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WildPoet
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since 2003-11-10
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0 posted 2003-12-29 11:56 PM


There's a story I'm in the process of writting in Passions in Prose. One of the characters uses what I call, medium profanity. These are words that have shown up on prime time television. I've even seen them in poems here at PIP.
  I certainly make no demands that they be used here. One of the moderators explained that he was replacing the words with asterisks. That was fine with me, people can fill in their own words and not lose the flow of the story. When I questioned the used of periods (.....) instead of asterisks (****) because I believed periods stopped the reader longer than asterisks. Another moderator explained that asterisks where the same as profanity. Now I understand their reasoning on this subject, but in my opinion, asterisks are just little stars. They are not letters and they don't spell anything. It is the THOUGHT of the reader that fills in the missing word.
  Now just bear me out here, to say that asterisks is the same as profanity and to ban the use of them because people may be THINKING of bad words. Seems to me to be bordering on, oh say, Thought Police. You can't use **** because you would be THINKING bad words, and we don't want your THOUGHTS to contain profanity, so the use of **** has to be banned or you may be corrupted by your own THOUGHTS.
  I maybe completely out of line here and my THINKING may make me a candidate
for rehabilitation or even exile, but trying to control THOUGHTS is a little to extreme in the quest for an Utopian web site.
  Just my private THOUGHTS on the ban on asterisks in substituting for profanity.
I ,by no means, advocate the unbridled use of profanity and/or graphic sex at this site.

Thank you for your time, please stay on the line, your thoughts are important to us.
WildPoet

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Christopher
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1 posted 2003-12-30 12:50 PM


i see where you're coming from WildPoet. Even agree to a point. what i wonder though, is why you're trying to call "us" the thought police, while not pointing to yourself at the same time.

for what is writing - fiction, poetry, songs, etc., if not the presentation of thought put into words - presented to affect the thoughts of the reader?

every word you put down on the page is intended to provoke a certain thought from your reader. if one truly wanted a story that had no intent of affecting another's thoughts, then one could not only NOT print a story, but they could neither title it, nor, in fact, even mention its existence.

everything we say, see, do, speak, write, etc. affects the thoughts of those who are on the receiving end.

you are right, though, in saying that asterisks are not the same as profanity. it may be just an accidental misuse (or possibly misunderstanding) of words that prompted someone to say that is the reason we discourage them here at Passions.

in fact, all asterisks are is a representation of a (very) few words deemed inappropriate here at the site. what CAN be said, in lieu of above statement, is that masking a "foul" word with asterisks doesn't change the word - in that the reader can likely determine the intended word quite easily. if we were going to support that, we might as well not bother with masking them in the first place.

the asterisks aren't there to protect someone from reading "foul" words - as i said, they're probably going to read it anyway, even if it's covered in stars. no, the asterisks are more of an aid to the writer. we could simply have the software delete the word... but that would probably mess with the flow of your story or poem. so, by substituting the words with asterisks, we give the author the opportunity to take another look at their piece and determine how they can modify it to fit within the guidelines (assuming they wish to - of course they can also either choose not to post that particular piece, if they decide it loses too much without that word, or they can see if perhaps it would fit better in one of our adult forums).

it's a constant debate over the use of profanity and its eligibility according to popular media. that's a good thing. for now, though, we're where we're at, and the above's the best explanation i can provide.

Ringo
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2 posted 2003-12-30 01:14 AM


Your thoughts were very well stated, however, there are a few that I would respectfully suggest are out of place.

...trying to control THOUGHTS is a little to extreme in the quest for an Utopian web site...
Ron is not attempting to make this an Utopian site as I have understood you to suggest. He is very simply attempting to make it a site that even children can enjoy without parents having to concern themselves with what is being displayed. There are also many people in this world who are offended by such language and the themes that are put into the adult forums.

...These are words that have shown up on prime time television...
It is true that many of the words that could be better served with the ever popular "*" are heard on television, the majority of them are relegated to the premium cable movie channels, and are not readily available on broadcast. I am of course referring to the 7 that George Carlin has so eloquently reminded us of.
It is also true that parents are- most of us- intelligent to know which shows are not for children. Example, my 9 y/o daughter (who posts on here, BTW) is not permitted to watch the Osbournes simply because of the language. The people in Standards and Practices (censors) force MTV to substitute that annoying "BEEP" everytime Ozzy decides to open his mouth, yet it is very readily apparent what word he has used. Putting a blur over a naked body, or a wrestler using obscene gestures does not prevent anyone from knowing exactly what is being shown.
Also in the shows and movies where the more adult language IS being permitted, I am able to know in advance that the language is being used, and I prevent my daughter from watching said shows. I am unable to do this with a poetry site that would allow unbridled profanity, and "adult-oriented" themes to be accessed by anyone.
Instead of having a rating system for the poetry, which would over-tax an already overworked Ron and Mod Staff, the Mature Forums have been instituted where such language may be readily used without edits. If you are of an age where you are permitted access to the Mature Content, then I do not see where your challenge would lie in simply transferring your works there, as they would still be enjoyed by many... including myself. If you are not af an age, then I invite you to continue writing the adult language and themes...for your own enjoyment, as I did for nearly 20 years until I found this site.
Early on in my enjoyment of this site, I wrote a poem about the "joys" of combat, and used asterisks in place of such language as I had heard while serving in the military, and I a finger shaken in my face for doing so, and had my scribble re-posted in MC. Perhaps it is just that I am usually much more easy-going than many people I know, however I found nothing wrong with what had been done to my thoughts. They were still available for the "R" rated audiences to enjoy, yet out of the way of any children taht might be on the site or anyone (such as my mother) who would have been offended by the language.

