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This Place...
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This Place... |
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Words_of_Glitter Member
since 2000-10-25
Posts 90USA |
Has anyone else ever realized that there is barely any real talent on this website...that hundreds of people post here and possibly 1 out of 200 poems are even worth reading...that the more a poem sucks, the more replies it gets...that half the members can't even spell, much less rhyme or be creative...that this poetry board sucks possibly more than any other poetry board out there, but everyone visits it frankly because, everyone visits it? I bid farewell to all of you. Good luck on your continuing efforts to not post the crappiest poems I have possibly ever read. "Time really does fly by and no one knows where it goes, so if you have something to say or do, say or do it now." |
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1slick_lady Member Ascendant
since 2000-12-22
Posts 6088standing on a shadow's lace |
well thank you glad you enjoyed my poetry (sticks and stones)...ROFLMAO...helen ps. darn i guess i'll have to stop writing now [This message has been edited by 1slick_lady (12-17-2002 02:08 PM).] |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
As this itself is not a poem, and seems a little volatile, I'll move it to the Alley. Thanks for your thoughts. |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
Interesting comments. I am not sure what your standards for talent or for poetry are, but obviously they are not met here. Well... I wish you the best in finding someplace that suites your idea of what good poetry is. I do find it unusual.. that rather than just leave because the place has no talent or real poetry....you chose to tell everyone else in a rather inflamatory way about how bad the place is. Makes me wonder what sort of hurt or slight you experienced here to make you so angry and to want to lash out at the people here. I guess that is none of my business...and I don't want to make it mine. I am simply amazed at the levels of anger and imature response that can come from small slights or inflated egos... Best of luck to you... do hope you find that place... |
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Miah Senior Member
since 2002-08-26
Posts 1062Pennsylvania |
Hmmm, well. To each their own.  Personally, I find this place one of the kindest places out there. The friendships that grow within these blue walls are boundless. Sorry you missed out.  |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
after a little research, i am left with a phrase: "Those in glass houses shouldn't cast stones." And I'm sure the "1" out of 200 is mine, right?  |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
Christopher...did the same research..but wasn't going there with my comment...just too easy... ( chuckling) |
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1slick_lady Member Ascendant
since 2000-12-22
Posts 6088standing on a shadow's lace |
no guys sorry to disappoint you but Her's was the 1 out of 200...we just didn't notice it...tapping my foot and sighing for slighting another hmmmmmmmm [This message has been edited by 1slick_lady (12-17-2002 03:04 PM).] |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
Well... I do miss a few here and there... I read most all... don't always comment...and some..well some I never make it all the way through... I stand by my earlier statement... It was just too easy to go there... |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
I apologize though - It was meant in a teasing manner, but looking at it now, I can see how it could easily be misinterpreted. See where my darn sense of humor gets me??? |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
In addition, I think I'm gonna do some copying and pasting (because I really don't want to have to type it out again. )- - - - - Personally, I don't find this insulting. You'd find me much more upset if I thought everyone thought everything here was wonderful and perfect. Diversity is not only necessary, but good. Imagine how much less the world (and poetry) would be, if you didn't have the bad to compare the good to. If everyone wrote "good" poetry, there would be no room for improvement. Not ironically, I'm not too far from agreeing with this person. Subjectively, most of us appreciate the poetry here because we've developed relationships with the poets, because we ourselves are poets, or because we can see potential in many of the works. Objectively though, most of the poetry here isn't very good. But the thing is, is that it doesn't have to be. Because - in the time I've been here, I've seen many poets who started out really bad raise the bar a bit and grow to become better. There are several whom I think have a good chance to be great poets given time and effort. But I can say that, because I know I'm one of the many who still has a very long way to go before being a truly good poet. And I'm cool with that - as long as I'm growing, I still have a chance. I think this person's mistake is overlooking the potential and foregoing the chance for betterment. |
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LCBS Senior Member
since 2001-11-29
Posts 532Connecticut |
