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Stop the war Mr. President
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Stop the war Mr. President |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia 
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Stop the war Mr. President. This is an immoral and unjust war. Your power is based on a rigged election -- depriving the voters of a chance to choose their own government. You use the military to impose your will on the people of Iraq. Your policies are responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent men, women, and children. And it's all about oil. It's because you want to control the oil of the Middle East. President Saddam Hussein... stop this war now. |
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KristieSue
since 2003-01-31
Posts 1460PA, US |
heh..ya got me...tricked me :-) Ditto! Failure isn't failure if a lesson from it is learned ~ KS |
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Crazy Eddie Member
since 2002-09-14
Posts 178 |
Just as a side issue, do you believe that if Saddam and his regime upped sticks and left Iraq the war would be called off and all the soldiers brought home? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Do I think the war would stop? Yes -- but that doesn't mean there wouldn't be residual resistance in the form of terrorism. Do I think the troops would be called home? Not precisely. The mission of the troops would shift from offense to the beginning of the rebuilding of Iraq and providing humanitarian support. So, in that light -- some troops would be called home. [This message has been edited by Local Rebel (03-30-2003 11:39 AM).] |
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Jason Lyle Senior Member
since 2003-02-07
Posts 1438With my darkling |
Lol, you got me too, I was already forming a rebuttal halfway through reading.  Jason |
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rosepetals25
since 2000-05-31
Posts 3076PA |
LOL sneaky! I was also forming alllll kinds of thoughts before my eyes hit that last line *chuckles*  Tara "in my field of paper flowers |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Well, since it takes more than one to start a fight, it'll take more than one to stop. I suggest both Presidents put their guns down, and let the children experience Life as it was meant to be. |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
Add me to the list of The "Gotten Ones"... It's kinda hard to do it too... My hat is off to you!!! lol |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Well I suppose I'm glad people are getting a chuckle out of the surprise ending -- that is sort of human nature to laugh when you're tricked -- but that's not really what I wanted to do here. Hopefully this mirror can serve as a tool to both sides of the issue. Midnitesun -- I have to disagree with your premise that it takes two to start a fight -- there are perfectly innocent victims all around us all the time. If your premise were true then we'd have to say rape victims were 'asking for it'. It just doesn't hold up. |
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Toerag Member Ascendant
since 1999-07-29
Posts 5622Ala bam a |
LR....get on your Harley, I'll hop on my Norton...lets go get them..ya wanna?...(I'll supply the jack...)....Well done post Reb....the "Two to make a fight"...comment is interesting however....if they meant "one to cause a reason"...maybe....I remember my father telling me once..."If a town has one lawyer, he'll go broke, it they have two..they'll both get rich"....doesn't have anything to do with this, but I like it anyhow?.....Hope you're doing well... |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Ah, Toe, you always get right to the heart of the matter.....even if nobody knows what the matter is. Can I come, too? I have a Schwinn - 26 speed! |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Interesting. Which, I wonder, should be more bothersome to people? That President Bush made his own decisions and must ultimately bear the responsibility for those decisions? Or that the President of the United States is a puppet, merely reacting without thought or reason to a madman? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Well, Ron, I've never heard of anyone bothered by your second example....actually I've never even heard of anyone saying it. Is that your creation, perchance? |
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KristieSue
since 2003-01-31
Posts 1460PA, US |
I thank God daily for a President who trusts those with him, God, and his judgement enough to make decisions that affect the entire Nation. I would hold him at more fault if he was a puppet who did what those who screamed more loudly wanted.... Failure isn't failure if a lesson from it is learned ~ KS |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Mike, there seems to be a recurring theme, here and in other threads, that the sole responsibility for this war lies with Saddam Hussein. My point was, if that contention is taken literally, then the United States is simply reacting and being manipulated. I believe people always have choices. Bush decided when, where, how, and how much. Ultimately, he even decided "if," though many may feel that decision was inescapable. To think choices weren't made and responsibilities weren't assumed is to give way too much power to Iraq. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Ok, Ron. I'm simply having a hard time with your example. Your question appeared to me by the way it is written is whether or not the two examples you gave would be bothersome, not whether or not they were true. I don't see how reacting to another person's actions needs to be without thought or reason, as your second example seems to infer. Of course Bush made his own decision - and it was done as a reaction to Hussein's actions...and I believe it was done with thought and reason. If that is to be called giving Iraq too much power by forcing Bush to act, then we would have to say that anyone who fights back against someone threatening them is giving their adversary too much power. I doubt the strings Hussein wanted to pull were the ones that would have Bush attack Iraq. He was having too much fun pulling the strings of the UN and getting away with it for so long. I would guess he assumed he could continue doing that. He miscalculated... If I misconstrued your examples, I apologize.. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Mike, cause and effect chains go back to the beginning of time and everything ever done was a reaction to something else. No, I'm not suggesting that means a reaction is without thought or reason. On the contrary, my hyperbole was to suggest it can't be without thought or reason. Yet, that very much seems to be what people are suggesting when they repeatedly say, "It was Saddam's choice." Yes, Saddam made a choice. But so did we. BTW, it is frankly too early to know if Saddam miscalculated. I think you are making the assumption that he didn't want this war? If the war against Iraq should become a war between Islam and America, between the East and the West, Saddam Hussein will have gotten exactly what he wanted twelve years ago and presumably what he still wants today. I don't think that will happen. But I long ago discovered that capturing your opponent's Queen should only be celebrated AFTER the game is over. