i can comment on posts. darn what should i do about building networks for the last 25 years, i really feel stupid now, guess i am not smart enough to post in pip or even moderate anymore. hey i knows all you english majors, want to teach me how to write my feelings, i'll teach you all how to build networks. wonder what the kids in school now would say about all these english majors teaching them and trying to figure out which one is actually correct. darn it just 2 cents couldn't help it after all the reading. bernie A smile a day keeps the world in smile's. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
And yet, why do you write so that it looks like traditional poetry? What is the connection between feeling, as you say, and linebreaks? |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Wow! Kudos to Brad. (And to those who actually think about the question before answering it.) |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
Is poetry a science? Does structure, meter, or line break form the rhythm of the poem or does the feeling of the poet create the structure, rhythm and indeed, the line breaks of the poem? Did the poets of old say to themselves, hey let's change the foot in this one and try some iambic; or perhaps we should change from anapestic tetrameter to dactylic, or perhaps throw in a bit of enjambment to spice up the poem? To be a poet, must one be versed in metrical scansion? A poem is created out of the soul of the poet which allows for the creation of images, illusions, metaphors, similes, feeling and emotion. Emotion is not created by form. Do basic rules need to be adhered to in writing poetry? As a general rule, yes. But to every rule there are exceptions. Perhaps the best poets are the ones who understand and know the rules but are able to move beyond them. Is critique valuable? Very much so, but it is not the end all. If great poetry were just form then the world would be blessed with limitless breathtaking poetry to experience and enjoy. The connection between feeling and line breaks? My opinion is line breaks are created by the feeling. Which might be why each great poet has his or her own style. Does a poet have to know the difference between a feminine and a masculine line ending, or what about the dreaded caesura to be able to write good poetry? A poet should attempt to learn and understand, but most importantly, a poet has to feel. Then the line breaks will fall where the poet gods destine they fall. Just my opinion. [This message has been edited by Tim (02-05-2004 12:20 AM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Yeah, that's what the Romantics did, some of them at least. But, Tim, you've completely neglected one aspect of poetry, some would say the most important part: Sound |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
different track, but I would say that is the great weakness of modern poetry. It leans towards a visualization of its form and not the spoken word. in fact, in my limited opinion, the more you rely on sound, the less you need to rely on critique and following the "rules" because your ears are going to take you where you need to go. So you can put me solidly in the sound camp. you can bet your assonance on it. (sorry, long day, approaching midnight here) |
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A Romantic Heart Member Ascendant
since 1999-09-03
Posts 5496Forever In Your Heart |
To me poetry is an art, just like singing, dancing, painting, etc. All are created from self expression, therefore having a soul.Some are born naturally with a gift for these talents. Steven King words: "I believe you can make a good writer better,(to enhance what is already there) but I don't believe you can take just anyone and send them to writing school and they become a writer, it all starts with a passion and desire.Either you have it or you don't. Who is to say or judge that one abstract painting is better than a Bob Ross oil painting...to me they are all beautiful because they represent the creators heart. Each person is giving and displaying an intimate part of them for you to see. How can one expression be better or more perfect than the other....each piece is created with a soul. Therefore to me, we would be judging eachothers soul. I could do poetry about a tree, and have all the grammer , t's and i's doted etc. If the poem is dead...no feeling or soul..what is the purpose? To me it would not be unique, just like reading a newspaper... To me it is like a human without a soul, no heart. I do believe in learning and being better at what you desire to do. I have heard singers just sing...and then I have listened to ones that made me cry...pulled my heart out. To me that is the difference, that is the passion, the soul, that is when it becomes more than words...You walk away changed, inspired,feeling and seeing the world differently. It affects you and leaves its mark...that is the magic. To me there is not a certain formula to follow, then we would all be like the Stepford Wives..robots...diversity is what makes us different, unique. As an artist, I would prefer to paint with a variety of one hundred colors..instead of using just eight...it makes the painting more real, alive and colorful...just as we as individuals make and create the world to be more colorful.Each bringing something different to the table of life.. Art is words expressed though paintings..etc. Dancing is expression of words through body language. Movies/film...words put into motion to allow you to see and feel the story being told. Singing is poetry in motion...words put to rhythm.... Writing is words put together to tell a story... Poetry is passionate words put together in a rhythm....To express the heart and deep thoughts. To me all of the gifts of the arts go hand in hand..they are are born and created by emotion, feeling, desire and passion.If not, it is all dead......words with no purpose or meaning. To me words are the most powerful tool in the universe...they can destroy, divide,encourage and inspire. After all,God created them...he knew how powerful they are...in the bible, it states that his word is sharper than a two edged sword...cutting the heart like a knife. Open your eyes, open your mind, open your heart, let me come in and show you love.....~ARH |