Yesterday there were 268 active threads, if only one of them was a "good poem," then so be it. Thats 365 good poems a year, and thats fine with me. As for the other 97,455 poems...they are working their way to being that "good poem." And Id like to think thats what this site is all about. Learning, working, improving, and then helping the newcomers to learn, work, and improve. Myself, I haven't made it that far yet, but I'm working on it...and thats more satisfying then 1000000000000000 "good poems." ~Lisa |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I wasn't offended by this either. I wasn't even offended by the thread that was removed. *chuckle* I have said far worse to myself than that. *shrug* But then again, my favorite t-shirt has a target on it too. I'm kinda quirky that way... Peace, good people. |
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Miah Senior Member
since 2002-08-26
Posts 1062Pennsylvania |
Okay, Not all the poetry here is good. Mine is probably one of them. I write what I feel, if it's good it's good if it's not, sigh, Oh'well. better luck next time.My point being is, if you want perfect poetry, then buy a poetry book. I did not know that this site was for "perfect poetry only" but instead for posting your emotions, learning from others and growing as a person and writer. If you don't like the site just leave, why post something and state you hate the site and almost all the poetry sucks. If you don't like it leave and go somewhere else. I read more then I post. If I say it is "good" to someone or "good write" it must have touched me in someway, I try to find the beauty in it. I also feel that replying to a poem not only tells the person that you support their creativeness but keeps them writing and striving to do even better. I like a lot of what I read, even if in "poetry" terms it may not be the correct format, to me, it touched me or reached me in some way. Everyone has a right to what they feel, this post was not upsetting. I just diden't see the need for it. If I diden't like it here I would go somewhere else, simple as that. [This message has been edited by Miah (12-17-2002 03:55 PM).] |
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Moonlight Romeo
since 2001-09-10
Posts 982The heart of you |
I have a question. If this place is so terrible, and you hate it so much, why did you post a poem in Open? Thank you. What light through yon window breaks? It is the east, and Juliet is the sun. |
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Greeneyes 
since 2000-09-09
Posts 9903In Your Poetic Mind |
LMAO Christopher, you thought I had  thoughts.....  Deep inside the stillness |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Thank you for your opinion but I think you're a bit off in your numbers...but then again, what I consider good, you may hate. And what YOU consider good I may read and say 'huh?'. That's life. Take care and if you find a good place I hope you enjoy yourself there.  |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
One out of two hundred? Wow, that's pretty good. Certainly puts us about where everybody else is. |
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Wind
since 2002-10-12
Posts 2981 |
sometimes I agree with this but coommon! I know I am a good poet, and i know so many others with great skills. I would really like to say a lot of rude words, but that would be inapropriate. instead I will say this:  good luck in the real world, because you're gonna need it! Never be normal! |
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clve527 Member
since 2002-07-08
Posts 200 |
Okay since I am already hated in one forum of this site I mine as well spread my wings. First off this person approached this fact in the entirely wrong way, but there is a point to be had here. There are people on this site that have a lot of poetic talent. But I do not think this is the best place to bring growth to that talent. This is probably a great place to nurture self esteem, but I don't see this to be a place for improvement or a place for people that seriously seek improving. Which is fine, more power to you guys for wanting that. Okay so that wasn't his point, his point was that he didn't get responses, but I think this sorta ties in. Or maybe not. May the public flogging begin. And let me get this straight, the way this site is is fine for me. I am just stating a view/opinion. Casey |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
I think if you look at ALL our early work here you'll see we've grown. |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
(chuckling) Casey... you make me laugh... There is so much time to be serious later... loosen up and see past the rules of poetry..the rules of being excellent..and feel the life that is in the words.... HUGS to you.... now go drown in the feelings and words...the snippets of image, the human drama and soul played out before you in imperfect fashion.. |
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Skyfire
since 2000-12-27
Posts 3381Riding |
Casey, you're great "it was cute, it was like he was shy and didn't want to make it too obvious" |
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fractal007 Senior Member
since 2000-06-01
Posts 1958 |
"Good luck on your continuing efforts to not post the crappiest poems I have possibly ever read." And half the members are incapable of using correct grammar too, right? "If history is to change, let it change. If the world is to be destroyed, so be it. If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh" |
