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i don't get it...
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i don't get it... |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
something that utterly baffles me is this- whenever I venture into the announcements and links forum in hopes of finding something interesting, i am just bombarded with recognition posts for people who have broken the 8 million post mark... what's with that? Now, I know, I know, maybe people won't listen to this point since I'm not a prominent member with posts into the 4 or 5 digit range, but isn't it a waste of time shaking cyber-hands about how many cyber conversations you've had? Isn't it quality that matters over quantity? I can't ever recall anybody being congratulated on the basis of intelligent replies- just the sheer multitude of them- which, unwittingly enough fuels a sort of forum hierarchy in which a poet feels that to be recognized, he/she must post replies to every poem on here, and when people post simply to get their numbers up, it just reduces the quality of the replies or discussions. It's really ridiculous anyway- just the sheer concept of "Congratulations, you've ascended a rung higher in the number of cyber-friends you have and the number of bytes your username takes up!! Yeah!!" Don't get me wrong- I respect the fact that this place is a community of sorts thru which people share their feelings, ideas, and writing- but I don't remember the last time my friend called me up and congratulated me on calling her for the 1000th time.... or the last time my boss shook my hand and told me that was the hundredth pan of mashed potatoes I've replaced.... I just thought I would point out the ludicrosity of the whole thing. everything's fine. |
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JLR Senior Member
since 2001-02-04
Posts 1785 |
Good points...parts of it I honestly agree with. However, one persons ludicrous act is anothers reason for smiling that day. All in all...it's kind of harmless, don't you think? I mean, it builds people up, makes them feel good about themselves. And so little of life can be counted on to do that. And I promise if you stick around long enough to hit a 1000...I'll post a congrats to you. |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
~smiling~ Well, if you look to the left of my post you will see I have this horribly extensive amount of posts. (It comes from both being a moderator, and for being here nearly two years). Now I can see your points here...if I cynically analyse this I might even agree. BUT I think, Hush, that you are missing the vital point. If it's viewed in terms of a competition then sure it really is ludricrous and an underminding of all the values passions proclaims to hold dear. Have you closely read these posts? CLOSELY? Here are a few quotes: quote: This is from Elizabeth's post that congratulates Sven on 10000 posts. quote: This to SEA from Sunshine... My own, precious example: quote: From Jamie to me very recently. Hmm...I don't see competition here, in any of these. I see instead people from a community congratulating other people in that community and thanking them for their participation. It must be remembered that the majority of these posts are replies. Without all of these posts passions wouldn't be the community it is. Why not thank people who have been here a long time? Who have encouraged people through countless posts (representing many many hours). Why not encourage those people by recognising their efforts? It's not a numbers game Hush. Rather, energy, effort and love of this place are represented through numbers. Now, I am a cynical person. I know that for some an element of competition might exist. Yet, even if that is the case, it doesn't remove the true intent, and purpose of these congratulatory announcements, which I am very proud to take part in...  KI am a refugee of logic...insisting on unlikely land with every step. [This message has been edited by Severn (edited 07-10-2001).] |
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Temptress
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-06-15
Posts 7136Mobile, AL |
Hmmm.. I agree with Severn! I know this whole shortened "I agree" thing must be annoying people lately, but what else can be said when someone else has already said it, eh?  |
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anonymousfemale Member Elite
since 2000-02-02
Posts 2797Limbo |
Ditto to K. She said it all and perfectly at that.  Never speak disrespectfully of Society. Only people who can't get into it do that. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I agree with Hush. Intent does not justify practice. If it's not the numbers but through the numbers, let's find another way to recognize people. I don't know, what about thanking them for the reasons Kamla stated and dropping the whole numbers thing altogether? Brad |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
I would just as soon have the numbers dropped [it's been mentioned before].... but no way in the world am I going to let a good poem/poet slide by without my thanking them for sharing.... even if others don't feel it "top of the mark"...I wouldn't leave a "thanks!" if it didn't touch me in some way.... |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Why should you stop? Recognition is important. Brad |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
You can drop my numbers too...or put me back to zero..it's not the quantity of posts that I have, it's the fact that I read and reply. I've been here since the beginning and with only 100 members at that time getting to 1000 posts WAS quite a feat. But with SO many members now, it's easy to sit back in the evening and read and reply to 100 poems. I will tell you that I read a lot more than I reply to also...not just because I'm a Moderator! But if this is a numbers game to someone, it's something THEY have to live with...I don't spend time worrying about someone's motives... |
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Acies
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 2000-06-07
Posts 7665Twilight Zone |
I just thought that the congratulatory threads about a member's amount of posts was to thank his/her dedication to being constantly an active member of Passions. So, obviously, I agree with Severn. I never looked at this as any type of competition to have the most posts. And I never though that respect and admiration in Passions is only given to the people who have the most posts. Otheres just have to realize that the more active you are, the more people will know you. hi Sweets, Lizzy, Kris, Ina, Erin, Erica, Minna, Kit, Kamie, Javi, Jenn, Sharon, Nan, Cawlee, Cherish, Ashley, Sara, Justine, Leah, Jess, Kimmie, Mare |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Sharon says she reads and replies, sometimes, to a hundred poems in one sitting. I feel lucky if I can get through ten in a sitting. Who's right? I hope people will say neither or both. The question isn't activity as such but whether posting numbers are a productive way to recognize those who do contribute. If numbers are the 'rule of thumb' then I am by definition excluded from this process (I'm not complaining, it doesn't keep me up at night ).Acire "And I never though that respect and admiration in Passions is only given to the people who have the most posts. Otheres just have to realize that the more active you are, the more people will know you." No one denies that activity should be recognized but the implication is that the number of posts is more important than the 'quality' of post. Put another way, you're saying that the quantity of posts is more important than the quantity in the post. Why? Recognize activity as such and forget the numbers. Brad |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Whoa... reading and replying to 100 poems in one night?? It's taken me over a month to approach a hundred posts.... How much time can one actually spend thinking about the material read if just dashing off to read the next piece? It's unrealistic to expect to be able to read everything posted at a site this big- but to me, it seems like that's exactly what some people try to do- I don't want anybody to get me wrong- I am not criticizing people who post a lot- I am criticizing the fact that they need a special post to congratulate them on that- I agree with brad- why do you have to wait until so-and-so breaks a certain number of posts before recognizing their contributions to the community? It does create a competition, even if the poster in question isn't consciously participating in it. Why can't you just thank people based on the content of their posts? Also, while I see where the specifics Severn posted can be a beneficial thing, most of the posts there are a simple 'congratulations' 'way to go' or even occasionally congratulating on passing the 'X-thousand milestone'. What milestone? I personally feel it's silly to put that much importance on a little file on the internet, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms, because I realize that some people have close relationships online and are much more attached to this forum that I am... and I can respect that. And to JLR, yes, in essence is IS harmless, because it's just a forum on the internet where people congratulate each other about being active on the internet.... but that's my whole point. It's dumb! It does make people feel good... but about what? Posting a lot? It just seems like a pretty futile way to boost confidence anyway- why wouldn't you make a post that says 'Hey thanks, so-and-so, I really enjoyed that thoughtful conversation we had the other day, and I just want to let everyone know what a cool person you are' or 'congratulations, so-and-so, for writing that awesome poem- I really admire it- here's the link, should anyone else want to check it out, it's really cool' or even 'so-and-so, i really appreciate the fact that you spend the time reading my poems and giving me feedback- your comments are appreciated.' But it's not that- it's 'congratulations BECAUSE of how many posts you have.' Those few points that severn copied are the exception- and if people want to say 'Oh! Here's 4,000 kisses for those 4,000 posts!' it's not gonna bother me at night either.... but doesn't anyone ever wonder why they spend time with something so silly? everything's fine. |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
Well - I just sent Seymour a cyber kiss for every one of his posts... Silly? yep!!... Intended to be silly? yep again!!!... We've gotta have some fun here... otherwise why bother to be here... Competition? Nope... nada... NOT!!! We're just a simple community of poets who come here to share our poetry - and laugh, smile, cry, congratulate, adulate, congregate, write, read, learn, etc., etc., etc....  |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: You can. You should. And if you haven't, maybe your proposal has an unforeseen glitch that should be more closely examined. It's important to show appreciation when you care about someone. Those spontaneous affirmations of "I love you" or those small gifts for "no special reason" can often be the most important moments in a person's life. Sadly, those moments often slip by, unrealized, for a host of different reasons. That's why we still have birthdays and anniversaries and holidays - those little reminders human beings often need to prod us to show our appreciation. Getting rid of wedding anniversaries probably won't make for happier marriages, because it doesn't necessarily promote more of those spontaneous and special moments of appreciation. That's a different issue altogether. And until humans reach a little higher level of perfection, those "silly" anniversaries just might add a moment or two of pleasure to someone's life. Of course, the analogy between special dates (which are also frequently celebrated in the forums) and number of posts is less than perfect. You can't rush Valentine's Day and it's hard to have more birthdays than your neighbor. There's always the very real danger of it turning into a competition. Fortunately, I think there are two things that prevent that from being a real problem. First, every one of us knows when it happens. There's one person I know of who promised himself to have X posts and he's diligently working away at that goal. And his responses reflect his rush. That's a shame, too, because he's a sincere individual who could share much more were he not so misguided. Second, a competition can only exist when people agree to compete. If I'm not trying to get more posts than you and you're not trying to get more posts than me, then we obviously have no competition. Perhaps less obviously, even if you are trying to surpass my numbers, if I don't care - we still have no competition. The only ones who should ever worry about Passions turning into a competition are those who insist on competing. Most of us, I think, recognize the numbers for what they are and put no more meaning into them than that. |
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Dopey Dope
Moderator
Member Patricius
since 2000-08-30
Posts 11132San Juan, Puerto Rico |
Well here's my thing: I use the net and when I use it I am only in ONE place and it's Passions. I have nothing else to do with my time cuz I dislike reading and watching television or playing video games, plus on top of that I hardly ever go out. I like to read poetry and so I read a LOT...sometimes 150 in one night (as rare as that is it's happened). Plus let me just point out that TEEN CHAT and these discussion forums have probably accounted for, at least, 3k of my post count. Not all these replies are for poems. Anyhow, being congratulated for my post count is not and was not ever up to me....I've never really cared. I just like to participate a LOT and have some sort of recognition as a nice guy. I love knowing people here.....that and my love of poetry is mostly why I reply so much |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
'You can. You should. And if you haven't, maybe your proposal has an unforeseen glitch that should be more closely examined.' I'm not sure whether that statement was directed specifically at me, or at 'you' as a general group, so I'll address it both ways. I am not concerned about how congratulatory posts relate to me, because I don't use the forum as a friend-making tool. I come here to have interesting and intelligent discussions/debates with people. I know someone's going to ask me why, then, am I attacking the post congratulating practice- and it's for the above reason. I have nothing to do right now, and it seems like it would be interesting to get other people's viewpoints on the subject. Now, on a more general basis, I see where you are coming from, Ron- except that I don't really see those kinds of posts that you seem to be so in favor of. Maybe the unforseen glitch in my proposal has something to do with the fact that the focus is on the number of posts, rather than the content therein. Granted, I have not been posting here nearly as long as most of you, but I have not seen any posts that say 'congratulaions for doing something special'... that is, unless you consider hitting the submit reply button 100 times a day something really special... once again, I am not attacking people with large post numbers, but simply the fact that these people may have honestly contributed something very special, and all they are getting recognition for is the quantity of contribution rather than quality. Ron, I am in total agreeance that numbers are numbers and should stay as such- which is precisely why I think it's so stupid to have virtual ticker-tape parades about them. everything's fine. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I still haven't heard one statement arguing for this thing. If the numbers are a tool, are they a good tool? I hear: I don't care about the numbers. There's nothing wrong with being silly. I do it too. Most know the numbers don't mean anything. All of these arguments are fine and legitimate but they avoid the question. Why numbers? Why promote something that means so little to everybody? Why promote something that some people take more seriously than they should (Ron's example)? Now, honestly, I'm not sure there is a proposal here. To my knowledge, this isn't official Passions policy, it's something that arose spontaneously (No, it doesn't make it any better because it was 'natural'.). I certainly don't want to be the one running around telling people they can't do this, but I don't think we should be promoting it either. The best we can do, I think, is simply try to explain to people that the numbers don't or shouldn't matter. Unless they do. I have an idea (when do I not?) as to the reason for emphasizing numbers but I'm not going to tell anyone. Think about it. Brad |