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Yes, Ron, I have had those same thoughts also. It is possible that Saddam DID want this war...he's getting old and it would be quite a legacy to be a founder of an Islam-America conflict of such a magnitude...secure his place in history very nicely alongside of Bin Laden. I do feel, however, that his sons have a very different view. Iraq has been their own private playground with unlimited riches where THEY make the rules for their entire lives. They are next in line and they have many years left to enjoy the unbridled power daddy has enjoyed for so many years. I doubt seriously they want to see their Disneyworld taken away from them for the sake of going down in a blaze of glory. I think we have a couple of very miffed Muslims there! It wouldn't surprise me to see them turn him in for the sake of salvaging some kind of future for themselves. There are still many moves to be made in this chess game...that's for sure. Sadly, as it is war, the pawns are always the first to be sacrificed... |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
Unfortunately, it looks as if the war is actually shaping up to be a warof religions. With the Arab nations putting their spin on the war for the world to see, and calling us infidels, and such, and the muslem world being called to war against the agressors. Adding those facts to the one that there are Arabs from all over the region joining the fight as suicide attackers... It leads one to wonder about the long term possibilities that are going to occur with all of these "faithful" fighting and willing to die to destroy the "infidels". Imagine all the People living life in peace... |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Could be, Ringo, but don't believe everything you read. In my opinion the majority of the arab nation governments are secretly in favor of the coalition ousting Hussein. They allow the citizens to protest as an escape valve, to let off steam, and it makes the gov't look as though they share the same thoughts. I doubt seriously that another Arab or Muslim government will officially decare war on the coalition. As far as the 4000 suicide bombers on the way, I don't know. I find it unlikely but, if it is that way I agree with Patton when he told his troops - "The enemy wants to be martyrs for their cause. Your job is to help them achieve their goal." The Egyptian president said this morning that this action will create a hundred terrorists. There have always been a hundred terrorists. It's just that, before Bin Laden, none of them had the resources to do anything on a large scale. I expect to see a lot of protesting, screaming and flag-burning but I don't see much in the way of active participation by other Muslim countries. Damn, I hope I'm right!! |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Well no... Saddam didn't want this war. He's not Osama Bin Laden. He's in this pickle because he -- um -- invaded Kuwait.... None of this played out like he expected it would. He didn't need virgins in paradise -- he had all of em he could rape in Iraq. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Buzz -- let's go -- you got a tow line you can throw to Deer sos he can keep up? (toss a little jack in his nehi too) |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: You sure? There are few things more dangerous than assuming your enemy is a fool. Especially when he has repeatedly demonstrated otherwise by surviving all his enemies. Unlike Balladeer, I don't think Saddam is looking for a blaze of glory. Shoot, he's not that much older than Mike or I, and it would certainly take more than glory to make me start digging my own grave. Saddam Hussein is an egomaniac who has been forced, for decades, to stagnate. I don't care what he has, or how enviable his life looks from the outside, the death of ambition is intolerable for a man like that. Absolute power? Not as long as he is confined by borders. Saddam Hussein has always believed the Arab world would rally behind him in any confrontation between East and West. Remember the scuds he hurled at Israel twelve years ago? Do you think he expected to seriously hurt them? Or just piss 'em off? How differently would that war have ended had the enemies of his enemies became his friends? What might yet happen if civilian casualties are seen, by other nations, as unacceptable or even vindictive? This is a man whose insanity is only exceeded by his ambition, and his ambition is to unite all of the Middle East under his own rule. Does that all sound foolish because everyone knows he's going to soon die? Tell that to Bin Laden. There are probably a thousand justifiable reactions one can display against Saddam Hussein. Laughter and ridicule isn't one of them. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Did I laugh? Saddam thought we didn't care. That's why he went into Kuwait. He thought he had the green light. Up until that point he'd been the darling of the west. Did you forget that? I'm not sure about the rest of what you wrote because you seem to be assuming that you understand Saddam while telling me that I can't. Sorry Ron -- you've spun into a circle -- that's not like you. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
I didn't say you couldn't, LR. Just that you apparently don't. Not if you think this is about virgins or rape. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
How could anyone who read what I wrote possibly think that Ron? quote: Where do you get that from what I wrote? I said he didn't want this war....at least not on these terms -- he planned on taking on the west -- that's a given -- but from a position of power after he'd forged a base in the desert -- not from a box hemmed in by no-fly zones. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
You may be right, LR. Certainly, your guess is just as valid as mine. Still, I would much rather overestimate an enemy than underestimate one. Saddam Hussein is sociopathic and insane. He ain't stupid. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote:  (picking myself up off the floor and checking the calendar to see if it was April Fools day yet anywhere when this was posted....rubbing my eyes... and looking again....)Um... something must be wrong with my computer because this has Ron's name next to it and he's saying I may be right... maybe he's just trying to throw me off my game....??? Where dear sir... did I under or overestimate anyone? I don't recall giving anone any odds on anything here. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Oh.. and the actual Dubyaism is 'misunderestimate'  |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
I don't speak that language, LR. A friend called during the President's last speech and asked if I was watching. "Nope," I said. "I'll wait for the part where an aide explains what he really meant to say." |
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