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clve527 Member
since 2002-07-08
Posts 200 |
Cpat: From your logic that means that anyone who can feel can write a poem. Then what would be the distinguishing factor between me writing a journal entry and me writing a poem? Line breaks? Rhyming? Poetic devices? All of things are part of the skill behind poetry, no one naturally has a full understanding of them. Which explains the need for learning. Their are plenty of people (on this site) that just want to display their poetry and be told how good it is. And that's fine, more power to those who have that as their only desire. But the problem is it seems that many seem to think that this is an ideal place to learn. If you look around it seems that the majority of people are those that simply want to display their work. How does one cater to those that want to learn? Because I think there are those people here? Is it even possible? You could likely direct my to Critical Analysis, but the fact of the matter is even their it seems like a display case. Let me restate, there isn't anything wrong with that. If all you desire is to display your work, then more power to you. But anyone who has any desire to be a respected published writer needs to have a place where actual learning takes place. Okay I think I'm down rambling for now. Casey *waits patiently for the trout to the face* |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Poetry is defined in the interpretation. |
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Miah Senior Member
since 2002-08-26
Posts 1062Pennsylvania |
I agree with most said here. However, I think you can learn a lot from being here, there is the poetry workshop, English workshop. etc.. Personally, I thought this site was for posting your poetry, (or what you think is poetry) I don't know maybe I shouldn't post poetry here until I learn the proper way.  However, in the mean time I will enjoy reading and talking with all you fine people. ps. Just because a poem is in the correct format, does not mean it's good. Again, I say to each their own [This message has been edited by Miah (12-18-2002 08:27 PM).] |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
(Laughing) Casey.... my you are are serious one aren't you? ... What you say is in many ways true. If your goal is to be a serious published writer, then this may not be the place to hone your skills and to learn. Most people here will never be serious published authors, or funny published authors for that matter. But I have watched as the poetic devices and skill of some here have shown improvement over time and in the process their ability to communicate what is inside enhanced. I have seen people with low self esteem and what you would consider nothing but trite lines, come up with some amazing imagery and metaphor for life. You know what... they learned from that...and the people that read it learned from that... they learned a bit more baout life in some cases...and in others, they learned a bit of technical skill. I applaud serious writers! I applaud people who wish to be serious writers! I never will be. Still, I can get lost in a phrase, enjoy the imagery, and wallow in the emotions. Poetry and I'll use the term losely here as you may not agree it is poetry at all... for the common person... from the common person. Think of it as folk art in a way. I donot compare folk art to classical paintings, yet I see and enjoy the beauty or humor in them. Can you not do the same with poetry? Hugs again... I am not attempting to disuade you from seriously seeking to improve nor am I saying this is the best place for you to improve your many talents. It is a place you can enjoy the beauty of word and emotion shared by people you would never have the opportunity to meet if it were not for poetry. Some I admit ( like me) you might wish you hadn't met... but others..others here.. can and do care personally about you and everyone here.. guess if you never needed a friend that isn't much to say. If you ever have just wanted to talk or vent...or share an idea... and no one was there or they were all too close for you to open up to, then of course it has a value. Some people do those things with words wrapped in a guise called poetry. Some people do it by the book and some like me forget to use basic devices like periods. (laughing)... you have no idea how much in love with words I am ( other than the fact I have rambled on now for far too long) relax once in a while... I'm not here to debate the merits of or even define poetry. I'm here to enjoy the idea of poetry, and hoping others along the way may also learn to do that as well. |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
Oh yeah..I was out of trout... so I though instead since it is the holiday season..I'd only give you a hug.... |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
sigh... "if wishes were fishes mine would smell bad..."  |
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Kielo Senior Member
since 2002-02-11
Posts 1109 |
If wishes were fishes I'd never be hungry. Sick of fish, but never hungry. I know only one thing, and that thing is that I know nothing. |
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Miah Senior Member
since 2002-08-26
Posts 1062Pennsylvania |