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Jesse Jaymz Senior Member
since 2000-01-24
Posts 708Youngstown, ohio |
i made it to 500 and no one congraduated me  *pouts* all i got was this t-shirt, wait, i always had that shirt *mumbles something about salmons and hippy noodles ruining his life* When I was a young man I vowed never to marry until I found the ideal woman. Well, I found her - but, alas, she was waiting for the perfect man. :( |
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Titia Geertman Member Ascendant
since 2001-05-07
Posts 5182Netherlands |
I am not concerned about how congratulatory posts relate to me, because I don't use the forum as a friend-making tool. I come here to have interesting and intelligent discussions/debates with people. I know someone's going to ask me why, then, am I attacking the post congratulating practice- and it's for the above reason. I have nothing to do right now, and it seems like it would be interesting to get other people's viewpoints on the subject Well Hush, I think the above is just the point what it's all about. For we, 'the numberpeople', do use the forums as a friendmaking tool. That's the main issue I think of us being here, sharing thoughts, feelings, poetry and sadness. Helping each other when we notice one is down or sharing in joy when one is happy. Did you ever read the poems on 'Open', did you ever replied to one that really touched you? Did you ever took the time to read the replies that were given by so many? If you did you would have known that there's no competition in Passions. And if we want to congratulate someone for his/hers whatevernumber posts of caring, writing, replying, laughing, crying, we don't do that in 'Open' because 'Open' is just for poetry, so we do that on one of the other forums. We got to know each other so well, that we don't need intelligent conversation to express our gratitude to our friends, just a simple  or  will do.The addressed person will know exactly what was ment. I think even intelligent conversations need a  , a  and a sometimes,cause without caring for the oponent, what's the point in having a conversation other than just love to hear oneself talk. We have a saying in the Netherlands: To whom the shoe fits, puts him on wich means that the one that's bothered by something others do, that one should take a look deepdown and ask themselves: Why? So, you do your thing and we do ours, with respect for both sides, cause I don't want to be referred to as 'dumm' for giving love and care in the way I think right to the friends I found here. Cause in the time I've spend writing this all down, I could have read some lovely poetry instead. Titia A rose is a rose is a rose...I guess... Feel free to use the pictures on my website. http://communities.msn.com/Titiasplace&naventryid=100 [This message has been edited by Titia Geertman (edited 07-10-2001).] |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Were you talking about posts, birthdays, or Golden wedding anniversaries? None of them reflect quality. Each, however, can be important to the people being recognized. quote: The numbers should represent participation. They're not a perfect representation, of course, and probably not even a good one. But they're easy. Kinda like celebrating someone's birthday instead of putting together a whole "This is Your Life" show (I just lost all our younger readers!). The latter, showcasing actual contributions, would be far preferable in my opinion - but would also take considerably more time and effort. As a side note, I've seen forums where Members can "rate" the participation of others and everyone has from zero to five stars below their name, based on their rating. If I ask a question and you give me a particularly helpful answer, I can up your rating. If you give me a wrong answer, I can bring your rating down. Cool idea. Except, from what I've seen, it plain doesn't work, and for a whole lot of different reasons. Celebrations of specific accomplishments should be found (and are) within the thread where the accomplishment took place. Less specific celebrations, like the anniversary of joining the forums or the number of posts - or someone's birthday, which is usually treated with equal festivity - are little more than concrete reminders to say Thank You. Is it the best way? Probably not. Does that make it silly? Absolutely not… |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
... and there are multitudes of threads throughout the forums that are devoted to our members' accomplishments - both within Passions and in their own personal lives... We've got a LOT of very special people here...  |
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Kit McCallum
Administrator
Member Laureate
since 2000-04-30
Posts 14774Ontario, Canada |
Hi, my name is Kit, and I'm a Congratulaholic  Guilty of congratulating here .... and proud of it, LOL. I've written quite a few specific poems in tribute to various Passion's members for their accomplishments and the wonderful people they are, I've written several thank you poems to all members, I e-mail and thank various members regularly for all sorts of special things ... and ya know what? I love to say "Congratulations" in the Announcement threads. Probably not much of a surprise to those who know me. Why? I don't know ... I just do, not a lot more exciting or indepth than that ... I just like to. It's certainly not dumb, it can often be fun and silly, but for the most part ... it always just "feels" good. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Ron, It is easy. It also looks objective -- it doesn't look like an opinion. It hides the opinion behind that objectivity. And therefore hides its exclusive nature. It also hides its exclusive nature because it is so trivial. But there has to be a reason so many are defending this. By the way, it is competitive in the same way that 'keeping up with the Joneses' is competitive. The Jones family may not be competing (or they may say they aren't competing), but I don't think the importance of status should be underestimated. I don't know. To me, it's like arguing that the problems of 'popularity' in high school are solely the problems of those who recognize 'popularity' as an issue. Those who bring that up, of course, are usually the ones who are unpopular and those who are popular will deny that it is important. I guess I'm in the minority on that one. Titia, Believe it or not, we're all on the same side. Those who are interested in intellectual discussion and/or debate are still part of this group, we're in the minority but we're still here. Hush can voice her opinion as do you. I don't think she means to offend anyone, I certainly don't; but we are, by definition, excluded from this type of recognition but included in the "Passions family". Should we care about this exclusion? I don't know except that it marginalizes those who are interested in a different form of communication still further, it promotes the overwhelming majority at the expense of the minority. It marginalizes those who want to interact with each other, who want to talk, in order to promote those who already 'know' what the other person is knowing, doing, saying. It marginalizes those who attempt a complex argument rather than a simple sound bite or a smiley face. Is this a good thing? But ultimately the advice that somebody out there must be thinking is, "Well, if you want to be recognized, just comment more." And that's exactly the point. There's the pressure to conform, there's the competition. Why would someone want to be recognized? Why is it important? Reread everything in this post. That's why. Why wouldn't we? Brad PS The point of language and conversation is to understand difference (absence), to grasp or try to grasp what you, I, we don't know. You don't need a language to care about someone. The smiley faces prove that. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Nan and Kit, Who is arguing against congratulating/recognizing people in general? Are the number of posts an important enough accomplishment to focus on those numbers? If so, why? If not, why do people do it? The only argument for numbers so far has been Ron's "they should represent participation." Brad |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
I don't personally care about the numbers - They're there, so I notice them... and I'm pleased to see so much interaction by our members, so I tell them I've noticed. Do I care if anyone notices mine? Not particularly... It's a non-issue... LOL... but... I am about to don a new 'title' soon...  |
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Kit McCallum
Administrator
Member Laureate
since 2000-04-30
Posts 14774Ontario, Canada |
Well, I promised myself I wasn't going to analyze this Brad, because I know better than to debate you (you're too good, LOL) What I can do though, is give you only "my" perception, my personal opinion ... not how or why others do or don't recognize post numbers or Passion's anniversaries. I do not look at it as a competition ... but I do look at both number of posts and anniversaries as a representation of longevity, or permanence if you will. That may sound odd, but I very clearly remember being new here, and watched the ease and comaraderie with which many of the "older" members conversed (oh, so sorry for that "old" term, LOL) By "old" I do mean a member with a lengthier membership 'or' a larger number of posts 'or' a combination of both. As a new member, I was shy, vulnerable and felt very exposed when I first came here (those are personal traits, nothing to do with Passions by the way). I am not the type of person who shared their writings beyond close family or friends. Those who so readily welcomed me into this home, and quickly made me feel at ease here, are the "older" members ... the same people I continue to see acknowledge fellow poets with open arms. A part of that acknowledgement since I began, has and continues to be, recognizing and congratulating poets for reaching various milestone posts or anniversaries. As I got to know people better over time, I also came to understand that some of the congratulatory posts were also a way of encouraging newer members to venture out of "Open" where so many start and stay. I don't think I ventured out of Open until someone told me I had a 500 post congratulatory thread in announcements. From Announcements, I discovered the Alley, from the Alley, I discovered Spiritual, from Spiritual, I discovered Feelings etc. So why do "I" congratulate others? It has to do with kinship ... with giving back what I know made "me" feel good ... what "I" appreciated, and made me feel special, welcomed and a part of a wonderful community. As I said ... simply put, it just "feels" good. I really can't explain it beyond that ... it just makes me smile, and some days ... that's all I'm looking for. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Ok Nan, I'm side-stepping all of the above because I first want to know your new "title"... and secondly, because I'm an avid poster of "guess who hit this mark".... which will probably throw Brad and those proponents of who don't like the number system [I don't like the number system, but I'm not about to take it away from everyone else! - but if mine could be eliminated by a button, I would do so!].... but I POST the "congrats to..." in Announcements because, guess what! For the most part, I can READ in responses and replies the sincerity behind the responses, I see a LOT of work put into poems, whether it be regarded good, great, or simply "that's nice"...the point is... Passions is all about a family of friends... where we can be honest and sincere, cyber hugs are abundant... we cry, rant, rave and have discussions of all kinds...most of which you cannot find in a family kitchen any longer... and for some inane reason, I sincerely believe that a site like this one RIGHT HERE will bring back the interaction of a family kitchen.... and perhaps someday do a full circle back TO the family room/kitchen/den...wherever it was some of us had those great discussions with our family members.... but in this site...? We just broadened our horizons. As for the numbers? To some, it shows a "hey, I belong" sense. As for showing respect and consideration? I think I can go back to Forum #1, where I was posting poem after poem, THANKING Passions for being here, thanking the members for their welcome...thanking them for just about everything including their wit, whims and humor. Thank goodness this is the Alley. I think I've had my first real rant. [This message has been edited by Sunshine (edited 07-10-2001).] |
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Romy Senior Member
since 2000-05-28
Posts 1170Plantation, Florida |
I don't know. I just really liked it when people noticed and congratulated me for hanging in there after five hundred posts. Then one thousand. It took me a long time to reach one thousand posts. When people notice things like post numbers, or birthdays or other important events, It feels nice. It lets a person know that they are noticed here and not just another post on the board. To me it adds to the feeling of being part of a community. I enjoy writing, but more than that, I enjoy writing and receiving feedback in a community of my peers. I like the recognition. It makes me feel good. I enjoy commenting on the work of others and it feels good to encourage somebody to keep writing. It's not why I came here, but it's the reason that I've stayed. [This message has been edited by Romy (edited 07-11-2001).] |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Brad, you almost seem to be suggesting that NOT having a high post count is a bad thing, even perhaps that it in some way discourages discourse. Exclusive? Marginalizes? Saying something is good and worthy of congratulations isn't the same thing as saying a lack of that thing must be bad. I congratulated you on the birth of your new baby, but that doesn't mean I think less of Christopher just because he hasn't yet fathered a child. And it SURE doesn't mean I in any way covet your new status! Recognizing your accomplishments shouldn't be seen as diminishing someone else. I have to admit I'd be much more concerned about this issue if the number of posts was the only way people were being recognized, or even if I thought it was a major way. But almost by definition (and there are always exceptions), our Members will appreciate people more for what they say than how many times they say it. I'd like to think most of our people are a little bit beyond high school popularity contests and realize the number of posts is only one of many indications of participation. Each of us contributes in our own way. Because, let's face it - if a low post count is a bad thing, you are pretty much looking at the bottom of the barrel right here. Ain't no one been here longer than me. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Brad- 'If the numbers are a tool, are they a good tool?' It seems to me that if numbers are as unimportant as their defenders seem to think they are, it wouldn't be necessary to have a counter right under a person's member name! In my opinion, the numbers (date registered as well as post numbers) are used to give a reader an idea of a person's place in the online community. When I read someone's post, my eyes almost always flick over- because it's there to look at. Would I search out the info in the person's profile? Probably not- I'm more interested in things like world location and hobbies when it comes to learning about people than how long and how much they've been posting. But, to me, any forums that have those little counters (some that have member classifications- such as jr. member, newbie, etc., that by virtue of the name itself indicate a certain naivete, someone who isn't 'broken in' or doesn't yet have the hang of things...) seem to be saying 'look here'. If numbers were not important, then what's the point of the freakin display? Titia: 'For we, 'the numberpeople', do use the forums as a friendmaking tool. ' If you'll read my earlier posts more throughly before taking offense to a statement about myself and what this forum is to me (which was in no way meant to insult any 'number people', sorry if you got that impression) I said: 'Don't get me wrong- I respect the fact that this place is a community of sorts thru which people share their feelings, ideas, and writing- ' 'but that's a whole 'nother can of worms, because I realize that some people have close relationships online and are much more attached to this forum that I am... and I can respect that. ' 'once again, I am not attacking people with large post numbers, but simply the fact that these people may have honestly contributed something very special, and all they are getting recognition for is the quantity of contribution rather than quality.' Also, you said: 'wich means that the one that's bothered by something others do, that one should take a look deepdown and ask themselves: Why?' I believe I have done that, but let me be brutally honest with you and myself. I am half irritated to see so many presumably intelligent people delighting in their frolics in internet-land, and half-amused, especially by your bit of philosophy within your very heated response. If you would have been better off reading poetry, why aren't you doing just that? Because you are obviously bothered by what I have to say. So maybe you should take your own advice and figure out why what I have to say has everyone replying- I must be making a pretty good point to have all these responses in such a short time. Ron: I was talking about posts. I think anniversaries and birthdays are perfectly legitimate reasons for a congratulatory post. I never said a word against them. And also- it's already been established (to me, at least) that post numbers are important to those celebrating them. That isn't the argument- the argument is why are they so important, and why should they be? But while you have just acknowledged their importance to some, those very people who celebrate them are in this post swearing how unimportant those numbers are... why is that? Kit: I think it's really cool that you thank members through poetry and e-mail. Those are two very good ways of showing someone you care without placing such importance on post numbers. It shows that you actually care enough to spend more time on the person than saying congratulations and adding some smileys. But I can guarantee that if I am around long enough to hit the 500 or 1000 post mark and a bunch of people I have never spoken to tell me how wonderful it is to have me around, I will lose a great deal of respect for them. The whole thing just seems very trite, cheap, and insincere, like a simple "GREAT JOB!" reply to a poem. That, once again, is a different topic, but I feel that it has relevance. Sunshine: If you are posting the congratulations posts because of a person's sincerity, then why not congratulate them on that as opposed to their number of posts? It's just that simple. You say you would do away with the numbers if you could... then how would you congratulate people? To everyone who keeps saying that the numbers are not important to them- actions speak louder than explanations- would I chew gum if I didn't like it? No. The numbers obviously hold enough importance to you that you feel the need not only to recognize them, but to defend yourselves for doing so... take Titia's quote with a grain of salt and think about that one. everything's fine. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: My point was that there is absolutely no difference between the three. Why should a birthday be a legitimate reason? A birthday is simply based on a number and certainly doesn't connote quality. If you wish someone a Happy Birthday, does that mean you don't appreciate anything about them other than their age? Instead of saying Happy Birthday to them, why don't you take fifteen minutes and tell them what you sincerely like about them as a person? Doesn't wishing them a Happy Birthday place undue emphasis on their age? Using your own logic, how in the world can you possibly suggest that a birthday deserves a congratulatory post? Talk about trite, cheap, and insincere! Sorry, hush, but if I discover it's your birthday, I'm probably going to wish you a happy one. Not because you've discovered a cure for cancer or written the great American novel, not even just because I like you, but rather as recognition of your existence and your importance as a human being. People matter, their contributions matter, and just about any opportunity to say so is justified. I probably won't ask your age, and I certainly won't get hung up on it. Because I know the numbers don't matter and my wish for a Happy Birthday will be just as sincere whether you are 19 or 99. The numbers don't matter - but the acknowledgment does. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Wow, this has stirred things up more than I thought it would. To recap: 1. I think celebrating the posts marginalizes a certain type of poster, not low posters as such. 2. I don't think there's anything we can or should do to change that except rant about it here. 3. I'm not, nor do I think Hush is, trying to criticize the posting practices of other members. We are simply saying that this practice focuses on a certain type of poster, not on another. I want to avoid 'quality' versus 'quantity' because I think it's too advesarial a distinction. Rather I think the difference is between those who believe in the quantity of posts over and above the quantity of the post. For some of us, the longer the comment the better. It gives us more to work with, think about, and so forth. That is, we're talking about two different types of quantity, okay? Kit, Believe it or not, that was the best argument so far. Essentially, you're saying that this celebration WORKS. It's extremely difficult to argue against results. I just wonder if we can't create the same situation without the reliance on post numbers. Sunshine, A kitchen conversation full of smiley faces? I like the goal (if I understand what you mean) but I'm not clear how this emphasis on numbers helps those goals. Romy, "I'm not a person, I'm a number!!!" Please don't take that seriously, I just couldn't resist. In a way though, you make a valid point. This type of celebration makes you feel good because you have been recognized. But how does it make someone feel if they have spent the same amount of time here as you have but are not recognized because they've spent their energies on long, detailed, involved posts whereas yours have been shorter (I'm not saying that one is better than the other, just that both have value). Ron, Interestingly enough, they do say 'congratulations' in both Korean and Japanese on your birthday. In a Confucian society, this makes a kind of sense because age is a bringer of privilege (and responsibility but that's usually muted). In America, however, unless things have changed pretty dramatically since last I was there, we say 'Happy Birthday.' Now, when you use this term, you may indeed mean certain things that go beyond the literal meaning of the phrase. That's fine. But "Happy Birthday" cannot mean that someone is 'special' to everyone without seriously damaging the meaning of 'special'. In a way, everyone is special and unique. I agree with that. But when you say to someone, "You're special to me." You are not saying that "You are the same as everyone else to me." You are practicing a favoritism (and there's nothing wrong with that). That's why people feel good, they are standing apart from the crowd. They count for something more than the 'special' that everyone is. But this makes no sense when the term has become a social convention, when it is expected in polite conversation. It has to mean something different or it can't be used when you meet a stranger. It can't mean what you say or say what you mean. How could it? The same goes for Happy Anniversary and Congratulations on a newborn baby (Thanks by the way. Did I ever say thanks?). Neither of these things imply that I am special; they are showing me a form of conventional respect, not because the actions are unique, not because Lynne is more important than another baby (except to me), not because my marriage is more important than someone else's, but because this is what we say in these situations. Problems happen when we don't say them. In order to keep the social status quo, we have to say them. Nobody asks, "Why did he say happy birthday on my birthday?" They ask, "Why didn't he say happy birthday on my birthday?" None of this takes away from sincerity by the way. Why question someone's sincerity if all he or she is really saying is that they hope you have a special day on a day that is, for the listener, special? The only way that sincerity becomes an issue is if it means more than what I have just described. Because by meaning more, you set yourself up for commitment (a commitment impossible to maintain), for expectation, and for disappointment. By the way, I'm not very good at these social conventions. Probably because I spend more time thinking about them than I do actually practicing them. This is not something I'm proud of as these social conventions are important. What does this have to do with celebrating posting? I'll stop here because I have to go meet my wife at the market (social conventions and all that )Brad PS Wait until I get into social pressure. |
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Kit McCallum
Administrator
Member Laureate
since 2000-04-30
Posts 14774Ontario, Canada |
The following link is not simply a result of this thread (though in that sense, I regret my timing) but rather, something I have sincerely felt prior to this discussion. I thanked Kamla via e-mail individually for a critique she gave of my work a few weeks ago, but please let me expand, and say the following ... in "Announcements": /pip/Forum3/HTML/001183.html |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
I'll never go down in history as one of the great debators of all time... To me it's simply a civilized way to have an argument, and I happen to hate arguments... ERGO, I save my personal contentions for issues that are of extreme importance to me - Otherwise... "Live & Let Live"... This point does seem to have shades of me about it, however... quote: So - Why is that?... Well - for me... It's entertaining... My life is full to the brim with SeriousNess... I much prefer FrivolousNess, and cavorting about this Passionate Place and being silly is GREAT sport. I don't see this as a complicated issue. I simply escape into a world where I'm surrounded by good friends (real friends, not just cyber sorts)... I really don't care how many posts anyone has made... In actuality, the members who have been with Passions longest happen to be my dearest friends here. I always enjoy making new friends as well, of course. The information posted beneath our names that's most relevant to me, then, is the date we joined. Interestingly enough, we seldom 'congratulate' each other for longevity here... hmmm - Perhaps we should do more of that??... |
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Miss Behavin' Member
since 1999-06-16
Posts 84 |
Oh Goody...  Does that mean that somebody will FINALLY congratulate me for SOMETHING???...   |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Nan, You're a genius. That would solve my particular problems. How more inclusive can you get? I also think whatever problems might arise would take care of themselves. Brad PS And that means I can put off the rest of this stuff: 1. Why this process is and isn't a social convention. 2. Why social pressure exists regardless of denial. 3. Why frivolity is a particular form of control. 4. Why Americans seem particularly prone to this form of pressure precisely because they so adamantly deny that they feel it. 5. And I'm sure a whole bunch of other things along the way. I'm sure I'll have to get through this stuff eventually but I'm glad it's not tomorrow. Parents are coming for a week to see the baby. |
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suthern
since 1999-07-29
Posts 20723Louisiana |
quote: I've read this thread quietly for a while... from the viewpoint of someone who's been here through an anniversary of membership, a couple of birthdays and multiple "milestone posts" without any public recognition of any of the above... and without losing any sleep over that situation. *S* To be honest, I missed most of them myself. *G* And though I don't usually join the congratulatory threads unless it's the celebrant posting a poem, they bring a smile to my face. If anyone's ever felt I'm slighting them by not joining the celebration, I don't know about it. Simply put, I like seeing people I admire having a good time... and enjoy the silliness, even if vicariously. I have enough seriousness to deal with daily! The smiles the celebrations bring are erased, however, by having any response less than an in-depth review of a poem labeled "very trite, cheap, and insincere" right along with the celebrations. It may be another issue, but it was lumped in with this... and bothers me greatly. Yes, you may consider "Great job!" to be trite... and you may think your work deserves more of a reader's time and effort than a simple response... but to immediately label it insincere????? I'm sorry, but that's an exceedingly sore point for me... NOT because I'm guilty of responding in such a way (though I am, unapologetically)... but because Passions has lost good people who were devoted to reading and encouraging poets simply because someone decided to talk trash about inane responses. These people have feelings and were hurt needlessly... and why???? Because someone CHOSE to dismiss the fact that their poem was read and enjoyed because they wanted more input, more analysis? Perhaps I'm wrong, but Critical Analysis and Philosophy (and The Alley *G*)seem to me to be the only forums that request/require some sort of analysis or debate. We all have different things going on in our lives... some may have hours to spend online, others may have minutes. We each use the time we have as best we can. To question someone's sincerity when they've GIVEN your poem their time... time they could have spent doing other, perhaps more enjoyable, things is (to me) insulting... and a far worse "crime" than celebrating milestones could ever be! And before I forget... and just to assure that my lack of sending congratulations doesn't become too much a habit *G*...  A belated CONGRATULATIONS to Miss Behavin' on your membership anniversary!!! LOL [This message has been edited by suthern (edited 07-11-2001).] |
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Titia Geertman Member Ascendant
since 2001-05-07
Posts 5182Netherlands |