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2writeis2be Junior Member
since 2004-01-11
Posts 45Live in London, but from TX |
The main reason people put poetry on this forum is b/c they are proud of their work and want it to have its moment of glory. But for those that ask for/allow critique, they should justly get it--good or bad. Sometimes the author will find himself offended by a remark about what the reader thinks is lacking or could be changed in the poem, but eventually the writer will find these remarks are useful. Hearing only good things about one's writing all the time only provides a big head full of arrogant, powerless words. Though normally I find myself only remarking on reads that I've enjoyed, and skipping past the bad ones. Anyway, I think most would agree that negative criticism is sometimes a necessary evil; while the majority only make sunny comments and happy faces, some must tell the truth so the writer knows and is not mislead. Power to the blunt ones!! "Why don't you try and learn from my mistakes? It takes half a lifetime to learn from your own." |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
To me, poetry is an art. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
To me, poetry is an art. Why not talk about it? Tim asks if poetry is a science. I ask why science is the only thing worth talking about? |
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Magnus
since 2001-10-10
Posts 14135South Carolina, USA |
Brad, I hope you and Tim are enjoying this little venture. I don't mind joining for a brief moment....for I will simply give my personal take and I don't feel learned enough to write from much more than my gut. I think both of you are correct...Poetry is an art, it is also governed by some part of science as well.... I FEEL about 1000 percent that to write good poetry, one must have a great deal of feel to convey something to a reader and have that reader FEEL what the author felt. It can be enhanced by knowing more of the technical side of poetry....by learning about scansion, meter, alliteration, use of the vocabulary in ways that enhance a line. The proper or what feels proper as far as line breaks are concerned.....etc. etc. ad infinitum.... I am not one to strut around and say I know all there is to know about poetry...for I am far from it....I write with feel, I write with what I hear inside my mind as well as what I imagine and see within my mind's eye.... Good luck....I think you both have some excellent points.... Barry [This message has been edited by Magnus (02-06-2004 09:57 PM).] |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
For art and science cannot exist but in minutely organized particulars- Blake I have a daughter who is smarter than the person who invented whipped cream. (she took after her mama) played the clarinet. First chair, private lessons, state band, went to the big city to play in their youth symphony, music scholarship, perfect fundamentals. Went on to medical school, became a doctor and hasn't played her clarinet for years. She plays music without flaw playing with precision, but never played for the joy of playing; she played to perfect her skills. Is she is a musician? I on the other hand would die ( well, maybe not die, but would give up whipped cream) to be able to play an instrument. tone death to an absolute. In the second grade my teacher took me aside and said Tim, why don't you just mouth the words and don't sing. I have not sang in public since that day. But do I love to sing and drive my wife crazy with my singing. Am I a musician? Neither of us will great musicians for different reasons. I will never be a competent musician. I will always be a terrible musician. She will always play immeasurably better than I ever possible will be able. Art is heart, but without the particulars, you may well have a wife who tells you to shut up, but what the hey, I keep singing anyway. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Ah, but are you a poet? |
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Magnus
since 2001-10-10
Posts 14135South Carolina, USA |
Brad, grinning at your question...I can say without question that he is indeed a poet. And, for the record, I too can't sing worth a hoot!! Good Morning to you both. |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
Yes, just a poor one. But is it an offense not to be great? Does it make a difference if weakness is not based upon lack of effort? If the goal is not greatness, then what criteria should be employed? Is not writing like most things in life, a balancing test? The question is, where do you put the fulcrum? Does everyone hear the same poem? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
While I certainly appreciate the levity, Magnus, you missed the point. Are you a poet? |
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Magnus
since 2001-10-10