Cpat Hair, I love you! You said exactly what I was feeling, only you did it sooo much better. Now I feel like dancing in a medow in my bare feet. [This message has been edited by Miah (12-18-2002 08:55 PM).] |
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clve527 Member
since 2002-07-08
Posts 200 |
I am always serious. I figured since this thread was going to get attention that I mine as well start a discussion. Apparently that wasn't all that desired, so be it. Thank you for the response. Casey [This message has been edited by clve527 (12-18-2002 09:35 PM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
You learn how to write good poetry, not through workshops of CA or any of the above, you don't learn how to write good poetry by discussing linebreaks, or rhyme schemes, or the importance of profound metaphysical metaphorical allegories, you learn how to write good poetry by reading good poetry, by paying attention to what has gone on before you, you learn by being influenced by the tradition. Now, I like to do the things above, but most of that is simply abstractions from the real thing, a kind of reductionist, nuts and bolts attitude, a short cut because you know, the tradition is difficult and I wanna be me kind a, sort a thing. It can help, but it's more of a pointer toward the real thing than the keys to the golden door of goodness. Again, I like to discuss these things, but not because they give me answers to what good poetry is, but because they help me understand the tradition better, they help me see my prejudices and my blind spots (and gives me the choice of holding on to those or to shed them). They help me see the poetry better. There's a comment I've heard bandied about at other websites that I've never quite understood, "For every one poem you write, read a hundred." Well, why not read one good poem a hundred times? Breath it in, attempt to understand it in it's full complexity and perhaps even more importantly in its full possibility, its endless possibility (This is not the same thing as intentional ambiguity). The problem with 'reading a hundred poems' is that, if followed, you'll inevitably feel forced to read poetry and you'll skim and most likely miss the whole point of what makes it good in the first place. My favorite example of this are Ginsberg imitators. He makes poetry look easy but few match his ability at self-irony, probably his strongest selling point if you ask me. Why do they miss it? Because they aren't reading him, they are reading him in order to write poetry themselves. Ezra Pound, speaking of Eliot, once simply responded, "Read him, just read him" and I can't think of any better advice than that. While it seems that I've only convinced myself of this, I still believe that poetry, the genre, is defined by the line break. I believe this because I believe when you break something up into lines, you read it, both physically and mentally, in a different way without them. It actually opens up the possibility of a more concentrated language, a different way of looking at the same words (and of new attention to different words) than would otherwise be the case). But many have confused this idea (many who claim an expertise in the reading and judgement of poetry I might add) with the idea that a good poem is made with line breaks, that a poem, by definition, must be good. This is a silly idea and it misses the whole point of classification. On the other hand, there's no good reason why a journal entry can't also be good, it's exactly the same thing, a confusion of genre distinctions with quality distinctions. I suspect that's why people often write poetry rather than prose, the idea of quality is already embedded in what it is you are doing. That's a mistake. So what's good? I've come up with theories on it, many have, including Ron and Ron and I have said similar things about it, but in the end, it doesn't really matter what theory you espouse so long as you are reading the tradition (I include modern, postmodern, and traditional in this application of tradition) for tradition is not dead, tradition is why you do the things you don't think about (the past is dead). So, what is good? If you're looking for an answer, a student/teacher relationship, there are plenty of other places to go, but I don't find them any more satisfactory than what people say here, "Poetry is subjective, I like what I like." In fact, I think it's simply the same thing with a another different and equally useless word, "Poetry is objective, I like what I like." Neither answers the question, they seem more political attitudes than anything else. Neither points to what I think is the real value of asking the question: What is good poetry? Not what is good poetry to you? Not what is good poetry for professors? Not what is good poetry in order to write good poetry? But what is good poetry? The answer changes because people continue to talk and try to answer the question. It's an infinite conversation. I like being a part of that, not because I think anything I say is significant (significance also changes -- look at Eliot's dominance fifty years ago compared with today.), but because I like doing that. One final comment, the reference to common poetry for common people is a mistake as well. Again, there is no necessary relationship between what is good and what class you are from (or think you are from). Read Derek Atridge's "Poetic Rhythm:An Introduction" for how complex common poetry can get. Of course, there's no reason that complex poetry should necessarily be good, but the subtext above seemed to imply that simplicity was common and complexity was elitist. In a nutshell, most people really prefer to avoid the question (perhaps because it's not a high school math test, perhaps because it's not a question for trivial pursuit?) because, I think, any answer can never be summarized in a poetry handbook or a sound bite, it can only be talked about, it can only be read. Read him (or her), just read. |