Suggestion: if it annoyes people that other people are being congratulated for their so and so post, why not make a special forum for those kind of messages. Ron, make a Congratulationforum and everybody is happy. As for myself: I like to see how many posts I did post myself. Don't care about others. It so happen't that I replied at the end of page 1, so I did see page 2 just now. So I'll reply step by step. Titia: 'For we, 'the numberpeople', do use the forums as a friendmaking tool. ' If you'll read my earlier posts more throughly before taking offense to a statement about myself and what this forum is to me (which was in no way meant to insult any 'number people', sorry if you got that impression) I said: 'Don't get me wrong- I respect the fact that this place is a community of sorts thru which people share their feelings, ideas, and writing- ' 'but that's a whole 'nother can of worms, because I realize that some people have close relationships online and are much more attached to this forum that I am... and I can respect that. ' I wonder how much you respect that cause in the same reply you wrote the following line: But I can guarantee that if I am around long enough to hit the 500 or 1000 post mark and a bunch of people I have never spoken to tell me how wonderful it is to have me around, I will lose a great deal of respect for them. The whole thing just seems very trite, cheap, and insincere, like a simple "GREAT JOB!" reply to a poem. That, once again, is a different topic, but I feel that it has relevance. I really wonder... 'once again, I am not attacking people with large post numbers, but simply the fact that these people may have honestly contributed something very special, and all they are getting recognition for is the quantity of contribution rather than quality.' How do you know that's all they are getting, you judged only on the gratulationthreads, you maybe took a quick look at 'Open' and saw some, as you call them 'trite, cheap, and insincere, like a simple "GREAT JOB!' replies, you probably never stumbled upon the supporting, strait from the heart replies, never thought of private emails going forth and back if needed. Also, you said: 'wich means that the one that's bothered by something others do, that one should take a look deepdown and ask themselves: Why?' I believe I have done that, but let me be brutally honest with you and myself. I am half irritated to see so many presumably intelligent people delighting in their frolics in internet-land, and half-amused, especially by your bit of philosophy within your very heated response. If you would have been better off reading poetry, why aren't you doing just that? Because you are obviously bothered by what I have to say. So maybe you should take your own advice and figure out why what I have to say has everyone replying- I must be making a pretty good point to have all these responses in such a short time. Yes it would be smarter for me to go back to 'Open' and so I will maybe, but that should be my own choise. Yes, I am a bit bothered by what you are saying. Yes, I have figured out why everyone is replying to what you have to say: cause they all (but one) disagree with you some way or other. No I don't think that because you're getting all those answers in such a short time is making you point pretty good. I recall on one of your replies before you said you just threw this question up because you had nothing else to do at that moment and to see what reactions you would get. Well, you've got plenty I'd say, so you must be satisfied quite a bit. But I myself, find no pleasure in rereading this thread. You got what you were aiming for, serious answers, now let it be and let me enjoy my WOW GREAT  BEAUTIFUL  for I'm really getting homesick for the smilies.Titia A rose is a rose is a rose...I guess... Feel free to use the pictures on my website. http://communities.msn.com/Titiasplace&naventryid=100 [This message has been edited by Titia Geertman (edited 07-11-2001).] |
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inot2B Member Elite
since 2000-09-18
Posts 2205Arkansas |
If it bothers anyone about numbers being put up showing how many posts, just don't look at them. I am here mostly to read and yes congratulate if I wish. Don't care how many posts you have. I refuse to argue over how this forum is set up. Ron invited us in and I think we should just enjoy. |
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Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA |
You know, I had this really cool reply all set to go in response to this post. . . but. . . I’m just going to say a few thousand different words. Here’s why (in my opinion) we congratulate one another on getting to new levels, and on Anniversaries and on other “frivolous” things like that. We do it because we care. When I started here, if you would have told me that I’d be a part of this Community for more than a year, that I would have 10,000 posts, and that I would be named co-Editor of Digital Passions, I would have told you that you were crazy. But yet, here I am, here with these people, these fellow poets of mine; people that I’m proud and honored to call my friends, people that I’ve laughed with, cried with, and shared their highs and lows with. Why? Because we care. Why do we have the numbers? Why does it matter? Does it really matter in the end whether I have 10,000 posts or 10? No!!! What matters is that I’m a poet. I’m a member of this Community, this “Family of Friends”. And that I will be encouraged, congratulated, and yes, sometimes even berated by my fellow poets and friends. Because they care. Why do we have the titles? It’s a rewards thing (again, my opinion follows). Rewarding those people who have made this place a part of their life. Rewarding them for their loyalty, their help, their encouragement to everyone that’s here, (and let me tell you, some of us take that “encouraging poets” thing to heart) their very presence in these Forums. And again, does it matter what my title is?? NO!! What matters is that I’m here, and that you’re here, and that they’re here, and that all of us together make this place what it is. Because we care. So, do we really take the numbers seriously? No. Do we take our titles to heart? (I’ve got to admit, it’s a little cool being a Member Patricius, one of only a couple. But, I didn’t drive to 10,000 just to get the title.) No. One more thing: Do we have to over analyze this?? Is there really a reason to cast this into the light of intellectualism?? Exploring why we use numbers?? What would you have us use? Stars? Sticks? Little smiley faces for every 1,000 posts?? We use numbers because we use numbers. That might just be a little too simple of an answer, but it’s one that makes the most sense. Okay, I’m done. Thank you all for your time, and now, let’s return you to your regular reading and responding to poetry. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world. |
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brian madden Member Elite
since 2000-05-06
Posts 4374ireland |
Hush......very interesting point. I think this could lead to a whole other serious of debates. Within all communities there are groups. I think alot of things have to do with the time and effort put by a person into the site. People who have been at the site awhile will tend to be the focus of accouncements they are part of the backbone of this site. I think especially for new members it is hard to get attention due to the pace at which many forums move. People tend to look towards names in terms of poetry, not everyone has the time to sort through poems and pick out the deep and meaningful poems and replies. Not everyone likes poetry that confronts and provokes some prefer more gentler poetry. I don't even know if I am joining this debate or just ranting but Hush I appreciate the time you put into your replies in Crit Forum. It is a fourm that needs people who can give insight. After all we are here to write poetry and learn from each other, but even in paradise nothing perfect. People have their own agendas ( i don't mean this as a bad thing, it is just every one takes something different out of the site.) "Here I am in prison,here I am with a ball and chain There is whiskey in the jar-o" Traditional irish song. |
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Janet Marie Member Laureate
since 2000-01-22
Posts 18554 |
I cant believe that a random act of kindness is being so over analized and made to look Politically InCorrect. Its the Announcement Forum...thats the kind of posts one should expect to find there... and as so many here have tried to say.. Its NOT about the numbers... its about RETURNING THE RESPECT GIVEN No one should have to explain or justify saying thank you. Feels like Im dancing with truth and wisdom |
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Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA |
There are times that I wish I had Jan's gift for brevity. . . this is one of them. . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world. |
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Marge Tindal
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
quote: Well ... that's pretty obvious ! And if there were such a word as ludicrosity- I might even join in the laughter ! As it is ... we do it because we recognize that 8 million times a heart cared enough to reach out and touch others. That's a whole lotta heart ! ! AND because WE think that matters ! Stick around ... we'll grow on you ! ~*Marge*~ ~*The pen of the poet never runs out of ink, as long as we breathe.*~ |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Guys, I thought Nan had a great idea and a solution to this problem. Why isn't that being addressed? Should we intellectualize this? Yeah, I'd say we have to. I honestly believe many people are missing the point. And then someone else says, "No, you're missing the point." And so on and so forth. It is not about saying, 'thank you' and/or 'congratulations'. It's about seeing the number of posts as a determining factor for contribution (although Ron's point is, I think, valid in that it's not the only way to show gratitude -- nevertheless, it has become a kind of ritual. I've noticed it, Hush has noticed it, and others as well.). Simply put, it makes people who have different goals than you feel 'left out' of the game. Now, I immediately want to say, "That's not true. I think the game is silly." I suspect that Hush would say, "No, I don't care." But neither of these statements is quite true. In the back of my head, in the back of others's heads (I don't know about Hush)is a sense that, "Hell, I can get recognized for that if I posted 'Good job' on every post." Is this feeling wrong? Should we not feel it? Should we simply not read the numbers and the congratulations? Should we stop reading? Should we stop conversation if it bothers us? Believe it or not, I can understand why some people think this complaint is ridiculous. What I'm not sure of is whether many of the above commenters (some exceptions of course) have even tried to understand why this might, just might, be a problem? Brad PS Suthern, you make an interesting and, to some extent valid, point but I'd prefer to put that off for another thread. I always find it interesting that the 'heart' crowd is so easily offended when criticized but doesn't hesitate to criticize the 'detail freaks' for their, what was the word, ludicrosity. Marge, didn't we have that discussion before? |
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Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA |
quote: Who sees it this way?? I don't. . . and I'm sure that a lot of other people don't either. . . quote: Wrong. . . absolutely, totally. . .wrong. . . when we congratulate someone, it's not because they've reached a mark, it's because they've taken the time to be here, they've taken the time to read, to encourage, to help out. . . and, being the people that we are, we like to acknowledge these at times like when the counter reaches a new set of zeroes. quote: Indeed. . . quote: Then, in my opinion, you would be in the minority. . .becuase I can prove to you that probably very few of the people here notice the numbers right away. EXAMPLE: Marge Tindal just put up her 18,000th post. Now, who noticed that it was 18,000th?? Well, if you go back and look at the thread, you'll see that 10 members didn't say a word about it. And that Lady in White did, but only after the fact, (and, probably because of this discussion, as did I.) Why didn't they say anything?? Well, more than likely, it's becuase they didn't notice. . . does this make them bad becuase they didn't congratulate Marge? Probably not, but, once they see that that was her 18,000th post, they will probably go to see in Announcements if someone else has taken the time to announce that, and post their congratulations there. quote: Well, to speak it again. . . They're not. . . no one has said that they're important. . . but, being people, we like to know just what we're doing. . . where we are. . . not in relation to everyone else, but just for our own information and amusement. . . quote: And what type of poster would that be?? The kind that just posts to get numbers?? Personally, that's not me. . . sure, I have a lot of posts, but, I don't do it to get the numbers. . . I do it because I like to do it. . . I post becuase I like to interact. . . that's why we're here. . . to post poetry, to have fun, and to interact with other poets from around the world. . . quote: Thank goodness. . . this is what I'm talking about when I'm talking about intellectualizing things. . . what do any of these things have to do with the Celebration of postings????? Nothing. . . not one single solitary thing. . . quote: I believe that we do that (and are doing that as well). . . and yes, I'll agree with the fact that number of posts isn't the same as longevity, but. . . does someone who has a lot of posts in a short time contribute any less than someone who has a lot of time here and not as many posts??? (I may have just agreed with Brad in a way with that comment. . .but, that's just me. . . I tend to see too many sides at once. . . ) Ok. . . next round!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world. |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
I have two minutes: Brad and Hush - a question: You are both obviously well acquainted with social theory, so you both obviously know that surely 'ritual' within any community is unavoidable, and usually essential to the running of the community. Seriously then - why should passions be any different? K |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
"does someone who has a lot of posts in a short time contribute any less than someone who has a lot of time here and not as many posts???" This is the crux, isn't it? Again, I ask that you, Sven, and everybody else try to understand why it would bother some of us. Again, if the numbers don't matter, if the feeling is what counts, what is wrong with at least trying to understand our point? Brad |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Severn, Yes, I agree. Ritual is essential for any community. I don't understand how understanding this in general in any way justifies this specific practice though. Are we really asking for that much? Are we really challenging that much? Brad PS Severn, I'm curious if you saw any connection beteen my 'over-intellectualized' future analysis and what's happening here? I may be barking up the wrong tree (nobody's perfect)but there are connections to my mind. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I haven't heard anyone ask for anything beyond an explanation… |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Fair enough. I simply meant considering why other members might be annoyed by the emphasis on numbers (I know, I know, it's not the numbers). Following that, at least considering Nan's idea of duration celebration rather than a numbers celebration (I know, I know, it's not the numbers). Brad |
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Poeminister Senior Member
since 2000-02-26
Posts 1862Regina SK; Canada |