...trying to control THOUGHTS is a little to extreme...
There has NEVER been a case of this site trying to control the thoughts of ANYONE as far as I can remember having been a member here, anymore than the movie rating organization attempts to control the thoughts of screen writers... PIP, like that organization, is attempting to control the ACCESS to those thoughts by minors. Which is something that responsible adults attempt to do every day.

...Seems to me to be bordering on, oh say, Thought Police...
While I agree with your right to think the way you think, I find this particular sentance to be insulting to the owner of this site, and to the people who made up the rules, and the Mods who enforce those rules. Again, NO ONE is attemping to block your thoughts, or your right to express those thoughts... however, as this is a privately owned site, and as we have children as young as 9 who read these pages, certain rules have been put into place to allow the greatest number an opportunity to enjoy these pages.
As I was the one that actually made the edit, I also find it insulting that you are accusing me of such actions. I did not act unilaterally to disrespect you, or to "police" your thoughts. I did it, after consulting others who serve as Mods, to enforce the rules that you, yourself agreed to follow when you joined the site almost 2 months ago.
I would invite you (and also ask you) to continue posting the story. It is well written and I am interested to see what comes next... if you feel that you must use the language that is in contention, all I ask is that you put it in Insights. It is in the Mature Content section and is designed for both poetry and prose.

And we thank you for your support.


Cause in my dreams it's always there
The evil face that twists my mind
And brings me to despair.

[This message has been edited by Ringo (12-30-2003 01:22 AM).]

WildPoet
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3 posted 2003-12-30 01:15 AM


"so, by substituting the words with asterisks,"

Ok, What I was saying is that I don't mind asterisks, that asterisks were not used to replace the words in question. Periods were used to replace the words. And I was told that asterisks were considered profanity. This is what I'm talking about here. I have no beef with the use of asterisks to sub for words. The story I'm writting isn't just for PIP. So I don't want to change anything to fit here.I don't go out of my way to write profanity. It just developed that way with one character. The asterisks are just fine with me. If asterisks are used.

Ringo
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4 posted 2003-12-30 02:35 AM


...The asterisks are just fine with me...

Ok, Then I seem to be a little confused... which is not the first time on this site. If you are OK with asterisks, etc, then why the comments about thought police and controlling the author's thoughts, and slamming the use of asterisks because "It is the THOUGHT of the reader that fills in the missing word".
And what about "so the use of **** has to be banned or you may be corrupted by your own THOUGHTS"?
I don't know... maybe it is just me, however,it seems that both sides of the argument are being served in this one thread.
Just my thoughts, though.

Cause in my dreams it's always there
The evil face that twists my mind
And brings me to despair.

Nan
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5 posted 2003-12-30 09:43 AM


We sanction neither profanity in our open forums, nor the use of asterisks to mask it - for all of the reasons so eloquently explained above.

My suggestion to you - in order to keep your verbiage intact - would be to post your work in the Mature Content area of the site.  That's exactly what this area is intended for, and your work can likely remain in its original form within our mature cyber walls...


Poet deVine
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6 posted 2003-12-30 07:26 PM


quote:

Just my private THOUGHTS on the ban on asterisks in substituting for profanity.
I ,by no means, advocate the unbridled use of profanity and/or graphic sex at this site.




I think we're jumping the gun here on a couple of issues.

The question is: do we, by banning the use of asterisks in place of words the filters catch, stop anyone from THINKING the word.

The answer is no. We cannot control someone's thoughts. I may not be putting the same word in place of the asterisks but then my public use of profanity is limited to 'rats' and 'damn'.

I think this issue has existed ever since man could read what someone wrote. We can only do our best. We may not be able to please everyone but we have been very successful with the guidelines as they are. Personally, as a writer, I would have to use the same word as WildPoet because that's what the character would say! It is not me speaking - but my character.