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RSWells Member Elite
since 2001-06-17
Posts 2533 |
I'm not going to attack you. You're young. And angry. It's painful to grow and painful to watch time march by as realities onset shows how precious time is. I have hundreds of books of poetry. All kinds. All the Best American Poetry anthologies since 1988. Several Norton anthologies, Beat, Classical and on and on...... I find maybe one of twenty five I like....one of fifty that move me. (Really wanna go balooey read Ploughshares) And these are published poets! We gather here for diverse reasons. Few are here to be spanked or feel shame over their lack of academic accreditation. Here we don't sadden to letters of rejection, or rise to the bait of jealousy, we neither seek hot breathed one-upmanship nor revel in the stumble of our neighbor's unlettered renderings. This is escape from mundane workdays or depressed circumstances, it's the safety of the anonymous internet for those who feel voiceless or lonely. It's a friendly gathering of just folks who will most likely never meet and common ground for we who feel better after-words. I hope you do stay and write. I think you'll find you are forgiven. |
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Kit McCallum
Administrator
Member Laureate
since 2000-04-30
Posts 14774Ontario, Canada |
There are plenty of other poetry sites out there on the internet that will be more than happy to welcome those poets who wish only critical feedback and diehard dictatorial learning. What I've found for myself, here at Passions … is the "best" of the learning experience. What I've found, is that here at Passions, even if you are not part of the Workshop or CA forums specifically, you can still enthusiastically and literally "learn" via "osmosis". You read, you post, you make friends … your read their poems, you absorb other's talents beyond your own, you take it in, you breath it out, you find within you … things "you" can improve on without fear of failure. The more you read, the more you respond, the more you learn, the more you improve, the more friends you make, the more fun you have, the more you, in turn you are able to teach a new member just starting out, where you once were, one year ago. Passions is cyclic … it's positive … it's rewarding … it's friendship … it's poetry … heck … it's life the way it "should" be ... and I'm darn proud of it. [This message has been edited by Kit McCallum (12-18-2002 10:57 PM).] |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Casey, you're ready to bail MUCH too easily. Disagreement doesn't mean we're not willing to listen. If you can defend your beliefs, then you should. If you can't, then you should reconsider them. Giving up should be your last response, not your first. I agree with Brad. Uh, mostly. Workshops, critiques, discussions, they all serve very useful purposes. They don't teach you how to write, though, and for some people, I think they can even be harmful. Personally, I'd like to see a lot more one-on-one sharing of insights, and I hope our new software will facilitate that. But I doubt it will ever be more than one small facet of the process. I also agree with Brad that reading and understanding poetic tradition is important, but would probably disagree on how best to accomplish those ends. Indeed, I think the phrase "how best" is probably an oxymoron. That's the mistake I think people make. There is no one way to learn, and there's certainly no best way that applies to everyone equally. Not only are people very different in what they need, but even the same person needs different things at different times. These forums are one small stop along the learning journey. I hope, as we continue to grow, we can expand our usefulness into more areas. But we will never be more than one small stop, if only because learning to write well is a VERY long and complex journey. You can't learn everything you need to know here. But I don't think that lessens the very real value of what you CAN learn here. Not just about writing, which is important, but about people, which is far more important. People, after all, is the only theme worth exploring. We're not perfect and we should never stop trying to be better. But Kit's right. Those who have no intention of learning will nonetheless learn. Those who don't think they're learning will nonetheless learn. Participation is the key, learning through osmosis is inevitable, and all who are here are the teachers. Is that the best way? Nope. Because there is no best way. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I still say that saying that there is no "best way, period" or to say that, "I know what the best way is, period." are essentially the same thing. By avoiding the possibility of being wrong, you can't be right. These categories drop out, and it's either acceptance or rejection, submission or rebellion. And nobody talks to each other about the very thing they're asking about: poetry. That there is no definitive or exhaustive definition is the opportunity for conversation, not the retreat into silence. |