"Isn't it quality that matters over quantity?" When we celebrate quantity it's unto the quality therein, not saying you are a good participator in a number race. People playing race, will get no more regard then they give, cursorily. [This message has been edited by Poeminister (edited 07-11-2001).] |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Phew. Here goes. Ron: 'My point was that there is absolutely no difference between the three.' but then, earlier you said: 'Of course, the analogy between special dates (which are also frequently celebrated in the forums) and number of posts is less than perfect. You can't rush Valentine's Day and it's hard to have more birthdays than your neighbor.' There you have it. Using my logic (and yours, if you go by your earlier post) a birthday is a special occasion, because it is once a year. It is celebreating an event, and it cannot be rushed. Kit: Let me offer an honest thank you for noticing the hard work I (and others) put into critique. I sincerely appreciate the time you put into explaining why you think that is important. suthern: You're right. I shouldn't have said "GREAT JOB!" replies are insincere- really, I didn't, I think the post congratulations are, and they remind me of those posts. 'To question someone's sincerity when they've GIVEN your poem their time...' I agree with that too. Maybe insincerity was the wrong word? But I'm not going to get into that- as Brad said, it's a thread on its own. Titia: I respect the fact that people make friends using this network. I would not respect people who called me their friend, or gave me a big cyber-clap on the back, when I do not even know them. Maybe I differ from all of you in that I am selective as to who I give my affections to (especially on the internet, since I am usually busy focusing my limited time on poetry, literature, and art, not on making friends)- and to me, when people give affection freely, it's not a big step for them to take it back, especially in a setting such as the internet where it's very easy to drop people. On a side note, I am satisfied. I am thoroughly enjoying this debate for what it is- a debate. My feelings aren't involved. If yours are, if I've offended you, I'm sorry, but no one has a gun to your head forcing you to read this. If it bugs you so much, then don't read it. I'm not violating any forum rules- I'm not attacking anyone or using vulgarity. I will let the subject rest when there are no more points to address, but since I logged on last night, the post has doubled in size- I still have plenty to discuss. Janet: The fact remains that this show of respect is focused on the numbers- it's really self-defeating to say it's not, when the proof is right in the announcements forum- if the focus were not on the numbers, the numbers would not be the focus of the thread titles and topics themselves. Marge: Thanks! I'm glad it's obvious that I don't get it- making a post about the matter, I sure didn't want the entire backbone of my topic to be disregarded! Also, I'll take your off-topic grammatical nit-pick into consideration the next time I write a college essay. And by the way, you're right! It's easy to see how caring people are when they are kind enough to reach out with their hearts to point out insignifigant mistakes! Brad: '"Hell, I can get recognized for that if I posted 'Good job' on every post."' Yes, I think that's a bad feeling- but the thing is, that most here in defense of the congratulatory system would deny that that feeling exists. Sven: 'Who sees it this way?? ' Well... if people didn't see it that way, why would the posts in question even exist? 'Then, in my opinion, you would be in the minority. . ' Am I in the minority because my eyes flick to the left? I like to know whose reply I am reading- it just so happens that even if I don't look to check post number, the size of that number is slightly visible- in a sense, the numbers are unavoidable when displayed in such an obvious place- what happened to just having posts in the member profile? What was wrong with that? I think the sheer accessability of the post number says volumes for the importance placed on them... but nobody addressed that point when I made it earlier? It seems like it's easier for people to keep saying the same thing ("NUMBERS DON'T MATTER!!") when faced with something that might actually challenge their point of view. Points of view become dangerous when people are afraid to change them, but that is another topic that deserves its own post. 'no one has said that they're important. . . ' Yesshuh. Ron did. quote: Severn: I agree with Brad. The fact that rituals (both personal and societal) are an intregal part of human nature does not explain why certain rituals arise- Now, some people, on their 21st birthday, participate in a 21-shot ritual. Does the fact that it is a ritual make it acceptable? No. And it certainly isn't necessary. Just a side note: There are people repeating themselves and avoiding (or not noticing, whatever the case may be) issues. It's stupid to keep saying it's not the numbers without A.) giving reasons why, besides your own personal feelings (Sven, thanks for your example, you are an exception) or B.) addressing any other arguments contained in this thread. If you really are convinced that numbers aren't the issue, or that there is no problem with the posts, then it shouldn't be that hard to provide convincing arguments and counter-arguments for your side of the matter. everything's fine. |
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Titia Geertman Member Ascendant
since 2001-05-07
Posts 5182Netherlands |
I'll change my answer, because somehow I overlooked the reply above. I'm sorry for that. I respect the fact that people make friends using this network. I would not respect people who called me their friend, or gave me a big cyber-clap on the back, when I do not even know them. Maybe I differ from all of you in that I am selective as to who I give my affections to (especially on the internet, since I am usually busy focusing my limited time on poetry, literature, and art, not on making friends)- and to me, when people give affection freely, it's not a big step for them to take it back, especially in a setting such as the internet where it's very easy to drop people. I'm not planning to argue on ones personality, but I felt being personally offended when you spoke about insincere, silly and so on, as you did before. If I had made a statement here that I thought analizing was a dull business (mind you I don't) you would've felt the same way I guess. But that would be another debate. On a side note, I am satisfied. I am thoroughly enjoying this debate for what it is- a debate. My feelings aren't involved. If yours are, if I've offended you, I'm sorry, but no one has a gun to your head forcing you to read this. If it bugs you so much, then don't read it. I'm not violating any forum rules- I'm not attacking anyone or using vulgarity. I will let the subject rest when there are no more points to address, but since I logged on last night, the post has doubled in size- I still have plenty to discuss. This shows our differences, cause I never can shut out my feelings and debate, just for the debate itself, but I won't argue on this either because one is what one, but I'm convinced no one can shut out feelings, not even you, cause they show throughout this thread. The issue here is if I'm right: wether one should be congratulated on their number of posts. Your arguement was: that they shouldn't, because you thought they were silly, unsincere, not intelligent, waste of time and competative (feelings?). My arguement is: one is free to do so, because: Silly? well I think that's an opinion, not an arguement. One needs silliness once in a while. Unsincere? No Way!!! not one of them. If one's unsincere they wouldn't bother to submit a reply. Not intelligent? Who says? Sometimes a little says more than a thousand words, because you know who gave it to you.Waste of time? Who is to tell. My husband thinks it's a waste of time when I go fishing for a whole day. Just because he doesn't like to fish, does that make his thinking right? Competative? It's only competative to those who like to or want to or feel they must compete. There's no sign up at Passions that says "this is a competative site so speed up your posts and get as many as you can". I'm not a competative person so numbers of posts don't arouse a competative feeling in me. I'm not a jealous person too, so it doesn't bother me that Marge has posted 18.000. Say 8000 originals, that leaves about 10.000 replies, that means she must have read a lot more, for not every poem is replied to by everyone. Sometimes they just don't tickle your heart. And that, I think is the main difference between a forum like 'Open' and a forum like 'Critics' and thank Ron for having been so intelligent to recognize those differences in people in giving each one of them the oppertunity to 'be their selfs'. For I, I couldn't care less if my poem is technical not right, but I do care if what I want to express in it, is reaching people. That doesn't mean I think less of people who want their poems technical analized, why should I. And 'Announcements'? Well that's just a forum to put everything in what you want to get out of your system, whether it's a congrat to somebody's number of posts, or sharing a nice link you've seen and maybe a just say hello to someone unknown somewhere in this world, just for the fun of it. Well that's my honest opinion on the matter and I really rest my case here, for I really am not a debating person, but a writing person. _________________________________ Severn, no offense taken, you were right, my fault, didn't look carefull enough to the replies. Titia  A rose is a rose is a rose...I guess... Feel free to use the pictures on my website. http://communities.msn.com/Titiasplace&naventryid=100 [This message has been edited by Titia Geertman (edited 07-12-2001).] |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Ok...I'll try to explain what I meant as I realise that my ever-so-brief question before didn't encapsulate my intent. - how unusual.Ok...bear with me - head not working right, if my second attempt at making sense fails - oh well - cope. ~smile~ Ritual. I just seized on something Brad had said earlier. I guess then that my inquiry revolved around the inevitability of ritual. I'll go out on a limb here: It's my personal opinion that the both of you (B and H) are caught up right now in the eager anticipation of someone here actually justifying the existence of these delightful little numbers to the left of our posts heh heh. Perhaps to the extent that you automatically searched for such an association in my question? There wasn't any. I just merely went off on a tangent and asked a silly little question about the inevitability of ritual. It wasn't a justification. Or a search to claim that the posts are 'acceptable.' Did it read as such? Sorry if so...really - I just meant - are you surprised that these congratulatory posts exist? I'm not. No matter how we analyse them - the fact remains they work well in forming the sense of community. That's it. That's all I meant. I'm saying they work well FULLY aware of all the pitfalls and exclusions they present - don't need to mention them cause they're all mentioned above. Sorry - K and her tangents... Anywho, as for justification - I don't actually know why we have the numbers. I'm going to sound really conformist and weak here - they were just here when I got here lol... They've come to represent things to me though - like what I said (eons ago heh) at the start of this thread. HOWEVER, I was remiss in that. I'm aware my words made it sound as if I was supporting quantity. I'm not - please don't associate me too often with blanket statements - I hate the things, though I'm sure I can make them. Sometimes I see things from too many angles and have to pare it down to save my sanity. I neglected to mention that large numbers of posts doesn't mean other members with less posts fail to put in energy, effort and a love of this place...I merely acknowledged that the posts DO recognise those with large amount of posts who have done those things...this however doesn't account for the non-recognition that members with less posts generally get... Like the people in CA as Kit pointed out (cheers Kitty Kat) who write reams of close analysis and thoughtful insight on a person's effort. That's certainly effort and energy etc - it's my hope that most people recognise this. And it's my hope that the announcements (even once they have been analysed to pieces - why not, analysying is fun) can be taken somewhat lightly - ie, not reading them as 'gee that person's so much better than anyone else and belongs here more legitimately than those with ~gasp~ only 387 posts! Sheesh..what about those with less than 200! Oh they should just get OUT! NO NEW MEMBERS!!!!!! EVER!!!!!!! Unless they already have 500 posts!' Ooops sorry - that was my fictious hysterical passions persona (The Severny One)...she just needs some air... hehe. Oh Nan and Brad - there are announcement posts for time are there not? I've seen them...BUT - what if a person went away for a year and came back? JUST to use an extreme, pain in the proverbial example. THAT is when quantity features just a little (yes, I'm ignoring quality here ON PURPOSE). Sheesh - this is a 'trap' debate heh. I have ten thousand more things to say...to elaborate...to close in the wide open spaces I've left heh...but I am now officially LATE so I have to close... Titia - hon...I can tell you now Hush isn't being personal...have a hug and relax if you can...((((Titia)))) (Oh and just for the record Hush - I adore made/making up words, and personally - I think ludicrosity is sheer brilliance. Making up words requires talent).I am a refugee of logic...insisting on unlikely land with every step. [This message has been edited by Severn (edited 07-12-2001).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
"what if a person went away for a year and came back?" Wouldn't you then celebrate their return? That's what I meant when I thought most of the potential problems seem to disappear. Oh, and, Severn, thanks for saying analysing is fun. I think so too (silly, frivolous). I also think it opens doors to paths that haven't been thought before (important, serious). Brad PS Hush -- Never leave!!!!! |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
*K the now horrendously late to the point of 'why bother going out now?' sneaks back in* Brad - not if they were absolute hell raisers (specially in CA) - the kind who are just shy of banning - you wouldn't heh... ~doing the James Brown in triumph~  KI am a refugee of logic...insisting on unlikely land with every step. [This message has been edited by Severn (edited 07-12-2001).] |
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Janet Marie Member Laureate
since 2000-01-22
Posts 18554 |
quote: And the same thing goes for the threads in Announcements...you dont have to click on them and read them either. But why cant their right to existance be accepted just like this thread and those who wish to enjoy them be allowed to do so without their actions being judged as "silly" and "dumb" such a "waste of time" and its all so "trite and insincere" and "ludicrosity" Most of us have always seemed to understand... those threads are simply just another way of saying thank you, we're glad youre here..and are an extension of the respectful atmosphere that Ron and the moderators have worked so hard to create here..so that ALL feel welcome and encouraged to participate. |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
All righty then... quote: I fail to see why focusing a response to this or any issue upon one's own personal feelings correlates to intelligence levels... Sorry - I just don't see it.. It doesn't "feel" right...  quote: Were I to opt for an argument, it would indeed to be quite simple. quote: Besides - All the points are so eloquently expressed already, why be redundant?...Oh - That's been said already too, hasn't it?... |
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Miss Behavin' Member
since 1999-06-16
Posts 84 |