I have to confess that I read the story BEFORE it was posted and didn't think anything of the use of that word. In fact, I found the character's statement about the 'glue' pretty amusing. But then I'm an adult so maybe I have more sophisticated tastes.

WildPoet, I owe you an apology. I truly thought that word was allowed in Prose. I am sorry. From now on perhaps it would be best to post your work in the Mature Content forums. I'll keep looking for them.

I apologize to all of you who seemed a tad upset about this issue. It's really my fault for thinking that Ron had loosened the bonds of the software filter a tad to let some more words be usuable.

I'm sorry.

Ron
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7 posted 2003-12-30 09:08 PM


Actually, I did lower the bar on our software filter, and it was done largely as a direct result of situations like this one. For a while, the filter would flag "bastard" as unacceptable, by replacing the letters with asterisks. Then, someone used the word as a term for an illegitimate son, which just happens to be the correct definition. When used as a derogatory word for any man you don't like, it's profanity. Not to mention uncreative and lame. When used to describe a male born out of wedlock, it's perfectly acceptable English. Context defines suitability. So, I took the word out of our software filter and leave it up to the Moderators to decide, based on individual usage, when bastard is profanity or not.

The particular word being filtered in this instance was both similar and different. It's similar in that the word was used quite literally, with the correct definition in mind. In truth, I only added that word to our filters because it is SO tiring to see it continuously misused on a web site dedicated to writing. It has almost become a pronoun, so generic and meaningless it can take the place of ANY conceivable noun. As a literal word, it's really not that offensive to most. As a very tired and ubiquitous cliché, it certainly should be offensive to writers. It is the latter use which was expressly filtered.

On the other hand, though similar, this instance is also different, because even when used as a literal word, it is NOT perfectly acceptable English. It's in the dictionary, but labeled as "vulgar slang" (and with such a lengthy list of definitions as to highlight its insipid ambiguity). I can just barely see the word "bastard" legitimately coming up in conversation over the dinner table. I can't quite imagine this word, however, being suitable in any polite company. It is, as the dictionary says, vulgar. Still, when used in proper context within a story or poem, I could probably go either way. When the Moderators voted on this particular instance, I didn't feel strongly enough to cast a vote either yay or nay.

As to profanity and asterisks, and speaking in generalities rather than this specific incident, we certainly wouldn't try to control what the reader thinks, but we definitely have a responsibility to control what the writer uses our web site to communicate. Whether they use the letters of the alphabet or asterisks or pictograms, if their implied MEANING is vulgar or offensive they can simply post it somewhere else.

Frankly, I'm not really in favor of editing a writer's work, both because I wouldn't like mine to be edited and because it rarely accomplishes anything useful. Replace the word with asterisks and the meaning is still obvious. Replace the asterisks with [edit] and the meaning is STILL just as obvious. Absolutely nothing has been accomplished if the vulgar meaning remains intact.

Greeneyes
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8 posted 2003-12-31 06:51 PM


My 2 cents, as a reader and helper of the forums, if the guidelines are read, & understood we would not have to go in and do an edit.  It is simple we do have an MC area where words that are not allowed in open forums are allowed.  I am NOT pointing fingers here; the rules are set the way that they are to insure the family meaning and atmosphere.  I think it only fair to abide by those.  And agreeing with Ron, “the meaning is STILL just as obvious”.

~~**~~
This morning theres a calm I cant explain
By the time I recognize this moment it will be gone,  
I will bend light pretending it lingers on

WildPoet
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9 posted 2004-01-02 05:37 AM


Devine, you have nothing to be sorry about!
I asked your advice and you gave me good advice as always.
It was my responsiblity to stay within  the guidelines of PIP. Unfortunatly, when I read the guidelines, the part about Prime time TV standards stuck in my mind, and I went with that example having heard these words on NBC, ABC and CBS.
Had it occured to me that children as young as nine years old were visiting this site, I certainly would never have posted the story as it is written. And thats completely my fault. No one else is to blame.
I'm just someone who wanted to learn how to write down the stories in his head and get free advice.(I mean all those years of daydreaming has to pay off somehow!)
So I'll be posting the rest of the story in the Mature forum. I would still welcome everyones opinion and hope there are no hard feelings.

Thank you
WildPoet   

Aenimal
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10 posted 2004-01-02 10:21 PM


I can just barely see the word "bastard" legitimately coming up in conversation over the dinner table


a)You  must never discuss politics over dinner

b)You're in need of better conversation


Ron
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11 posted 2004-01-02 10:46 PM


a) Sure I do, Raph. But those conversations never seem to center on a man born out of wedlock. There are so many really great words to describe a politician, without resorting to a metaphor that makes little sense. A person's status at birth, like race or gender or nationality, is beyond their control and should never be a stigma or symbol of derision, for them or anyone else.

b) Probably.