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clve527 Member
since 2002-07-08
Posts 200 |
Okay, I am on tight time right now, so hopefully I can make this short. I have seen stated (in so many words) that you learn just by reading here? Wouldn't that simply make you imitate? I have seen many poems that are so similiar in idea to another one that it's just boring. Is that the only way to learn? You will learn by default by merely reading. But how much learning can the writer of a poem do when 90% of what is stated is "Wow, this is good."? And Ron, by the way, I quit this easily because this fight has been fought by me far too many times. I have learned that what is popular isn't always right and what's right isn't always popular. This doesn't mean I'm right, but I am fighting a losing battle here. I doubt any will come in and agree with me, which is fine. But I am merely one person and the army versus one grows tiresome quickly. Casey |
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Larry C
since 2001-09-10
Posts 10286United States |
Sarah, I sent you the following email and it was blocked: Sarah, I wondering if you could help me? I'm trying to understand this post that you made there? Did you have a bad day or does the site really suck? I certainly hope you are able to respond. I will keep our communication confidential. larrywcsr@lycos.com |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Dana Gioa said much the same thing about the Beats: they were good examples of precisely what he didn't want to do. By the way, I never said read here, I said read the tradition. As far as reading leading only to imitation, do you really think reading is that easy? Don't confuse it with skimming -- "Ah, that's what you're supposed to do." -- as opposed to, "What does this poem do?" |
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Nightshade
since 2001-08-31
Posts 13962just out of reach |
One person's poetry might be another person's garbage, or "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet." I didn't join here to be published.....and probably couldn't be. I joined to relax and reflect. That is exactly what "poetry" should offer - relaxation and reflection. A smile, a laugh, or a tear. Passions has given all of this to me. Oh, geesh, now I feel silly. But, silly is a good way to start the day.  Season Greetings. Chris |
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Sudhir Iyer Member Ascendant
since 2000-04-26
Posts 6943Mumbai, India : now in Belgium |
Orginal Quote: "Has anyone else ever realized that there is barely any real talent on this website... that hundreds of people post here and possibly 1 out of 200 poems are even worth reading...that the more a poem sucks, the more replies it gets...that half the members can't even spell, much less rhyme or be creative...that this poetry board sucks possibly more than any other poetry board out there, but everyone visits it frankly because, everyone visits it? I bid farewell to all of you. Good luck on your continuing efforts to not post the crappiest poems I have possibly ever read. " --------- I will take the good parts in this, I suppose... "but everyone visits it frankly because, everyone visits it" if everyone visits this site, I think we all are very very popular right... makes me feel special, thank you "Good luck on your continuing efforts" Thank you again... yep, many thanks to the one who shall not read anything from here anymore ------ mockery aside: Why do humans who leave a place make an announcement to say they are leaving forever? corollary: What do humans expect when they do that? ---- maybe that is philosphical... and so is why am I even typing this here? ----------- is it because: I exist so I am: I am so I exist |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
(laughing at Sudhir Iyer) Very amusing... |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Casey, since these forums opened in mid-1999 there have been a handful of topics that have risen again and again and again, like corpses that refuse to be buried and forgotten. Tired? You don't know the half of it! And, yes, prolific reading will, in large part, "simply make you imitate." That's part of what Brad meant by tradition and it's a necessary ingredient in art. I suspect Brad would tell you that it is ALL of art, that it is impossible to not imitate. Anything that is not an imitation, that is completely new and unique, would be incomprehensible to anyone except the artist (and probably to the artist, too). Art is evolutionary, not revolutionary. Would you be better served by reading Shakespeare, Milton, and Tennyson? Maybe. Would everyone here be equally motivated to read the classics? Probably not. Interaction is the spoonful of sugar that makes the medicine go down. Does that mean you should never go beyond reading? Of course not. While it's foolish to think one can skip the reading stage, it's equally foolish to think it is the only stage of learning. Getting help from others on the same journey can make the journey shorter. But even if you believe you are ready to move beyond just reading, that