Thank you so much, suthern...humble bow  |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Titia: I said I was sorry if your feelings got involved in this debtae- I am not judging your or your silliness, and I never said anything about anyone here lacking intelligence. I'm not attacking you, but if this debate has made you feel attacked, maybe you really should take a look at that- I'm not saying that to be rude- but if congratulatory posts are really that near and dear to your heart that you feel personally attacked when I question them, maybe you should re-evaluate what's important? Severn: 'No matter how we analyse them - the fact remains they work well in forming the sense of community.' And that is exactly where my point is coming from. Yes, in a sense it can create a fun environment, but in another, doesn't it create an exclusive clique that some people (who may not have grown beyond high school popularity contests- hell, who might even still be in high school) might feel left out of? And yes, analyzing is fun- I think that's where some people have me wrong- I'm not over here getting into an angry huff, I'm over here saying "Yes!" when someone actually gives me a point to argue or that makes me think about my own position on the subject. LOL, and regarding ludicrosity- I wasn't even aware that I had made the word up until Marge was kind enough to tell me- but now that I know, I can chalk it up to artistic integrity- my debate, my art, my word. Brad: Hmm... I dunno- after this, my name might be too tarnished, and my post count isn't high enough to redeem me... I might feel a little too ostracized to stay... but then again, Poet DeVine kindly (and I'm sure, sincerely) congratulated me on 100 posts, so I'm on my way, right? lol. Janet: You're right. Nobody forces me to go into the Announcements forum. However, I don't reply to those posts asking their authors to 'let it be'. I am asking for an explanation- if Titia had asked for some kind of an explanation I would have gladly provided it (even though i think I've already explained my motives in questioning the practice). But instead of questioning, she asked me to 'let it be', which I found a little rude of her. I have every right to speak my opinion on the subject of congratulating on post numbers- just as much right as people have to post about how much they are posting. 'so that ALL feel welcome and encouraged to participate.' That there is exactly my point. If I were not of such an audacious nature, I would probably feel intimidated by the big post numbers and the big happy groups formed by those people. There are probably plenty of people here who, if they questioned this practice the way I did, mght get hurt feelings over Member Laureate Marge's nitpicks (witty attempts to emberrass me? I'm not really sure where it came- but in my opinion, it seems like maybe without a good solid argument, she reverted to snide comments?) or Administrator/Member Laureate Poet DeVine's congratulations to me (in a post I put in Q&A about HTML) which didn't seem in the least bit sincere to me (in fact, maybe there was a hint of sarcasm? Now I KNOW I'll get crucified for suggesting that one- we all know Admins/mods are inclusive of EVERYONE, right?), in light of the uproar over this topic in the last couple of days. How many new members either A) left because they didn't feel included or B) went into hypoer-post mode so they could feel included? Obviously, we won't know, because you can't talk to people who are gone, and nobody's going to admit to posting more to get higher numbers (but I'm willing to bet more people do it than anyone in here defending the numbers would like to imagine.) Nan: 'I fail to see why focusing a response to this or any issue upon one's own personal feelings correlates to intelligence levels... Sorry - I just don't see it.. It doesn't "feel" right... ' Once again, I never questioned intelligence levels. I'm just saying that if you are participating in an argument, it is presumed that you want to win that argument. A bunch of people repreating themselves is not a good way to do that. everything's fine. |
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Janet Marie Member Laureate
since 2000-01-22
Posts 18554 |
I noticed that when you replied to my comment you didnt address my question about all the rude and judgemental adjectives you have used on this thread...including "stupid"... and yet you point out when you felt others have done this to you. You cant have it both ways... you cant judge people and call them names... and judge how they spend their time as "silly" or tell them they need to "re-evaluate whats important" and then say its not personal.... and as Nan and others have asked... Who are you to tell us what we should think "silly" or a "waste of time"??? But in the light of your last post... suddenly things become clearer....and this is becoming more personal by the minute as you name people and bring up things that happened on other threads that have nothing to do with this thread... its becoming obvious there are issues and perhaps grudges here other than some friendly congrats and thank you threads in Announcements.... SO thanks but no thanks.... Its not a debate or intelligent arguement when its about "winning" rather than solving the problem... So--Im out....I wont participate when its about words becoming weapons...no one will "win" that arguement...and people will only get hurt..so whats the point then? I guess that makes me part of the "heart" crowd...and hey...thats a "label" I can live with..I been called worse.. Im going to use my time to replying to poetry and offering positive encouragement. That after all IS the reason I am here... for the poetry...Not to win a popularity contest as some seem to think us heavy posters and long time members must be. PEACE poets.... my love and respect to poetry land. See ya in the poetry forums. Feels like Im dancing with truth and wisdom |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
Hush... Understand this... ... ANYONE who expresses themselves appropriately, politely, sincerely, and respectfully is emphatically welcome on these forums. We need not agree to be able to partake in productive discussion. We need only be civil and respect each other... You, hush, are as welcome as the rest...I look forward to seeing some of your work posted in the poetry/prose forums, as it seems to me that one who puts this much thought into formulating their opinions must do the same in their writings... Just have fun and play nicely... BTW - Have I neglected to formally welcome you to Passions? WELCOME ABOARD, HUSH... |
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Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA |
quote: Perhaps you are, for myself, my eyes don’t flick to the left every time I bring up a new post. But, I might be wrong about anyone else, so, I leave that to them. The numbers are in an obvious place?? Well, perhaps, but who has time to notice the tiny font that they’re in. If they were really that important, they would be bigger, not just accessible, don’t you think?? Just because I can see them, doesn’t mean that I feel that they’re important. Or rather, just because I can see them, doesn’t mean that I feel that they’re as important as YOU think that I feel that they are. The numbers don’t matter. Ok, well, how about this? The numbers don’t matter to me. Is that a better way to say it?? It would appear, quite obviously, that the numbers matter to you my friend. May I ask why? Why does the fact that you can see how many posts that I have bother you so much? Do you think that it bothered any of our newer members? Do you think that it bothers our very new members?? Well, let’s ask them. Hello New Members!!! If seeing the huge numbers of posts that some of us (myself included) have intimidated you in any way shape or form, please make yourselves known in this thread!! Please be honest, we’d like to know just how you feel or felt when you first came here. Okay, I’m sure that we’ll have some answers very soon. The fact that you ask “what happened to just having posts in the member profile?” might lead one to believe that perhaps you’ve been here before, perhaps when this, if ever, was done. To take Severn’s plea, “They were here when I got here!” And if you have been here before, I’m wondering what it was that made you leave?? Was it this very issue? Or was it something entirely different?? quote: Thank you, you’ve made my day with this one! quote: Only if those that are part of that “clique” take it as such. I’m sure that those of us in the “5 digit” group could be seen as an exclusive group. But, I’ll be the first to tell you that we’re not like that. Every one of us interacts very much with as many poets (both new and old) as we can. We try to make everyone feel welcome. And, not just us, but every member, every poet, in their own way, also contributes to this sense of belonging and welcoming. Because all of us remember that we were new here once too. We were afraid to share our words with the world, we were afraid at what people would think of our words. We know that, and we understand that. Now, I’m not saying that we know exactly what goes through each new members’ mind when they come here, but we do know some of the feelings. quote: You said it yourself, “big happy groups”. Sure, we’ve formed some groups of people that get along with each other. Friendships have been made and cultivated. But, I wouldn’t call them “cliques”. Because a “clique” is exclusive and these groups aren’t. quote: Funny, I’ve never seen them in that light. They’ve always just been Marge and Poet deVine to me. quote: Come on, you know the answer to that one. Don’t even try to start something on that level, stick to the topic. quote: There’s really no way to know this for too many reasons. One of which is that most of the new members don’t stray from Open for at least a couple of weeks. And yes, sometimes, some of them might feel a little out of place in these discussion Forums, but they, like you, have just as much right to say what they feel and to give their opinions. And I’m glad to see that some of them have jumped right in to this discussion. I don’t post more to get higher numbers. You’ll see that it’s taken me a long time to get to 10,000. For myself, I only post one poem a day. Sometimes, I do post more than one, sometimes, I don’t post at all. That’s me. Others do post more than once, that’s up to them. Suggesting that they do this just to get higher numbers however, is pretty unfounded. quote: I don’t want to “win” this argument per se. However, I’d like to try to get you to see and understand that most of us aren’t the “hyper-posters” that you make us out to be. Nor are we the “elitist” types that you make us out to be either. We’re just people. Just poets. And we’re here to share our poetry with our fellow human beings in an atmosphere where we try to cultivate a sense of welcome, a sense of warmth, and a sense of friendship. It’s been that way from the beginning, and we’ll always try as hard as we can to make sure that it stays that way. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Hey Sven.... I'm a hyper-welcomer..... |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Hush, I apologize for my reply in your Q&A post. It really wasn't meant to be sarcastic, it was an attempt at humor (which I see now I should have handled differently). As for my 'titles' ... when it comes right down to it, I'm first and foremost, just a member like you. |
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Titia Geertman Member Ascendant
since 2001-05-07
Posts 5182Netherlands |
You did it again Hush, how many times you may say you appologize, you're attacking in the same breath. _____________________________________________ I said I was sorry if your feelings got involved in this debtae- I am not judging your or your silliness _____________________________________________ quotes I personally feel it's silly to put that much importance on a little file on the internet. because it's just a forum on the internet where people congratulate each other about being active on the internet.... but that's my whole point. It's dumb! It does make people feel good... but about what? Posting a lot? It just seems like a pretty futile way to boost confidence anyway- Those few points that severn copied are the exception- and if people want to say 'Oh! Here's 4,000 kisses for those 4,000 posts!' it's not gonna bother me at night either.... but doesn't anyone ever wonder why they spend time with something so silly? Ron, I am in total agreeance that numbers are numbers and should stay as such- which is precisely why I think it's so stupid to have virtual ticker-tape parades about them _____________________________________________ I never said anything about anyone here lacking intelligence _____________________________________________ quotes I am not concerned about how congratulatory posts relate to me, because I don't use the forum as a friend-making tool. I come here to have interesting and intelligent discussions/debates with people. I know someone's going to ask me why, then, am I attacking the post congratulating practice- and it's for the above reason But, to me, any forums that have those little counters (some that have member classifications- such as jr. member, newbie, etc., that by virtue of the name itself indicate a certain naivete, someone who isn't 'broken in' or doesn't yet have the hang of things...) seem to be saying 'look here'. I am half irritated to see so many presumably intelligent people delighting in their frolics in internet-land, and half-amused, especially by your bit of philosophy within your very heated response. It's stupid to keep saying it's not the numbers without A.) giving reasons why, besides your own personal feelings (Sven, thanks for your example, you are an exception) or B.) addressing any other arguments contained in this thread _____________________________________________ I'm not attacking you, but if this debate has made you feel attacked, maybe you really should take a look at that- I'm not saying that to be rude- but if congratulatory posts are really that near and dear to your heart that you feel personally attacked when I question them, maybe you should re-evaluate what's important? _____________________________________________ This debate? What debate! This is not a debate. In a debate there's a statement and people argue, they listen to each other and argue again. They don't 'yell' and use nasty words as silly, dumb, naive, stupid, trite, insincere, waste of time, they don't question intelligence, they just try to defend their own side with respect for the opponents side. This is no debate, this is a streetfight. Why do I have to take a look at myself, when feeling attacked in this debate. I've come to know myself pretty well in the last 56 years I've been around. As I stated before, if I was to tell here, in general (and mind you, this is just an IF, not my real opinion) that I thought the forum 'critics' sucks, that it's boring, that people are just replying to look interesting…how attacked would you feel by these words 'spoken in general'? Pretty much I guess. So don't say I must look at myself, just because you took a freedom to attack feelings, mine or others, meanwhile saying you're not saying them to be rude. And the last sentence really makes my day. You don't suffer from a slight fragance of modesty, do you. You should really read that line several times over yourself and maybe then you would come to understand why I really do feel offended now. I won't bother to explain it to you, just figure it out yourself. I'm out of here, my real opinion? I don't think this thread is getting anywhere in the end. I don't like to 'debate' just for the sake of debating. Maybe you're feeling good (as you said somewhere)in this thread, I'm happy for you, but I'm not and looking at some of the other replies, I have a feeling I'm not the only one. Sometimes it just takes a little guts to call it quits (or whatever the expression is in English) I looked at your poems, some I like, some I don't, I won't reply on them however, because I don't like analizing, can't help it, I'm just cut out of a different peace of wood I guess. You keep going on in critics, I will in 'open' and maybe someday, we will meet again here at Passions, who knows... Titia A rose is a rose is a rose...I guess... Feel free to use the pictures on my website. http://communities.msn.com/Titiasplace&naventryid=100 [This message has been edited by Titia Geertman (edited 07-12-2001).] |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