Aenimal
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12 posted 2004-01-03 02:55 AM


A)Bastard along with any good profanity has a multitude of meanings Ron. Adaptability, evolution and creativity are what make swear words great. The F word for example is the most versatile word in the english language being a Noun, Adjective, verb etc.

B)Lighten up me boyo..grins

Brad
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13 posted 2004-01-03 05:50 AM


That's precisely their weakness. It's too easy to substitute profanity for a clearer, less general word.
Severn
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14 posted 2004-01-03 06:48 AM


Linking: /pip/Forum8/HTML/000463.html

due to its relevance. There's some food for thought there..

K

Ron
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15 posted 2004-01-03 09:31 AM


a) As Brad said, Raph, the more meaningS a word has, the less meaning it has. If writing were akin to brain surgery, I'm not sure I would be real impressed by a doctor relying on a Swiss army knife.

b) Pick a less serious topic.

serenity blaze
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16 posted 2004-01-03 11:07 AM


raising my hand...

the more meaningS a word has the less meaning it has?

hmmm...

Not sure I agree. One of the things I love best about the English language is the diversity. I recall a Spanish friend of mine stating that English was the most difficult language he'd encountered because there were simply so many words to convey a single meaning--

i.e., fast---

rapid, speedy, swift, quick, and etc.

Don't you feel part of the beauty of the English language lies in the nuances that such diversity affords?

(and I'm not trying to avoid the topic, for the record, I think with the institution of the Mature Content forums this is really a non-issue now.)

And further, don't we collectively decide what is obscene? Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder isn't offensive language in the EAR?

and...wince, one more thought? Do you think by making certain words taboo we give them more power?

sign me,

confused but stubbornly thinking anyway




Ron
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17 posted 2004-01-03 02:34 PM


You've almost exactly reversed what I said, Karen. You're talking about many different words with a similar meaning, which I agree only adds to the richness of the language. I was talking about a single word with many different, and usually vague, meanings, which only leads to watered down ambiguity.

And, yes, making a word taboo can give it incredible power. But therein lies the paradox of profanity. When that same word becomes part of common speech, and in some cases gets used in every other sentence, it has no power at all. Nada. Zip. Zilch. It's just another cliché to avoid.

serenity blaze
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18 posted 2004-01-03 03:48 PM


grin.

I just read it again, and sure 'nuff, I did do just that very thing.

I'll go take a nap quietly now.



sheesh. Another attack of the killer brain fog.

and the power and taboo of words was covered nicely by hush in another thread, I discovered--grumble--SHE never seems to suffer from brain fog...




Brad
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19 posted 2004-01-04 06:38 PM


You know, if you think about it, isn't profanity a form of thought control?

They are perfect forms of Orwellian doublethink and the easiest way to stop discussion is to employ them.

Aenimal
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20 posted 2004-01-04 08:30 PM


I disagree, the use of the clearer, less general word can often be sterile especially if you're trying to convey any realism or raw emotion. God, can you imagine how horrid New York cop movies would be?

I can think of a billion more serious topics, this is actually incredibly minor, a simple matter of taste except to puritans or watchdogs who think they know what's best and speak for all society.

Brad
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21 posted 2004-01-04 10:18 PM


quote:
a simple matter of taste except to puritans or watchdogs who think they know what's best and speak for all society.


That's not my point. My point is taste (which is never simple by the way). Move beyond your simple dichotomy and ask yourself which is better writing: Pacino's "Scarface" or the conversations between Jackson and Travolta in "Pulp Fiction". Both use profanity, yet the claims to realism and raw emotion doesn't make one less humorous in an unintended way, and the profanity in the other isn't really essential to what stands out.

Profanity can be used, I've tried it, Bernstein's used it effectively (so has Brian Long by the way), but most of the time it's a crutch because you can't think of a better word or an attempt to follow a misguided theory about realism and raw emotion.

Nine times out of ten, it's just bad writing.


Aenimal
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22 posted 2004-01-04 11:07 PM


Brad I agree with you for the most part. The line you singled out wasn't meant for you
Brad
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23 posted 2004-01-05 12:24 PM


Oh okay. Guess I'm being a little sensitive.
TwistedKnickers
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24 posted 2004-01-05 09:15 AM


I have my own views on the topic which are clearly stated in hush's thread, but perhaps !&$##@! could replace the *****, as one can retrieve much more "raw emotion" from it. **** just seems so $%^&^$#! lifeless, don't you think??  hehe

Cat  

Poetry is the sculpting of words. We ALL start with a lump of clay.

Ron
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25 posted 2004-01-05 11:00 AM


If there were any words, offensive or otherwise, capable of conveying raw emotion, there would be no need for writers. I could just say "blankety-blank" and you would know precisely what I was feeling. We could just shorthand everything.