doesn't mean everyone around you is either ready or willing. It's okay to move forward alone, and you'll typically find others waiting for you there. But when you move forward, you should do so quietly so as not to disturb those still reading. I applaud anyone who wants to learn to write better. But I can guarantee you, Casey, that you didn't always have that desire. That, like everything else, was something you learned. Many here are still in the process of learning that desire. In trying to push their vehicles with your own, you won't help them move faster. You'll only put a few dents in your bumper trying and there's the very real danger you'll end up pushing them off the road. You'll almost certainly attract the attention of a few traffic cops, too. quote: They can certainly have the same effect, Brad, that of closing down conversation, but that hardly makes them the same thing. The difference lies in the future tense. Adamantly claiming "one best way" shuts down exploration of alternatives, leaving nothing to discuss. Recognizing that others learn differently and at different paces opens the door to explore those differences. There is no best way applicable to everyone. That is not the same as saying there is no best way applicable to YOU. Instead of closing down conversation, we open it to infinite possibilities. quote: EXACTLY! Is learning nothing more than the regurgitation of what is right and wrong? Right and wrong are situational. Understanding is much less so. I think that only when you eliminate the possibility of right and wrong does learning take place. |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
(now lauhing at Ron)... you do get on a roll... not that you don't make sense.. it amuses me however how seriously you can discuss issues like this.. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: I would. The other stuff is probably best served if I respond in the philosophy forum. But infinite opportunity and no opportunity are the same thing because everything is situational. Ah, I'm having fun again. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
if everything is situational, then wouldn't that mean that sometimes it isn't? i love phrases like this. and I love listening to you guys 'go off'. it's a blast! |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I've found very little in life that can't be taken seriously, Ron. I've found even less that can't be dismissed with a well-meaning laugh. The trick, as always, is to know which is the most appropriate response. Brad, is it a little scary when we can predict what the other will say? Or is that chill I feel simply a cold December wind? Send me a dollar tomorrow, Brad, then two dollars on Saturday and four on Sunday and eight on Monday … When you've sent me infinite dollars, I'll be broke and declare bankruptcy. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
But we have the concept ahistorical, asituational and we can use that as a contrast. Of course, to say everything is situational is as much an empty phrase as to say that there is such a thing as context-free situation (Huh?). |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
quote -------------------------------------------- I've found very little in life that can't be taken seriously, Ron. I've found even less that can't be dismissed with a well-meaning laugh. The trick, as always, is to know which is the most appropriate response. --------------------------------------------- To laugh at something does not mean you do not take it seriously any more than seriously discussing it mean you do not think it funny. I have found people's opinions should be taken seriously, but no one should take themselve so seriously that they can't laugh at themselves. Life can beat the tar out of you if you let it no matter how smart, how talented, or how good you are. Learning to laugh at yourself and at situations can sure ease the pain of the beatings you do take, and..lessen the in some cases the willingness of others to do the beating.... While I appreciate the subject being discussed can and should be thought about seriously, it also should be looked at with humor. You fellows going on in here like you do in the Philosophy area IS amusing... you are very serious and very intent on driving every last possible meaning out of the points being made...and are just as guilty as Casey. ( laughing) Want me to leave now Ron? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
But you haven't said anything funny yet. You just keep telling other people to laugh. |
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Paul Wilson
since 2002-07-07
Posts 4711United States |
To quote an old cliche' "If the shoe fits wear it" If not buy a new pair...Paul " To share my poems with you is to share my heart with you " [This message has been edited by Paul Wilson (12-20-2002 12:05 AM).] |
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Titia Geertman Member Ascendant
since 2001-05-07
Posts 5182Netherlands |