Posts 14135South Carolina, USA |
Ahhh, the questions that we ask ourselves of ourselves and what we perceive that we are capable of being... I know them well....greatness...hmmmm, no I don't feel that greatness will ever be a shadow cast from the sun shining over my withered bones... I do believe that there are those that have natural ability that gives them an edge, though I believe very strongly that to be a great, truly a great poet, one must know much of the arts, of language, of poetic form, etc.....and few take the time that is needed to ever get to that point. After about fifty-seven guhzillion words being written....it takes a lot to write something that is both unique as well as great.... JMHO... no more, no less....Tim....you are good at what you do. Are any of us great poets? Probably not. Could we be? I think so...but my belief is that it would require a huge amount of work and discipline to get there...plus...a degree of self confidence that I know I don't possess..... |
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Magnus
since 2001-10-10
Posts 14135South Carolina, USA |
Brad...to answer your question outright, yes....I am a poet...on a scale....from one to ten....about a five....but yes, I am a poet....If you want me to get out of this, just let me know.... |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Yes, Tim. So why is it wrong to discuss the questions you've asked? |
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Magnus
since 2001-10-10
Posts 14135South Carolina, USA |
You guys have fun.... |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Magnus, I very much appreciate the time you've put into this thread. I do not want you to stop, I want you to think. I want everybody to think. Is that really condescending? |
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Magnus
since 2001-10-10
Posts 14135South Carolina, USA |
Thanx Brad...I guess that I have just come into this too late to understand in black and white what the real question is? Think? Oh boy, do that often, frequently.. Have assessed my abilities many times... I have to agree with one thought...where is the fulcrum that one uses to guage where they are poetically? When does one consider themselves to be "a poet"...??? Does that make sense? |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
Unfortunately, I will be guilty of the same offense as was Magnus. My initial reaction to Brad's last post was to smile. And Magnus, I do appreciate the input as unfortunately the thread in my opinion was becoming a one man show and I was beginning to feel like I was talking to myself with Brad providing the links to continue. The purpose of my questions was to draw others out and maybe bring in some input from others. I received a significant portion of my education in that fashion and somehow over the years I have grown to strongly suspect Brad employs the same method on the other side of the lecturn. So please do not feel in anyway you need to leave as your input carries as much or more weight than my mutterings and I would rather hear from others than from myself. (I have a tendency to bore myself if truth be known) |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
In a way, that is the point Magnus, there is no answer set in concrete and not trying to be obtuse, sometimes defining the question is equally as difficult as providing an answer. |
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Magnus
since 2001-10-10
Posts 14135South Carolina, USA |
Tim, thanx...I have not felt that I should leave, just that perhaps I am out in left field somewhere...and the ball is going over to right field. I have never been one to go into lengthy discussions, sort of quiet and just sit back and "listen", so to speak. I thought I could add to this somewhat with my own insight, feelings...My only problem is that I don't think I was sure of what the question really was and perhaps even WHY was the question as it was...(I have not read all of the remarks within this thread)... SO, I am sort of coming into the game late and catching up. I think Brad has some valid thoughts to ponder...and I do believe WE are.... Thanx... Barry It still goes back to a basic question. What does one guage by? And no, I am in no position to be condescending. Nor will I be. My position on the pedestal is not that high...Who is? Perhaps none of us.... |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Magnus, Of course you make sense. What I'm trying to do is show, not tell, why critique makes sense. |
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Magnus
since 2001-10-10
Posts 14135South Carolina, USA |
Now I understand...and yes, that is a tough one....I believe critique makes a great deal of sense. For I believe there are many who are called poets that have a great deal to learn about poetry... Problem is, will they open their minds enough to allow the learning process to take place.... Wouldn't it be great if we all had a mentor, a truly learned one...who we would sit and listen to, allow them to feed us that which we need to learn more of this "art"... Yeah, critique is a tough one....and I am also of the opinion that using the internet as a vehicle for critique sometimes hinders as much as it aids.... It is so black and white, hard to temper... Ok, I'm here....I think? |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