Interestingly, actors are specifically taught to not depend on their dialog to convey emotion. After all, if the words alone were enough, there would be no need to act, and no difference between one performance and another. Emotion must be drawn from a deeper well.

Shorthand is just another way of saying cliché.

Aenimal
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26 posted 2004-01-05 09:35 PM


I think there are some words capable of that raw emotion. I could tell you for example that I dislike my boss because the way he treats us leaves something to be desired. Or I can say my boss is an A$$#@%@ and not only convey the same message but the raw emotion of hate.

And while actors are taught not to depend on the dialogue for emotion they still draw from the image or feel presented? What works better Al Pacino working with dialogue from a Pauly Shore script or from Coppola and Puzo?

Ron
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27 posted 2004-01-06 12:00 PM


Pacino would probably do well with a phone book. I'm not sure, though, whether that's more or less compelling than Pauly Shore?

As to your Boss examples, in my opinion neither of them conveys emotion, raw or otherwise. All you've done is supply observations, leaving the reader free to feel what they will. Dickens didn't tell us Scrooge was an A$$#@%@, he showed us. I suspect if you really look at it objectively, Raph, you'll realize that either of your observations would inevitably reveal more about the narrator than about the boss?



Aenimal
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28 posted 2004-01-06 03:08 PM


Watching paint dry is more compelling than Pauly Shore..

I suspect if you really look at it objectively, Ron, you'll find you're much to rigid on the topic of swearing. It's not a reflection on the narrator, but a reflection of just how much they may hate their boss. They don't convey raw emotion?! Try stubbing your toe in the middle of the night, what are the most immediate words that come to mind? Is it because you're lazy? No, it's because they suit the frustration and raw emotion at the pain you're feeling.

You don't appreciate the art of the swear word. Vulgarity aside there is a beauty to them. They all share a unique structure in harsh consonants, forceful vowels. They're also poetic when used properly. After all what are swear words but metaphor and allegory? I agree with Brad, 9 times out of 10 it's simply bad writing, but your assesment of swear words and their usage is a matter of judgment. We obviously disagree.

Ron
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29 posted 2004-01-06 06:58 PM


I think you're comparing apples and oranges, Raph. I spent several years in construction as a kid, four years in the Marine Corps, and trust me, when I stub my toe in the middle of the night, I don't yell "Sugar." Swearing can be a way of venting emotion, in the same way crying is. Releasing emotion is healthy, though I personally draw the line at imposing my release on others. I don't break down crying in the grocery store, even if it might make me feel better, and if I stub my toe in church I'll probably (hopefully!) refrain from anything harsher than Sugar.

All of which has absolutely NOTHING to do with good writing. Metaphor and allegory only lead to good writing when they are good metaphor and allegory. Clichés don't cut it.

There are only two instances where I think swearing can be woven into the written word with effect, and both of those require unusual skill.

Some very good writers have used profanity to purposely offend the reader, both to get their attention and to make a point (has to be both). Most who try this path fail miserably, ending up with nothing more than a venting of their own emotion. That's cool for them, but I'm not going to spend my time or money watching someone stub their toe in the middle of the night.

Other good writers have successfully put profanity into the mouths of their characters as a way of telling the reader something important about that character. This is exactly the same thing as using dialect to reveal character, and it carries exactly the same dangers. Unless you have the skill of a Mark Twain, you're far more likely to destroy a story than to elevate it. Whether it's dialect, stuttering or swearing, reality can't be merely mimicked, but must be reflected and focused. It can be incredibly powerful stuff, but there have been only a handful of writers in all of history who could do it successfully.

Any time someone wants to prove me wrong, they have a whole Mature Content section with which to work their literary wonders.

Aenimal
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30 posted 2004-01-06 10:07 PM


No I'm not comparing apples to oranges Ron. A word is a word is a word profane or not. Word usage is a matter of taste. Someone may like to use the word silly where you might use the word ludicrous or ridiculous. It's a matter of choice and style.

As we stated earlier 9 times out of ten it's simply bad writing. This still leaves one in ten. So the possibility remains that someone on this site, given the chance, may have the skill to pull it off. Of course seeing as few of us are professional writers there's a trial and error process involved.

Unless we can have the skill of Mark Twain? Now who's comparing apples to oranges? If you're going to use that logic that then you may as well state that unless anyone here has the skill of Blake, Neruda or Bukowski they should be limited from using words, metaphor or allegory? Should we then block certain poets from posting and who will make that judgment?

The forum is about learning that skill, including the use of slang, dialect or profanity. You seem to be harping on the words themselves rather than their use. They can be used, it does take skill.

As for the Mature Forum, there still seems to be system censoring and word blocking imposed on starting posts, at least, the last time I posted in there. I've brought this to the attention of a moderator but have yet to see a follow-up or action.