Another point... I don't participate in a discussion to 'win' anything.. I participate purely for the purposes of communication... [This message has been edited by Nan (edited 07-12-2001).] |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Well I like to win heh. But who ever wins a debate or argument anyway? No matter the conclusions reached in this thread the announcements will go on. Shrug. Has anyone won? Nope - just that opinions will have been rather thoroughly aired... K |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Janet: I guess I can see where you're coming from in the sense that I've used less-than-polite terms to coin what I feel (not what i think you should feel) is a dumb and possibly (to some people) alienating practice. If I really wanted to, I could have used drier words, but I guess when I started out on this topic, I didn't think I was going to upset so many people and possibly hurt some of their feelings? Tact is not a virtue of mine- You're right- there are issues here- they are issues that I have been bringing up all throughout the thread. As for grudges, I don't bear any of those- I would have had to have made personal connections to bear grudges. Maybe some people would call this debate (or arguement) a personal connection- I don't. So in a way, it boils down to perception, and what one perceives as personal, I guess. And you're right- winning isn't the end result of any intelligent conversation- which means either this has taken a turn, or I was a little too lazy (and by the end of my marathon post, exhausted) to say "making a good solid point to the other side and maybe giving them something to think about" and took the short-cut mono-syllabic way out. My guess is it's a bit of both. To all: If I have personally insulted anyone, please know that it wasn't my intent (unless I felt (perhaps wrongly) personally insulted by that person first- which did result in a couple comments on my part that most definitely could have been handled better). I'm not going to apologize for the points that i have made, because I still believe whole-heartedly in them- but maybe there were things I could have phrased differently? I am sorry that such a relatively inconsequential comment I made on a relatively inconsequential practice created any unneccessary e-hostility, because that's another stupid thing. Sven: Being able to see posts isn't what bothers me- it's simply the indication both by their accessible placement, the congratulatory threads, and the highest poster list (wherever that is) that the numbers are, indeed, more important than anyone wants to admit. Also- I have been to a lot of UBB forums where the number of posts a member had was only visible when you looked at their member profiles- I believe they used to do that here, before the software was updated, but I'm not really sure- because it was a long time ago (if you consider '99 that long ago)... LOL. Regarding any past memberships I may have had or why I would have re-registered- I don't really see how that has any relevance here? But as a relatively young person, I go through different phases during which I might write completely differently and have a completely different outlook- and as one online posting name becomes obsolete at any number of forums I post at, I simply re-register under a new one (although it seems that this current nick-name might be innaproriate for me? Or if I paid more attention to myself, I might learn a thing or two- like shutting the (expletive) up when it's time to do so...lol.) It has nothing to do with post numbers or grudges or anything else. And yeah, you're right, I went off-topic and personal with my side comments. I'll keep those to myself from now on. DeVine: And I apologize for being irritable and taking something minor too seriously. I can imagine the eye-rolling I got for that one... Titia: I agree that while this may have started as (what I hoped to be) a debate, it has regressed from such into what you call a streetfight- and no, that's not good, or right, or productive in any way. So Yes, I do see where people come from when they are saying i have crossed personal boundaries (and I have)- I don't have a knack for objectivity, and I do have a bent towards impulsiveness- So the transition from debate to argument maybe wasn't quite as apparent to me? So yes, I can see where you are offended. Yeah, I was feeling good about this post, because people were making good points, and I felt I was making good points back. Am I happy about the way it's gone in the third page? No, not at all... I guess I learned a lesson in this too? Not to question personal practices because the debate will eventually turn personal, and in the end, it's just a facet of human nature that ends up finding its way into the discussion.... Other than that, I guess I'm done with this, too- I'll stick to dissecting poetry from now on- I piss remarkably less people off that way. everything's fine. |
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wayoutwalt Member Elite
since 1999-06-22
Posts 4870TEXAS (it's all big) |
Wait WAIT WAIT You cant get rid of the number thing I was almost at 4000 and that means 5000 and a new title is around the corner and how am I gonna keep up with my status oh and am I still on the top 50 posters list let me check let me check (agh) (thump) (heart attack!!!!!!!) |
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Temptress
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-06-15
Posts 7136Mobile, AL |
hush, Just what is wrong with this getting to a third page? This is a discussion forum. People getting annoyed or offended in any discussion is inevitable, especially with so many people here. As for snide remarks, I have seen it go on here on these pages when people get annoyed. You can't control that either really, and if it truly doesn't bother you then I would say to let them have their fun. They'll pay for it somewhere along the way, eh? Mind you, I'm not saying I agree that your examples were doing so. There really is nothing you can do but present your points in an effective and non degrading manner (ie not calling ways of communicating or arguing stupid...FOR WHICH YOU HAVE APLOGIZED FOR..so know I'm only making an example and not attacking you). The reaction on here, the number of replies, or the number of pages this whole debate reaches are things you can't really control so why stress yourself over that? |
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JLR Senior Member
since 2001-02-04
Posts 1785 |
Does anyone have an Excedrin? |
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Titia Geertman Member Ascendant
since 2001-05-07
Posts 5182Netherlands |
JLR, would you please be so kind to tell me what a Excedrin is . Did you make that word up for even my Webster is not aware of the existance of such a word, beautiful as it sounds though.Do you mean an Exit-line Or just maybe an Exit-rhyme Are we to close this thread Before we'll debating it dead For debating we were no more Just our feelings did get sore Taking distance sometimes is good Get some pressure of heated mood Is this what I made an Excedrin You say NO????? Then I just settle for a supergrin See ya all around somewhere. Titia A rose is a rose is a rose...I guess... |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
I'm not displeased that this reached a third page, Temptress, but rather that in the third page, the debate became less focused and more of a personal argument. everything's fine. |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
That it did, Hush, but that is the nature of the Alley. It's OK to bring personal feelings here, just don't get bent if others disagree...again, that's the nature of the Alley. It's a place where vents, rants, and the like have a place to breathe, and be heard, and I'm very pleased that you took advantage of this forum. And if this thread, knowing the emotional side issues that would arise, didn't have any emotional issues, I'd be almost inclined to move it to Philosophy or Q/A.  But those places are, more or less, respectable venues of thought, while the Alley is a down and dirty place to be...but as with screamin in an alley, don't get too upset if someone pours dishwater on ya from above. LOL [This message has been edited by Alicat (edited 07-13-2001).] |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
ExcedrinFor you non-Americans... is a super-duper-headache-remover type ASPIRIN... |
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Poeminister Senior Member
since 2000-02-26
Posts 1862Regina SK; Canada |
What else should the numbers be called than just for fun--they are just there, and create a moment to show a celebration to one for their contribution in the forums. Whether some are playing rush, doesn't matter--because we will all be judged based on depth of our poetries, our respects, and comments in these forums, overall--won't we?? And thats why the numbers are important still, in my opinon. Its part of the overall responsiveness at this site, the warmth and ability to celebrate and have fun at the same time--unlike some other poetry sites, that are just strictly workshops, where people can so tend to be cold. Does this give some people more attention then others who are as worthy but have less posts? Yes. In the announcements and Links. But it shouldn't be taken seriously. They are just for Fun. Aren't they? [This message has been edited by Poeminister (edited 07-13-2001).] |
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Titia Geertman Member Ascendant
since 2001-05-07
Posts 5182Netherlands |
Excedrin an Aspirin?Oh Oh, I really messed up back there, didn't I  . Who on earth would have thought of Excedrin being an Aspirin . Thank you Nan for letting us, the foreigners, know.Titia A rose is a rose is a rose...I guess... |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
It's a brand name, Titia...acetylsalicylic acid, aka aspirin (Bayer, Excederin, BC Powder, etc). Then there's acetaminophen, which is your non-aspirin pain reliever, like Tylenol. |
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Jamie Member Elite
since 2000-06-26
Posts 3168Blue Heaven |
...and of course for those really tough headaches there is morphine  There is society where none intrudes, by the deep sea, and music in its roar. |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
UM... My mom says don't listen to Jamie... She just had two major surgeries within two weeks of each other - both with morphine kickers... She was hallucinatory for a full week withdrawing from the second one... Though she does admit to having NO headaches that she can recall... |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
It's a bit of a shame that earnest discussions have to be derailed by off-topic fun, guys. We closed the Alley and moved the frivolity to the Lounge so that serious topics could be taken seriously. There is a time and a place for fun, but interruptions too easily become disruptions and that's neither fun nor fair. Please stay on-topic. |
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Dusk Treader
Moderator
Senior Member
since 1999-06-18
Posts 1187St. Paul, MN |
What a gritty topic this has become. I've never added my thoughts to a thread such as this, but I've always liked to watch a debate (I respect Brad, Jim and the Philosophy 101 crew greatly). Hush seems a little rough, but not out to hurt anyone. Let me say that I respect you now too for bringing up this topic. Not because I think you're right (or wrong). I thought it was one of the most thoughtful threads I've seen out of the Philosophy or Poetry/Prose forum. I'm surprised how Hush was accused of attacking people because of her word choices. "Frivolous," "ludicrosity" and "such a waste of time" were all words/phrases that Hush used to describe an act. Not the people committing the act. I think watching football is stupid. I'm not saying people who watch football are stupid. Is it really possible to use completely inoffensive words to describe Hush's viewpoint, his feeling of why the announcements aren't beneficial? We are each entitled to our own feelings, like Hush, but it is up to us to validate those feelings with logic or reason if they are to be accepted. I'm sorry to see people have been hurt during the course of this discussion, but I think Hush moved in the right direction, if possibly a little too abruptly. I've wanted to add to one a thread such as this for quite a while, and I hope I made an intelligent reply, even though this thread seems caught in a bit of frivolous activity. "They that start by burning books will end by burning men." -- Heinrich Heine |
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JLR Senior Member
since 2001-02-04
Posts 1785 |
Ron---Sorry for starting the disruption. It was honestly not meant to distract from the original topic. It was my attempt to humorously say that having just read this entire thread, I had quite a headache. |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
My apologies as well, my EDF... I'm probably trying too hard to cure my own headaches...  |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
My apologies as well for the frivoloty. Now for the topic at hand. I really don't see what all the fuss is about. If I twitch my eyes to the left, I can see that I've garnered less than 2000 posts (originating and replies) in the 26 months I've been at Passions. Now, what does this mean? It could, and does, show that for over two years, I haven't really replied to much of the plethora of writings here. Also, that I'm not much of a social butterfly. However, if someone else is, should I berate them for being so social and for the love of reading new material? True, the numbers could detract from that, espousing a clique of high posters, with others striving to become exclusive members by replying as much as humanly possible, even to the point of trite replies to pack as many numbers in as short a time as possible. But this is not the norm. Instead, I see the number/ranking system as a playful and fun means of keeping track. I know that if I have a question about form or format, I'm more likely to ask someone with a higher number of posts, solely on the basis that through their many readings, they might have come across the answers I need...either that, or I ask Nan. Also, I get the feeling that someone new being welcomed by Marge, who has an amazing amount of posts and replies, would mean a bit more, based again on the sheer amount of work she has read and enjoyed. I'm not certain if the numbers reflect negatively, but I know the positive aspects. As for Announcements...well...that's what the forum is for. Announcements. The very name says it all. Yes, it's changed from what it was originally intended for, like Feelings, but that's just the nature of a dynamic, living forum: Change. It's for html links, personal life, and forum life. There's wedding announcements, death notices, births, new pages, virus warnings, cool programs, birthdays, and pats on the back for time spent uplifting others. Any announcement, from the depressing to the banal would fit in Announcement. Just like any other thread, if you don't want to read it, don't...that's your choice. If all this is a problem, or something one sees as either distracting or detracting, perhaps something could be done, like a member option akin to posts per page, allowing for posting numbers and titles, or not. Just a little flag to be marked as a yes or no in the Member's Area, although I'm not sure how much work this would take on Ron's part. I, for one, like the titles. Whenever I see a new one, or someone reaching a new 'level', I can't help but smile. And Hush, that's the only thing that matters. “It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most |
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Titia Geertman Member Ascendant
since 2001-05-07
Posts 5182Netherlands |