Magnus, in the Socratic method you make the other person come to the conclusion by facing the questions you ask. That is all Brad is trying to do, and he is very adept at it. Just don't read to much into the questions and make it all too metaphysical. In simplest terms, critique is necessary as well as a poet's soul. If the weakness of your poetry from a technical standpoint is so poor it detracts from what you are trying to say, then you have failed as a poet. If you write a technically brilliant poem but two days later the person has no remembrance of you poem as it said nothing worthwhile, then you have failed as a poet. The answer is we should all write with technical brilliance with the soul of Byron. How do you get there? Just saw your post, yep, I think you got it. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: This is where it begins. This is where we begin to ask the right questions. |
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Magnus
since 2001-10-10
Posts 14135South Carolina, USA |
Also, DO THEY WANT to learn? Will they allow their skin to soften enough to absorb that which is given them by those who care enough to provide that critique? So many of us, me included, are afraid to critique. Why? Lack of comfort in what is the correct answer... Afraid to take that step, and not be condescending.... Just thinkin' |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
got to run off to work to get ready for a big trial Monday, but Magnus, now you have got the idea and have asked some good questions. It doesn't matter how intelligent you are or how proficient you are at poetry, or for that matter any endeavor. Getting past that little thing called ego and to accept criticism in a proper fashion is a problem every person faces no matter what they say to the contrary. have a good un. |
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Magnus
since 2001-10-10
Posts 14135South Carolina, USA |
And I agree with a very good point....IF one can write technically correct a poem and it does not stick in the craw of the reader, lingering there for some time... Bringing emotions from them....THEN.... they have failed in being able to write a great poem.... Then you have the basic problem that we go back to....will they allow someone to say, "yanno....IF perhaps you had done this.. then it would have.... which takes us back to WHO can make that determination? Who feels confident enough to step up to the plate and offer an opinion....NOT knowing whether the writer will take offense, be hurt by the criticism... Which leads you back to CA....if you step inside the door, you should be prepared to listen, to learn....CA does not make us a great poet....it is only a vehicle that helps us take one small step.... You will rarely find me in CA...simply 'cause I lack technical expertise, lack the learnings of many years of writing and listening. But there are poets here at PIP that can benefit others...if the students will just open their ears, go get the right tools and try to learn. Brad, you are pushing the right buttons, thanx. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Of course, we shouldn't go the other way. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Tim is right. Magnus, you are of course welcom at CA. I'm not what I used to be but let it happen (Pete runs it now, and he runs it well), let it hapen. I will read your poetry. |
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2writeis2be Junior Member
since 2004-01-11
Posts 45Live in London, but from TX |
Yeah, poetry is an art. There is no need to use all that meter, alliteration etc., because if you're a good writer and have feelings inside your head, you'll create a decent poem. That's basically all there is to it...very simple and yet alot of people make poetry out to be complex. The thing is that each person makes poetry out differently and each poem is portrayed uniquely in each mind. "Why don't you try and learn from my mistakes? It takes half a lifetime to learn from your own." |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: This is a mistake. You're confusing a description of a poem with a prescription. |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
How can you be a good poet without the meter and alliteration type stuff? Don't dispute we make things too complicated, but--- She walks in beauty like the night She is pretty. Neither one is very complex with one using some fairly basic poetic devices. The first is one of the most classic lines in poetry and in my humble opinion, perfection in simplicity. The second conveys the same thought and avoids meter and such. Are they both poetic expressions? If the point is- She is as beautiful as a snow white swan Her pulchitrude outshines the glow of new day's dawn, yep, you can go too far, but don't see how you cannot pay heed to poetic devices to express yourself poetically. |
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Magnus
since 2001-10-10
Posts 14135South Carolina, USA |
I have to agree with Tim and Brad...There is more to poetry besides just lines of words with feeling....How it "sounds" to the reader in their mind is also important. For example....FEEL the flow of these two lines....feel the meter... Where cracks do creep in lava seep onto the earthen floor and creatures crawl their dens to live beyond the ashen soar. Are they perfect lines? In my opinion, probably not. Do they have meter to them and rhyme? Yes, certainly so...Could the lines be improved upon? Could another person be allowed to gaze upon the lines and give the author their true and honest opinion of them, possibly offering a change to enhance what is already written? MOST DEFINITELY!! That is what critique is all about....it is about letting our guard down a notch, admitting we are all learning... and allow others to offer good and valid criticism...without being condescending, as Brad had stated earlier.... Geez, you guys got me going.... |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