Ron
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31 posted 2004-01-06 10:48 PM


LOL. If someone wants to use silly instead of ludicrous, I don't have any problem at all with their choice of style. If they want to use silly as a verb, on the other hand, well, frankly, that's just plain silly.

The language restrictions in MC, and which forums are or aren't free of them, are posted in Grok This, Raph.

Aenimal
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since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350
the ass-end of space
32 posted 2004-01-07 12:13 PM


Not sure what that had to do with anything but bravo, you have a masterful grasp of the english language.

The description of Insight states..'This genre is often angry or ironic, with the author's anger expressed in adult language"
but then in Grok we're told "Insight - no profane words but hard edged poetry about life."

Please explain the difference between adult language and profane? And how a forum which claims to be hard-edged refuses to allow 'profane' language?

Also considering its a supposedly mature forum why is there no profanity allowed in GROK either. Not that it's enforced except in starting posts. Actually nevermind, it's become evident that boring,conservative rigid thinking is the rule.


Ron
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33 posted 2004-01-07 03:03 AM


The language restrictions in MC, and which forums are or aren't free of them, are posted in Grok This, Raph. The reasons are in there, too.

Like it or not, believe it or not, words have the power to offend just as they have the power to enlighten. You might think you should have the freedom to yell racial slurs in the middle of Harlem or Chinatown, but I honestly wouldn't recommend it in practice. You may not care if you offend others, and may take no note of the hurt and anger you provoke, but others do care. Sure, you have the freedom to write any way you want. And, we have the freedom to refuse to listen.

Have you read Charles Dickinson lately? Melville? Kafka, Hesse or Hemingway? You'll find little or no profanity in the works of most great writers. Do you really think Orwell or Huxley were guilty of boring, conservative, rigid thinking? Rigidity isn't defined by the words you use, but if anything, by the words you think you must use.

When fifteen or so people banded together almost five years ago to start these forums, it was explicitly because we were tired of the shock-and-awe garbage being dumped so prodigiously everywhere else on the Internet. We, as a group, defined the Guidelines we felt comfortable supporting. I suspect some of those discussions are still floating around in early threads somewhere.

For a few months, the forums were invitation only, with only a handful of like-minded individuals joining the original group. When we decided to open our doors, we put up big signs all over the place as to our expectations. Those who want shock-and-awe have lots and lots of places on the Internet to find it, but we have always been very, very clear that this will never be one of them. We don't force anyone to join, we simply offer an alternative to those who want it. If our standards don't match closely enough with theirs, they have plenty of other choices.

We don't try to be all things to all people. Not five years ago. Not today.

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350
the ass-end of space
34 posted 2004-01-07 06:55 PM


Ron I did see the guidelines in Grok and quoted from it in my reply. Thus the inquiry as to how adult language differs from profanity. As for people being offended by language isn't that the point of the mature section? The easily offended have a the choice of keeping to the host of other sections.

A great list Ron, and yes I have read them. Have you read Solzhenitzyn. Revolutionary writers like Hunter S. Thompson? How about the newest crop of authors Chuck Palahniuk? Irvine Welsh? Joe Conelly? All of them have used profanity for realism without hindering their work.

I've conceded that it takes talent and that most of the time it is poor writing. Reading any of the above authors you'll find the opposite side of the coin. Brilliant, raw honest writing. I can see that it's incredibly difficult for you to accept or concede to anything but your own opinion here, so there's really no point in arguing it further.

P.S. I guarantee that Hemingway swore and I'm sure some of it was over the dinner table

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (01-07-2004 11:16 PM).]

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
35 posted 2004-01-08 03:32 PM


Aenimal,

I think you're asking two different things here.

One, can profanity work? Yes, but rarely.

Two, therefore, why not allow it on these boards?

Two doesn't follow from one. And in fact, profanity leads to a muddled distinction between literature and, what, muck. Take the Supreme Court decision that allowed things like "Lady Chatterley's Lover" and "Howl" to be sent through the mail. Immediately, pornographers jumped on that to claim that what they were selling was art and the decision, more or less, backed them up.

The same thing happens on the internet. Either you have mothers or watchdogs to clean up the muck or you have . . . editors who choose the art. Nobody here really wants the responsibility of being an editor (Yes, taste is being avoided), but a certain common sense approach has led inevitably to a standard rule, no profanity -- period.

Does that mean we might lose out on a very good poem with profanity in it? Sure.

Does that mean you or somebody else can't post it somewhere else? No.

I just don't see anything you're talking about happening anywhere on the internet. In practice, you must have a close group who understand each other intuitively, a group of people who will clean up the poetry, or a group that edits as a result of taste. Otherwise, I don't think you'll find a particularly hospitable place for people who are interested in writing what they want to write -- or for honing what they write.