I won't go into the discussion of what poetry is or should be, that's an endless road, because to every individual, poetry means something else. I've found this (I think) very interesting essay about poetry on the web wich I like to share. http://cs.alfred.edu/~maurojc/papers/english/poetry.html To me...PIP is a kind of place I would like to compare to the local brown café, as we call it in Holland. A pub where you go in, sit down, look around, listen and take part in the conversation that's going on, if you want to. And whether I connect with people in a pub and talk to them or connect with people on PIP and write words in some form of poetry, the purpose is the same: we're expressing feelings. And does it really matter if someone in a pub talks to me in perfect English (Dutch) or in any kind of dialect? Simple answer: NO and I don't tell them I'm not interested in what they have to say, just because I don't like the dialect they speak in. Same goes for me with poetry. Oh well, I think I've just spend my two dimes. Titia Like scattered leaves...my words will flow [This message has been edited by Titia Geertman (12-21-2002 05:38 AM).] |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Care to elaborate, Ron? That all sounds really profound, almost Zen-like, but seems to be a little short on meaning. What do you think the points being made are? What is the meaning being lost? |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Glitter? Guess I hadn't noticed. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I had no idea so many suckers came to this place! Imagine that. Oh well, back to open. Enjoy your search for a better site. Good luck. |
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garysgirl
since 2002-09-29
Posts 19237Florida, USA |
I didn't even know this thread was here until Titia wrote a poem about it at the Open Forum. It seems that one of the people who think they're such excellent poets has come to the Open Forum to critique the other writers. (Note that I said "writers", because I am one of those.) I don't claim to be a "professional poet", but I did find a very friendly, loving and compassionate atmosphere here at PIP. The huge majority of people here are very tender-hearted people. How Ron has managed to accumulate such a large variety of people is that he has excellent rules and guidelines that he (and his moderators) enforce. He has even set up different forums for people to gather who are interested in learning all the different techniques and styles of writing. But, I am almost certain that Ron (or the moderators) don't allow rudeness and downright mean remarks to be given. I don't know for certain, because I've never been to one of those forums. Why? Because I don't even call myself a poet and I certainly don't expect anyone else to. Anyway, I know that everyone is entitled to their opinions, but can't they at least be courteous about it? I've had a few of the talented writers give me advice on different styles of poetry. I didn't mind that at all, because they did it in a very courteous and compassionate way. But when someone uses such words as "sucks" when replying or talking about someones heart-felt writing, that bothers me. When that other person started attacking my "writings", it didn't bother me as much as it did when I read some of his replies to my other "family of friends". I appreciate Ron for making this "home" here for people who love poetry, even if they don't know all the basics of writing poetry. It is a loving, compassionate, family and every person who comes here is welcomed with open arms. They may not feel welcomed for very long, though, if they're not friendly and compassionate to others. These loving people don't like someone to come in here thinking they know more than anybody else does. I've always heard that to have friends, you have to be a friend. I have found that to be very true here. Most people who come here have some things in common, even though everyone comes from different backgrounds. The first thing in common is that we all love poetry, or we wouldn't have come in the first place. The second is that, for whatever reason, we love to communicate on-line. This is the first site that I have ever communicated with anyone on the internet besides my family and my own personal friends. Since I have become acquainted with so many wonderful people here, this is where I stay most of the time I'm on the internet. The reason being that I felt loved and accepted here. I have gotten to know many of the people here through their poetry, because most of them write from their heart. When they do that, they reveal things about themselves that they sometimes had rather keep private...(speaking of myself). But in so doing, they receive inner healing of many scars put on their hearts from many different sources through their lives. So, why do we all gather here? (because we want to). Why is it that sometimes what a critique would think are the "worst poems" get the most replies? Because whoever wrote the poem has made friends because they were a friend.............. Thank you, Ron, for giving us all this wonderful place where our "family of friends" can gather. ~Ethel........garysgirl~ |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
i don't think i could survive a Passions without tangents!!!  |
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The Lonely Stranger Member
since 1999-06-18
Posts 361Upstate, NY, USA |
[[[I have a question. If this place is so terrible, and you hate it so much, why did you post a poem in Open? Thank you.]]] Romeo, they probably just read 199 of those lousy poems and wanted to be sure we got our ONE good one. ;^) ... and they sent him home happy ... one hundred percent. |
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