another thought to throw out. A red apple. A big apple. Eight apples. Combine into one sentence. What rules of grammar were you taught to let you know in what order adjectives are to be placed before the noun? I was not taught any. Yet you know it is eight big red apples rather than big eight red apples. Does the same thought apply to poetry in that if you are going with the flow and expressing feelings that the rules will naturally follow? for humor, do you "think" let's use dactyl and a serious poem spondee, even though as a general rule you use faster rhythms for light poetry and slower rhythms for serious poetry? So maybe there is validity to 2write's position? If you write from the heart; meter, alliteration and all that stuff will be there naturally whether you plan it or not? |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: ONLY if you read widely. Education through osmosis is why so many think they can write with no formal training, whereas most wouldn't even dream of trying an oil painting or sculpture without some instruction. And that's cool, because osmosis works. The right kind of reading, I think, is a perfectly viable alternative to a more formal education. AND it's no less effort. |
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Magnus
since 2001-10-10
Posts 14135South Carolina, USA |
The reading part is a valuable tool. I use the internet as a search engine for many words that come across these walls...As I stated before, I am far from intelligent enough to accurately give technical critique of most anyone's poem. But, one thing that assists me is that I don't kid myself and I am not ashamed to admit a lack of intellect in some aspects of poetry and life as well... I am smart enough to break open the book and pick up a few things from time to time. Today has not been an exception and the time spent with you poets here has been a learning experience. Thank You... |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Just popping in here to add that I welcome critique, even bad critique. I attempt forms I have no hope of ever mastering just because it's good exercize--chuckle--bad poetry maybe--but definitely good exercize. Besides, I want to have every tool at my disposal to express more exactly what is in my heart. If I'm not growing in some capacity, I'm stagnating, yanno? So ya'll feel free to tear into any of mine--even the most abrasive critique leaves me wondering if the reader doesn't have a point. Peace. |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
Serenity, critique is a valuable tool. The only point I would make is, consider the critique and take it seriously. You definately will learn and we all can learn. Once you stop having the need to learn, you are six feet deep. But at the end of the day, it will be your poetry and to your own self be true. And I feel fairly certain you are one individual who does not need that advice. I will throw my hat in with Ron, read. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Thank you, Tim... and yup, to my own self I'm true. but I'm laughing too. the jury is still out on whether or not that's a good thing!  |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Wow, that was the next thing I was planning to do, try to give simple examples. And it's already been done. But this thread is also a good example of the whole idea behind a critique (at least what I always thought). The idea was never really to tell other people what to do, but more to talk about options. To borrow a phrase from Blanchot, we wanted to participate in an infinite conversation, the infinite conversation of what makes poetry work and what doesn't. The fact that there is no rule book is an opening to talk about it, not a reason to remain silent. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
 What started out as an Alley Thread has been bookmarked by me as a learning tool.  |
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Magnus
since 2001-10-10
Posts 14135South Carolina, USA |
So...now that we have the fire on low flame, and our thinking caps are working well, thanx to us all.... I have a poem in Open....that I would like to have looked at, commented on regarding the meter, the content within the verses, etc... Can it be in Open and CA at the same time?? |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
that one I cannot answer as I am not a power to be but rather a fly in the ointment. Can't know unless ya ask though. If you post it in CA I won't tell anyone it is in another forum, so as long as it is kept a secret, I say go for it. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Yes, you can post it in CA. Both CA and the Workshop are intended as development tools. Presumably, you first post there and after perfecting the poem (as much as you can anyway) it would be logical to present it to the larger audience of Open. Quite often though they do get posted in Open or somewhere else first, then brought to CA for possible improvement or at least discussion. Bring it on |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Yea, Magnus...I post in open, and when one really takes off and gets a lot of responses, I bite the bullet and let Pete and the others have a whack at it. I need to learn to go in reverse sometimes! Tim, you've yet to be a fly in my ointment. Thanks for such sound thoughts! Brad? You, too!! |
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