Interestingly, I think this is a little more than a minor point. I'd like to see a discussion on capping the beginning letter of each line reach this level of discussion.      

Ron
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since 1999-05-19
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36 posted 2004-01-08 04:21 PM


quote:
I'd like to see a discussion on capping the beginning letter of each line reach this level of discussion.

And punctuation!

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350
the ass-end of space
37 posted 2004-01-08 04:29 PM


You're right Brad two different topics (I'm multitasking ) the latter was only brought up after Ron stated that:
Any time someone wants to prove me wrong, they have a whole Mature Content section with which to work their literary wonders

In discussing the first topic I've conceded that indeed, most often it doesn't work. Reading my last post you'll see that I've named some brilliant authors, however, who have made it work. Of course it's a matter of skill but then all good writing is. Which ties in with the second topic.

Most of us here are not professionals. That's why we post here. It's why we encourage critiques and have the critical analysis forum. To hone our craft. If the purpose of the forum is to help guide members in all aspects of writing then this includes the use of language. Profane or not.

You've mentioned that though rarely, it is possible for profanity to find itself into good writing. So allow the writers to use these words(in the appropriate forums) and then critique it accordingly and help them use it properly.

Heller used goddamn throughout Catch-22. I've seen it on these pages many times. But surely this is a curse, and likely offensive to some? It just happens to be more socially acceptable than other curse words, at least to certain people which brings me back to my point of usage being a matter of taste. And the cycle continues.

All good writing needs skill, this particular style of writing may take a little more as it is rarer. Thus one should have a place to hone said skills rather than simply being censored and judged.

Shrugs..what more can I say? I have yet to sleep so I'm off to slip into a partial coma.

Ron
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since 1999-05-19
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Michigan, US
38 posted 2004-01-08 05:08 PM


Raph, writers are allowed to use ANY words they want in the appropriate forum. All they have to do is go Behind Closed Doors and they'll find no censoring of language at all (though we will never have a forum where advocating harm to another is allowed).

In at least one sense, people are also allowed to use offensive language in any of our forums. It hasn't happened a lot, and there's been no need of it since opening MC, but there have been past instances where we've fought to allow profanity because it was integral and necessary to an exceptional piece of writing. I suspect Heller would manage to squeak by should the occasion ever arise. And if the writer is not as good as Heller? As with all things in life, they then have to accept personal responsibility for their failed attempt to exceed their skill. The first ten or twenty times that happens, they get a polite email telling them their post has been moved to one of our MC forums. On exceedingly rare occasions, where they've failed time after time after time, they eventually have to take responsibility for faulty judgment. That has never happened, though, without LOTS of previous warnings.

I applaud and support anyone who really wants to learn. In too many cases, though, that's not really their goal.

Aenimal
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since 2002-11-18
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the ass-end of space
39 posted 2004-01-09 01:27 AM


Great, except that Behind Closed Doors
states 'Past innuendo and allusion, lies an adult world of raw passions and power' which s fine for erotica but not exactly where one might want to post say, a political poem, or an exploration on abuse where one might want to use adult language. These are topics better suited to say...insight.

Ron
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40 posted 2004-01-09 01:06 PM


I guess if someone can't write about politics or abuse without using the single word variant disallowed in Insights, they have a real conundrum. It does, however, remove a conundrum for the many who find that particular word inordinately offensive, and that's a tradeoff I can live with.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350
the ass-end of space
41 posted 2004-01-09 04:08 PM


What I find disturbing is that you don't see a problem with this? On the one hand you say go ahead, if you wish to use that language you can try it in mature but then restrict it to erotica. Worse is that you judge and condemn people for using or even wanting to use 'offensive' language. I suggest you reword the description to Insight,
Insights
Much of the richest poetry in the world centers on either very mature themes or the mature handling of more innocent themes. This genre is often angry or ironic, with the author's anger expressed in adult language. You may find sexual references, but the poetry isn't about sex. It's about the World as seen through the eyes of an adult. Poetry and Prose.

and while you're at rename the Mature part of the forum.

Ron
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42 posted 2004-01-09 07:43 PM


Nope, I don't have a problem with it at all. Adult doesn't mean anarchy, and freedom doesn't mean the right to impose one's offensiveness on others.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350
the ass-end of space
43 posted 2004-01-09 11:42 PM


LOL ANARCHY!!? Using adult language in a restricted forum (one that states in its introduction that adult language is acceptable)is anarchy?

You continue to either ignore or wave away evidence that displays a discrepancy with telling people to prove you wrong in the Mature forums and then restricting them to erotica.

Or worse, the error in stating "with the author's anger expressed in adult language" and then blocking said language out.

Is it really that difficult to concede anything in an argument? I'd curse out of frustration but I wouldn't want to cause a full scale riot. So I give in 'nuff said.