Dusk Treader: I don't quite agree with you on the below quote. ____________________________________________ I think watching football is stupid. I'm not saying people who watch football are stupid. ____________________________________________ What you're saying here is that you think watching football is an act of stupidity. It implies a waste of time. Am I right? Can you explain to me why you think that statement doesn't offend people?. For I think it does, because you can't disconnect one from the other. It would be different if you should say: I don't like watching football, then it's just you in relation to football you're talking about. But when you say: watching football is stupid, you're saying that 'the watching' is stupid = the act, and therefore you're condemning the act being performed. As the act is being performed by people so you're condemning people and yes, some would feel offended. Then there's the fact that written words often are hard to read. The reader misses the tone of the voice behind so he puts his own voicetone in and that may be quite a different one than the writer had ment. For instance, I make a statement here: "I think watching debates is stupid". Does reading this make you not feel slightly uncomfortable, as you like to perform this act. And here I am, saying that I think it's stupid what you do (watching debates). Isn't there a bit of a 'feeling offended' popping up in your mind? Don't you feel an urge to ask me "who the hell I think I am to think I can judge your actions?". Hush could have simply started to ask why those thankyounotes for reaching a higher level of posts were put in and what their meaning was. In that case I think the answers would have had a different tone and the debate would have started on a more friendlier base. But the mere act was being referred to immediately as 'being stupid, waste of time' and so on. And so my neckhairs went tickling a bit, couldn't help it. Ohh it's already late again, me babbling on and on, hope I did make some sense here. This all was ment in a friendly way. ____________________________________________________ Alicat, that's just how I feel, your meaning is well written. ____________________________________________________ Ron, my apologies too, well to Hush probably. Wasn't ment to be rude, just habbit I guess to answer with a little humor and I really thought an Excedrin was a kind of poetic form  Still have to learn so much about your language. Titia A rose is a rose is a rose...I guess... Feel free to use the pictures on my website. [URL=http://communities.msn.com/Titiasplace=100 ]http://communi [This message has been edited by Titia Geertman (edited 07-14-2001).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Hmmmmm, seems to me that one of my points has been validated -- the one about frivolity and control. Take that Sven!!! But if we take what Sven said about what I said into consideration, if I follow Titia's comments, should I be offended by Sven's comments? Does Sven disrespect me? I doubt it. I'm sure there are many things I've said that he finds silly, frivolous, stupid, inane, unnecessary, incomprehensible, dubious, and downright wrong. But does he disrespect me? I doubt it. One act is never representative of identity as a whole. The part is not the whole if only because we all, we all make mistakes. I don't want to spend too much time on the implications of conflating act and identity (at least for now) but, quite frankly, I find that logic dangerous. But aren't many people saying that worrying about the numbers is stupid, that what they're doing is frivolous, and that that is, or at least should be, okay? Isn't all that really matters, as Alicat matters, is the smile? Shouldn't we be mature about this whole matter? A few years back, I had two friends who eventually ended up romantically involved. We went out for coffee one time, I got up to make a phone call, and returned to see them making out. Now, I consider myself a pretty liberal guy, and immediately thought, "That's okay." However, every time we had a pause in direct conversation, they started doing it again. As liberal as I am, I found it uncomfortable, I felt excluded, uninvited, even unwanted. Did they think that way? I don't think so (they asked me to coffee, didn't they?), I think they let their obvious concerns with each other temporarily overwhelm their concerns with me (perfectly legitimate, they should care more about each other than about me.). And it made them happy. But was it appropriate in a coffee shop? Was it appropriate when I was sitting across the table? Does it matter what they felt? Their feelings were quite obvious, I assure you. Did I want to participate? Both were very attractive, intelligent, and charming but no, I had no interest in participating. Upon voicing my concerns, they stopped, they understood, and we had a good time after that (Honestly, they thought I was a close enough friend that it was 'okay', they later explained; they realized, of course, that that wasn't the issue, it wasn't friendship, it was feeling left out at that moment.). That feeling and the feeling here, the feeling I tried to explain earlier, are quite similar. I can play it superior (take it to a hotel/it's a silly game), I can play it inferior (guys, I'm still here/I'm left out), but the feeling is still the same. Now, you know how I and others feel, it is a feeling easily repressed (I can bring a book to the table but I'm not leaving the table, that's not something I want to do, I like this table and I like the people at this table.) I don't believe in enforcing new Blue Laws. I just ask that others think about it. Make your own decisions from there. Brad PS Many, many other points have been brought up worthy of discussion (value of debates, winning and losing, act and identity, seriousness and frivolity, ritual and passivity, and others). I hope these are focused on with the same energy as this one has and perhaps will continue to be. Thanks [This message has been edited by Brad (edited 07-15-2001).] |
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doreen peri Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812Virginia |
 i just wanted to let you guys know that i recently hit 5,000 posts and also had my 2 year anniversary here and i was one of the very first members here....and not even one person said a damn thing about it so i was mortally offended and cried for 3 days and now i'm going on vacation and i may never ever come back here to post!! so there!! :P hehe.... just kidding *wink* hahahahahahahahahaha |
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Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA |
touche Brad!! quote: and vice versa I'm sure Brad. . . quote: Nope, not one bit. . . I respect you very much Brad. . .I love our little discussions. . .they're what make life fun. And I think that your example speaks volumes. . . thanks for bringing it up. -------------------------------------------------------------------- To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world. |
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Fading Away
since 2001-03-14
Posts 3131Lynchburg, Virginia |
I know how that is, Doreen. I hit 2,000, and no one even noticed! Argh! But I guess I can see where hush is coming from. Although I disagree mostly with what you're saying... anniversaries and posts are accomplishments that deserve to be recognized. --Marie You think yourself a failure, but perhaps the biggest loss is winning... |
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Marge Tindal
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
Doreen~ quote:Not true .... me did ~ /pip/Forum50/HTML/000178.html#2 Me wuv you ! ~*Marge*~ ~*The pen of the poet never runs out of ink, as long as we breathe.*~ |
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doreen peri Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812Virginia |
awww geeezzzzzzzz....... .again.... yeah, marge, i saw that... and thanks so much!! this was all tongueincheek.... my sense of humor leaves something to be desired maybe?? lol... as long as something about me leaves something to be desired, i figure i'm doing ok... *wink* thanks much.. and "fading away"...... do me and you a favor..... DON'T everyone here is very special... i love you all........ |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
sorry...just popped in to grin... not to be frivolous, but just as an observation, it always does seem to get back to caring. Numbers are just a means of measurement only to be given their assumed and agreed upon value, and the values determined only by the interpretor, through the bias of a strictly personal point of view. (sorry, just trying to get Brad's attention) Myself...I like the frivolity.. (obviously) I enjoy the silliness. I like my life cushioned with love. Scoff and call me an idealist--but I will die happier. CONGRATULATIONS DOREEN...and forgive me, for not noticing. You are my girl, and I love you! |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I noticed, I noticed. "not to be frivolous, but just as an observation, it always does seem to get back to caring." --I agree. But it's what we care about that seems to be avoided in many of these comments. "Numbers are just a means of measurement" --not always, I still believe that we all 'feel' a certain mysticism when it comes to numbers (numerology). Why so much emphasis here if it didn't contain something? Why does the media keep a running track of deaths in a natural disaster? It's almost like the score of a football game. If the numbers were just a means, why so much defending? Why so much "Hey, what about me?" phrased as trivial and humorous (for good reason)? In a very real way, I think science actually contributes to this feeling. Don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone actually THINKS this is that important, I do think that most people LIKE the numbers game and don't want to change it even though they don't think it matters. In a way, they're saying it doesn't matter, don't worry about it, because it does matter (in that feeling at the horizon of thought). Why aren't their more responses like Sharon's or Nan's? I don't care about the numbers, drop them. What about changing it to time instead of numbers posted? Aren't people saying don't take it personally because we take it personally? Aren't people saying don't care about it because we care about each other? How does that address the complaint? "only to be given their assumed and agreed upon value," "and the values determined only by the interpretor, through the bias of a strictly personal point of view." --I don't understand these two comments together: 'agreed upon value' 'strictly personal point of view' Could you elaborate it bit more? Thanks, Brad |
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BloomingRose Member Elite
since 2000-08-09
Posts 3092Florida |
I could care less about numbers. I read what I can truly read, and post replies only to the poems I really enjoy or find interesting. I appreciate when others post a reply to the poetry I write, but it's certainly not my focus. I think it's nice to be recognized, but I don't think it's the goal of most. It's the love of reading and writing, and to share with others. Deb |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Nice to meet you Brad! (I wasn't ignoring you but have been away due to personal probs at home.) I simply meant that people have to agree on the importance of the numbers--Here's a question though: Is reality a collective agreement? And if so, does this exclude numbers? Are numbers always an absolute? I have had this discussion with Sharon...one day through some glitch, the number of replies was not showing up on my screen. Which didn't bother me, until I realized that I was unable to discern which poems had gone unread. And I do feel it important to offer encouragement. Which is the only reason I think the numbers should stay. It doesn't bother me one bit if someone is proud of their record of posts and replies. I am more proud when someone lets me know that something I have written has touched them. It makes me feel good. And yes, I was teasing you a bit about my playful attitude and truly had no idea I was working anyone's nerves--I'm still pondering the control issue--after some thought I realized though that my habit of doing that comes from listening to my brothers and sisters fight so much. And a well timed comment can diffuse an uncomfortable situation. And I know I didn't answer your question to your satisfaction, but I wish to think more carefully about my reply, as you still terrify me Brad. But thank you for taking the time--I feel a little less invisable now. Will be in touch as soon as I slap my brain around to compose my explanation. And as for the numbers and the titles...I also agree that participation should be encouraged and celebrated. But conversely, sometimes it shocks me to see how much time I do spend here. But hey...I've had worse habits. More soon. Perhaps you can be of some help to this admittedly sloppy thinker. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I'm terrifying? Actually, you've glossed a lot here. Don't suppose you might throw some of this stuff out for discussion in Philosophy? I'm terrifying? Wish my wife knew that sometimes. Gotta go, the wife calls, Brad PS Anxiously waiting your reply here as well. Also, if possible, I'd like to know if you understand why 'the numbers issue' might be a problem. I'm still waiting for more "I understand your feeling but . . ." not "The numbers don't matter, it's the feeling that matters. Complaining about this is silly". See the irony? [This message has been edited by Brad (edited 07-26-2001).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
not always, I still believe that we all 'feel' a certain mysticism when it comes to numbers (numerology). Why so much emphasis here if it didn't contain something? Why does the media keep a running track of deaths in a natural disaster? It's almost like the score of a football game. If the numbers were just a means, why so much defending? Why so much "Hey, what about me?" phrased as trivial and humorous (for good reason)? In a very real way, I think science actually contributes to this feeling. Would love to hear more about this one too. and by agreed upon value, that ties into my question about reality being collectively agreed upon--and if that statement is true--are numbers an absolute that defies that? As to this particular issue, I feel the numbers are of no consequence...simply because I know many of my post and replies are done in the spirit of FUN...which is what keeps me here at Passion. And I don't understand why someone would worry about the quality of replies unless it is a C/A --are we to start critiquing replies as well?Sometimes it's just enough for me to know that someone read and enjoyed. But I am enjoying this conversation...but I am tired, but would love to hear more of your thoughts on numbers in general...not just as it pertains to this issue. Particularly, I would like to hear your thoughts on numerology. I am not a natural at debate...I am just a naturally curious person interested in PEOPLE. So...let me get some rest before my brain starts slapping me back. And okay, you don't actually terrify me, you just make me feel dumb. |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
K? You dumb? You know...having just read all that I'd hardly call you dumb - nothing wrong with your verbal skills m'dear and Brad's so nothing to be scared of - sheesh...stop giving the man an ego prob k? LOL...keep talking guys - tis interesting..no time to ramble on myself though I'm sure you both know I dearly want to.. K |
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furlong Member
since 2001-04-08
Posts 129 |
quote: /pip/Forum12/HTML/001267.html |
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Jamie Member Elite
since 2000-06-26
Posts 3168Blue Heaven |
I guess Hush won this debate. Or did my 2,000th simply go unnoticed? I am sure it isn't because nobody cares.....heh There is society where none intrudes, by the deep sea, and music in its roar. |
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kaile
since 2000-02-06
Posts 5146singapore |
i don't mean to stir things up but i think both hush and brad had a point this is not going to reflect very well on me but oh well.... i was rather obsessed with numbers when i was still a new member..as a beginning writer, i had this attitude of wanting feedback from the world and i wasn't gathering many replies from my musings...being disheartened and later noticing that older members such as marge and denise would gather lots replies because they spent time reading others and encouraging them with positive comments, i replied because i liked to read and respond but because i wanted very much to boost my post count... the numbers meant a lot to me...it was a way of distinguishing yourself from the rest...other times my works suffered the passionate plummet but whenever i reached a milestione, they stayed on top for a little while longer and i got slightly more comments and i was happy because if i hadn't reached those 1000th, 2000th milestones, i believe i wouldn't have received so much replies, so much attention from the rest of passions... i will like to think that i have matured a little now but to be honest, i am excited about my upcoming 3000th post...only this time, i hope to write something that will be worthy of the attention i know i will get... so yup, i did reply superficially just for the sake of increasing my post count...here's one memeber for you |
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