Cheers.


Ron
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44 posted 2004-01-10 12:47 PM


quote:
… and then blocking said language out.

Why equate adult language to a single word? Do you really know any adults with so limited a vocabulary? (That's a rhetorical question, because if anyone does know such an individual I'd rather not hear about them.)

The description of a forum is exactly that, and nothing more. Our Open forum doesn't say "For sharing and enjoying all the many beauties and wisdoms … except for those glorifying harm to a human being." Descriptions are not all-inclusive. Just because we don't put all the rules in the forum description is no reason to argue those rules shouldn't exist.

And yes, advocating no rules, no limitations, and no responsibility is pretty much a workable definition of anarchy. Defining an audience as adult, rather than family-oriented, certainly changes the standards but just as certainly doesn't eliminate them. Our MC forums fall under different restrictions because people who want adult fare should still have the option of avoiding what many find overtly offensive. They should be able to visit the bedroom or talk around the table in the kitchen without worrying whether the person there before them thought they were in the bathroom and forgot to flush.

I've already conceded that a few talented writers know how to use profanity, and I'd be more than happy to concede other points as well. You just haven't made very many of them, Raph. I also suspect you haven't voiced your real concern yet either.



Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
45 posted 2004-01-10 01:57 PM


If you accomodate profanity for "intellectual" and "artistic" control how do you block out profanity coming out of the same rashness and perversity, the same that makes people curse and use it anywhere?  How do you draw that line, when the aspects will commingle?   So many artists protest "intellectual" and "artistic" stability but then you look at much of the artwork and the curses and profanity seem completly mad.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350
the ass-end of space
46 posted 2004-01-10 03:49 PM


It's so incredibly obvious that This genre is often angry or ironic, with the author's anger expressed in adult language refers to swearing. But rather than concede there's an error or that the description needs revision you stubbornly assert "Descriptions are not all-inclusive."

Where exactly do I advocate no rules, no limitations, and no responsibility? I'm talking about the use of colourful language in an adult themed mature forum. OF COURSE there should be limitations.

If a writer is using adult language in an obvious attempt to offend, outrage or slur than by all means censor, edit and punish the culprit.

Conversely here's an example. In an emotional song of hope U2's Bono(a brilliant writer) uses 'don't let the bastards grind you down' (in reference to a latin saying nolite tes bastardes carborundum.Mind my latin, it may be off).

I don't think many would find this offensive especially in its emotional context and if it were in the appropriate forum. The problem with MC, again, is that in its current scheme that kind of writing would be limited to erotica whereas this poem is clearly an angry/ironic insight into life.

As for having an alterior motive or concern I haven't. But sadly I suspect that you do. Or have something you'd like to say. I've always appreciated the site and the work you do to keep it up. But sadly ego, stubborness and conservatism can turn gold into lead. Say what you will, I give in and would rather leave this thread before things get worse.

Ron
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47 posted 2004-01-10 05:06 PM


Maybe I'm guilty of assuming you know more than you do, Raph. Have you read the threads in Grok about the language expectations in MC? Why do you believe "that kind of writing would be limited to erotica" when Insights is clearly an ideal platform for it?
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350
the ass-end of space
48 posted 2004-01-10 07:23 PM


(Edited for personal attack)

..whereas this poem is clearly an angry/ironic insight into life

The point WASthat it would be better suited to Insights. However, because of language restrictions (assuming bastard is considered profane)this or similar writing would be limited to Behind Closed Doors (or perhaps adult)which is essentially erotica though it clearly belongs under the Insight forum as it's described.

But I'll shut up seeing as me don't know too much 'specially compared to y'all. Take care

Whatsoever sayeth Ron, so shall it be..

[This message has been edited by Alicat (01-10-2004 07:34 PM).]

Alicat
Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094
Coastal Texas
49 posted 2004-01-10 07:40 PM


Discussion is fine. Arguing is fine. Personal attacks are not fine, nor will they be tolerated. Please exercise a little bit more discretion when formulating your responses.

Thank you.
Alicat
Alley/Lounge Moderator

Ron
Administrator
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50 posted 2004-01-10 08:32 PM


Ali, you're just doing your job, but I think people need to be given a little more leeway when the object of their criticism is me. Where everyone else here is protected by the rules, there would be the inevitable perception that I am hiding behind them. In this case, I don't think it matters one way or the other, but others will read the thread and people should feel free to disagree with me. Even strenuously so.

Raph, it sounds like we both made assumptions.

You assumed what was and wasn't allowed in Insights, and I assumed you took my advice way back 20-some posts ago to actually find out what was and wasn't allowed before offering an opinion.

Suffice it to say, we were both wrong. You're arguing for what already exists. I guess it won't be the last time I waste time on someone, though.

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